Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
+1 ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
Seconding the arguments of others arguing *for* a mailing list. On 29.12.2014 22:02, Kevin Cantu wrote: It had gotten pretty clear that having a catch-all mailing list wasn't going to scale. Python also uses mailing lists as the primary communication medium. The main three lists are: python-dev (for developers, discussing the advance of the language), python-ideas (for anyone, suggesting and discussing ideas which the devs might take into account) and python-list (for anyone, discussing about any python-specific issue). Of these, only python-list is *very* high traffic with very diverse topics. python-ideas is also high traffic but only with a few topics going on at a given time. This makes it easy to mentally filter and follow what happens. Same goes for python-dev, but it generally has less traffic than python-ideas. For several topics there exist sublists (e.g. the C++ special interest group), which are generally very low to medium traffic. I cannot see why rust would not be able to follow this approach, too, but instead suggesting people to use $website [1]. *That* is not going to scale, for the individuals. It is trivial to track several projects using a well-configured mailbox or mail client, but polling N websites every M minutes (for varying values of M) is quite cumbersome. I say that having tested the discourse mail interface for a few days now. I find it much harder to read than a well-behaved mailing list. It is basically 100% top-posting without threading. Very uncomfortable to read and follow. But who am I to complain. I am merely interested in a new upcoming language and have not much to contribute. regards, jwi [1]: Not to mention that that website requires unauthentictaed JavaScript from third party servers for log in. ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Jonas Wielicki j.wieli...@sotecware.net wrote: Seconding the arguments of others arguing *for* a mailing list. +1 -Tom ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
+1 for mailing lists. Can't stand discourse myself. On Jan 11, 2015 6:28 PM, Tom Browder tom.brow...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Jonas Wielicki j.wieli...@sotecware.net wrote: Seconding the arguments of others arguing *for* a mailing list. +1 -Tom ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:09 AM, Tony Arcieri basc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Kevin Cantu m...@kevincantu.org wrote: It's easy to set up discuss to email you all the time, too: give it a try. I've set up Discourse this way. As a Gmail user, this is mostly fine as a mailing list replacement, but I can see (as a former mutt user) how mutt users who are used to being able to see the structure of threaded conversations would get annoyed, as Discourse publishes a flat message list. Is this a user setting? ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Bardur Arantsson wrote: On 2014-12-27 19:13, Evan G wrote: A little hyperbolic, considering we're all the same rust community. And as far as I know you can set discourse up to work like a mailing list (i.e. email me for every post, email me even if you've seen me recently, don't batch emails, stuff like that) ... unless you're using GMANE which is one of the few remaining *sane* ways of handling dozens of mailing lists AFAICT. In contrast to mailing lists it doesn't seem feasible to keep up with dozens of online forums since they a) mostly run different software, i.e. usually non-mail-friendly, and b) I cannot get a unified interface to all the forums I would need to if all the mailing lists I'm currently following were to be converted to forums. I fully recognize that this isn't likely to convince anyone who isn't used to the awesome that is GMANE/NNTP, but I just want to point out what a shame it is that we're going ever-closer to siloization of the debate/discussion format (and content!) when we actually have a reasonably good technology to avoid it (NNTP) -- just out of apathy and/or laziness on the part of forum software users *and* vendors/implementers. :( I'm curious, why doesn't rust use Mozilla's NNTP infrastructure? ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
I have no desire to use Discourse, and nearly certainly won't sign up for it (I don't even understand why it came to be). I have never used Rust discourse besides happening once upon it and reading the linked thread. My membership in mailing lists is neatly sorted and segregated, easily readable on my mobile devices without extra signing up or poking at badly designed websites. Discourse gives me zero advantage for yet *another* website signup, and probably with less usability, given my experience of web site development design. It's worth noting that every single libre software project I have any interest in (from the arcane to the popular) maintains the mailing list as the primary official channel of communiques. If the Rust admins kill the mailing list, I will probably drop out of participation (what a loss. ;) ) and limit participation to lurking reddit's /r/rust (I don't contribute thoughtful stuff to reddit in part due to the fact that mobile website = awful, readers = ehhh and occasional IRC questions. I am sure I sound like a crabby crank, but, meh. On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Clark Gaebel cg.wowus...@gmail.com wrote: There was a thread about it on... Discourse! http://discuss.rust-lang.org/t/is-it-time-to-kill-the-mailing-list/611/36 On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Tomi Pieviläinen tomi.pievilai...@iki.fi wrote: The mailing list is mostly dead BTW. Consider bringing this up on discuss.rust-lang.org instead. This is the first time I've heard of that. I checked that it isn't even linked on the homepage, but the mailing list and IRC are. Have I missed something, or should the discourse then be linked instead of or at least in addition of the mailing list? -- Tomi Pieviläinen, +358 400 487 504 A: Because it disrupts the natural way of thinking. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
I agree on almost every word. I have well sorted and with love configured mail, where I track several Libre projects. Now it is interesting to track rust questions. But dropping maillist most probably means I will not participate any more. I could add, as example, I have very limited Internet connection on cristmass trip now so the mail on my mobile is the only reliable way to track what is happening. Think about this reason too. On Dec 29, 2014 7:22 PM, Paul Nathan pnat...@alumni.uidaho.edu wrote: I have no desire to use Discourse, and nearly certainly won't sign up for it (I don't even understand why it came to be). I have never used Rust discourse besides happening once upon it and reading the linked thread. My membership in mailing lists is neatly sorted and segregated, easily readable on my mobile devices without extra signing up or poking at badly designed websites. Discourse gives me zero advantage for yet *another* website signup, and probably with less usability, given my experience of web site development design. It's worth noting that every single libre software project I have any interest in (from the arcane to the popular) maintains the mailing list as the primary official channel of communiques. If the Rust admins kill the mailing list, I will probably drop out of participation (what a loss. ;) ) and limit participation to lurking reddit's /r/rust (I don't contribute thoughtful stuff to reddit in part due to the fact that mobile website = awful, readers = ehhh and occasional IRC questions. I am sure I sound like a crabby crank, but, meh. On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Clark Gaebel cg.wowus...@gmail.com wrote: There was a thread about it on... Discourse! http://discuss.rust-lang.org/t/is-it-time-to-kill-the-mailing-list/611/36 On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Tomi Pieviläinen tomi.pievilai...@iki.fi wrote: The mailing list is mostly dead BTW. Consider bringing this up on discuss.rust-lang.org instead. This is the first time I've heard of that. I checked that it isn't even linked on the homepage, but the mailing list and IRC are. Have I missed something, or should the discourse then be linked instead of or at least in addition of the mailing list? -- Tomi Pieviläinen, +358 400 487 504 A: Because it disrupts the natural way of thinking. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
It's easy to set up discuss to email you all the time, too: give it a try. It had gotten pretty clear that having a catch-all mailing list wasn't going to scale. Kevin On Dec 29, 2014 10:57 AM, Dmitry Romanov romano...@gmail.com wrote: I agree on almost every word. I have well sorted and with love configured mail, where I track several Libre projects. Now it is interesting to track rust questions. But dropping maillist most probably means I will not participate any more. I could add, as example, I have very limited Internet connection on cristmass trip now so the mail on my mobile is the only reliable way to track what is happening. Think about this reason too. On Dec 29, 2014 7:22 PM, Paul Nathan pnat...@alumni.uidaho.edu wrote: I have no desire to use Discourse, and nearly certainly won't sign up for it (I don't even understand why it came to be). I have never used Rust discourse besides happening once upon it and reading the linked thread. My membership in mailing lists is neatly sorted and segregated, easily readable on my mobile devices without extra signing up or poking at badly designed websites. Discourse gives me zero advantage for yet *another* website signup, and probably with less usability, given my experience of web site development design. It's worth noting that every single libre software project I have any interest in (from the arcane to the popular) maintains the mailing list as the primary official channel of communiques. If the Rust admins kill the mailing list, I will probably drop out of participation (what a loss. ;) ) and limit participation to lurking reddit's /r/rust (I don't contribute thoughtful stuff to reddit in part due to the fact that mobile website = awful, readers = ehhh and occasional IRC questions. I am sure I sound like a crabby crank, but, meh. On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Clark Gaebel cg.wowus...@gmail.com wrote: There was a thread about it on... Discourse! http://discuss.rust-lang.org/t/is-it-time-to-kill-the-mailing-list/611/36 On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Tomi Pieviläinen tomi.pievilai...@iki.fi wrote: The mailing list is mostly dead BTW. Consider bringing this up on discuss.rust-lang.org instead. This is the first time I've heard of that. I checked that it isn't even linked on the homepage, but the mailing list and IRC are. Have I missed something, or should the discourse then be linked instead of or at least in addition of the mailing list? -- Tomi Pieviläinen, +358 400 487 504 A: Because it disrupts the natural way of thinking. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
On Mon, 2014-12-29 at 13:02 -0800, Kevin Cantu wrote: It's easy to set up discuss to email you all the time, too: give it a try. That still loses you the thread structure of email discussion. I also can't start threads via the mail interface, and the mail interface regularly eats whole replies by people who are optimistic enough to to use it like nmatsakis. People can also edit their posts to append more information and I don't believe the mail interface would inform me of that. Also the settings page in Discourse invariably says We'll only email you if we haven't seen you in the last 10 minutes and you haven't read the thing we're emailing you about. which doesn't give me much confidence that I'm not somehow missing messages after following links on irc or wherever. It had gotten pretty clear that having a catch-all mailing list wasn't going to scale. It also doesn't scale for people to come to terms with a separate web based discussion forum for each project they keep up with or contribute to. Many projects use multiple mailing lists, it's not clear to me why that doesn't address the rust team's requirements. -ben Kevin On Dec 29, 2014 10:57 AM, Dmitry Romanov romano...@gmail.com wrote: I agree on almost every word. I have well sorted and with love configured mail, where I track several Libre projects. Now it is interesting to track rust questions. But dropping maillist most probably means I will not participate any more. I could add, as example, I have very limited Internet connection on cristmass trip now so the mail on my mobile is the only reliable way to track what is happening. Think about this reason too. On Dec 29, 2014 7:22 PM, Paul Nathan pnat...@alumni.uidaho.edu wrote: I have no desire to use Discourse, and nearly certainly won't sign up for it (I don't even understand why it came to be). I have never used Rust discourse besides happening once upon it and reading the linked thread. My membership in mailing lists is neatly sorted and segregated, easily readable on my mobile devices without extra signing up or poking at badly designed websites. Discourse gives me zero advantage for yet *another* website signup, and probably with less usability, given my experience of web site development design. It's worth noting that every single libre software project I have any interest in (from the arcane to the popular) maintains the mailing list as the primary official channel of communiques. If the Rust admins kill the mailing list, I will probably drop out of participation (what a loss. ;) ) and limit participation to lurking reddit's /r/rust (I don't contribute thoughtful stuff to reddit in part due to the fact that mobile website = awful, readers = ehhh and occasional IRC questions. I am sure I sound like a crabby crank, but, meh. On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Clark Gaebel cg.wowus...@gmail.com wrote: There was a thread about it on... Discourse! http://discuss.rust-lang.org/t/is-it-time-to-kill-the-mailing-list/611/36 On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Tomi Pieviläinen tomi.pievilai...@iki.fi wrote: The mailing list is mostly dead BTW. Consider bringing this up on discuss.rust-lang.org instead. This is the first time I've heard of that. I checked that it isn't even linked on the homepage, but the mailing list and IRC are. Have I missed something, or should the discourse then be linked instead of or at least in addition of the mailing list? -- Tomi Pieviläinen, +358 400 487 504
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Kevin Cantu m...@kevincantu.org wrote: It's easy to set up discuss to email you all the time, too: give it a try. I've set up Discourse this way. As a Gmail user, this is mostly fine as a mailing list replacement, but I can see (as a former mutt user) how mutt users who are used to being able to see the structure of threaded conversations would get annoyed, as Discourse publishes a flat message list. -- Tony Arcieri ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
There was a thread about it on... Discourse! http://discuss.rust-lang.org/t/is-it-time-to-kill-the-mailing-list/611/36 On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Tomi Pieviläinen tomi.pievilai...@iki.fi wrote: The mailing list is mostly dead BTW. Consider bringing this up on discuss.rust-lang.org instead. This is the first time I've heard of that. I checked that it isn't even linked on the homepage, but the mailing list and IRC are. Have I missed something, or should the discourse then be linked instead of or at least in addition of the mailing list? -- Tomi Pieviläinen, +358 400 487 504 A: Because it disrupts the natural way of thinking. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
That... breaks my workflow. Wouldn't it make much more sense to talk to people on the mailing list about killing the mailing list? It's like people went to the vim community to decide whether to cancel emacs development (or vice-versa) Tom El Dec 27, 2014, a las 12:02, Clark Gaebel cg.wowus...@gmail.com escribió: There was a thread about it on... Discourse! http://discuss.rust-lang.org/t/is-it-time-to-kill-the-mailing-list/611/36 On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Tomi Pieviläinen tomi.pievilai...@iki.fi wrote: The mailing list is mostly dead BTW. Consider bringing this up on discuss.rust-lang.org instead. This is the first time I've heard of that. I checked that it isn't even linked on the homepage, but the mailing list and IRC are. Have I missed something, or should the discourse then be linked instead of or at least in addition of the mailing list? -- Tomi Pieviläinen, +358 400 487 504 A: Because it disrupts the natural way of thinking. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
A little hyperbolic, considering we're all the same rust community. And as far as I know you can set discourse up to work like a mailing list (i.e. email me for every post, email me even if you've seen me recently, don't batch emails, stuff like that) On Sat Dec 27 2014 at 11:54:41 AM amin...@gmail.com wrote: That... breaks my workflow. Wouldn't it make much more sense to talk to people on the mailing list about killing the mailing list? It's like people went to the vim community to decide whether to cancel emacs development (or vice-versa) Tom El Dec 27, 2014, a las 12:02, Clark Gaebel cg.wowus...@gmail.com escribió: There was a thread about it on... Discourse! http://discuss.rust-lang.org/t/is-it-time-to-kill-the-mailing-list/611/36 On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Tomi Pieviläinen tomi.pievilai...@iki.fi wrote: The mailing list is mostly dead BTW. Consider bringing this up on discuss.rust-lang.org instead. This is the first time I've heard of that. I checked that it isn't even linked on the homepage, but the mailing list and IRC are. Have I missed something, or should the discourse then be linked instead of or at least in addition of the mailing list? -- Tomi Pieviläinen, +358 400 487 504 A: Because it disrupts the natural way of thinking. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
On 2014-12-27 19:13, Evan G wrote: A little hyperbolic, considering we're all the same rust community. And as far as I know you can set discourse up to work like a mailing list (i.e. email me for every post, email me even if you've seen me recently, don't batch emails, stuff like that) ... unless you're using GMANE which is one of the few remaining *sane* ways of handling dozens of mailing lists AFAICT. In contrast to mailing lists it doesn't seem feasible to keep up with dozens of online forums since they a) mostly run different software, i.e. usually non-mail-friendly, and b) I cannot get a unified interface to all the forums I would need to if all the mailing lists I'm currently following were to be converted to forums. I fully recognize that this isn't likely to convince anyone who isn't used to the awesome that is GMANE/NNTP, but I just want to point out what a shame it is that we're going ever-closer to siloization of the debate/discussion format (and content!) when we actually have a reasonably good technology to avoid it (NNTP) -- just out of apathy and/or laziness on the part of forum software users *and* vendors/implementers. :( ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
El Dec 27, 2014, a las 13:13, Evan G eg1...@gmail.com escribió: A little hyperbolic, considering we're all the same rust community. I don't think so -- talking about killing the mailing list in a place mailing-list-only community members won't see it sounds a little like something from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. That said, i'm open to hearing the arguments for it Tom And as far as I know you can set discourse up to work like a mailing list (i.e. email me for every post, email me even if you've seen me recently, don't batch emails, stuff like that) On Sat Dec 27 2014 at 11:54:41 AM amin...@gmail.com wrote: That... breaks my workflow. Wouldn't it make much more sense to talk to people on the mailing list about killing the mailing list? It's like people went to the vim community to decide whether to cancel emacs development (or vice-versa) Tom El Dec 27, 2014, a las 12:02, Clark Gaebel cg.wowus...@gmail.com escribió: There was a thread about it on... Discourse! http://discuss.rust-lang.org/t/is-it-time-to-kill-the-mailing-list/611/36 On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Tomi Pieviläinen tomi.pievilai...@iki.fi wrote: The mailing list is mostly dead BTW. Consider bringing this up on discuss.rust-lang.org instead. This is the first time I've heard of that. I checked that it isn't even linked on the homepage, but the mailing list and IRC are. Have I missed something, or should the discourse then be linked instead of or at least in addition of the mailing list? -- Tomi Pieviläinen, +358 400 487 504 A: Because it disrupts the natural way of thinking. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
Re: [rust-dev] Rust discourse visibility [Was: Tail call compatibility]
On 2014-12-27 22:12, amin...@gmail.com wrote: El Dec 27, 2014, a las 13:13, Evan G eg1...@gmail.com escribió: A little hyperbolic, considering we're all the same rust community. I don't think so -- talking about killing the mailing list in a place mailing-list-only community members won't see it sounds a little like something from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. That said, i'm open to hearing the arguments for it I think Kafka beat our beloved Doglas by a few years, but yeah. Pretty weird to not mention it to the people who you'd imagine cared the most. Anyway, ___ Rust-dev mailing list Rust-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/rust-dev
