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Today's Topics:
1. (no subject) (Shreyas P. Munshi)
2. pronunciation of the vowel R^i (Jay Vaidya)
3. vahnimanDala ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
4. research abroad (Desiraju Hanumanta Rao)
5. vahni manDala etc (Desiraju Hanumanta Rao)
6. Re: pronunciation of the vowel R^i (Ramesh Krishnamurthy)
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Message: 1
Date: 17 Oct 2006 17:46:34 -0000
From: "Shreyas P. Munshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] (no subject)
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
?
Speaking about Panini's phonetics, there is a question to examine:
What is the correct pronunciation of the word Sanskrt....Sanskr'i't (as
pronounced in UP etc) or Sanskr'u't (as pronounced in Maharashtra and
Gujarat?....I submit that /mru.....mriyate/ seems to suggest that there are
separate sounds and hence the different graphic symbols for /mru/ and /mri/ in
the orthodox Devnagari script...because there are separate pronunciations for
the vowels /hru/ and /i/...(and perhaps the difference in pronunciation is
meant to be phonemic!); that is, the two sounds could have been used to convey
distinctive meanings.
I notice that even Hrigveda is written as Rigveda.../hri/ is a vowel, while /r/
is a consonant..In Devnagari the word is written as the one corresponding to
Hrigveda...a vowel, and not a consonant, in the 'word initial' position.
....Shreyas Munshi
____________________________
Shreyas Munshi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:33:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] pronunciation of the vowel R^i
To: "Shreyas P. Munshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Note: "R^i" is just the ITRANS internet standard for
the special symbol in Indian script. It does not mean
that the pronunciation is "ri". In the Harvard-Kyoto
standard, the same symbol is written as "R" - but I am
not used to writing in the Harvard-Kyoto scheme.
Message:
None of the current pronunciations of the vowel R^i in
modern Indian languages correspond to the
pronunciation in sa.nskR^ita.
The pronunciations are all correct WHILE SPEAKING IN
THE MODERN LANGUAGES, because each of these languages
(Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Kannada, Telugu, etc) have
their own independent rich grammar and literature and
sound standardization.
In Western UP Hindi -> ra
In "standard" Hindi -> ri
In Marathi, Gujarati -> ru
In Tamil, Malayalam -> ri
Clearly, in all of these modern languages, these are
two joined sounds, not one: (1) the consonant
(vya.njana) "r" + a vowel "a"/"i"/"u"
The sound R^i is a vowel. Vowels can be sounded
continuously for a long time without changing their
sound-character.
e.g.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
ooooooooooooooooooo
similarly it is possible to say
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
The toungue-placement (sthaana) for R^i is the
muurdhan (the highest part of the hard palate, the
same part where the tongue is placed for T, Th, D, Dh,
N. Also for the second "shh", but only a certain
literate speaking tradition in Marathi make a
distinctly different tongue placement for "sh" and
"shh". I don't know about Gujarati. Most modern
Indians do not pronounce "shh" as it was pronounced in
sa.nskR^ita. This is quite OK while speaking their own
modern language.)
The mouth effort ("prayatna") for R^i is "vivR^ita" on
the inside, and "vivaara" on the outside. This means
that the inner part of the throat is open, and there
is a continuous flow of air from the throat through
the mouth out of the lips. So when the tip of the
tongue touches the muurdhan, it should not block the
flow of air at any time. If it blocks the flow of air,
this turns into the consonant (vya.njana) "r".
Of course, "ra", "ri", "ru" all break the continuous
flow of air from the throat to the mouth as the tongue
touches the palate to make the "r" sound, and then
they all change from muurdhan to kaNTha (for "ra"), or
taalu (for "ri"), or oshhTha (for "ru"). Which are all
wrong while speaking in sa.nskR^ita. (But correct in
those modern languages.)
Similarly for the vowel L^i, the tongue placement for
which is near the teeth ("danta"), and the flow of air
is unbroken.
R^i as a true vowel is used in modern mandarin chinese
L^i as a true vowel is used in modern standard English
(but not most Indian accented English)
For example the the word "simple"
This is correctly pronounced:
'sim-pl (the final "l" being a vowel)
Sometimes in Indian accented English, we say 'sim-pal
or 'sim-pel, in which case "l" is a consonant.
Shreyas-ji you should take your mri-yate argument
further to see that that none of "ra", "ri" or "ru"
are the same as R^i - all have separate symbols
1. (mother-worship) maatR^i + archanaa
= maatrarchanaa = maat"ra"rchanaa -> "ra" not equal to
"R^i"
2. (mather's wish) maatR^i + ichchhaa
= maatrichchhaa = maat"ri"chchhaa -> "ri" not equal to
"R^i"
3. (mother's service) maatR^i + upaasanaa
= maatrupaasanaa -> "ru" not equal to "R^i"
However, do be careful. It is not a good idea to base
your phonetics/pronunciation on script writing. There
are 18 varieties of "i" in sa.nskR^ita, (similar
number in maraThi) but mostly for convenience we use
only two symbols "i" and "ii", which are taught to us
at school. This is perfectly fine, because most
readers who know the language choose the correct
variety of the the vowel based on the context.
Regards,
Dhananjay
--- "Shreyas P. Munshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> What is the correct pronunciation of the word
> Sanskrt....Sanskrit (as pronounced in UP etc)or
> Sanskrut (as pronounced in Maharashtra and
> Gujarat?....I submit that /mru.....mriyate/ seems to
> suggest that there are separate symbols for /mru/
> and /mri/..that is for the vowels /hru/ and
> /i/....Shreyas Munshi
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:25:31 -0500
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] vahnimanDala
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Jai Ramji Ki!
Dear Friends:
During the Durga puja, I came across three mantras that intrigue me.
OM suuryamanDalaaya dvaadashakalaatmane namaH
OM somamanDalaaya shoDashakalaatmane namaH
OM vahnimanDalaaya dashakalaatmane namaH
I think I know who the first two mantras refer to (Sri Rama and Sri Krishna).
Sri Rama is often described as the dvaadashakalaa purushha and Sri Krishna is
often said to be the shoDashakalaa purushha. However, I am uncertain about the
vahnimanDala and the dashakalaa purushha. My guess is vahnimanDala is about
yajna, and Sri Vishhnu is the intended Deity here, because He is often called
the adhiyajna. But is He a dashakalaa purushha?
I am hoping that you'd know the answer to this.
Regards,
Dhruba.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:45:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Desiraju Hanumanta Rao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] research abroad
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Prospective researchers may join this web forum in yahoo groups -
mahabharata_study and verify messages for some info about vistas in UK etc
School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS, University of London); also
Universities of Roehampton (Surrey); Cardiff; Oxford; Cambridge; and
probably others. - as informed by Simon B
---------------------------------
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:33:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Desiraju Hanumanta Rao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] vahni manDala etc
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>> But is He, raama, a dashakalaa purushha?
If raama is having only dasha kala-s, or any one digit lesser to 16, he will
not become a puurNa avataara.
These three maNDala-s and kaLa-s are the components of Shri Chakra -
chintamaNi dwiipa of lalita tripuira sundari, and they occur in lalita 1000
naamaa-s and other texts of her puuja. Don't confound them with the attributes
of raama and kRishna, as these two are deemed as puurNa avatara-s having all
the 16 kala-s.
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:34:29 +0530
From: "Ramesh Krishnamurthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] pronunciation of the vowel R^i
To: "Jay Vaidya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Very interesting..
Can you also guide us on the exact pronunciation of the anusvara when
the succeeding letter is ya, ra, la, va, Sa, Sha, sa, ha?
dhanyavAdaH
Ramesh
- Hide quoted text -
On 18/10/06, Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The mouth effort ("prayatna") for R^i is "vivR^ita" on
> the inside, and "vivaara" on the outside. This means
> that the inner part of the throat is open, and there
> is a continuous flow of air from the throat through
> the mouth out of the lips. So when the tip of the
> tongue touches the muurdhan, it should not block the
> flow of air at any time. If it blocks the flow of air,
> this turns into the consonant (vya.njana) "r".
>
> Of course, "ra", "ri", "ru" all break the continuous
> flow of air from the throat to the mouth as the tongue
> touches the palate to make the "r" sound, and then
> they all change from muurdhan to kaNTha (for "ra"), or
> taalu (for "ri"), or oshhTha (for "ru"). Which are all
> wrong while speaking in sa.nskR^ita. (But correct in
> those modern languages.)
>
> Similarly for the vowel L^i, the tongue placement for
> which is near the teeth ("danta"), and the flow of air
> is unbroken.
>
> R^i as a true vowel is used in modern mandarin chinese
> L^i as a true vowel is used in modern standard English
> (but not most Indian accented English)
> For example the the word "simple"
> This is correctly pronounced:
> 'sim-pl (the final "l" being a vowel)
> Sometimes in Indian accented English, we say 'sim-pal
> or 'sim-pel, in which case "l" is a consonant.
>
------------------------------
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