Re: [sane-devel] SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

James A. Robinson writes:

> I appreciate your contacting them about the discrepancy.  We'll see what
> they say (as you indicate, my own suspicion is that they will say nothing).
>
> BTW, regarding making sure to read the EULA, I assume you noticed that you
> can't actually get to the point where you see what architecture are
> supported, nor what the copyrights are, until after you sign the license?

Yup, just your "regular" click-through license.

Gotta agree to terms of use before you even get to take a look at what
it is you can use, but they'll use it against you anyway.
-- 
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join


-- 
sane-devel mailing list: sane-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject "unsubscribe your_password"
 to sane-devel-requ...@lists.alioth.debian.org

Re: [sane-devel] SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner

[James A. Robinson]

I appreciate your contacting them about the discrepancy.  We'll see what
they say (as you indicate, my own suspicion is that they will say nothing).

BTW, regarding making sure to read the EULA, I assume you noticed that you
can't actually get to the point where you see what architecture are
supported, nor what the copyrights are, until after you sign the license?

Jim
-- 
sane-devel mailing list: sane-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject "unsubscribe your_password"
 to sane-devel-requ...@lists.alioth.debian.org

Re: [sane-devel] SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner

[m. allan noah]

On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 6:25 AM, Olaf Meeuwissen
 wrote:
> Hi Allan,
>
> I just dashed off a rather long explation to James and the list.
>
> m. allan noah writes:
>
>> I personally am of the opinion that Brother is in violation of our
>> license. However, our license is not strictly GPL, and the differences
>> were clearly not written by a lawyer. You could argue that we give
>> some space for a company to steal our work, and keep it from their
>> users.
>
> The sane-backends source code contains files that are GPL and some that
> are GPL with an exception.  The exception is similar in spirit to what
> the LGPL allows and was, IIRC, added before (or around) the LGPL was
> introduced.  As long as they only used GPL with exception code (based on
> library symbols, I they did), there isn't really anything you can object
> to (unless you also object to using LGPL'd code ;-).

Well, I disagree on that point. In my mind, the key words in the
exception are 'an executable'. At the time the exception was added,
many people believed that free OS's were the way of the future, but we
would still be using large numbers of closed-source, shrink-wrapped
apps. The exception seems to have been intended to allow userspace
programs like StarOffice to initiate scanning. This is different from
linking SANE to a library, even if that library acts as a SANE
backend. I think it is a stretch to call Brother's usage in a backend
'an executable'. Yes, a library contains executable code, but it
cannot be started from the command line without a front-end.

>
> Personally, I wished that more of the sane-backends code is GPL, making
> it harder for folks to take what we share without sharing back.

I also wish we could change it, but it is too late. There have been
too many authors over too many years. There is a good chance that a
few of the authors have died. It would be very difficult to identify
entire files which could have their license changed.

When I added sanei_magic, I seriously debated making it GPL. But, I
decided that I could not find a way to convert my backends (which
needed to use it) to the GPL as well.

allan
-- 
"well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge
of my hand"

-- 
sane-devel mailing list: sane-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject "unsubscribe your_password"
 to sane-devel-requ...@lists.alioth.debian.org

Re: [sane-devel] SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi Allan,

I just dashed off a rather long explation to James and the list.

m. allan noah writes:

> I personally am of the opinion that Brother is in violation of our
> license. However, our license is not strictly GPL, and the differences
> were clearly not written by a lawyer. You could argue that we give
> some space for a company to steal our work, and keep it from their
> users.

The sane-backends source code contains files that are GPL and some that
are GPL with an exception.  The exception is similar in spirit to what
the LGPL allows and was, IIRC, added before (or around) the LGPL was
introduced.  As long as they only used GPL with exception code (based on
library symbols, I they did), there isn't really anything you can object
to (unless you also object to using LGPL'd code ;-).

Personally, I wished that more of the sane-backends code is GPL, making
it harder for folks to take what we share without sharing back.

> I vote with my money, and don't buy their products.

In addition, I'd point out their mistakes, publicly ;-)

Hope this helps,
-- 
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join


-- 
sane-devel mailing list: sane-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject "unsubscribe your_password"
 to sane-devel-requ...@lists.alioth.debian.org

Re: [sane-devel] SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi,

James A. Robinson writes:

> I was wondering whether or not any of the developers here know the
> story behind the Brother scanner drivers?   They offer a Debian
> package that identifies itself as GPL, and that claims it is based
> on sane-backends.When I asked them about getting ahold the
> source (I want to port it to ARM), I got the stock "thank you for
> choosing...  unfortunately we cannot support all models..." answer.
>
> I can't tell if that means that
>
> (a) they aren't really obligated to release their driver under the
> GPL, and mislabeled the Debian package as such.
>
> (b) they are obligated because they derived it from GPLed code, and
> are not following their obligations under that license.
>
> I did specifically mention the GPL confusion, but they didn't
> bother to address that point in their reply.
>
> The copyright file from the debian binary package
> http://support.brother.com/g/b/downloadlist.aspx?c=us=en=pds6000_us_eu_as=128
>  says:
>
> Name : brother-pds-sane
> Version : 1.0.0
> Release : 4
> Architecture: amd64
> Install Date: (not installed)
> Group : Applications/System
> Size : 14276902
> License : GPL
> Signature : (none)
> Source RPM : brother-pds-sane-1.0.0-4.src.rpm
> Build Date : 2015年05月28日 (週四) 16時34分37秒
> Build Host : Brother
> Relocations : (not relocatable)
> Packager : Brother Industries, Ltd.
> Vendor : Brother Industries, Ltd.
> Summary : SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner
> Description :
> SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner. It based on sane-backends, so
> we need install sane-backends package first.

Hmm, before being able to download, I had to agree to a EULA that had
this in it:

  Further, Brother shall have no liability to disclose and/or distribute
  the source cord[sic] of the Software to User under any circumstances.
  In no case shall the above license by Brother to modify, alter,
  translate or otherwise prepare derivative works of the Software be
  construed as Brother's implied agreement or undertakings to disclose
  and/or distribute the source cord[sic] of the Software.

That flies straight in the face of this from the GPL-v3 preamble:

  [...] General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have
  the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for them
  if you wish), that you **receive source code or can get it if you want
  it**, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free
  programs, and that you know you can do these things.

# Emphasis is mine.

I've let Brother know via the Content Feedback shown for the download
and suggested they fix the discrepancy, preferably by distributing the
source code.

# Not holding my breath on anything getting actually done, but ... who
# knows, they might take notice.

BTW, the EULA does grant:

  [...] User a non-exclusive license: to reproduce and/or distribute
  (via Internet or in any other manner) the Software. Further, Brother
  grants User a non-exclusive license to modify, alter, translate or
  otherwise prepare derivative works of the Software and to reproduce
  and distribute (via Internet or in any other manner) such
  modification, alteration, translation or other derivative works for
  any purpose.

That's in line with the GPL but utterly useless without access to the
source code.

I did a quick check on the contents (btw, everything in usr/lib64 is a
copy of what's in usr/local/lib64, bloating the package by ~100%), but
all the libraries only seem to link to LGPL'd libraries (or GPL-v3 with
the a GCC Runtime Library Exception).  This makes me believe that
Brother can change the license to whatever it pleases (within the LGPL
limitations on debugging for reverse engineering purposes), assuming
they own all the other code that went into those libraries.

The libsane-brother_pdsseries backend uses some code from sanei/, but
all of that is GPL with a special exception.

  The exception is that, if you link a SANE library with other files
  to produce an executable, this does not by itself cause the
  resulting executable to be covered by the GNU General Public
  License.  Your use of that executable is in no way restricted on
  account of linking the SANE library code into it.

  This exception does not, however, invalidate any other reasons why
  the executable file might be covered by the GNU General Public
  License.

which is pretty much what the LGPL does too.

# The SANE licensing approach predates the LGPL, IIRC.

In short, I'd say that Brother made a very bad-tasting mistake labeling
their Debian packages as GPL.  Whether on purpose or not, I don't know,
but next time make sure to read the EULA before you click agree ;-(

Hope this clarifies,
-- 
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  

Re: [sane-devel] SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner

[m. allan noah]

I personally am of the opinion that Brother is in violation of our
license. However, our license is not strictly GPL, and the differences
were clearly not written by a lawyer. You could argue that we give
some space for a company to steal our work, and keep it from their
users. I vote with my money, and don't buy their products.

allan

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 11:21 AM, James A. Robinson
 wrote:
> I was wondering whether or not any of the developers here know the
> story behind the Brother scanner drivers?   They offer a Debian
> package that identifies itself as GPL, and that claims it is based
> on sane-backends.When I asked them about getting ahold the
> source (I want to port it to ARM), I got the stock "thank you for
> choosing...  unfortunately we cannot support all models..." answer.
>
> I can't tell if that means that
>
> (a) they aren't really obligated to release their driver under the
> GPL, and mislabeled the Debian package as such.
>
> (b) they are obligated because they derived it from GPLed code, and
> are not following their obligations under that license.
>
> I did specifically mention the GPL confusion, but they didn't
> bother to address that point in their reply.
>
> The copyright file from the debian binary package
> http://support.brother.com/g/b/downloadlist.aspx?c=us=en=pds6000_us_eu_as=128
> says:
>
> Name : brother-pds-sane
> Version : 1.0.0
> Release : 4
> Architecture: amd64
> Install Date: (not installed)
> Group : Applications/System
> Size : 14276902
> License : GPL
> Signature : (none)
> Source RPM : brother-pds-sane-1.0.0-4.src.rpm
> Build Date : 2015年05月28日 (週四) 16時34分37秒
> Build Host : Brother
> Relocations : (not relocatable)
> Packager : Brother Industries, Ltd.
> Vendor : Brother Industries, Ltd.
> Summary : SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner
> Description :
> SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner. It based on sane-backends, so
> we need install sane-backends package first.
>
> --
> sane-devel mailing list: sane-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org
> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
> Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject "unsubscribe your_password"
>  to sane-devel-requ...@lists.alioth.debian.org



-- 
"well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge
of my hand"

-- 
sane-devel mailing list: sane-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject "unsubscribe your_password"
 to sane-devel-requ...@lists.alioth.debian.org

[sane-devel] SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner

[James A. Robinson]

I was wondering whether or not any of the developers here know the
story behind the Brother scanner drivers?   They offer a Debian
package that identifies itself as GPL, and that claims it is based
on sane-backends.When I asked them about getting ahold the
source (I want to port it to ARM), I got the stock "thank you for
choosing...  unfortunately we cannot support all models..." answer.

I can't tell if that means that

(a) they aren't really obligated to release their driver under the
GPL, and mislabeled the Debian package as such.

(b) they are obligated because they derived it from GPLed code, and
are not following their obligations under that license.

I did specifically mention the GPL confusion, but they didn't
bother to address that point in their reply.

The copyright file from the debian binary package
http://support.brother.com/g/b/downloadlist.aspx?c=us=en=pds6000_us_eu_as=128
 says:

Name : brother-pds-sane
Version : 1.0.0
Release : 4
Architecture: amd64
Install Date: (not installed)
Group : Applications/System
Size : 14276902
License : GPL
Signature : (none)
Source RPM : brother-pds-sane-1.0.0-4.src.rpm
Build Date : 2015年05月28日 (週四) 16時34分37秒
Build Host : Brother
Relocations : (not relocatable)
Packager : Brother Industries, Ltd.
Vendor : Brother Industries, Ltd.
Summary : SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner
Description :
SANE-Backend for Brother PDS-series scanner. It based on sane-backends, so
we need install sane-backends package first.
-- 
sane-devel mailing list: sane-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject "unsubscribe your_password"
 to sane-devel-requ...@lists.alioth.debian.org