Re: [sage-devel] Re: PYTHONUSERBASE?
On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Vincent Delecroix < 20100.delecr...@gmail.com> wrote: > I would benefit a lot from having Sage be part of the system Python. > The reason is that I am using a distribution and my distribution comes > with many Python modules that I am using. For some of them they are > either broken on Sage or just does not compile at all (eg matplotlib > graphics, pygtk). I think that the thread of Bill Page about > ArraryFire and afnumpy [1] is basically telling the same thing. > Moreover, having Sage in the Python system means easier packaging for > distributions. From this point of view this would be a great win-win. > +1 !!! I just want to thank everybody contributing to this thread and anybody working on this! It's very much something I also want us to support. (Regarding virtualenv, I think it didn't even exist in 2004 when I started Sage, so I didn't think to use it originally. Later people suggested it...) William > > Vincent > > [1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/sxykrySwjys > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- William (http://wstein.org) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: PYTHONUSERBASE?
I would benefit a lot from having Sage be part of the system Python. The reason is that I am using a distribution and my distribution comes with many Python modules that I am using. For some of them they are either broken on Sage or just does not compile at all (eg matplotlib graphics, pygtk). I think that the thread of Bill Page about ArraryFire and afnumpy [1] is basically telling the same thing. Moreover, having Sage in the Python system means easier packaging for distributions. From this point of view this would be a great win-win. Vincent [1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/sxykrySwjys -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: PYTHONUSERBASE?
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Volker Braun wrote: > I think this idea of installing stuff globally (either system-wide or in > ~/.local) is outdated. Really its always better to make a venv if you need > some sort of specialist package. Its just an all-around better workflow. And > Sage-the-distribution really is like a big venv. I agree with this characterization. Sage-the-distribution is little different from a virtualenv. In fact, perhaps one of the more important steps we could make toward better integration with the system Python is to actually make the Sage environment compatible with virtualenv (e.g. by setting the correct environment variables, and using the site.py from virtualenv, among other things). To me the biggest advantage of that is primarily for developers--I can work on Sage like I work on other Python projects, by running `workon sage` and being plopped into my sage environment. Effectively this would be little different from running "cd path/to/sage/src; ./sage -sh". It's a subtle difference. > I'd rather spend 5 seconds installing my favorite package into Sage than an > hour debugging what in ~/.local makes Sage crash. > > And there are a lot of potential conflicts; for startes if you compile Sage > with SAGE_DEBUG=yes then the Python ABI will be incompatible with any > extension modules in ~/.local > > If anything I would document that you can opt-in to the account-wide > packages by running "PYTHONUSERBASE=~/.local sage" > > > > > > > > > On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 5:38:58 PM UTC+2, William wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I personally disagree with trying to make Sage's python and the >> general environment be as isolated as possibly from each other. We >> should try to interoperate with the greater Python world as much as >> possible, not change things to discourage that. If you want total >> isolation, use Docker, don't mess with environment variables like >> this... >> >> I realize that this might just get closed due to philosophical >> differences. How about just document PYTHONUSERBASE in our FAQ or >> something (like it is in python) and trust users to have a clue? >> >> I've made https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/21456 about this. However, >> the authors of the new code in Sage that sets PYTHONUSERBASE if it >> isn't set, might have a very different opinion, and for a good reason. >> Thoughts? >> >> -- William >> >> >> -- >> William (http://wstein.org) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: PYTHONUSERBASE?
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 4:55 PM, William Stein wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 3:30 AM, Volker Braun wrote: >> I think this idea of installing stuff globally (either system-wide or in >> ~/.local) is outdated. Really its always better to make a venv if you need >> some sort of specialist package. Its just an all-around better workflow. And >> Sage-the-distribution really is like a big venv. >> >> I'd rather spend 5 seconds installing my favorite package into Sage than an >> hour debugging what in ~/.local makes Sage crash. >> >> And there are a lot of potential conflicts; for startes if you compile Sage >> with SAGE_DEBUG=yes then the Python ABI will be incompatible with any >> extension modules in ~/.local >> >> If anything I would document that you can opt-in to the account-wide >> packages by running "PYTHONUSERBASE=~/.local sage" > > Python itself could make those same arguments, as one can install > multiple copies of Python in different ways on a single computer. > > I wish more people were interested in integrating Sage with the wider > Python ecosystem and community... I am very interested in this but it's an uphill battle. Not that it can't be done though. It's just a lot of issues all at once, and I'm still focused on Windows support for now. I think much of this does fall partly under ODK though, so I'm hoping I can spend more time on this issue. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 5:38:58 PM UTC+2, William wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I personally disagree with trying to make Sage's python and the >>> general environment be as isolated as possibly from each other. We >>> should try to interoperate with the greater Python world as much as >>> possible, not change things to discourage that. If you want total >>> isolation, use Docker, don't mess with environment variables like >>> this... >>> >>> I realize that this might just get closed due to philosophical >>> differences. How about just document PYTHONUSERBASE in our FAQ or >>> something (like it is in python) and trust users to have a clue? >>> >>> I've made https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/21456 about this. However, >>> the authors of the new code in Sage that sets PYTHONUSERBASE if it >>> isn't set, might have a very different opinion, and for a good reason. >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> -- William >>> >>> >>> -- >>> William (http://wstein.org) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "sage-devel" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > -- > William (http://wstein.org) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: PYTHONUSERBASE?
On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 4:55:48 PM UTC+2, William wrote: > > Python itself could make those same arguments, as one can install > multiple copies of Python in different ways on a single computer. > Thats not really a valid argument, you are comparing apples and oranges. If anything, the emphasis that Python places on isolated venvs supports my point. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: PYTHONUSERBASE?
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 3:30 AM, Volker Braun wrote: > I think this idea of installing stuff globally (either system-wide or in > ~/.local) is outdated. Really its always better to make a venv if you need > some sort of specialist package. Its just an all-around better workflow. And > Sage-the-distribution really is like a big venv. > > I'd rather spend 5 seconds installing my favorite package into Sage than an > hour debugging what in ~/.local makes Sage crash. > > And there are a lot of potential conflicts; for startes if you compile Sage > with SAGE_DEBUG=yes then the Python ABI will be incompatible with any > extension modules in ~/.local > > If anything I would document that you can opt-in to the account-wide > packages by running "PYTHONUSERBASE=~/.local sage" Python itself could make those same arguments, as one can install multiple copies of Python in different ways on a single computer. I wish more people were interested in integrating Sage with the wider Python ecosystem and community... William > > > > > > > > > On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 5:38:58 PM UTC+2, William wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I personally disagree with trying to make Sage's python and the >> general environment be as isolated as possibly from each other. We >> should try to interoperate with the greater Python world as much as >> possible, not change things to discourage that. If you want total >> isolation, use Docker, don't mess with environment variables like >> this... >> >> I realize that this might just get closed due to philosophical >> differences. How about just document PYTHONUSERBASE in our FAQ or >> something (like it is in python) and trust users to have a clue? >> >> I've made https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/21456 about this. However, >> the authors of the new code in Sage that sets PYTHONUSERBASE if it >> isn't set, might have a very different opinion, and for a good reason. >> Thoughts? >> >> -- William >> >> >> -- >> William (http://wstein.org) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- William (http://wstein.org) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: PYTHONUSERBASE?
On 2016-09-09 18:29, leif wrote: See also https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/21430 for a very recent, related discussion. No, it's not related at all. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
