Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-16 Thread Erik Bray
On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 8:45 PM Michael Orlitzky  wrote:
>
> On 08/14/2018 12:54 PM, Erik Bray wrote:
> >
> > Why would they do even that?  It's just a data package.  For the
> > purposes of upstream packaging it doesn't need a configure.ac.  It can
> > just be a bundle of files.  But I still don't see what that solves.
> > Good luck getting 30 GB of obscure math data upstreamed to an
> > arbitrary number of OS packagers...
>
> From the Gentoo perspective: the existence of ./configure means that the
> default build process will put everything in the right place without me
> having to figure out where that is and copy/paste it. And the "package"
> is nothing but a tiny text file until somebody installs it.

I see what you're saying now--it obviates the need for any "custom"
installation instructions.  If someone wanted to do that then it's
obviously fine.  Though I don't see how that ultimately relates to the
topic of deprecating old-style Sage spkgs.

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-14 Thread Michael Orlitzky
On 08/14/2018 12:54 PM, Erik Bray wrote:
> 
> Why would they do even that?  It's just a data package.  For the
> purposes of upstream packaging it doesn't need a configure.ac.  It can
> just be a bundle of files.  But I still don't see what that solves.
> Good luck getting 30 GB of obscure math data upstreamed to an
> arbitrary number of OS packagers...

>From the Gentoo perspective: the existence of ./configure means that the
default build process will put everything in the right place without me
having to figure out where that is and copy/paste it. And the "package"
is nothing but a tiny text file until somebody installs it.

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-14 Thread Erik Bray
On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 6:41 PM Michael Orlitzky  wrote:
>
> On 08/14/2018 12:22 PM, Erik Bray wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean in this case by "system package".
> >
>
> Have the upstream authors create a (basically empty) configure.ac file,
> call it version 1.0.0, and release a tarball.

Why would they do even that?  It's just a data package.  For the
purposes of upstream packaging it doesn't need a configure.ac.  It can
just be a bundle of files.  But I still don't see what that solves.
Good luck getting 30 GB of obscure math data upstreamed to an
arbitrary number of OS packagers...

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-14 Thread Michael Orlitzky
On 08/14/2018 12:22 PM, Erik Bray wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean in this case by "system package".
> 

Have the upstream authors create a (basically empty) configure.ac file,
call it version 1.0.0, and release a tarball.

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-14 Thread Erik Bray
On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 1:21 AM Michael Orlitzky  wrote:
>
> On 08/10/2018 11:50 AM, Erik Bray wrote:
> >>
> >> While we are at it: it would be awesome if installation of this
> >> package after upgrade was faster. "Installation" just means unpacking
> >> files and copying them somewhere, but it takes something like 45
> >> minutes. Some time ago I asked to use parallel decompressor if it is
> >> available in the system, which helped a lot, but then it stopped again.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > That said, I don't believe it should really be a Sage package in the
> > first place.
>
> If anything, it should be a standalone (system) package. We could then
> point sage at the pile of data with a ./configure flag. No need to
> "upgrade" the sage copy of the same stuff every time.

I'm not sure what you mean in this case by "system package".  As I see
it it's just a bunch of files that could be unpacked anywhere, and any
code that uses it could be pointed to it with an argument and/or
environment variable, perhaps with a sensible default (in fact, this
is more or less what's already done, and the packaging as an "spkg" is
just a convenience to make sure it's unpacked automatically to the
correct default location).

I'm not even against it remaining as a new-style spkg; it would just
have to be repackaged as a .tar., and
we would need to make sure that sage-download-file can find files
under http://files.sagemath.org/spkg/huge/

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-11 Thread Michael Orlitzky
On 08/10/2018 11:50 AM, Erik Bray wrote:
>> 
>> While we are at it: it would be awesome if installation of this
>> package after upgrade was faster. "Installation" just means unpacking
>> files and copying them somewhere, but it takes something like 45
>> minutes. Some time ago I asked to use parallel decompressor if it is
>> available in the system, which helped a lot, but then it stopped again.
> 
> ...
> 
> That said, I don't believe it should really be a Sage package in the
> first place. 

If anything, it should be a standalone (system) package. We could then
point sage at the pile of data with a ./configure flag. No need to
"upgrade" the sage copy of the same stuff every time.

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-10 Thread Samuel Lelievre


Le vendredi 10 août 2018 17:35:58 UTC+2, Samuel Lelievre a écrit :
>
> The "Environment variables" section of the "Install from source code"
> page of the reference manual,
>
>
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/master/src/doc/en/installation/source.rst#environment-variables
>
> has this sentence:
>
> > Note that Sage will search the directory
> >
> > - `SAGE_SERVER/spkg/upstream`
> >
> > for clean upstream tarballs, and it searches the directories
> >
> > - `SAGE_SERVER/spkg/standard/`,
> > - `SAGE_SERVER/spkg/optional/`,
> > - `SAGE_SERVER/spkg/experimental/`,
> > - `SAGE_SERVER/spkg/archive/`
> >
> > for old-style Sage packages.
>
> but this fails to mention the huge/ subdirectory.
>
> Also, the archive/ subdirectory is no longer found at
>
> http://files.sagemath.org/spkg/archive/
>
> but it exists at
>
> http://old.files.sagemath.org/spkg/archive/
>
>
However the huge/ directory should be searched to according to
line 396 of the sage-spkg script:

https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/master/build/bin/sage-spkg#L396

for repo in optional experimental huge; do

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-10 Thread Erik Bray
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 5:39 PM Andrey Novoseltsev  wrote:
>
> On Friday, 10 August 2018 04:23:45 UTC-6, Erik Bray wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:46 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>> >
>> > could you offer this package for download, at least temporarily?
>> > Perhaps we could put it on github...
>>
>> Where did it come from in the first place?  Is this some pre-computed
>> data?  Was it computed by Sage?  Something else...?
>
>
> Data originates from http://hep.itp.tuwien.ac.at/~kreuzer/CY/
>
> The whole list can be generated using PALP (a standard package in Sage), but 
> when they have done it first, it took about a year on multiple computers, so 
> there is sense in just downloading these polytopes. Sage package contains 
> precomputed data for Hodge numbers as well, allowing quick search for 
> particular cases. Volker knows more about exact details, I was just happily 
> using the result.
>
> While we are at it: it would be awesome if installation of this package after 
> upgrade was faster. "Installation" just means unpacking files and copying 
> them somewhere, but it takes something like 45 minutes. Some time ago I asked 
> to use parallel decompressor if it is available in the system, which helped a 
> lot, but then it stopped again.

I introduced some regressions a little while back that are probably
making this extremely slow, but am working on fixing it:
https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/26011

That said, I don't believe it should really be a Sage package in the
first place.  At the very least maybe a "script" type package, which
just runs some commands that might download a tarball and unpack it or
something, but is not considered a normal package.  Better still, huge
data like this really ought to be accessible through some kind of
online database (though one would still want to be able to download
the full dataset from somewhere too).

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-10 Thread Andrey Novoseltsev
On Friday, 10 August 2018 04:23:45 UTC-6, Erik Bray wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:46 AM Dima Pasechnik  > wrote: 
> > 
> > could you offer this package for download, at least temporarily? 
> > Perhaps we could put it on github... 
>
> Where did it come from in the first place?  Is this some pre-computed 
> data?  Was it computed by Sage?  Something else...? 
>

Data originates from http://hep.itp.tuwien.ac.at/~kreuzer/CY/

The whole list can be generated using PALP (a standard package in Sage), 
but when they have done it first, it took about a year on multiple 
computers, so there is sense in just downloading these polytopes. Sage 
package contains precomputed data for Hodge numbers as well, allowing quick 
search for particular cases. Volker knows more about exact details, I was 
just happily using the result.

While we are at it: it would be awesome if installation of this package 
after upgrade was faster. "Installation" just means unpacking files and 
copying them somewhere, but it takes something like 45 minutes. Some time 
ago I asked to use parallel decompressor if it is available in the system, 
which helped a lot, but then it stopped again.

Thank you!
Andrey

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-10 Thread Samuel Lelievre
The "Environment variables" section of the "Install from source code"
page of the reference manual,

https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/master/src/doc/en/installation/source.rst#environment-variables

has this sentence:

> Note that Sage will search the directory
>
> - `SAGE_SERVER/spkg/upstream`
>
> for clean upstream tarballs, and it searches the directories
>
> - `SAGE_SERVER/spkg/standard/`,
> - `SAGE_SERVER/spkg/optional/`,
> - `SAGE_SERVER/spkg/experimental/`,
> - `SAGE_SERVER/spkg/archive/`
>
> for old-style Sage packages.

but this fails to mention the huge/ subdirectory.

Also, the archive/ subdirectory is no longer found at

http://files.sagemath.org/spkg/archive/

but it exists at

http://old.files.sagemath.org/spkg/archive/

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-10 Thread Samuel Lelievre


Le jeudi 9 août 2018 13:29:44 UTC+2, Erik Bray a écrit :
>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 6:54 AM Vincent Delecroix 
> <20100.d...@gmail.com > wrote: 
> > 
> > On 08/08/2018 20:12, Andrey Novoseltsev wrote: 
> > > On Wednesday, 8 August 2018 17:19:13 UTC-6, Travis Scrimshaw wrote: 
> > >> 
> > >> IMO, it would be good to have here a current list of old-style spkgs 
> so we 
> > >> can be explicit about what things we are dropping support for. 
> > >> 
> > > 
> > > And can we please not omit "huge" packages like 
> polytopes_db_4d-1.0.spkg - 
> > > I do use it and would like to keep it available, but I have no idea 
> where 
> > > it is located and whether downloading it still works - I use a local 
> copy 
> > > for many years (it is 8.7G). 
> > 
> > Could you kindly upgrade it to a new style package? (or at least open a 
> > ticket with a pointer to the spkg tarball) 
>
> Entirely by coincidence, unrelated to this thread, I just opened: 
> https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/26029 
>
> I'm glad to know there's at least someone who uses it.  I was not able 
> to find a copy of the package itself on any of the Sage mirrors I 
> checked.  But I think we should decide what to do about it.  Keeping 
> it as a .spkg isn't really helpful, and keeping "huge" packages as a 
> special case for still supporting .spkgs defeats the purpose of 
> dropping support. 
>

The package is here:
http://files.sagemath.org/spkg/huge/ 

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-10 Thread Erik Bray
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:46 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> could you offer this package for download, at least temporarily?
> Perhaps we could put it on github...

Where did it come from in the first place?  Is this some pre-computed
data?  Was it computed by Sage?  Something else...?

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-10 Thread Dima Pasechnik
could you offer this package for download, at least temporarily?
Perhaps we could put it on github...

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-09 Thread Erik Bray
On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 3:02 PM Thierry  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 01:29:33PM +0200, Erik Bray wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 6:54 AM Vincent Delecroix
> > <20100.delecr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 08/08/2018 20:12, Andrey Novoseltsev wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, 8 August 2018 17:19:13 UTC-6, Travis Scrimshaw wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> IMO, it would be good to have here a current list of old-style spkgs 
> > > >> so we
> > > >> can be explicit about what things we are dropping support for.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > And can we please not omit "huge" packages like 
> > > > polytopes_db_4d-1.0.spkg -
> > > > I do use it and would like to keep it available, but I have no idea 
> > > > where
> > > > it is located and whether downloading it still works - I use a local 
> > > > copy
> > > > for many years (it is 8.7G).
> > >
> > > Could you kindly upgrade it to a new style package? (or at least open a
> > > ticket with a pointer to the spkg tarball)
> >
> > Entirely by coincidence, unrelated to this thread, I just opened:
> > https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/26029
> >
> > I'm glad to know there's at least someone who uses it.  I was not able
> > to find a copy of the package itself on any of the Sage mirrors I
> > checked.  But I think we should decide what to do about it.  Keeping
> > it as a .spkg isn't really helpful, and keeping "huge" packages as a
> > special case for still supporting .spkgs defeats the purpose of
> > dropping support.
>
> For the record, note that there is a wiki page that follows the migration,
> and that lists the old-style packages that are still of interest
> (polytopes_db_4d is one of them)
> https://wiki.sagemath.org/Classify%20old-style%20packages

Perhaps a good way to find out what really needs attention is to

a) Make the deprecation louder--e.g. break outright and refuse to
install unless an additional flag is added or something like that.

b) See who complains--if anyone--and if not we can drop them.

For all the non-mathematical and experimental packages I would just
leave them if they are not required by Sage.

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-09 Thread Thierry
Hi,

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 01:29:33PM +0200, Erik Bray wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 6:54 AM Vincent Delecroix
> <20100.delecr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 08/08/2018 20:12, Andrey Novoseltsev wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 8 August 2018 17:19:13 UTC-6, Travis Scrimshaw wrote:
> > >>
> > >> IMO, it would be good to have here a current list of old-style spkgs so 
> > >> we
> > >> can be explicit about what things we are dropping support for.
> > >>
> > >
> > > And can we please not omit "huge" packages like polytopes_db_4d-1.0.spkg -
> > > I do use it and would like to keep it available, but I have no idea where
> > > it is located and whether downloading it still works - I use a local copy
> > > for many years (it is 8.7G).
> >
> > Could you kindly upgrade it to a new style package? (or at least open a
> > ticket with a pointer to the spkg tarball)
> 
> Entirely by coincidence, unrelated to this thread, I just opened:
> https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/26029
> 
> I'm glad to know there's at least someone who uses it.  I was not able
> to find a copy of the package itself on any of the Sage mirrors I
> checked.  But I think we should decide what to do about it.  Keeping
> it as a .spkg isn't really helpful, and keeping "huge" packages as a
> special case for still supporting .spkgs defeats the purpose of
> dropping support.

For the record, note that there is a wiki page that follows the migration,
and that lists the old-style packages that are still of interest
(polytopes_db_4d is one of them)
https://wiki.sagemath.org/Classify%20old-style%20packages

Ciao,
Thierry


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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-09 Thread Erik Bray
On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 6:54 AM Vincent Delecroix
<20100.delecr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 08/08/2018 20:12, Andrey Novoseltsev wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 8 August 2018 17:19:13 UTC-6, Travis Scrimshaw wrote:
> >>
> >> IMO, it would be good to have here a current list of old-style spkgs so we
> >> can be explicit about what things we are dropping support for.
> >>
> >
> > And can we please not omit "huge" packages like polytopes_db_4d-1.0.spkg -
> > I do use it and would like to keep it available, but I have no idea where
> > it is located and whether downloading it still works - I use a local copy
> > for many years (it is 8.7G).
>
> Could you kindly upgrade it to a new style package? (or at least open a
> ticket with a pointer to the spkg tarball)

Entirely by coincidence, unrelated to this thread, I just opened:
https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/26029

I'm glad to know there's at least someone who uses it.  I was not able
to find a copy of the package itself on any of the Sage mirrors I
checked.  But I think we should decide what to do about it.  Keeping
it as a .spkg isn't really helpful, and keeping "huge" packages as a
special case for still supporting .spkgs defeats the purpose of
dropping support.

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-09 Thread Erik Bray
On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 10:35 PM Jeroen Demeyer  wrote:
>
> On 2018-08-08 19:06, Erik Bray wrote:
> > That seems like long enough to me to rip out all support for them.
> > I'd especially like to do this since I feel increasingly compelled to
> > rewrite most or all of the sage-spkg script in Python, and it will
> > greatly simplify matters to not have to maintain that support.
>
> Fine for me, as long as you separate the "dropping support the old-style
> spkgs" and "rewrite sage-spkg" parts.

Of course.  I already started work on this and I wanted to do things
this way since dropping support first makes sage-spkg much much
simpler and thus, easier to (eventually) port.

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-08 Thread Vincent Delecroix

On 08/08/2018 20:12, Andrey Novoseltsev wrote:

On Wednesday, 8 August 2018 17:19:13 UTC-6, Travis Scrimshaw wrote:


IMO, it would be good to have here a current list of old-style spkgs so we
can be explicit about what things we are dropping support for.



And can we please not omit "huge" packages like polytopes_db_4d-1.0.spkg -
I do use it and would like to keep it available, but I have no idea where
it is located and whether downloading it still works - I use a local copy
for many years (it is 8.7G).


Could you kindly upgrade it to a new style package? (or at least open a
ticket with a pointer to the spkg tarball)

Vincent

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-08 Thread Andrey Novoseltsev
On Wednesday, 8 August 2018 17:19:13 UTC-6, Travis Scrimshaw wrote:
>
> IMO, it would be good to have here a current list of old-style spkgs so we 
> can be explicit about what things we are dropping support for.
>

And can we please not omit "huge" packages like polytopes_db_4d-1.0.spkg - 
I do use it and would like to keep it available, but I have no idea where 
it is located and whether downloading it still works - I use a local copy 
for many years (it is 8.7G). 

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-08 Thread Travis Scrimshaw
IMO, it would be good to have here a current list of old-style spkgs so we 
can be explicit about what things we are dropping support for.

Best,
Travis

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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-08 Thread Jeroen Demeyer

On 2018-08-08 19:06, Erik Bray wrote:

That seems like long enough to me to rip out all support for them.
I'd especially like to do this since I feel increasingly compelled to
rewrite most or all of the sage-spkg script in Python, and it will
greatly simplify matters to not have to maintain that support.


Fine for me, as long as you separate the "dropping support the old-style 
spkgs" and "rewrite sage-spkg" parts.


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Re: [sage-devel] Dropping support for old-style .spkgs?

2018-08-08 Thread David Roe
Sage 6.9 was released in October 2015.  Dropping support for old-style
spkgs seems reasonable to me.
David

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 1:06 PM Erik Bray  wrote:

> We still have quite a bit of code around for supporting old-style
> packages in .spkg archives, though it is not well tested anymore and
> I'm not even 100% sure installing these still works.
>
> We have also noted, since Sage 6.9, that these are deprecated and
> unsupported.
>
> That seems like long enough to me to rip out all support for them.
> I'd especially like to do this since I feel increasingly compelled to
> rewrite most or all of the sage-spkg script in Python, and it will
> greatly simplify matters to not have to maintain that support.
>
> But even that aside, it seems well past time?
>
> Thanks,
> E
>
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