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Today's Topics:
1. vadha or -hatyA : pANinIya rules (Jay Vaidya)
2. Response to Query on Udyoga sarga 15 - shloka 13 - lakAra
usage (Vikram Santurkar)
3. Quiz 19 Answers (Vis Tekumalla)
4. udyogaparvam - sarga 15 - 31 (Sai Susarla)
5. Re: vadha or -hatyA : pANinIya rules (Aarathi Sankaran)
6. Re: vadha or -hatyA : pANinIya rules (Aarathi Sankaran)
7. some remarks on quizz # 19 answers. (peekayar)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:32:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] vadha or -hatyA : pANinIya rules
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I was not able to find any independent dhAtu "vadh"
meaning "to kill". Can anyone with the complete
dhAtupATha please confirm?
>From what I could ascertain, "vadh" forms appear in
place of "han" (to kill) in specific circumstances.
Here are the pANinIya rules generating the "-hatyA"
ending and "vadha".
"-hatyA"
Is necessarily the second part of a samAsa, never to
be used alone.
pA. sU. 3. 1. 108 | hanasta cha |
meaning (based on context): To denote an action
(bhAve), when using as the second part of a samAsa
(supi), "han" becomes "hat" and gets the "kyap"
pratyaya. Not allowed if upasarga prefix is present.
examples from kAshikA :
(1) correct use: brahmahatyA
(2) no samAsa counterexample: ghAtaH
(3) upasarga counterexample : praghAtaH
"vadha"
pA. sU. 3. 3. 76 | hanashcha vadhaH |
meaning (based on context) : To denote an action
(bhAve), han is changed to vadh and gets the ap
pratyaya. Not allowed if other kAraka meaning (e.g.
karma) is intended. Not allowed if upasarga prefix is
present.
examples from kAshikA :
(1) correct use: vadho dasyUnA.m
(2) non-bhAve counterexample: ghAtaH (in the right
context, ghAtaH may mean the object of the killing,
etc. depending on the kAraka intended)
(3) upasarga counterexample: praghAtaH
Thus at least at pANini's time, the choice of "vadha"
or "-hatya" was at least partly based on
grammatical (rather than semantic/meaning) rules.
Thus:
(1) "ghAta" can be used most broadly, in bhAve sense
or other kAraka sense, with or without upasarga
prefixes.
(2) "vadha" can be used only in bhAve sense, within
samAsa compounds or separately, only without upasarga
prefixes.
(3) "-hatyA" ending can be used only in the bhAve
sense, only within samAsa compounds, only without
upasarga prefixes.
The value judgments implicit to "hatyA" and "vadha"
may have differed at other times in sa.nskR^ita.
Indeed the kAshikA examples (only about 1000 years
old, unlike pANini) of brahmahatyA and ashvahatyA are
of unjustified killing; the examples of
vadhashchorANA.m, vadho dasyUnA.m are of justified
killing. However, the amarakoshha (still newer) makes
no distinction between "vadha" and other words for
killing. Modern languages, as we said before, have
their own shades of meaning attached based on current
usage.
dhana.njayaH
> > From: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > There is some controversy ...
> > hatyaa ...
> > vadha ...
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:26:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Vikram Santurkar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Response to Query on Udyoga sarga 15 - shloka 13
- lakAra usage
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Namaste dhanaMjayaH,
I was on vacation last month and upon return, found several queries on the latest
sarga.
My response is given below.
bhavadIyaH
vikramaH
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jay Vaidya
>Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 12:05 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [Sanskrit] Query RE udyoga. shloka 13. What lakAra to use:
>wishes versus facts
>
>
>This concerns Sai's current udyogaparvam shloka (#13).
>This question is not regarding translation but rather
>content of the verse.
>
>Sai writes:
>
> > Dr. sarasvati mohan mahodayAyAH paryavekShaNe SrI
> > vikrama santurkarasya anuvAdaH
> >
> > shlokaH 13
> > nAsureShu na deveShu tulyo bhavitumarhasi .
> > sarveShA.n teja Adatsva svena vIryeNa darshanAt .
> > na te pramukhataH sthAtu.n kashchidichchhati
> > vIryavAn .. 13..\
> > ...
> > na=not;
> > kashchit=anyone;
> > sthAtu.n=to stand;
> > ichchhati=wishes;
> > ...
> > anuvAdaH
> > Indraani to Nahusha: You do not deserve to be equal
> > to auras, devas.
> > >From the display of your brilliance, you absorb
> > everyone's strength.
> > Eventhough others are valorous, not even a few wish
> > to be established
> > as the lord.
>
> >From the context, it appears that indrANI (with
>ulterior motives, we know) is telling nahushha what he
>SHOULD be rather than what he is currently. "You
>deserve to be equal to..." etc., meaning currently
>nahushha falls short.
>
>That is why she implores/orders him "Adatsva"="Take
>away!" in loT, the imperitive, and does not inform him
>"Adatse"="you take away" in laT.
>
>Given that, I expect from context, not words, that the
>last line should be "... not anybody SHOULD wish to be
>established in your face... "
>
>By the context, she is trying to goad him into having
>the sages as his steeds (previous few verses) -- she
>says his station currently is not respectable enough.
>
>Yet the text clearly is laT "ichchhati" not loT
>"ichchhatu", i.e., "not anybody wishes" rather than
>"not anybody SHOULD wish". Well, if already nobody
>wishes to establish themselves in nahushha's face, why
>should nahushha bother doing anything more?
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>dhanaMjayaH
Adatse [laT] appears a slightly better fit than Adatsva [loT] in this context. However
the available MBh text from Sai's Sanskrit list website shows Adatsva in this position.
Another reading of MBh is available from Gita press which is as follows.
nAsureShu na deveShu tulyo bhavitumarhasi .
sarveShA.n teja Adatse svena vIryeNa darshanAt .
na te pramukhataH sthAtu.n kashchichChaknoti vIryavAn
In that reading the translation would be
"You do not deserve to be equal to Asuras and devas. From the display of your
brilliance you take away everyone's strength. Anyone powerful is not able to stand in
front of you"
vikramaH
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:46:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Vis Tekumalla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Quiz 19 Answers
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part --------------
Translate into Sanskrit
1. Before the bridegroom’s party arrives, Maalati must go to the temple
to make a ritual offering to goddess Gouri for continuous good luck in
her marriage.
yAvat sam.bandhino na parApatanti tAvat mAlatyA devAlaya.m gantavyam,
sa.mbhavatA niyamena bhagavatI gaurI.m pUjitu.m, vaivAhika jIvane
nirantara saubhAgyAyArtha.m -------Vis Tekumalla.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Varavargasya aagamanaat purvam, maalatii tasyaaH vivahe
nirantara-bhaagya-praaptiarthaM gauriideviim yathaavidhi
upaasayanaarthaM mandiram gacchet.------PK Ramakrishnan
__________________________________________________________________
2. Seize his clothes, arrest him and his mistress, and tie him up
with chains, while I call his wife.
Vis Tekumalla:
gR^ihIta etasya vasana.m sa.myamya eta.m veshya.m etasya cha,
badhAna eta.m shR^inkhalaiH, yAvat aham asya bhAryAm AhUya kathayAmi.
While I was trying to translate this I ran into a problem. I wanted
to say, arrest these two in Sanskrit (because it flows better) but
I was not sure if I could say - sa.myamya etau - because etau is
masculine, and we are trying to arrest a man and a woman. I vaguely
recall from my high school years that in such situations the
masculine gender dominates the sentence but I was not sure.
Can someone state the rule please?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PK Ramakrishnan:
tasya vastraaNi gR^ihiiSva. taM tasya jaariNiiM cha gR^ihiitvaa shR^ii~Nghalayaa
bandhanaM kuru. yaavat ahaM tasya bhaaryaaM aahvayaami.
_____________________________________________________________________
3. Please complete with your own fourth line:
ko hi bhAraH samarthAnA.m
kim dUra.m vyavasAyinAm |
ko videshaH suvidyAnA.m
--------------------------------- ||
ko hi bhAraH samarthAnA.m
kim dUra.m vyavasAyinAm |
ko videshaH suvidyAnA.m
kaH paraH priyavAdinAm||-------- Original (Chanakya)
ko hi bhAraH samarthAnA.m
kim dUra.m vyavasAyinAm |
ko videshaH suvidyAnA.m
kim asAdhya.m sasmitANAm ||-------- Vis Tekumalla
ko hi bhAraH samarthAnA.m (this should read ko.atibhAraH samarthAnAm)
kim dUra.m vyavasAyinAm |
ko videshaH suvidyAnA.m
kaH paraH priyavaadinaam ||-------PK Ramakrishnan
_____________________________________________________________
Translate into English:
4. jAlamArgeNa pashyamaH.
Let us watch through the window.----- Vis Tekumalla
Let us see through the window.------PK Ramakrishnan
_____________________________________________________________
5. kim atrabhavati mayA pariNita pUrvA?
Did I marry this woman before?------ Vis Tekumalla
Have I married you earlier ? ------- PK Ramakrishnan
_______________________________________________________________
6. madamUrkhatAbhimAnI duShkulataishvarya sa.myukttaH.
soyamanUDhAbhrAtA rA~jaH shAlaH shakAra ityukttaH..
Vis Tekumalla:
A man who is the brother of a king’s mistress, i.e., the brother-in-law
of a king through a woman to whom he is not regularly married (anUDhAbhrAtA),
a person who gets to be rich and powerful through parleying his sister’s relationship
with the king, and who openly displays false pride,idiocy, and vanity - is called a
shakAra.
Mr. Ramakrishnan is offering two corrections to the shloka (please see his answer
below).
They are:
sa.myukttaH to read sa.myuktaH, and rA~jaH to read rA~j~naH
While I agree my rA~jaH transliteration is wrong, I am not sure about sa.myukttaH
being wrong.
I transliterated the shloka from Devanagari exactly as given in Apte’s under the word
shakAra.
Could Apte’s spelling be incorrect?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PK Ramakrishnan:
The version should be corrected as below:
madamUrkhatAbhimAnI duShkulataishvaryasa.myuktaH.
soyamanUDhAbhrAtA rA~j~naH shAlaH shakAra ityukttaH..
He is called a shAkala who is the brother of a not regularly married
wife of a king, vainglorious, of a low family and raised to power
(by reason of his association with the king).
________________________________________________________________
7. shlokaH (samskR^ite likhan.tu kR^ipayA etasya shlokasya tAtparya.m)
shUnyepi guNavattAmAtanvAnaH svakIyaguNajAlaiH.
vivarANi mudrayandrAgUrNAyuriva sajjano jayati..
Vis Tekumalla:
sajjanasya suguNAH tathA vinigUhati kimapi doshAH santi api
Tasya vyaktitve, yathA UrNavAbhiH Ashu vayati tasya jAlam
pratichChAdayatum ChidrAni.
shUnyepi = open space/hole in character; guNavattA = excellence/virtue;
Atan = spread/stretch; vAnaH = weaving/hole in the wall; svakIya = own;
jAla = net/web; vivaram = hole/open space; mudray = close/close over;
drAg = quickly; UrNAyu = spider; iva = like (a spider);
sajjanaH = good person; jayati = wins/prevails
A good person prevails with his overall excellence/virtues that would
work as a web that spreads to cover any deficiencies (holes) that may
exist in his character - just like a spider weaving a web quickly
covering up open spaces/holes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PK Ramakrishnan:
Even if devoid of good qualities (in a person) a good person excels
stamping his many good qualities (on that person) like a spider making
holes with its thread.
In question 7 many shleshaas are used effectively.
1. shuunya means devoid of (good qualities) and also empty space.
2. gunavattaa means possessing good qualities (by a sajjana) and possessing threads by
a spider.
3. tanvaanaH means making and also stretching.
4. svakiiya means inherent (in a good person) and inside a spider.
5. guNajaala means plenty of good qualities (of a good person) and nets of thread (of
a spider).
6. vivaraaNi means faults (of a person) and holes (in a spider net)
7.mudrayan means stamping out (faults of a person) and covering the holes by a spider.
8. draag means immediately and this applies both to sajjana and spider.
A very good shloka I have seen.
___________________________________________________________________
Fun Questions
8. kena likhita mahAbhArataH? (Mahabharata was written by who?)
gaNeshena.
mahAbhArataH kevala.m kathApayate vyAseNa, parantu kathA likhita
gaNeshena.
(Mahabharata was narrated by Vyasa, but the story was actually written
down on paper, i.e., possibly palm leaves, by Ganesha)----Vis Tekumalla
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vyaasena.------- PK Ramakrishnan
________________________________________________________________
9. Is this Sanskrit sentence correct? Please explain your answer.
tataH pravishati aru.ndhatI kaushalyA ka~nchukI cha |
Vis Tekumalla:
Translates to – then enter Arundhati, Kaushalya, and the chambermaid – therefore,
pravishanti (the bahuvachanam or the plural) rather than pravishati
(ekavachanam or the singular), seems appropriate. However,I have read in a Sanskrit
primer
that the rule about the verb agreeing with the subject is modified when the subject
consists
of a number of coordinated items. Also, it says that such sentences are constructed
with the verb preceding the subject. A couple more examples given in that book:
tad ida.m tAvad gR^ihyatAm AbharaNa.m dhanush cha (not gR^ihyetAm) –
so just take this decoration and this bow.
prabhavati prAyashaH kumArINA.m janayitA daiva.m (not prabhavataH) —
what generally governs young girls is their father and their fate.
I am not sure if going singular in such situations is a rule
in and of itself, or it’s just an option. Can someone please throw
more light on this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PK Ramakrishnan:
atra pravishati iti ekavachanam na uchitam. pravishanti iti bhavitavyam.
_________________________________________________________________
10. eShAm paurANa strIpuruShANAm mAtarapitarau kau? (Who are the
parents of the following men and women of puraana stories?)
Vis Tekumalla:
(a) draupadI ----------------drupadaH, kokilAdevI
(b) subhadrA----------------vasudevaH, rohiNI
(c) shuka mahaR^ishi------vyAsaH, apsarA ghR^itAchI (apsarA menakAyAH bhaginI)
(d) mArIcha (rAmAyaNe mAyAmR^igaH)------sundaH, tATakA (I always thought
his dad’s name is Sunanda, but the valmikiramayan.net site says it is Sunda).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PK Ramakrishnan:
(a) draupadI - drupadaH and who?
(b) subhadrA - vasudeva and rohinii
(c) shuka mahaR^ishi - vyaasa and ghritaachii
(d) mArIcha (rAmAyaNe mAyAmR^igaH) – sundaa and taatakaa
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sai Susarla)
Subject: [Sanskrit] udyogaparvam - sarga 15 - 31
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Dr. sarasvati mohan mahodayAyAH paryavekShaNe SrI vikrama santurkarasya anuvAdaH
shlokaH 31
nApaH praveShTu.n shakShyAmi kShayo me.atra bhaviShyati .
sharaNa.n tvAM prapanno.asmi svasti te.astu mahAdyute .. 31..\
padavibhaagaH
nApaH praveShTu.n shakShyAmi kShayo me.atra bhaviShyati .
sharaNa.n tvAM prapanno.asmi svasti te.astu mahAdyute ..
anvayaH
ApaH praveShTu.n na shakShyAmi. me atra kShayaH bhaviShyati .
tvAM sharaNa.n prapannaH asmi. mahAdyute svasti te astu ..
pratipadaarthaH
ApaH=water;
praveShTu.n=to enter;
na=not;
shakShyAmi=can do;
me=for me;
atra=here;
kShayaH=destruction;
bhaviShyati=will be;
tvAM=to you;
sharaNa.n=protection;
prapannaH=seeking,resorting;
asmi=I am;
mahAdyute=O great one;
svasti=best;
te=to you;
astu=may it be;
anuvAdaH
Agni-deva to Brihaspati: I cannot enter water. For me there is destruction.
I am seeking your protection. O great one, may you be blessed.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:55:36 -0500
From: Aarathi Sankaran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] vadha or -hatyA : pANinIya rules
To: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
The BrhaddhAturUpAvali does not list an independent dhAtu 'vadh' nor is
it listed with 'han'. The only places 'vadh' has been used, as pointed
out by shri dhananjay, are as a substitute for 'han' in liN^ and luN^. I
do not understand why Apte dictionary lists 'vadh' dhAtu as 1st
conjugation with 'vadhati' as the form.
Aarathi.
Jay Vaidya wrote:
> I was not able to find any independent dhAtu "vadh"
> meaning "to kill". Can anyone with the complete
> dhAtupATha please confirm?
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:32:06 -0500
From: Aarathi Sankaran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] vadha or -hatyA : pANinIya rules
To: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
The dhAtupATha also does not list 'vadh'.
Aarathi.
Jay Vaidya wrote:
> I was not able to find any independent dhAtu "vadh"
> meaning "to kill". Can anyone with the complete
> dhAtupATha please confirm?
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] some remarks on quizz # 19 answers.
To: sanskrit digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
For vivaraaNi mudrayan I had given the meaning as -
a good person excels in stamping his many good qualities (on that person)
This should have been -
a good person excels in stamping out the faults of the other person.
In Vis Tekumalla's answer to quesion 3 he has given
the 4th paadaa as -
kim asAdhya.m sasmitANAm ||--------
The Laghu and Guru letters are marked below.
4th paada L L G G G L G G
But look at the other paadas -
1st paada U L U U L U U U
2nd paada U U U L L U L U
3rd paada U L U U L U U U
Here the fifth syllable in all paadaas should be
Laghu, whereas it is Guru in the answer given.
I am giving the definition of a shloka or
anuSTubh metre. I have quoted this earlier also.
pa~nchamaM laghu sarvatra saptamaM dvichaturthayoH .
SaSThaM guru vijaaniiyaat
etat shlokasya lakShaNam..
1. Sarvatra means in all paadaas.
The fifth should be laghu.
2. In the 2nd and 4th paadaas,
the7th syllable should be laghu.
3. The 6th syllable (in all paadaas)
should be guru.
This is the lakSaNa of a shloka.
According to this there are two mistakes in the
fourth paada given by Sri Tekumalla -
5th and 7th syllables are guru instead of laghu.
Regards.
PKRamakrishnan
---------------------------------
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