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Today's Topics:
1. Re: where to re-start (graceful person)
2. Re: where to re-start (Mihir Sanghavi)
3. Re: L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma' (Vasuvaj .)
4. Re: L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma' (Suryansu Ray)
5. Re: L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma' (Jay Vaidya)
6. Re: L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma' (Hera Moon)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:49:53 +0500
From: graceful person <leo12...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] where to re-start
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID:
<76938fb0907160549j755e5d67va7a6059808402...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear sir,
i have acquired the book and ready for further instructions.
thanks in advance
> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:26:53 -0400
> From: Mihir Sanghavi <msangh...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] where to re-start
> To: Sanskrit Mailing List <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <fc0bffd10907120526v7c89e79dyd4ad91a799342...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Dear Avnish,
>
> it will be imperative that your basic skills be rock-solid. Just
> because one has laukika reading capacity, does not not mean that
> he/she has rock-solid basic skills. I would suggest that you read M.R.
> Kale's A Higher Sanskrit Grammar from the beginning (the more you know
> the faster you will go through the book). That way you ensure that
> later on when you read serious Sanskrit texts and Siddhanta Kaumudi
> grammar, you will waste minimum amount of time referring back to the
> grammar. If you decide to start with Kale's book, let me know because
> there are some tips I have regarding the order in which the book
> should be read in my experience.
>
> Best,
>
> Mihir
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 3:59 AM, graceful person<leo12...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > dear scholars,
> >
> > i had studied sanskrit as a part of my curriculum for four years ,
> > which was about eight years back. Still i can read and understand the
> > normal stuff ( what we call as laukik sanskrit ). I seek your guidance
> > about where to restart or refresh my knowledge of sanskrit and atleast
> > develop some amount of speaking fluency.
> >
> > thanks in advance
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > renounce every that thing which limits you to work less than your
> capacity
> >
> > Avnish kumar mishra
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > nothing is always wrong, even a clock which has stopped working is
> > right twice a day
> > _______________________________________________
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE or customize your subscription or topics of interest,
> visit
> > http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/options/sanskrit
> > and follow instructions.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Mihir M Sanghavi
>
>
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:16:56 -0400
From: Mihir Sanghavi <msangh...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] where to re-start
To: Sanskrit Mailing List <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
Message-ID:
<fc0bffd10907160916o41d2eddbk39e167ea6ce38...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi Avnish,
first start with the alphabet/sandhi chapters as the prereqs. The
first real chapter is on declension. The book refers to various
affixes in this declension chapter frequently, and hence it is a good
idea to read the chapter on taddhita suffixes (or secondary nominal
suffixes) before reading the declension chapter, so you would not be
confused with what he is talking about there regarding various
affixes/suffixes. there is a lot of information in this book, and
hence it is a good idea to take your time through it. It might take up
to a year to properly go through the book and get the most out of it.
I personally rewrote the book on my own paper, because that helped me
memorize the information better. Now this is a grammar book. It is not
meant to teach the basic vocabularies, and neither does it have any
exercises/solutions. For that stuff, the free online sanskrit step by
step (just google it) is a great resource.
Best,
Mihir
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 8:49 AM, graceful person<leo12...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear sir,
> i have acquired the book and ready for further instructions.
> thanks in advance
>
>>
>> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:26:53 -0400
>> From: Mihir Sanghavi <msangh...@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] where to re-start
>> To: Sanskrit Mailing List <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
>> Message-ID:
>> ? ? ? ?<fc0bffd10907120526v7c89e79dyd4ad91a799342...@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Dear Avnish,
>>
>> it will be imperative that your basic skills be rock-solid. Just
>> because one has laukika reading capacity, does not not mean that
>> he/she has rock-solid basic skills. I would suggest that you read M.R.
>> Kale's A Higher Sanskrit Grammar from the beginning (the more you know
>> the faster you will go through the book). That way you ensure that
>> later on when you read serious Sanskrit texts and Siddhanta Kaumudi
>> grammar, you will waste minimum amount of time referring back to the
>> grammar. If you decide to start with Kale's book, let me know because
>> there are some tips I have regarding the order in which the book
>> should be read in my experience.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Mihir
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 3:59 AM, graceful person<leo12...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > dear scholars,
>> >
>> > i had studied sanskrit as a part of my curriculum for four years ,
>> > which was about eight years back. Still i can read and understand the
>> > normal stuff ( what we call as laukik sanskrit ). I seek your guidance
>> > about where to restart or refresh my knowledge of sanskrit and atleast
>> > develop some amount of speaking fluency.
>> >
>> > thanks in advance
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > renounce every that thing which limits you to work less than your
>> > capacity
>> >
>> > Avnish kumar mishra
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------
>> > nothing is always wrong, even a clock which has stopped working is
>> > right twice a day
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > To UNSUBSCRIBE or customize your subscription or topics of interest,
>> > visit
>> > http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/options/sanskrit
>> > and follow instructions.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mihir M Sanghavi
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or customize your subscription or topics of interest, visit
> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/options/sanskrit
> and follow instructions.
>
>
--
Mihir M Sanghavi
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 05:06:42 +0000
From: "Vasuvaj ." <vasu...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To: <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>, <nsvnarasi...@gmail.com>,
<deejayvai...@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <snt115-w16f1652775658653a79619a3...@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Namaste.
Due to various reasons , I couldn't send this mail earlier.
Sorry for the delay.
Hope all of you can read the writing in Devanagarii in the attached PDF file.
If not the 'crude' Roman transliteration is below
Hakaaram
panchamairyuktam anta:sthaabhishca samyutam .
Aurasyam
tam vijaaniiyaat kaNthyamaahurasamyutam ..
Paaniniiyashikshaa
16
Panchama = all the fifth consonants of each vargah
Anta:sthah= 'yaN' pratyaaharah ie ya, va ra, la,
The rule clearly states that if 'hakara' is followed by any of the above
alphabets, then it should NOT be pronounced as 'KANTHYAM" but pronounced as
'AURASYAM'
"akuhavisarjaniiyanaam kanthah".... by this we know that 'hakarah' is
pronounced from the 'kantha'
But how do we pronounce 'aurasya' hakaarah. None of the present day scholars
know it. It is lost. If any of the readers in this list, know or know any
scholar who knows how to pronounce 'Aurasya hakarah', do inform .
As this method of pronunciation is lost,we have to rely on the Vedic scholars
who learnt it orally from their acharyas.
As per the oral tradition, brahma is pronounced as bramha, prahlada is
pronounced as pralhadah, madhyahne is pronounced as madhyanhe and so on.
But if we apply the same logic, it is impossible to pronounce 'hyah' as 'yhah'
which means 'yesterday'.
Bhavadiiyah,
Vasuvaj
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:38:26
-0700
From: deejayvai...@yahoo.com
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
svasti venkatesha,
I would go with Sri. Bannanje Govindacharya's opinion, with some slight
modification as per shrI kamalesha pAThaka's reply to you.
(The modification being that disciples of horourable traditions can pronounce
words as per their tradition. Their tradition each creates grammatical
variations that are applicable only within their own traditional group.)
Nothing in the pANinIya shikShA or sUtras suggests that the order of 'h' and
the other consonant cn be interchanged. Indeed pANinIya sUtras suggest quite
clearly that 'h' is pronounced before.
The sUtras mentioned by shrI suma in reply to you are:
8.3.26 he mapare vA |
8.3.27 napare naH |
In both cases the anusvAra before the 'hm' or 'hn' is modified. If the 'h' was
not pronounced before the m, n in these combinations, the anusvAra would be
modified
automatically by "8.4.58 anusvArasya yayi parasavarNaH" and these two sUtras
become superfluous. Because we know that pANini does not make superfluous
sUtras, we know that the 'h' is pronounced before the 'm' and 'n' respectively.
shrI. suma's teacher is quite right in insisting the correct pronunciation of
the -mhm- and -nhn- combinations that are the subject of these sUtras. However,
note that both of these sUtras are optional rules signalled by the "vA"
kiM + hmalayati = (Option 1) kiM hmalayati ; (Option 2) kimhmalayati
kiM + hnute = (Option 1) kiM hnute ; (Option 2) kimhnute
(So I hope shrI suma's teacher allows both the anusvAra-h-m and the -m-h-m-
pronunciations.)
In any case for the original words 'hmalayati' or 'hnute' the order is that 'h'
is pronounced before the nasal consonant.
Now what may be the reason as to why some regional accents of saMskRta switch
the order of -hm- may have been reversed. By the time of the use of prAkRta
languages such as pAlI, the combination -mh- -Nh- etc., have become common.
e.g., the words tumhe, taNhA etc. (These combinations are never seen in
saMskRta.) In the spoken standard version of the modern language Marathi, the
combination -hm- is always converted to -mh-, etc., (e.g., brammha, Annhik,
AvvhAn, etc., instead of the saMskRta words brahma, Ahnika, AhvAna, etc.). This
is possibly a further development of this flow of phonetic change from the
prAkRta languages. (I think, the same flow is true regarding
kannaDa, but I am not sure.)
Our native (regional) languages strongly affect our saMskRta accents. Thus with
a respectful bow towards our rich and honourable mother-tongues, I suggest that
these regional language specialities are the reason why some speakers switch
the order of -hm- to -mh-, as you note.
vinIto
dhana~jjayaH
8.4.46
--- On Thu, 6/11/09, sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu
<sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu> wrote:
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:05:35 +0530
From: Venkatesh <nsvnarasi...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID:
<4c87afae0906100135y72fd5a5k5cfe4ecb68aed...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello all,
It's heartening to see a list where I can post my long standing question. Is
there any grammatical/shiksha/varNakrama/other dictate for swapped
pronounciation of 'h' and 'anunasika' in the words like brahmana, vahni,
ahna, etc.
We have many north Indian scholars who pronounce them as they are written.
At least on eminent scholar in Bangalore, Sri. Bannanje Govindacharya, very
authentically says that the swapped pronounciation is a fallacy. I cannot
believe that the entire gamut of Vedic scholars (particularly in
southern
India ), who preserve & revere Vedas more than their own life, could be that
horribly wrong.
A few who tried to answer the question quote, 'hakArannaNamaparanAsikAyaM"
fom taittirya prAtisakhya (21.14). The sUtra however, according to
tribhAShyaratna, vaidikAbharaNa, and padakramasAdana (of mAhiSheya)
commentaries, only introduces an anunAsika 'Ha'kAra after the Ha-kAra when
the later is followed by na/ma/Na.
Could some one kindly through more light on the reason for varied
prnounciation ?
Many regards
Venkatesh
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 04:44:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Suryansu Ray <suryansu...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To: Sanskrit Mailing List <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <108271.33871...@web53308.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
To all who get Sanskrit questions:
?
Gentlemen and Ladies,
?
Suddenly a large number of questions on Sanskrit are being asked from people of
dubious status. I feel that this is a convenient ploy to get your email address
and other particulars. Before replying to these Sanskrit queries, please verify
from where they are coming. If they are students of Sanskrit of any university,
they can easily get?the answers from their professors or from their
well-equipped libraries. To get the meaning of arjuna, they need not come to
you through the Internet, when they can consult Monier-Williams and Apte.
?
With best wishes,
Dr. Suryansu Ray.
--- On Fri, 7/17/09, Vasuvaj . <vasu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Vasuvaj . <vasu...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu, nsvnarasi...@gmail.com, deejayvai...@yahoo.com
Date: Friday, July 17, 2009, 10:36 AM
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Namaste.
Due to various reasons , I couldn't send this mail earlier.
Sorry for the delay.
Hope all of you can read the writing in Devanagarii in the attached PDF file.
If not the 'crude' Roman transliteration is below
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Hakaaram panchamairyuktam anta:sthaabhishca samyutam .
?Aurasyam tam vijaaniiyaat kaNthyamaahurasamyutam ..
?
Paaniniiyashikshaa 16
Panchama = all the fifth consonants of each vargah
Anta:sthah= 'yaN' pratyaaharah ie ? ? ya, va ra, la,
The rule clearly? states that if 'hakara' is followed by any of the above
alphabets, then it should? NOT be pronounced as 'KANTHYAM" but pronounced as
'AURASYAM'
"akuhavisarjaniiyanaam kanthah".... by this we know that 'hakarah' is
pronounced from the 'kantha'
But how do we pronounce 'aurasya' hakaarah. None of the present day scholars
know it. It is lost. If any of the readers in this list, know or know any
scholar who knows how to pronounce 'Aurasya hakarah', do inform .
As this method of pronunciation is lost,we have to rely on the Vedic scholars
who learnt it orally from their acharyas.
As per the oral tradition, brahma is pronounced as bramha, prahlada is
pronounced as pralhadah, madhyahne is pronounced as madhyanhe and so on.
But if we apply the same logic, it is impossible to pronounce 'hyah' as 'yhah'
which means 'yesterday'.
Bhavadiiyah,
Vasuvaj
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:38:26
-0700
From: deejayvai...@yahoo.com
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
svasti venkatesha,
I would go with Sri. Bannanje Govindacharya's opinion, with some slight
modification as per shrI kamalesha pAThaka's reply to you.
(The modification being that disciples of horourable traditions can pronounce
words as per their tradition. Their tradition each creates grammatical
variations that are applicable only within their own traditional group.)
Nothing in the pANinIya shikShA or sUtras suggests that the order of 'h' and
the other consonant cn be interchanged. Indeed pANinIya sUtras suggest quite
clearly that 'h' is pronounced before.
The sUtras mentioned by shrI suma in reply to you are:
8.3.26 he mapare vA |
8.3.27 napare naH |
In both cases the anusvAra before the 'hm' or 'hn' is modified. If the 'h' was
not pronounced before the m, n in these combinations, the anusvAra would be
modified automatically by "8.4.58 anusvArasya yayi parasavarNaH" and these two
sUtras become superfluous. Because we know that pANini does not make
superfluous sUtras, we know that the 'h' is pronounced before the 'm' and 'n'
respectively.
shrI. suma's teacher is quite right in insisting the correct pronunciation of
the -mhm- and -nhn- combinations that are the subject of these sUtras. However,
note that both of these sUtras are optional rules signalled by the "vA"
kiM + hmalayati = (Option 1) kiM hmalayati ; (Option 2) kimhmalayati
kiM + hnute = (Option 1) kiM hnute ; (Option 2) kimhnute
(So I hope shrI suma's teacher allows both the anusvAra-h-m and the -m-h-m-
pronunciations.)
In any case for the original words 'hmalayati' or 'hnute' the order is that 'h'
is pronounced before the nasal consonant.
Now what may be the reason as to why some regional accents of saMskRta switch
the order of -hm- may have been reversed. By the time of the use of prAkRta
languages such as pAlI, the combination -mh- -Nh- etc., have become common.
e.g., the words tumhe, taNhA etc. (These combinations are never seen in
saMskRta.) In the spoken standard version of the modern language Marathi, the
combination -hm- is always converted to -mh-, etc., (e.g., brammha, Annhik,
AvvhAn, etc., instead of the saMskRta words brahma, Ahnika, AhvAna, etc.). This
is possibly a further development of this flow of phonetic change from the
prAkRta languages. (I think, the same flow is true regarding kannaDa, but I am
not sure.)
Our native (regional) languages strongly affect our saMskRta accents. Thus with
a respectful bow towards our rich and honourable mother-tongues, I suggest that
these regional language specialities are the reason why some speakers switch
the order of -hm- to -mh-, as you note.
vinIto
dhana~jjayaH
8.4.46
--- On Thu, 6/11/09, sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu
<sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu> wrote:
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:05:35 +0530
From: Venkatesh <nsvnarasi...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID:
??? <4c87afae0906100135y72fd5a5k5cfe4ecb68aed...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello all,
It's heartening to see a list where I can post my long standing question. Is
there any grammatical/shiksha/varNakrama/other dictate for swapped
pronounciation of? 'h' and 'anunasika' in the words like brahmana, vahni,
ahna, etc.
We have many north Indian scholars who pronounce them as they are written.
At least on eminent scholar in Bangalore, Sri. Bannanje Govindacharya, very
authentically says that the swapped pronounciation is a fallacy. I cannot
believe that the entire gamut of Vedic scholars (particularly in southern
India ), who preserve & revere Vedas more than their own life, could be that
horribly wrong.
A few who tried to answer the question quote, 'hakArannaNamaparanAsikAyaM"
fom taittirya prAtisakhya (21.14). The sUtra however, according to
tribhAShyaratna, vaidikAbharaNa, and padakramasAdana (of mAhiSheya)
commentaries, only introduces an anunAsika 'Ha'kAra after the Ha-kAra when
the later is followed by na/ma/Na.
Could some one kindly through more light on the reason for varied
prnounciation ?
Many regards
Venkatesh
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you.
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
_______________________________________________
To UNSUBSCRIBE or customize your subscription or topics of interest, visit
http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/options/sanskrit
and follow instructions.
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:30:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <deejayvai...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu, nsvnarasi...@gmail.com, "Vasuvaj ."
<vasu...@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <509241.3131...@web84308.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
svasti vasuvaj-vara,
aurasya 'h' is the voiced breath without constricting the kaNTha (velar
region of the back of the mouth). Many Indians, especially those who
take care to pronounce the 'h' BEFORE the 'm' in 'brahma' already
pronounce this 'h' without constricting the kaNTha. So no special
effort is needed to teach these people. (Also your example of the
saMskRta "hyaH" or the word hAM in hindI, hyAlA in marAThI, etc.)? The deep
sigh of tiredness "hhhhh" is aurasya (though it is sometimes unvoiced).
Most Indians also know to pronounce the kaNThya version.
I believe that arabic still maintains the lexical distinction between Haa'
(kaNTha - more strongly articulated than saMskRita, more like the 'k/h' in
high-draviDian tamizh maha [meaning son])
and haa' (aurasya). This distinction is nearly lost for loan words in
hindi/urdu, where many people have to actually say "big ha", "small ha"
while describing spelling, instead of just listening to a clear sound
and writing it. For example, most hindi/urdu speakers do not
distinguish between the aurasya hAlA (meaning liquour) and the kaNThya
hAlA (meaning "at present"). But highly educated speakers can make the
distinction.
This separate issue:
> As per the oral tradition, brahma is pronounced as bramha,
> prahlada is
pronounced as pralhadah, madhyahne is
> pronounced as madhyanhe and so on.
While I agree that such an oral tradition exists, including in my
family, this is the simple flow of apabraMsha. We cannot escape the
pervading influence of our mother-languages especially in words that appear
to be written the same with the same spelling in both saMskRta and our
mother-language. An aside: as a marAThI speaker, my family tradition
often uses the pronunciation sauMskrut.h (halanta, also note 'ru')
instead of saMskRta (akArAnta). While I have great love for my family
tradition, I think I should just keep it there :-)
(Just to clarify: While speaking in marAThI, it is most correct for me to say
"sauMskrut" - saying "saMskRta" is incorrect. But the opposite is the case
while trying to read saMskRta aloud.)
Regards and best wishes,
Dhananjay
--- On Fri, 7/17/09, Vasuvaj . <vasu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Vasuvaj . <vasu...@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu, nsvnarasi...@gmail.com, deejayvai...@yahoo.com
Date: Friday, July 17, 2009, 1:06 AM
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Namaste.
Due to various reasons , I couldn't send this mail earlier.
Sorry for the delay.
Hope all of you can read the writing in Devanagarii in the attached PDF file.
If not the 'crude' Roman transliteration is below
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Hakaaram
panchamairyuktam anta:sthaabhishca samyutam .
?Aurasyam
tam vijaaniiyaat kaNthyamaahurasamyutam ..
?
Paaniniiyashikshaa
16
Panchama = all the fifth consonants of each vargah
Anta:sthah= 'yaN' pratyaaharah ie ? ? ya, va ra, la,
The
rule clearly? states that if 'hakara' is followed by any of the above
alphabets, then it should? NOT be pronounced as 'KANTHYAM" but
pronounced as 'AURASYAM'
"akuhavisarjaniiyanaam kanthah".... by this we know that 'hakarah' is
pronounced from the 'kantha'
But
how do we pronounce 'aurasya' hakaarah. None of the present day
scholars know it. It is lost. If any of the readers in this list, know
or know any scholar who knows how to pronounce 'Aurasya hakarah', do
inform .
As this method of pronunciation is lost,we have to rely on the Vedic scholars
who learnt it orally from their acharyas.
As
per the oral tradition, brahma is pronounced as bramha, prahlada is
pronounced as pralhadah, madhyahne is pronounced as madhyanhe and so on.
But if we apply the same logic, it is impossible to pronounce 'hyah' as 'yhah'
which means 'yesterday'.
Bhavadiiyah,
Vasuvaj
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:36:45 +0200
From: "Hera Moon" <heram...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To: "'Sanskrit Mailing List'" <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <4a609a8b.0710660a.454b.ffffd...@mx.google.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear sincere seekers of Knowledge and fellow Sanskrit friends,
I feel the need of telling you how much I thank you all for sharing the
valuable knowledge (be it para or apara) and texts.
Reading Hitopadesha with the vocabulary aid, for example, was very helpful
in consolidating my grammar.
I used to ask myself why I keep hearing Bramha (from all the mantra
recordings I have), not Brahma. Now I know at least that it's an object of
discussion.
The quotes and reflections regarding the meaning of arjuna led me to a
deeper understanding of kR^iShNArjunasaMvAda (I learned this kind of
spelling from you guys).
One of you is helping me with explanations and texts on a one-to-one basis.
Please keep up the good work.
Have a great summer!
Hera
_____
Von: sanskrit-boun...@cs.utah.edu [mailto:sanskrit-boun...@cs.utah.edu] Im
Auftrag von Suryansu Ray
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. Juli 2009 13:45
An: Sanskrit Mailing List
Betreff: [!! SPAM] Re: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To all who get Sanskrit questions:
Gentlemen and Ladies,
Suddenly a large number of questions on Sanskrit are being asked from people
of dubious status. I feel that this is a convenient ploy to get your email
address and other particulars. Before replying to these Sanskrit queries,
please verify from where they are coming. If they are students of Sanskrit
of any university, they can easily get the answers from their professors or
from their well-equipped libraries. To get the meaning of arjuna, they need
not come to you through the Internet, when they can consult Monier-Williams
and Apte.
With best wishes,
Dr. Suryansu Ray.
--- On Fri, 7/17/09, Vasuvaj . <vasu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Vasuvaj . <vasu...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu, nsvnarasi...@gmail.com, deejayvai...@yahoo.com
Date: Friday, July 17, 2009, 10:36 AM
Namaste.
Due to various reasons , I couldn't send this mail earlier.
Sorry for the delay.
Hope all of you can read the writing in Devanagarii in the attached PDF
file.
If not the 'crude' Roman transliteration is below
Hakaaram panchamairyuktam anta:sthaabhishca samyutam .
Aurasyam tam vijaaniiyaat kaNthyamaahurasamyutam ..
Paaniniiyashikshaa 16
Panchama = all the fifth consonants of each vargah
Anta:sthah= 'yaN' pratyaaharah ie ya, va ra, la,
The rule clearly states that if 'hakara' is followed by any of the above
alphabets, then it should NOT be pronounced as 'KANTHYAM" but pronounced as
'AURASYAM'
"akuhavisarjaniiyanaam kanthah".... by this we know that 'hakarah' is
pronounced from the 'kantha'
But how do we pronounce 'aurasya' hakaarah. None of the present day scholars
know it. It is lost. If any of the readers in this list, know or know any
scholar who knows how to pronounce 'Aurasya hakarah', do inform .
As this method of pronunciation is lost,we have to rely on the Vedic
scholars who learnt it orally from their acharyas.
As per the oral tradition, brahma is pronounced as bramha, prahlada is
pronounced as pralhadah, madhyahne is pronounced as madhyanhe and so on.
But if we apply the same logic, it is impossible to pronounce 'hyah' as
'yhah' which means 'yesterday'.
Bhavadiiyah,
Vasuvaj
_____
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:38:26
-0700
From: deejayvai...@yahoo.com
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
svasti venkatesha,
I would go with Sri. Bannanje Govindacharya's opinion, with some slight
modification as per shrI kamalesha pAThaka's reply to you.
(The modification being that disciples of horourable traditions can
pronounce words as per their tradition. Their tradition each creates
grammatical variations that are applicable only within their own traditional
group.)
Nothing in the pANinIya shikShA or sUtras suggests that the order of 'h' and
the other consonant cn be interchanged. Indeed pANinIya sUtras suggest quite
clearly that 'h' is pronounced before.
The sUtras mentioned by shrI suma in reply to you are:
8.3.26 he mapare vA |
8.3.27 napare naH |
In both cases the anusvAra before the 'hm' or 'hn' is modified. If the 'h'
was not pronounced before the m, n in these combinations, the anusvAra would
be modified automatically by "8.4.58 anusvArasya yayi parasavarNaH" and
these two sUtras become superfluous. Because we know that pANini does not
make superfluous sUtras, we know that the 'h' is pronounced before the 'm'
and 'n' respectively.
shrI. suma's teacher is quite right in insisting the correct pronunciation
of the -mhm- and -nhn- combinations that are the subject of these sUtras.
However, note that both of these sUtras are optional rules signalled by the
"vA"
kiM + hmalayati = (Option 1) kiM hmalayati ; (Option 2) kimhmalayati
kiM + hnute = (Option 1) kiM hnute ; (Option 2) kimhnute
(So I hope shrI suma's teacher allows both the anusvAra-h-m and the -m-h-m-
pronunciations.)
In any case for the original words 'hmalayati' or 'hnute' the order is that
'h' is pronounced before the nasal consonant.
Now what may be the reason as to why some regional accents of saMskRta
switch the order of -hm- may have been reversed. By the time of the use of
prAkRta languages such as pAlI, the combination -mh- -Nh- etc., have become
common. e.g., the words tumhe, taNhA etc. (These combinations are never seen
in saMskRta.) In the spoken standard version of the modern language Marathi,
the combination -hm- is always converted to -mh-, etc., (e.g., brammha,
Annhik, AvvhAn, etc., instead of the saMskRta words brahma, Ahnika, AhvAna,
etc.). This is possibly a further development of this flow of phonetic
change from the prAkRta languages. (I think, the same flow is true regarding
kannaDa, but I am not sure.)
Our native (regional) languages strongly affect our saMskRta accents. Thus
with a respectful bow towards our rich and honourable mother-tongues, I
suggest that these regional language specialities are the reason why some
speakers switch the order of -hm- to -mh-, as you note.
vinIto
dhana~jjayaH
8.4.46
--- On Thu, 6/11/09, sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu
<sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu> wrote:
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:05:35 +0530
From: Venkatesh <nsvnarasi...@gmail.com
<http://mc/compose?to=nsvnarasi...@gmail.com> >
Subject: [Sanskrit] L2: Pronounciation of 'brahma'
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu <http://mc/compose?to=sansk...@cs.utah.edu>
Message-ID:
<4c87afae0906100135y72fd5a5k5cfe4ecb68aed...@mail.gmail.com
<http://mc/compose?to=4c87afae0906100135y72fd5a5k5cfe4ecb68aed...@mail.gmail
.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello all,
It's heartening to see a list where I can post my long standing question. Is
there any grammatical/shiksha/varNakrama/other dictate for swapped
pronounciation of 'h' and 'anunasika' in the words like brahmana, vahni,
ahna, etc.
We have many north Indian scholars who pronounce them as they are written.
At least on eminent scholar in Bangalore, Sri. Bannanje Govindacharya, very
authentically says that the swapped pronounciation is a fallacy. I cannot
believe that the entire gamut of Vedic scholars (particularly in southern
India ), who preserve & revere Vedas more than their own life, could be that
horribly wrong.
A few who tried to answer the question quote, 'hakArannaNamaparanAsikAyaM"
fom taittirya prAtisakhya (21.14). The sUtra however, according to
tribhAShyaratna, vaidikAbharaNa, and padakramasAdana (of mAhiSheya)
commentaries, only introduces an anunAsika 'Ha'kAra after the Ha-kAra when
the later is followed by na/ma/Na.
Could some one kindly through more light on the reason for varied
prnounciation ?
Many regards
Venkatesh
_____
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that
<http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290> 's right
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