Re: [sage-devel] One year of Sage development on GitHub
On 13 February 2024 00:58:04 GMT, Nils Bruin wrote: >On Monday 12 February 2024 at 15:58:11 UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote: > >What's rotten and decaying - well, the most obvious points are: > >* pynac (memory leaks, bugs, sketchy or no docs, authors left long time >ago) > >* commutative algebra, in particular Singular-based (memory leaks, >bugs, no docs, authors either left or are not willing to look into it >much), etc. > >* maxima (bugs, bugs, bugs) > >* broken optional packages, e.g. p_group_cohomology > > >Each of those components could definitely use attention. However, the skill >set required to work on those components is quite different from that on >working on (re)packaging existing, maintained python projects. People >choose what they work on. This is not quite correct. People have a sense of duty. If e.g. Sage docs don't build, someone has to fix this? It's a higher priority task than fixing a particular maths-related bug. Certainly some people are happy to ignore pleas for help with re-packaging and maintaining packages, and use their maths skillsets, but it's hard for many to do so. One does not need a maths degree to cut and paste lists of files, or write autoconf macros, yet that's what I was doing for quite a part of my contributions. Out of sense of duty, cause it was something needed, or it looked like something needed. And it causes quite a riot now when I dare to question the need for a large part of these packaging business... > I think we have a problem if we don't have anyone >willing/able to work on pynac or singular or maxima. But I'm not sure this >has very much to do with people working on (re)packaging other software. One can alleviate parts of these problems by connecting other potential backends to sage, e.g. symengine to become a replacement for pynac. > >The discussion about whether a sage-the-distribution should exist and how >it relates to sage-the-library definitely needs to be resolved at some >point and, whatever decision is made, people need to accept that's the >consensus and move on until the next time it needs to be reconsidered, but >I don't think that the resolution of that issue will alleviate the lack of >maintainers of pynac etc. Pynac is beyond salvation. We need a collective momentum and a sense of urgency to fix it in a good way. And the same for the rest of the issues I listed. But right now we have 300 irrelevant to maths standard packages with versions controlled in 5 different ways which sits in our way and hard to ignore. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/7B62576E-D8CD-4F3D-80EC-F671492B3D49%40gmail.com.
Re: [sage-devel] One year of Sage development on GitHub
For me - personally - the problem that Vincent pointed out has an emotional flavour: most of the threads on sage-devel are on (lcertainly important) technicalities. The discussion about how to implement math has mostly moved to github, and split into very very many issues that are hard to find and hard to follow. The efforts to sort issues by topic are therefore very important to me. It is a bit sad that search on github is even worse than on google groups - there is no way to seach for partial words. Martin On Tuesday 13 February 2024 at 02:23:05 UTC+1 Matthias Koeppe wrote: > On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 4:58:05 PM UTC-8 Nils Bruin wrote: > > > Each of those components could definitely use attention. However, the > skill set required to work on those components is quite different from that > on working on (re)packaging existing, maintained python projects. People > choose what they work on. I think we have a problem if we don't have anyone > willing/able to work on pynac or singular or maxima. But I'm not sure this > has very much to do with people working on (re)packaging other software. > > > Exactly! > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/5214a72a-1ddc-46c1-b601-86a300ac79c4n%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [sage-devel] One year of Sage development on GitHub
On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 4:58:05 PM UTC-8 Nils Bruin wrote: Each of those components could definitely use attention. However, the skill set required to work on those components is quite different from that on working on (re)packaging existing, maintained python projects. People choose what they work on. I think we have a problem if we don't have anyone willing/able to work on pynac or singular or maxima. But I'm not sure this has very much to do with people working on (re)packaging other software. Exactly! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/6fab4d7f-7566-47cb-a432-458b3edd5146n%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [sage-devel] One year of Sage development on GitHub
On Monday 12 February 2024 at 15:58:11 UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote: What's rotten and decaying - well, the most obvious points are: * pynac (memory leaks, bugs, sketchy or no docs, authors left long time ago) * commutative algebra, in particular Singular-based (memory leaks, bugs, no docs, authors either left or are not willing to look into it much), etc. * maxima (bugs, bugs, bugs) * broken optional packages, e.g. p_group_cohomology Each of those components could definitely use attention. However, the skill set required to work on those components is quite different from that on working on (re)packaging existing, maintained python projects. People choose what they work on. I think we have a problem if we don't have anyone willing/able to work on pynac or singular or maxima. But I'm not sure this has very much to do with people working on (re)packaging other software. The discussion about whether a sage-the-distribution should exist and how it relates to sage-the-library definitely needs to be resolved at some point and, whatever decision is made, people need to accept that's the consensus and move on until the next time it needs to be reconsidered, but I don't think that the resolution of that issue will alleviate the lack of maintainers of pynac etc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/2bf356de-c6be-402e-9278-55e901469ec7n%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [sage-devel] One year of Sage development on GitHub
On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 6:55 PM Vincent Delecroix <20100.delecr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I fully second the observation of Michael though it might have few to > do with the github switch. Sage development nowadays does not seem to > be anymore about math research and efficient computations but mostly > about "dependencies", "infrastructure" and "maintenance". I am always > depressed by reading the change logs. It might have been a reasonable > thing if sage was a "stable core Computer Algebra System" on which > further specialized math research libraries would depend on. Indeed, it doesn't have much to do with switching to GitHub. The problem is that we don't have a "stable core", we have a rotting, decaying core, which is in no way helped by spending time on micromanaging versions of every tiny piece of Jupyter, Sphinx, Python build infrastructure, etc. Something that other maths Python projects (apart from Anaconda) just accept as given. What's rotten and decaying - well, the most obvious points are: * pynac (memory leaks, bugs, sketchy or no docs, authors left long time ago) * commutative algebra, in particular Singular-based (memory leaks, bugs, no docs, authors either left or are not willing to look into it much), etc. * maxima (bugs, bugs, bugs) * broken optional packages, e.g. p_group_cohomology > But the > latter is not the official nor advised way of doing things. > > On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 14:02, Michael Orlitzky wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 11:30 +, Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > > > > > We should not try to compete, in effect, with Conda etc, yet we do. This > > > is > > > the primary reason for slowness. > > > > > > > My personal stats for the year 2023-02-08 through 2024-02-08: > > > > Commits: 423 > > Reviews: 38 > > > > Zero of those have anything to do with mathematics. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "sage-devel" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/665f0fd945ca6301e75489e1922fb03462cda021.camel%40orlitzky.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAGEwAAmCkF%2Bj1XUQEuAK2B%3DD6WDT8Ejk9qrVBZ6fVvxg8H19EQ%40mail.gmail.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAAWYfq3GidPRiSx_JO3MiFXXYvM9fbfc7b1K0_a%2B41Vi62HhEw%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: [sage-devel] One year of Sage development on GitHub
On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 10:55:37 AM UTC-8 Vincent Delecroix wrote: Sage development nowadays does not seem to be anymore about math research and efficient computations but mostly about "dependencies", "infrastructure" and "maintenance". I am always depressed by reading the change logs. It might have been a reasonable thing if sage was a "stable core Computer Algebra System" on which further specialized math research libraries would depend on. Isn't your https://github.com/flatsurf/sage-flatsurf project doing exactly that? But the latter is not the official nor advised way of doing things. What are you talking about? It's the intentional result of over a decade of the project's policy of sending potential contributors away to go do their contributions in separately maintained projects. We have a working mechanism to advertise such projects in our manual. - We have an index of packages: https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/reference/spkg/#optional-packages - We have a page for each package: https://deploy-livedoc--sagemath.netlify.app/html/en/reference/spkg/sage_flatsurf#spkg-sage-flatsurf - We have a process for adding package: https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/31164 What we don't have is a clear process to include news about the projects in our release notes. https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/Sage-10.3-Release-Tour Such contributions to the release notes would be very welcome! That's by the way a downside of including the project in Sage only as a "pip" package without pinning the version: There's never a PR that bumps the version, hence it does not appear in the Github-generated changelog, and hence there is nothing that prompts anyone to add a narrative to our release notes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/7c980af6-041b-40db-a58e-ba69872c66ecn%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [sage-devel] One year of Sage development on GitHub
I fully second the observation of Michael though it might have few to do with the github switch. Sage development nowadays does not seem to be anymore about math research and efficient computations but mostly about "dependencies", "infrastructure" and "maintenance". I am always depressed by reading the change logs. It might have been a reasonable thing if sage was a "stable core Computer Algebra System" on which further specialized math research libraries would depend on. But the latter is not the official nor advised way of doing things. On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 14:02, Michael Orlitzky wrote: > > On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 11:30 +, Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > > > We should not try to compete, in effect, with Conda etc, yet we do. This is > > the primary reason for slowness. > > > > My personal stats for the year 2023-02-08 through 2024-02-08: > > Commits: 423 > Reviews: 38 > > Zero of those have anything to do with mathematics. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/665f0fd945ca6301e75489e1922fb03462cda021.camel%40orlitzky.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAGEwAAmCkF%2Bj1XUQEuAK2B%3DD6WDT8Ejk9qrVBZ6fVvxg8H19EQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: [sage-devel] One year of Sage development on GitHub
On Thu, 2024-02-08 at 11:30 +, Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > We should not try to compete, in effect, with Conda etc, yet we do. This is > the primary reason for slowness. > My personal stats for the year 2023-02-08 through 2024-02-08: Commits: 423 Reviews: 38 Zero of those have anything to do with mathematics. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/665f0fd945ca6301e75489e1922fb03462cda021.camel%40orlitzky.com.
