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Today's Topics:
1. [Sanskrit]on j?- (Mitchell Ginsberg)
2. Re: onj?- (Anand Buddhdev)
3. Re: on j?- (Sai)
4. Re: onj?- (Srinivas Kommu)
5. Re: on j?- (Sai)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:15:29 -0700
From: "Mitchell Ginsberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit]on j?-
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
hello all at Sanskrit@,
I have seen various pronunciations of the jñ- consonant cluster. For
example, some Punjabi friends
pronounce it as gy-: for the word jñAna, they pronounce gyAn (also dropping
the final -a vowel).
I have also heard it pronounced ny-. Are there other variations or ways of
pronouncing it? Are
such variations relative to the native (modern Indian) language of the
speaker, in such cases?
How would jñ- be pronounced, for someone who speaks Kannada, for example?
Thank you for all clarifications.
Jinavamsa
=================
http://www.geocities.com/jinavamsa (my Home Page): info
on The Inner Palace (2nd ed.) and The Far Shore (3rd ed.);
links to the Chishtiyya (Sufi), Creative Solutions for Peace,
Insight Practice (Vipassana), and Nasrudin discussion groups.
----Original Message Follows----
From: shashi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Sanskrit] Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 5, Issue 14
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:45:32 -0400
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:41:58 +0200
> From: Anand Buddhdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [Sanskrit] Hello, introduction and a question
>
>
> Now, if I take my own name, Anand, written as "aananda" as it should
> be, then according to the rules, the accent should be on "na", since
> that is the penultimate syllable, and it is heavy, because it is
> followed by a doubled consonant (nda). However, in modern Indian
> languages, everyone pronounces my name as "aanand", dropping the final
> "a", and therefore, "aa" becomes the penultimate syllable and receives
> the stress when spoken. But am I right in concluding that the stress
> should really fall on "na" according to the rules?
>
the dropping of trailing 'a' in modern indian languages is akin to the
sounds of english as well. e.g. 'but' 'put' etc. all have no trailing
'a' and the trailing 't' is not 'halanta' but short, shorter than a
full 'a' only in speaking.
the southern indian pronounciations of trailing 'a' exaggerate it to
the other extreme and speak it like 'aa'. e.g. in 'gaNesha' the 'ga'
and 'sha' should be pronounced similarly, but it is pronounced as
'gaNeshaa' or shiva as shivaa, etc.
the reason for the stress being on the long vowel is that it helps
shorten the other following vowels.
--
shashi joshi
chief editor
'tarang' - the wave
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:23:12 +0200
From: Anand Buddhdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] onj?-
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:15:29 -0700 Mitchell Ginsberg wrote:
> hello all at Sanskrit@,
>
> I have seen various pronunciations of the jñ- consonant cluster. For
> example, some Punjabi friends
> pronounce it as gy-: for the word jñAna, they pronounce gyAn (also
> dropping the final -a vowel).
>
> I have also heard it pronounced ny-. Are there other variations or
> ways of pronouncing it? Are
> such variations relative to the native (modern Indian) language of the
>
> speaker, in such cases?
>
> How would jñ- be pronounced, for someone who speaks Kannada, for
> example?
>
> Thank you for all clarifications.
The Gujaratis pronounce it as "gn". It's a tricky sound, and one that
has been subject to the most regional variations, I believe.
--
Anand Buddhdev
http://anand.org
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:00:46 -0600
From: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re:[Sanskrit] on j?-
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
The closest description I can give of pronouncing ñ- is as follows:
It is first of all, a nasal sound, which rules out (gya) as a
valid pronunciation.
First utter j- or more easily, g-
Then the ñ- is to be uttered by touching the very base of the tongue to the
innermost point in the palate i.e., almost near the wind pipe (?).
If you touch the palate anywhere towards the front you'll get all the
variations you hear in various Indian languages such as gnana, which is
incorrect. of course, the gyana is also another regional variation.
The way the letters are arranged in sanskrit has a significance.
ñ- is the last of the series:
ka kha ga gha ñ-
If you notice, all these 5 letters have to be uttered by touching the
base of the tongue to the inner part of the palate, pushing the
touching point gradually more and more inside as you go left to right.
The ñ- goes inmost and is also a nasal sound, just like all the 5th
letters (ñ-, JN-, Na, na, ma) in the 5 series starting at ka, cha, Ta,
ta and pa.
In the next series
ch- chh- j- jh- JN-
the touching point is somewhere in the middle of the tongue and goes
slightly inward from cha to JN-. Again the last letter is nasal.
In
T- Th- D- Dh- N-
the tip of the tongue bends back and touches the palate starting at
its middle portion and gradually going inwards with last letter
being nasal.
In
t- th- d- dh- n-
the tip of the tongue touches the tip of the palate.
In
pa pha ba bha ma
the lips touch each other. without touching tongue to the palate.
Between themselves they cover most (not all) combinations of firmly touching
the tongue to the palate that are physically possible, that too in a
logical order.
Instead, if the tongue touches the palate very lightly,
you get the letters such as
z as in zebra in english,
ch- as in "chali" in telugu,
kh- as in "khabar" in urdu.
- Sai.
Anand Buddhdev uvaacha:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:15:29 -0700 Mitchell Ginsberg wrote:
>
> > hello all at Sanskrit@,
> >
> > I have seen various pronunciations of the jñ- consonant cluster. For
> > example, some Punjabi friends
> > pronounce it as gy-: for the word jñAna, they pronounce gyAn (also
> > dropping the final -a vowel).
> >
> > I have also heard it pronounced ny-. Are there other variations or
> > ways of pronouncing it? Are
> > such variations relative to the native (modern Indian) language of the
> >
> > speaker, in such cases?
> >
> > How would jñ- be pronounced, for someone who speaks Kannada, for
> > example?
> >
> > Thank you for all clarifications.
>
> The Gujaratis pronounce it as "gn". It's a tricky sound, and one that
> has been subject to the most regional variations, I believe.
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:00:30 -0700
From: Srinivas Kommu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] onj?-
To: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Sai wrote:
<snip>
>In the next series
> ch- chh- j- jh- JN-
>the touching point is somewhere in the middle of the tongue and goes
>slightly inward from cha to JN-. Again the last letter is nasal.
>
>
dEvanAgari has a separate representation for the original sound in
question, but in (at least) telugu and kannada, it's represented as a
consonant of 'j' and 'JN' from the above set of five letters (varga).
Doesn't that give a hint of what's the correct pronunciation? If you
know how to pronounce the last character, you should be able to put a
'j' in front of it. Doesn't that also mean pronunciations such as 'GY'
and 'gn' are simply wrong? Of course, over time, these regional
variations could become popular enough to present themselves as
alternatives.
srinivas
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:57:39 -0600
From: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re:[Sanskrit] on j?-
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
But we cannot take telugu representation as an indication of the
pronunciation of sanskrit alphabet j~n which comes after kSha should be.
Because in telugu, we don't write many sanskrit words as they are
supposed to be written and pronounced.
e.g., aananda is written in telugu as aanaMda (with sunna (anusvara or
bindu) as in aM, which is wrong according to pANini's sanskrit grammar
rules.
Definitely the pronunciations GY and gn are both wrong.
We need to scholar a paNDita like Dr. Sarasvati Mohan to tell us the
actual pronunciation.
We telugus pronounce it as the conjunction of g- and N~ (ITRANS),
though we write it as the conjunction of j and JN as Srinivas says
below.
- Sai.
Srinivas Kommu uvaacha:
> Sai wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >In the next series
> > ch- chh- j- jh- JN-
> >the touching point is somewhere in the middle of the tongue and goes
> >slightly inward from cha to JN-. Again the last letter is nasal.
> >
> >
>
> dEvanAgari has a separate representation for the original sound in
> question, but in (at least) telugu and kannada, it's represented as a
> consonant of 'j' and 'JN' from the above set of five letters (varga).
> Doesn't that give a hint of what's the correct pronunciation? If you
> know how to pronounce the last character, you should be able to put a
> 'j' in front of it. Doesn't that also mean pronunciations such as 'GY'
> and 'gn' are simply wrong? Of course, over time, these regional
> variations could become popular enough to present themselves as
> alternatives.
>
> srinivas
>
------------------------------
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