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Today's Topics:
1. Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 51, Issue 1 (K.N.RAMESH)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:24:20 +0530
From: "K.N.RAMESH" <knram...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] sanskrit Digest, Vol 51, Issue 1
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID:
<411bf6f00907030254o129dc148kc1b6b1eec414d...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Sai,
Kudos for bringing this group alive and your vyakarana lessons are
excellent.
I fully agree with Naresh's lucid explanation on svarita.
My answers to your questions are highlighted.
Your question:
If svarita is not the middle pitch, what is the middle pitch called then?
Svarita is the high pitch.Middle pitch is udatta.
> the one without an annotation? Udatta.
> In the vedic accents convention, udaatta is denoted by a vertical bar
above
> the akshara - NO- and the anudaatta by an underscore below the akShara
-TRUE. What is the word to denote the akShara without any accent?
The standard followed in grantham books or devanagari books in south india
is as follows:
Udaatta has no marks.
Svarita:Two methods are followed to denote this:
1st method: Has a vertical bar above an akshara. Deerga svarita is denoted
by two vertical lines or by a chandra bimba.
2nd method: Has a chandra bimba above an akshara. Deerga svaraita id denoted
by vertical bar.
Anudatta: has no marks.this is followed inkrishna yajus sakha
> In music parlance, here is my understanding. Please correct me if wrong.
> udaatta = Indian musical note shuddha/komala 'ri' - True
> anudaatta = Indian musical note kaishika 'ni' (lower than the 'sa') - My
ganapdigal says this refers to lower Sa.
> ??? = the middle note = indian musical note 'sa' - This comes under udaata
> svarita = 'sa ri .."- This refers to sadarana/antara gandara.
coming to Jai Vaidya's message:
........... In a "pada" (roughly speaking "usable formed-word") all
syllablesare anudAtta EXCEPT one of them. So then only that one will have to
be marked with lines, and the rest can be taken to be anudAtta. -this should
be read as udAtta. Am I right?
Pranaamaha
Ramesh
On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 9:52 AM, <sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu> wrote:
> Send sanskrit mailing list submissions to
> sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/sanskrit
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> sanskrit-ow...@cs.utah.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sanskrit digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 - (Jay Vaidya)
> 2. Re: [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
> (umahise...@comcast.net)
> 3. Re: [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 - (Sai Susarla)
> 4. Re: [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 - (Correction to
> Jay Vaidya's message) (Jay Vaidya)
> 5. Re: [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 - (Naresh Cuntoor)
> 6. Re: [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 - (P N Krishnamurthy)
> 7. Notation for svaras - rigvedic tradition (Jay Vaidya)
> 8. Re: [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 2 - arthanirNaya
> (Jay Vaidya)
> 9. Re: [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 2 - arthanirNaya
> (Naresh Cuntoor)
> 10. Re: Notation for svaras - rigvedic tradition (Bhaskar Joshi)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jay Vaidya <deejayvai...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
> To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
> Message-ID: <25966.42427...@web84307.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> sAi! shobhanAH pAThAH |
>
> Dear Sai - Very well-written lessons.
>
> You ask - what is svarita?
> A problem to be addressed before trying to answer that is "what are udAtta
and anudAtta?"
>
> Your explanation regarding udAtta=high-pitched and anudAtta=low-pitched is
commonly accepted. However, going by the kAshikAvRittI, udAtta is a
tightening of the site of articulation, i.e., it is stress. Comparing the
pit/apit conjugations of verbs, the sense of "stress" is exactly matched by
sister-niece Indo-European languages (such as Spanish). I will explain if
needed.
>
> The notion that udAtta="stressed sound" is also described by
mahAmahopAdhyAya abhyaMkara.
> Thus anudAtta is an unstressed sound. The site of articulation is not
tightened. I am partial to the explanation "stressed/unstressed". But your
high-pitch/low-pitched is perfectly fine based on common teaching.
>
> NOW for svarita.
> pANini says:
> samAhAraH svaritam |
> tasyAdita udAttam ardhahrasvam | (I am not sure if this sUtra is included
in the LSK)
>
> svarita is a combination (samAhAraH) of udAtta and anudAtta. The first
half-hrasva length of the svarita is udAtta, while the rest is anudAtta.
>
> So for a hrasva svara, the time division is 0.5 udAtta + 0.5 anudAtta
>
> For a dIrgha svara, the time division is 0.5 udAtta + 1.5 anudAtta
>
> Now the last svara of the gAyatrI mantra is indeed svarita - prachodayAt -
however, I have no clue how people say that svara. In my family tradition we
have a fanciful singing flourish to end the mantra. Because a svarita pretty
much always follows every udAtta, even within a sentence, making that sort
of a tuneful flourish would make no sense. However, if your family tradition
pronounces "-yAt" as 0.5highpitch+0.5lowpitch; or as
0.5stress+0.5unstressed, that would be it.
>
> Also a minor correction :
> "adarshanam lopaH" is better translated as "disappearance is termed 'lopa'
", rather than "hiding".
>
> Again, congratulations and thanks for the LSK lessons.
>
> Dhananjay
> ?
>
> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu <
sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu> wrote:
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:17:27 +0530
> From: Sai Susarla <sai.susa...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
> To: sanskrit <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
> ??? <f9dd91150906300947g7e4d4278l582359c3581bc...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> In the last episode, you learnt that '*sa.nj~naa*' means a term used to
> denote a concept. I also introduced you to the first *sa.nj~naa* called
'*it
> *'.
>
> *halantyaM* |???1.3.3
> (1.3.3 means this is the 3rd paaNini suutram in the 3rd quarter (*paadam*)
> of 1st chapter (*adhyaayaH*)
>
> Here is a trick question: How many chapters does paaNini's
> *aShTaadhyaayii*have? Answer at the end :-)
>
> The *laghu siddhaanta kaumudi*i (LSK) is a Cliff's notes or guidebook to
> paaNini's aShTaadhyaayii written by *SrI varadaraajaachaarya*. He himself
> said it is 'paaNiniiya praveshaaya', introduction to paanini's treatise
>
> It explains selected paaNini suutras (not in the aShTaadhyaayii order) so
as
> to gradually unfold several aspects of sanskrit grammar grouped
conceptwise.
> The first chapter of LSK introduces many common grammatical terms, and
hence
> is called 'sa.nj~naa prakaraNam'.
>
> LSK quotes the above as the first sUtram and gives its explanation as
> follows:
>
> *upadeshe antyaM hal it syaat* | *sUtreShu adR^iShTaM padaM sUtrAntaraat
> anuvartaniiyam sarvatra* |
> *
> *which means, 'The last consonant in maaheSvaraaNi sUtrANi is referred to
as
> 'it', ... blah blah ...
>
> If you look at this explanation and what the pANini rule above says, you
> must already raise a question. How in the world did Varadaraaja mahodaya
> conclude that the above sUtram talks about the 'it' sa.nj~naa ??? There is
> no word called 'it' in the above sUtram isn't it?
> That's a quiz question for you, whose answer will be revealed in the next
> lesson.
>
> Now that I gave you enough basis to start understanding the LSK, knowing
> that my pace so far has been too slow for you, I will rapidly introduce
> several new terms in this lesson.
>
> *adarshanaM lopaH |* 1.1.60
>
> The sa.nj~naa 'lopaH' means the hiding of something.
>
> tasya lopaH |
>
> The 'it' i.e., the last consonant in aN, ach etc. when used in a sutra,
> doesn't have any meaning by itself, and should be dropped (*lopaH*)
wherever
> it occurs. It is there only to abbreviate things as the next sUtra says:
>
> *aadirantyena sahetaa = aadiH antyena saha itaa |* 1.1.71
>
> LSK: *antyena itaa sahita aadiH, madhyagaanaaM svasya cha sa.nj~naa syaat
|
> yathaa, aN iti a i u varNaanaaM sa.nj~naa |
>
> *The above sUtra introduces paaNini's abbreviation for letter sequences,
> such as 'ach' and 'hal' that I talked about in the first lesson. It says,
> the first letter followed by an 'it' denotes the first letter along with
all
> intervening letters upto but excluding the last 'it'
>
> e.g., aN denotes a i u
>
> uukAlojjhhrasvadIrghaplutaH = uu kaalaH ach hrasva-diirgha-plutaH | 1.1.27
>
> This sutra introduces the terms *hrasva*, *diirgha *and *pluta*. It says
> that in Sanskrit there are three time intervals (kaala maatraaH) in which
a
> vowel can be uttered: hrasva, diirgha and pluta
> like in the three ways of saying 'u'
> i.e., u, uu, uuu
> This applies to all the vowels i.e., ach varNaaH like a i u R^i L^i e ai o
> au
> However, some other exceptions will be introduced that prevent e ai o au
> from having hrasva form.
>
> The next set of rules introduce the three possible tones (crudely, the
pitch
> at which a sound is uttered):
>
> *ucchairudaattaH = ucchaiH udaattaH |* high-pitched tone is udaatta
> *nIchairanudaattaH = niichaiH anudaattaH |* low-pitched tone is anudaatta
> *samaahaaraH svaritaH = samaahaaraH svaritaH |* the neutralization of high
> and low pitch, i.e. the middle pitch is svaritaH
>
> I am not sure about what svarita means. Can some expert help me here? Is
it
> the middle pitch or the other elongated pitch we have as in
> 'yaat' of 'prachodayaat'?
>
> The next rule introduces the concept of a nasal sound - *anunaasika*
>
> mukha-naasikaa-vachano-anunaasikaH |
>
> The letter uttered with both the mouth and nose is called anunaasika
> By derivation, a letter uttered without a nasal component is called
> ananunAsika (not nasal).
>
> Quiz:
> 1. Given the above rules, in Sanskrit, in how many possible ways can the
> following letters be uttered????a i u R^i e ai o au
>
> Answer to trick question: aShTaadhyaayii, meaning "8-chaptered", has 8
> chapters.
>
> In the next lesson, we shall examine Sanskrit alphabet's is phonetic basis
> and its systematic arrangement on that account.
>
> bhavadiiyaH,
> - Sai.
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:00:24 +0000 (UTC)
> From: umahise...@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
> To: Sanskrit Mailing List <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <
1812518829.262141246402824508.javamail.r...@sz0071a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> Namaste Sai,
>
>
>
> 1.samaahaaraH svaritaH
>
> svaritaH? means? that which is uttered with both the? pitches ( uccaiH and
nIccaiH) . a letter cannot be uttered in two pitches at the same time. when
a letter is begun in one pitch and continued in another , the Svarita is
employed. this is usually in vedas. this quality of pitch applies only in
case of vowels.
>
> 2. Possible ways the following letters( a i u? RRi?....)? ?can be uttered
----18 = 3(hrasva,dIrgha,Pluta)? X 3(udattaH,anudattaH,svaritaH)?X
2(ananaasikaH, ananunaasikaH)
>
>
>
> Usha Mahisekar
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sai Susarla" <sai.susa...@gmail.com>
> To: "sanskrit" <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 11:47:27 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
> Subject: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
>
> In the last episode, you learnt that ' sa.nj~naa ' means a term used to
denote a concept. I also introduced you to the first sa.nj~naa called ' it
'.
>
> halantyaM |?? 1.3.3
> (1.3.3 means this is the 3rd paaNini suutram in the 3rd quarter ( paadam )
of 1st chapter ( adhyaayaH )
>
> Here is a trick question: How many chapters does paaNini's aShTaadhyaayii
have? Answer at the end :-)
>
> The laghu siddhaanta kaumudi i (LSK) is a Cliff's notes or guidebook to
paaNini's aShTaadhyaayii written by SrI varadaraajaachaarya . He himself
said it is 'paaNiniiya praveshaaya', introduction to paanini's treatise
>
> It explains selected paaNini suutras (not in the aShTaadhyaayii order) so
as to gradually unfold several aspects of sanskrit grammar grouped
conceptwise. The first chapter of LSK introduces many common grammatical
terms, and hence is called 'sa.nj~naa prakaraNam'.
>
> LSK quotes the above as the first sUtram and gives its explanation as
follows:
>
> upadeshe antyaM hal it syaat | sUtreShu adR^iShTaM padaM sUtrAntaraat
anuvartaniiyam sarvatra |
>
> which means, 'The last consonant in maaheSvaraaNi sUtrANi is referred to
as 'it', ... blah blah ...
>
> If you look at this explanation and what the pANini rule above says, you
must already raise a question. How in the world did Varadaraaja mahodaya
conclude that the above sUtram talks about the 'it' sa.nj~naa ??? There is
no word called 'it' in the above sUtram isn't it?
> That's a quiz question for you, whose answer will be revealed in the next
lesson.
>
> Now that I gave you enough basis to start understanding the LSK, knowing
that my pace so far has been too slow for you, I will rapidly introduce
several new terms in this lesson.
>
> adarshanaM lopaH | 1.1.60
>
> The sa.nj~naa 'lopaH' means the hiding of something.
>
> tasya lopaH |
>
> The 'it' i.e., the last consonant in aN, ach etc. when used in a sutra,
doesn't have any meaning by itself, and should be dropped ( lopaH ) wherever
it occurs. It is there only to abbreviate things as the next sUtra says:
>
> aadirantyena sahetaa = aadiH antyena saha itaa | 1.1.71
>
> LSK: antyena itaa sahita aadiH, madhyagaanaaM svasya cha sa.nj~naa syaat |
yathaa, aN iti a i u varNaanaaM sa.nj~naa |
>
> The above sUtra introduces paaNini's abbreviation for letter sequences,
such as 'ach' and 'hal' that I talked about in the first lesson. It says,
> the first letter followed by an 'it' denotes the first letter along with
all intervening letters upto but excluding the last 'it'
>
> e.g., aN denotes a i u
>
> uukAlojjhhrasvadIrghaplutaH = uu kaalaH ach hrasva-diirgha-plutaH | 1.1.27
>
> This sutra introduces the terms hrasva , diirgha and pluta . It says that
in Sanskrit there are three time intervals (kaala maatraaH) in which a vowel
can be uttered: hrasva, diirgha and pluta
> like in the three ways of saying 'u'
> i.e., u, uu, uuu
> This applies to all the vowels i.e., ach varNaaH like a i u R^i L^i e ai o
au
> However, some other exceptions will be introduced that prevent e ai o au
from having hrasva form.
>
> The next set of rules introduce the three possible tones (crudely, the
pitch at which a sound is uttered):
>
> ucchairudaattaH = ucchaiH udaattaH | high-pitched tone is udaatta
> nIchairanudaattaH = niichaiH anudaattaH | low-pitched tone is anudaatta
> samaahaaraH svaritaH = samaahaaraH svaritaH | the neutralization of high
and low pitch, i.e. the middle pitch is svaritaH
>
> I am not sure about what svarita means. Can some expert help me here? Is
it the middle pitch or the other elongated pitch we have as in
> 'yaat' of 'prachodayaat'?
>
> The next rule introduces the concept of a nasal sound - anunaasika
>
> mukha-naasikaa-vachano-anunaasikaH |
>
> The letter uttered with both the mouth and nose is called anunaasika
> By derivation, a letter uttered without a nasal component is called
ananunAsika (not nasal).
>
> Quiz:
> 1. Given the above rules, in Sanskrit, in how many possible ways can the
following letters be uttered??? a i u R^i e ai o au
>
> Answer to trick question: aShTaadhyaayii, meaning "8-chaptered", has 8
chapters.
>
> In the next lesson, we shall examine Sanskrit alphabet's is phonetic basis
and its systematic arrangement on that account.
>
> bhavadiiyaH,
> - Sai.
>
> _______________________________________________ To UNSUBSCRIBE or
customize your subscription or topics of interest, visit
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:24:54 +0530
> From: Sai Susarla <sai.susa...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
> To: Sanskrit Mailing List <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <f9dd91150907010854t784d3e6bh922363e473a41...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> If svarita is not the middle pitch, what is the middle pitch called then?
> the one without an annotation?
> In the vedic accents convention, udaatta is denoted by a vertical bar
above
> the akshara and the anudaatta by an underscore below the akShara. What is
> the word to denote the akShara without any accent?
>
> In music parlance, here is my understanding. Please correct me if wrong.
> udaatta = Indian musical note shuddha/komala 'ri'
> anudaatta = Indian musical note kaishika 'ni' (lower than the 'sa')
> ??? = the middle note = indian musical note 'sa'
> svarita = 'sa ri .."
>
> The way I heard the south Indian veda pandits utter the 'yaat' in
> prachodayaat is either 1/2 or 1 maatra of middle-pitch (Indian musical
note
> 'sa') followed by the rest in the next higher note (udaatta or
> Shuddha/komala ri ).
> - Sai.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 4:09 AM, Jay Vaidya <deejayvai...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> sAi! shobhanAH pAThAH |
>>
>> Dear Sai - Very well-written lessons.
>>
>> You ask - what is svarita?
>> A problem to be addressed before trying to answer that is "what are
udAtta
>> and anudAtta?"
>>
>> Your explanation regarding udAtta=high-pitched and anudAtta=low-pitched
is
>> commonly accepted. However, going by the kAshikAvRittI, udAtta is a
>> tightening of the site of articulation, i.e., it is stress. Comparing the
>> pit/apit conjugations of verbs, the sense of "stress" is exactly matched
by
>> sister-niece Indo-European languages (such as Spanish). I will explain if
>> needed.
>>
>> The notion that udAtta="stressed sound" is also described by
>> mahAmahopAdhyAya abhyaMkara.
>> Thus anudAtta is an unstressed sound. The site of articulation is not
>> tightened. I am partial to the explanation "stressed/unstressed". But
your
>> high-pitch/low-pitched is perfectly fine based on common teaching.
>>
>> NOW for svarita.
>> pANini says:
>> samAhAraH svaritam |
>> tasyAdita udAttam ardhahrasvam | (I am not sure if this sUtra is included
>> in the LSK)
>>
>> svarita is a combination (samAhAraH) of udAtta and anudAtta. The first
>> half-hrasva length of the svarita is udAtta, while the rest is anudAtta.
>> So for a hrasva svara, the time division is 0.5 udAtta + 0.5 anudAtta
>> For a dIrgha svara, the time division is 0.5 udAtta + 1.5 anudAtta
>>
>> Now the last svara of the gAyatrI mantra is indeed svarita - prachodayAt
-
>> however, I have no clue how people say that svara. In my family tradition
we
>> have a fanciful singing flourish to end the mantra. Because a svarita
pretty
>> much always follows every udAtta, even within a sentence, making that
sort
>> of a tuneful flourish would make no sense. However, if your family
tradition
>> pronounces "-yAt" as 0.5highpitch+0.5lowpitch; or as
>> 0.5stress+0.5unstressed, that would be it.
>>
>> Also a minor correction :
>> "adarshanam lopaH" is better translated as "disappearance is termed
'lopa'
>> ", rather than "hiding".
>>
>> Again, congratulations and thanks for the LSK lessons.
>>
>> Dhananjay
>>
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 6/30/09, sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu <
>> sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu>* wrote:
>>
>> Message: 12
>> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:17:27 +0530
>> From: Sai Susarla <sai.susa...@gmail.com<
http://us.mc843.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sai.susa...@gmail.com>
>> >
>> Subject: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
>> To: sanskrit <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu<
http://us.mc843.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sansk...@cs.utah.edu>
>> >
>> Message-ID:
>> <f9dd91150906300947g7e4d4278l582359c3581bc...@mail.gmail.com<
http://us.mc843.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=f9dd91150906300947g7e4d4278l582359c3581bc...@mail.gmail.com
>
>> >
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> In the last episode, you learnt that '*sa.nj~naa*' means a term used to
>> denote a concept. I also introduced you to the first *sa.nj~naa* called
>> '*it
>> *'.
>>
>> *halantyaM* | 1.3.3
>> (1.3.3 means this is the 3rd paaNini suutram in the 3rd quarter
(*paadam*)
>> of 1st chapter (*adhyaayaH*)
>>
>> Here is a trick question: How many chapters does paaNini's
>> *aShTaadhyaayii*have? Answer at the end :-)
>>
>> The *laghu siddhaanta kaumudi*i (LSK) is a Cliff's notes or guidebook to
>>
>> paaNini's aShTaadhyaayii written by *SrI varadaraajaachaarya*. He himself
>> said it is 'paaNiniiya praveshaaya', introduction to paanini's treatise
>>
>> It explains selected paaNini suutras (not in the aShTaadhyaayii order) so
>> as
>> to gradually unfold several aspects of sanskrit grammar grouped
>> conceptwise.
>> The first chapter of LSK introduces many common grammatical terms, and
>> hence
>> is called 'sa.nj~naa prakaraNam'.
>>
>> LSK quotes the above as the first sUtram and gives its explanation as
>> follows:
>>
>> *upadeshe antyaM hal it syaat* | *sUtreShu adR^iShTaM padaM sUtrAntaraat
>> anuvartaniiyam sarvatra* |
>> *
>> *which means, 'The last consonant in maaheSvaraaNi sUtrANi is referred to
>> as
>> 'it', ... blah blah ...
>>
>> If you look at this explanation and what the pANini rule above says, you
>> must already raise a question. How in the world did Varadaraaja mahodaya
>> conclude that the above sUtram talks about the 'it' sa.nj~naa ??? There
is
>> no word called 'it' in the above sUtram isn't it?
>> That's a quiz question for you, whose answer will be revealed in the next
>> lesson.
>>
>> Now that I gave you enough basis to start understanding the LSK, knowing
>> that my pace so far has been too slow for you, I will rapidly introduce
>> several new terms in this lesson.
>>
>> *adarshanaM lopaH |* 1.1.60
>>
>> The sa.nj~naa 'lopaH' means the hiding of something.
>>
>> tasya lopaH |
>>
>> The 'it' i.e., the last consonant in aN, ach etc. when used in a sutra,
>> doesn't have any meaning by itself, and should be dropped (*lopaH*)
>> wherever
>> it occurs. It is there only to abbreviate things as the next sUtra says:
>>
>> *aadirantyena sahetaa = aadiH antyena saha itaa |* 1.1.71
>>
>> LSK: *antyena itaa sahita aadiH, madhyagaanaaM svasya cha sa.nj~naa syaat
|
>> yathaa, aN iti a i u varNaanaaM sa.nj~naa |
>>
>> *The above sUtra introduces paaNini's abbreviation for letter sequences,
>> such as 'ach' and 'hal' that I talked about in the first lesson. It says,
>> the first letter followed by an 'it' denotes the first letter along with
>> all
>> intervening letters upto but excluding the last 'it'
>>
>> e.g., aN denotes a i u
>>
>> uukAlojjhhrasvadIrghaplutaH = uu kaalaH ach hrasva-diirgha-plutaH |
1.1.27
>>
>> This sutra introduces the terms *hrasva*, *diirgha *and *pluta*. It says
>> that in Sanskrit there are three time intervals (kaala maatraaH) in which
a
>> vowel can be uttered: hrasva, diirgha and pluta
>> like in the three ways of saying 'u'
>> i.e., u, uu, uuu
>> This applies to all the vowels i.e., ach varNaaH like a i u R^i L^i e ai
o
>> au
>> However, some other exceptions will be introduced that prevent e ai o au
>> from having hrasva form.
>>
>> The next set of rules introduce the three possible tones (crudely, the
>> pitch
>> at which a sound is uttered):
>>
>> *ucchairudaattaH = ucchaiH udaattaH |* high-pitched tone is udaatta
>> *nIchairanudaattaH = niichaiH anudaattaH |* low-pitched tone is anudaatta
>> *samaahaaraH svaritaH = samaahaaraH svaritaH |* the neutralization of
high
>> and low pitch, i.e. the middle pitch is svaritaH
>>
>> I am not sure about what svarita means. Can some expert help me here? Is
it
>> the middle pitch or the other elongated pitch we have as in
>> 'yaat' of 'prachodayaat'?
>>
>> The next rule introduces the concept of a nasal sound - *anunaasika*
>>
>> mukha-naasikaa-vachano-anunaasikaH |
>>
>> The letter uttered with both the mouth and nose is called anunaasika
>> By derivation, a letter uttered without a nasal component is called
>> ananunAsika (not nasal).
>>
>> Quiz:
>> 1. Given the above rules, in Sanskrit, in how many possible ways can the
>> following letters be uttered? a i u R^i e ai o au
>>
>> Answer to trick question: aShTaadhyaayii, meaning "8-chaptered", has 8
>> chapters.
>>
>> In the next lesson, we shall examine Sanskrit alphabet's is phonetic
basis
>> and its systematic arrangement on that account.
>>
>> bhavadiiyaH,
>> - Sai.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or customize your subscription or topics of interest,
visit
>> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/options/sanskrit
>> and follow instructions.
>>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:00:57 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jay Vaidya <deejayvai...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
> (Correction to Jay Vaidya's message)
> To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
> Message-ID: <46747.36600...@web84301.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Please note the following corrected paragraph regarding the svara is
"prachodayAt". The main change is regarding correct accounting of mAtrAs in
the dIrga vowel of "yAt"
>
>> Now
> the last svara of the gAyatrI mantra is indeed svarita -
>> the "yAt" of prachodayAt -
> however, I have no clue how
>> people say that svara. In my family
> tradition we have a fanciful
>> singing flourish to end the mantra.
> Because a svarita pretty much
>> always follows every udAtta, even within
> a sentence, making
>> that sort of a tuneful flourish would make no sense.
> However,
>> if your family tradition pronounces "-yAt" as
> :
>> 0.5mAtrA highpitch+1.5mAtrA lowpitch; or as
>> 0.5mAtrA stress+0.5mAtrA unstressed, that would be
> it.
>
> Thanks
> Dhananjay
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:54:59 -0400
> From: Naresh Cuntoor <nares...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
> To: Sanskrit Mailing List <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <f4ce5f9f0907011254l53bcc876hd4ddbea11ebd8...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Dhananjay: Please explain the stress-based interpretation. Sounds very
> interesting.
>
> Now in response to Sai's note....
> svarita is not the middle pitch. It is a combo-pitch as Dhananjay
> pointed out (samAhAraH svaritaH).
>
> Sticking with the pitch-based definitions for now ...
> There are many vedic accent conventions that are followed in books.
> "Typically" I have seen the following convention --
>
> anudAtta has a horizontal bar below.
> udAtta has no mark.
> svarita has one or two vertical bars on top.
>
> In other words, the unmarked portions are to be all in high pitch. (I
> think the top vertical bar(s) and the term udAtta, i.e., raised is the
> source of confusion in Sai's statement).
>
>
> Re: the one vs. two vertical bars on top, they are referred to as
> hrasva svarita and dIrgha svarita respectively.
>
> To give an example, in the Krishna Yajur Vedic style of reciting
> gaNAnAM tvA ... the nAM has two vertical bars. That is referred to as
> dIrgha svarita. An example from Rig Veda (RV) is the "mI" in agnimILe
>
> When a svarita becomes hrasva or dIrgha is 'deterministic' in Krishna
> Yajur Veda (KYV). The general principle is that a svarita preceding a
> samyukta-akShara becomes dIrgha svarita. Else it is a hrasva svarita.
> I am not sure about the convention for svarita at the end of a
> sentence.
>
> As you can see in the agnimILe example, the mI is dIrgha svarita
> though La is not samyukta. That is because this mantra is from RV.
>
> Another example ...In the TaittirIya upanishad (part of KYV), shIkShAM
> vyAkhyAsyAmaH the vyA is a dIrgha svarita because of khyA.
>
> Because the dirgha svaritatva is sort of fixed, printed versions of
> KYV generally do not use two vertical bars. All svaritas (hrasva
> svaritas / dIrgha svaritas) are indicated by one vertical bar. But the
> reciter uses the knowledge of the succeeding letter to pronounce
> either a hrasva / dIrgha svarita.
>
> In some RY traditions, I think all dIrgha svaras with svaritas are
> recited in dIrgha svarita. Among RY Madhwas, I have heard a simple
> elongation for all svaritas. E.g., in gaNAnAM tvA gaNapatim, the pa is
> a hrasva svarita. With this convention, it would sound like gaNapAtim.
>
>
> Having said that, I think the terms are hrasva svarita and dIrgha
> svarita are an abuse of terminology. Let me recap a little bit before
> I explain why. All svaras as we have learnt, can be classified as one
> of 18 types.
> -hrasva, dIrgha, pluta depending on mAtrA.
> -udAtta, anudAtta, svarita depending on pitch
> -mukhavachana, anunAsika, depending on where the sound comes from.
>
> So 3 x 3 x 2 = 18 types. (Not all svaras exhibit 18 types, e.g., none
> of ech show 18.)
>
>
> The above-referenced hrasva svarita and dIrgha svarita are not easily
> categorized within the 18. Why?
> E.g.,
> (1) gaNAnAM tvA -- the nAM is dIrgha svara, dIrgha svarita
> (2) om namo bhagavate rudrAya -- the te is dIrgha svara, but hrasva
svarita.
>
> If we take the KYV style, then hrasva svarita vs. dIrgha svarita has a
> stress-based distinction. Perhaps laghu svarita and guru svarita would
> make more sense!
>
> As far as I know, the Pratishakhyas are also silent when it comes to
> the distinction between hrasva svarita and dIrgha svarita. Seems odd.
>
> It would seem that as far as the 18-fold classification is concerned,
> there is no distinction between hrasva svarita and dIrgha svarita. But
> we *do* hear a difference in sound!
>
>
> Regards,
> Naresh
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Sai Susarla<sai.susa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If svarita is not the middle pitch, what is the middle pitch called then?
>> the one without an annotation?
>> In the vedic accents convention, udaatta is denoted by a vertical bar
above
>> the akshara and the anudaatta by an underscore below the akShara. What is
>> the word to denote the akShara without any accent?
>>
>> In music parlance, here is my understanding. Please correct me if wrong.
>> udaatta = Indian musical note shuddha/komala 'ri'
>> anudaatta = Indian musical note kaishika 'ni' (lower than the 'sa')
>> ??? = the middle note = indian musical note 'sa'
>> svarita = 'sa ri .."
>>
>> The way I heard the south Indian veda pandits utter the 'yaat' in
>> prachodayaat is either 1/2 or 1 maatra of middle-pitch (Indian musical
note
>> 'sa') followed by the rest in the next higher note (udaatta or
>> Shuddha/komala ri ).
>> - Sai.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 4:09 AM, Jay Vaidya <deejayvai...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>>>
>>> sAi! shobhanAH pAThAH |
>>>
>>> Dear Sai - Very well-written lessons.
>>>
>>> You ask - what is svarita?
>>> A problem to be addressed before trying to answer that is "what are
udAtta
>>> and anudAtta?"
>>>
>>> Your explanation regarding udAtta=high-pitched and anudAtta=low-pitched
is
>>> commonly accepted. However, going by the kAshikAvRittI, udAtta is a
>>> tightening of the site of articulation, i.e., it is stress. Comparing
the
>>> pit/apit conjugations of verbs, the sense of "stress" is exactly matched
by
>>> sister-niece Indo-European languages (such as Spanish). I will explain
if
>>> needed.
>>>
>>> The notion that udAtta="stressed sound" is also described by
>>> mahAmahopAdhyAya abhyaMkara.
>>> Thus anudAtta is an unstressed sound. The site of articulation is not
>>> tightened. I am partial to the explanation "stressed/unstressed". But
your
>>> high-pitch/low-pitched is perfectly fine based on common teaching.
>>>
>>> NOW for svarita.
>>> pANini says:
>>> samAhAraH svaritam |
>>> tasyAdita udAttam ardhahrasvam | (I am not sure if this sUtra is
included
>>> in the LSK)
>>>
>>> svarita is a combination (samAhAraH) of udAtta and anudAtta. The first
>>> half-hrasva length of the svarita is udAtta, while the rest is anudAtta.
>>> So for a hrasva svara, the time division is 0.5 udAtta + 0.5 anudAtta
>>> For a dIrgha svara, the time division is 0.5 udAtta + 1.5 anudAtta
>>>
>>> Now the last svara of the gAyatrI mantra is indeed svarita - prachodayAt
-
>>> however, I have no clue how people say that svara. In my family
tradition we
>>> have a fanciful singing flourish to end the mantra. Because a svarita
pretty
>>> much always follows every udAtta, even within a sentence, making that
sort
>>> of a tuneful flourish would make no sense. However, if your family
tradition
>>> pronounces "-yAt" as 0.5highpitch+0.5lowpitch; or as
>>> 0.5stress+0.5unstressed, that would be it.
>>>
>>> Also a minor correction :
>>> "adarshanam lopaH" is better translated as "disappearance is termed
'lopa'
>>> ", rather than "hiding".
>>>
>>> Again, congratulations and thanks for the LSK lessons.
>>>
>>> Dhananjay
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 6/30/09, sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu
>>> <sanskrit-requ...@cs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Message: 12
>>> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:17:27 +0530
>>> From: Sai Susarla <sai.susa...@gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
>>> To: sanskrit <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> ??? <f9dd91150906300947g7e4d4278l582359c3581bc...@mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> In the last episode, you learnt that '*sa.nj~naa*' means a term used to
>>> denote a concept. I also introduced you to the first *sa.nj~naa* called
>>> '*it
>>> *'.
>>>
>>> *halantyaM* |???1.3.3
>>> (1.3.3 means this is the 3rd paaNini suutram in the 3rd quarter
(*paadam*)
>>> of 1st chapter (*adhyaayaH*)
>>>
>>> Here is a trick question: How many chapters does paaNini's
>>> *aShTaadhyaayii*have? Answer at the end :-)
>>>
>>> The *laghu siddhaanta kaumudi*i (LSK) is a Cliff's notes or guidebook to
>>> paaNini's aShTaadhyaayii written by *SrI varadaraajaachaarya*. He
himself
>>> said it is 'paaNiniiya praveshaaya', introduction to paanini's treatise
>>>
>>> It explains selected paaNini suutras (not in the aShTaadhyaayii order)
so
>>> as
>>> to gradually unfold several aspects of sanskrit grammar grouped
>>> conceptwise.
>>> The first chapter of LSK introduces many common grammatical terms, and
>>> hence
>>> is called 'sa.nj~naa prakaraNam'.
>>>
>>> LSK quotes the above as the first sUtram and gives its explanation as
>>> follows:
>>>
>>> *upadeshe antyaM hal it syaat* | *sUtreShu adR^iShTaM padaM sUtrAntaraat
>>> anuvartaniiyam sarvatra* |
>>> *
>>> *which means, 'The last consonant in maaheSvaraaNi sUtrANi is referred
to
>>> as
>>> 'it', ... blah blah ...
>>>
>>> If you look at this explanation and what the pANini rule above says, you
>>> must already raise a question. How in the world did Varadaraaja mahodaya
>>> conclude that the above sUtram talks about the 'it' sa.nj~naa ??? There
is
>>> no word called 'it' in the above sUtram isn't it?
>>> That's a quiz question for you, whose answer will be revealed in the
next
>>> lesson.
>>>
>>> Now that I gave you enough basis to start understanding the LSK, knowing
>>> that my pace so far has been too slow for you, I will rapidly introduce
>>> several new terms in this lesson.
>>>
>>> *adarshanaM lopaH |* 1.1.60
>>>
>>> The sa.nj~naa 'lopaH' means the hiding of something.
>>>
>>> tasya lopaH |
>>>
>>> The 'it' i.e., the last consonant in aN, ach etc. when used in a sutra,
>>> doesn't have any meaning by itself, and should be dropped (*lopaH*)
>>> wherever
>>> it occurs. It is there only to abbreviate things as the next sUtra says:
>>>
>>> *aadirantyena sahetaa = aadiH antyena saha itaa |* 1.1.71
>>>
>>> LSK: *antyena itaa sahita aadiH, madhyagaanaaM svasya cha sa.nj~naa
syaat
>>> |
>>> yathaa, aN iti a i u varNaanaaM sa.nj~naa |
>>>
>>> *The above sUtra introduces paaNini's abbreviation for letter sequences,
>>> such as 'ach' and 'hal' that I talked about in the first lesson. It
says,
>>> the first letter followed by an 'it' denotes the first letter along with
>>> all
>>> intervening letters upto but excluding the last 'it'
>>>
>>> e.g., aN denotes a i u
>>>
>>> uukAlojjhhrasvadIrghaplutaH = uu kaalaH ach hrasva-diirgha-plutaH |
1.1.27
>>>
>>> This sutra introduces the terms *hrasva*, *diirgha *and *pluta*. It says
>>> that in Sanskrit there are three time intervals (kaala maatraaH) in
which
>>> a
>>> vowel can be uttered: hrasva, diirgha and pluta
>>> like in the three ways of saying 'u'
>>> i.e., u, uu, uuu
>>> This applies to all the vowels i.e., ach varNaaH like a i u R^i L^i e ai
o
>>> au
>>> However, some other exceptions will be introduced that prevent e ai o au
>>> from having hrasva form.
>>>
>>> The next set of rules introduce the three possible tones (crudely, the
>>> pitch
>>> at which a sound is uttered):
>>>
>>> *ucchairudaattaH = ucchaiH udaattaH |* high-pitched tone is udaatta
>>> *nIchairanudaattaH = niichaiH anudaattaH |* low-pitched tone is
anudaatta
>>> *samaahaaraH svaritaH = samaahaaraH svaritaH |* the neutralization of
high
>>> and low pitch, i.e. the middle pitch is svaritaH
>>>
>>> I am not sure about what svarita means. Can some expert help me here? Is
>>> it
>>> the middle pitch or the other elongated pitch we have as in
>>> 'yaat' of 'prachodayaat'?
>>>
>>> The next rule introduces the concept of a nasal sound - *anunaasika*
>>>
>>> mukha-naasikaa-vachano-anunaasikaH |
>>>
>>> The letter uttered with both the mouth and nose is called anunaasika
>>> By derivation, a letter uttered without a nasal component is called
>>> ananunAsika (not nasal).
>>>
>>> Quiz:
>>> 1. Given the above rules, in Sanskrit, in how many possible ways can the
>>> following letters be uttered????a i u R^i e ai o au
>>>
>>> Answer to trick question: aShTaadhyaayii, meaning "8-chaptered", has 8
>>> chapters.
>>>
>>> In the next lesson, we shall examine Sanskrit alphabet's is phonetic
basis
>>> and its systematic arrangement on that account.
>>>
>>> bhavadiiyaH,
>>> - Sai.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or customize your subscription or topics of interest,
visit
>>> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/options/sanskrit
>>> and follow instructions.
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or customize your subscription or topics of interest,
visit
>> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/options/sanskrit
>> and follow instructions.
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 06:36:13 +0530
> From: P N Krishnamurthy <pn.krishnamur...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 3 -
> To: Sanskrit Mailing List <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <991962660907011806r62760935k74d6fd6567c1b...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Dear All,
>
> ?????????.
> Is is possible for me to get authentic recitation of ???????? ?????? .
> I am willing to pay for it
>
> Regards,
> Krishnamurthy
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Sai Susarla<sai.susa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> In the last episode, you learnt that 'sa.nj~naa' means a term used to
denote
>> a concept. I also introduced you to the first sa.nj~naa called 'it'.
>>
>> halantyaM |?? 1.3.3
>> (1.3.3 means this is the 3rd paaNini suutram in the 3rd quarter (paadam)
of
>> 1st chapter (adhyaayaH)
>>
>> Here is a trick question: How many chapters does paaNini's aShTaadhyaayii
>> have? Answer at the end :-)
>>
>> The laghu siddhaanta kaumudii (LSK) is a Cliff's notes or guidebook to
>> paaNini's aShTaadhyaayii written by SrI varadaraajaachaarya. He himself
said
>> it is 'paaNiniiya praveshaaya', introduction to paanini's treatise
>>
>> It explains selected paaNini suutras (not in the aShTaadhyaayii order) so
as
>> to gradually unfold several aspects of sanskrit grammar grouped
conceptwise.
>> The first chapter of LSK introduces many common grammatical terms, and
hence
>> is called 'sa.nj~naa prakaraNam'.
>>
>> LSK quotes the above as the first sUtram and gives its explanation as
>> follows:
>>
>> upadeshe antyaM hal it syaat | sUtreShu adR^iShTaM padaM sUtrAntaraat
>> anuvartaniiyam sarvatra |
>>
>> which means, 'The last consonant in maaheSvaraaNi sUtrANi is referred to
as
>> 'it', ... blah blah ...
>>
>> If you look at this explanation and what the pANini rule above says, you
>> must already raise a question. How in the world did Varadaraaja mahodaya
>> conclude that the above sUtram talks about the 'it' sa.nj~naa ??? There
is
>> no word called 'it' in the above sUtram isn't it?
>> That's a quiz question for you, whose answer will be revealed in the next
>> lesson.
>>
>> Now that I gave you enough basis to start understanding the LSK, knowing
>> that my pace so far has been too slow for you, I will rapidly introduce
>> several new terms in this lesson.
>>
>> adarshanaM lopaH | 1.1.60
>>
>> The sa.nj~naa 'lopaH' means the hiding of something.
>>
>> tasya lopaH |
>>
>> The 'it' i.e., the last consonant in aN, ach etc. when used in a sutra,
>> doesn't have any meaning by itself, and should be dropped (lopaH)
wherever
>> it occurs. It is there only to abbreviate things as the next sUtra says:
>>
>> aadirantyena sahetaa = aadiH antyena saha itaa | 1.1.71
>>
>> LSK: antyena itaa sahita aadiH, madhyagaanaaM svasya cha sa.nj~naa syaat
|
>> yathaa, aN iti a i u varNaanaaM sa.nj~naa |
>>
>> The above sUtra introduces paaNini's abbreviation for letter sequences,
such
>> as 'ach' and 'hal' that I talked about in the first lesson. It says,
>> the first letter followed by an 'it' denotes the first letter along with
all
>> intervening letters upto but excluding the last 'it'
>>
>> e.g., aN denotes a i u
>>
>> uukAlojjhhrasvadIrghaplutaH = uu kaalaH ach hrasva-diirgha-plutaH |
1.1.27
>>
>> This sutra introduces the terms hrasva, diirgha and pluta. It says that
in
>> Sanskrit there are three time intervals (kaala maatraaH) in which a vowel
>> can be uttered: hrasva, diirgha and pluta
>> like in the three ways of saying 'u'
>> i.e., u, uu, uuu
>> This applies to all the vowels i.e., ach varNaaH like a i u R^i L^i e ai
o
>> au
>> However, some other exceptions will be introduced that prevent e ai o au
>> from having hrasva form.
>>
>> The next set of rules introduce the three possible tones (crudely, the
pitch
>> at which a sound is uttered):
>>
>> ucchairudaattaH = ucchaiH udaattaH | high-pitched tone is udaatta
>> nIchairanudaattaH = niichaiH anudaattaH | low-pitched tone is anudaatta
>> samaahaaraH svaritaH = samaahaaraH svaritaH | the neutralization of high
and
>> low pitch, i.e. the middle pitch is svaritaH
>>
>> I am not sure about what svarita means. Can some expert help me here? Is
it
>> the middle pitch or the other elongated pitch we have as in
>> 'yaat' of 'prachodayaat'?
>>
>> The next rule introduces the concept of a nasal sound - anunaasika
>>
>> mukha-naasikaa-vachano-anunaasikaH |
>>
>> The letter uttered with both the mouth and nose is called anunaasika
>> By derivation, a letter uttered without a nasal component is called
>> ananunAsika (not nasal).
>>
>> Quiz:
>> 1. Given the above rules, in Sanskrit, in how many possible ways can the
>> following letters be uttered??? a i u R^i e ai o au
>>
>> Answer to trick question: aShTaadhyaayii, meaning "8-chaptered", has 8
>> chapters.
>>
>> In the next lesson, we shall examine Sanskrit alphabet's is phonetic
basis
>> and its systematic arrangement on that account.
>>
>> bhavadiiyaH,
>> - Sai.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or customize your subscription or topics of interest,
visit
>> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/options/sanskrit
>> and follow instructions.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> P.N.Krishnamurthy
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 12:40:37 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jay Vaidya <deejayvai...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Sanskrit] Notation for svaras - rigvedic tradition
> To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
> Message-ID: <140307.49784...@web84302.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> This refers to a topic started from vyakaraNa vaibhavam - part 3.
>
> The annotation of svaras in written rigvedic hymns is meant for quick
writing, and marks only a few svaras, the rest of the unmarked svaras are
UNAMBIGUOUSLY inferred.
>
> (Naresh has written more about the kR^ishhNa-yajurveda tradition.)
>
> The main basis for this traditional shortcut - and I apologize for calling
it "short"cut, because no one ever writes in any longer annotation - is the
observation by pANini, used as his starting point? -
> "anudAttam padamekavarjam | 6.1.158"
> In a "pada" (roughly speaking "usable formed-word") all syllablesare
anudAtta EXCEPT one of them. So then only that one will have to be marked
with lines, and the rest can be taken to be anudAtta.
> However, the complications do not end there.
> Every udAtta is automatically followed by a svarita.
> udAttAd anudAttasya svaritaH | 8.4.66 pANini
>
> "Following an udAtta, anudAtta becomes svarita"
> If there are any more syllables after that svarita, these are converted to
an undifferentiated form called "prachaya".
>
> Thus a typical long "word" (please note that "word" is vague - svaras
affect each other beyond the "pada" units) would have the following series
of syllables with svaras.
> (a bunch of anudAttas) -the last anudAtta-one udAtta-one svarita-(some
number of prachaya)
> R^ik scribes do not want to waste their time marking all of the svaras. So
the first (bunch of anudAttas) is not marked, and the final (tail of
prachayas) is not marked.
> Only the anudAtta before the "special svara (usually udAtta)" is marked
with a line below. To make it confusing to us, but not R^ik scribes, an
unmarked syllable after a marked anudAtta is NECESSARILY udAtta!
> Usually this is followed by a svarita. The svarita is marked with a
vertical line.
>
> Thus if you see a word with a string of unmarked syllables, an underlined
syllable, an unmarked syllable, an over-vertical-marked syllable, some
unmarked syllables, this is quite unambiguous if you know the rules. It is:
> string of unmarked syllables (all anudAtta),
> an underlined syllable (anudAtta),
> an unmarked
> syllable (udAtta),
> an over-vertical-marked syllable (svarita),
> some unmarked syllables (all prachaya)
>
> Note: "anudAttam padamekavarjam" is only the beginning "general rule" of a
fairly complex svaraprakriyA. Starting from 6.1.158 through 6.1.223,
continuing from 6.2.1 samAsasvaras... there are also a few other islands of
svara-related sUtras - even in the first adhyAya.
>
> In my copy of the siddhAntakaumudI (chaukhambA prakAshana), the
commentator has kindly analyzed the full RV1.1.1 agnimILe... in terms of
script markings and rules regarding the svaras. If we can get the unicode to
show in digests, I will try to copy that page for the list (currently my
digest shows unicode devanAgarI as squiggles).
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 14:13:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jay Vaidya <deejayvai...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 2 -
> arthanirNaya
> To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
> Message-ID: <402842.77045...@web84307.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> chandrashekhara-mahodayaH alikhat -
> *?????????? ????????? ????????? ??????????? ????
> vyAkaraNAt padasiddhiH padasiddheH arthanirNayaH bhavati |
>
> i.e., from grammar words are formed, from wordformation meaning is
established.
>
> While this is an interesting sentence, it is not the opinion of either
pANini or pata~jjali
>
> pANini mentions why some of the rules he gives are not final
> 1.2.56 ... arthasya anyapramANatvAt |
> "because the standard (final authority, proof) for meaning is elsewhere"
>
> In the 1st daily reading (Ahnika) pata~jjali discusses and agrees with
kAtyAyana's saying:
> sidhhaH shabdArthasambandhaH |
> The association of a word with its meaning is a done fact.
> pata~jjali later explains that this comes from the speakers. He fully
agrees that words that do not conform to grammatical rules are also
meaningful. Thus "gAvI goNI gopotalikA" that some people used to say in his
time mean "cow/bull" just the same as the official word "go".
>
> nAgesha (the 16th century master grammarian) quotes a well-known principle
-
> upeyapratipattyarthA upAyA avyavasthitA |
> Grammatical rules are arbitrary rules to get to the final product. "Once
what is to be achieved is achieved, the means do not remain." Thus after
getting to the desired word, there is no reality to the grammatical rules.
But the meaning-word association is there. So grammar has nothing to do with
a words having meaning.
>
> I think the modesty of these thinkers would be astounding, except when we
realize that they are speaking the simple truth. It is not their modesty, it
is their clear-headed truthfulness, not clouded by false arrogance -? that
is astounding!
>
> Dhananjay
>
> --- From: Chandra Sekhar <shekhar4sansk...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 2 -
> ??? saMj~naa
>
> ???????? ??? ???? ????????? ?????? ????????? ---------
>
> *?????????? ????????? ????????? ??????????? ???? *
> *??????? ?????? ?????? ?????????????? ??? ?????? *
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 18:28:52 -0400
> From: Naresh Cuntoor <nares...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] [grammar] vyAkaraNa vaibhavaM - part 2 -
> arthanirNaya
> To: Sanskrit Mailing List <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <f4ce5f9f0907021528k5b59548bt42897f99b81cb...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>> vyAkaraNAt padasiddhiH padasiddheH arthanirNayaH bhavati |
>>
>> i.e., from grammar words are formed, from wordformation meaning is
>> established.
>>
>> While this is an interesting sentence, it is not the opinion of either
>> pANini or pata~jjali
>>
>
> Patanjali's Potter Principle substantiates Dhananjay's explanation.
>
> The short version may be paraphrased as "When one wants pots, one goes
> to a potter. But when one wants words, one does not go to a
> grammarian, instead goes to people who use words."
>
> The longish version from Mahabhashya reads thus.
>
> Q: kathaM punaH j~JAyate siddhaH shabdaH, arthaH, sambandhash-cheti?
> A: lokataH ...
> tad yathA ghaTena kAryaM kariShyan kumbhakAra-kulaM gatvA Aha, "kuru
> ghaTam! kAryam anena kariShyAmi" iti. na tadvat shabdAn
> prayokShyamANaH vaiyAkaraNa-kulaM gatvA Aha, "kuru shabdAn. (ahaM
> kRutAn shabdAn) prayokShye," iti
>
>
> tarhi anena siddham ... shabda-shAlAbhir-alam?!
>
>
> Naresh
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 09:40:53 +0530
> From: Bhaskar Joshi <bjo...@pobox.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Notation for svaras - rigvedic tradition
> To: Sanskrit Mailing List <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
> Cc: deejayvai...@yahoo.com
> Message-ID:
> <a3b56d790907022110u331ecb58k27634ce333644...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Mr.Jay Vaidya and all ?????????,
> I have been following the discussions with interest and have a suggestion,
> the roman (English) script is not very suitable for ??????? . why not use
> ???????? script for the same. You may download the software (Baraha
Direct)
> from www.baraha.com . it can be used to create Unicode text; the best
part
> is you will almost use the same typing strokes as you do with roman script
> and still get the Devnagari fonts !! worth trying.
> with best regards and ??????,
> Bhaskar Joshi
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Jay Vaidya <deejayvai...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> This refers to a topic started from vyakaraNa vaibhavam - part 3.
>>
>> The annotation of svaras in written rigvedic hymns is meant for quick
>> writing, and marks only a few svaras, the rest of the unmarked svaras are
>> UNAMBIGUOUSLY inferred.
>>
>> (Naresh has written more about the kR^ishhNa-yajurveda tradition.)
>>
>> The main basis for this traditional shortcut - and I apologize for
calling
>> it "short"cut, because no one ever writes in any longer annotation - is
the
>> observation by pANini, used as his starting point -
>> "anudAttam padamekavarjam | 6.1.158"
>> In a "pada" (roughly speaking "usable formed-word") all syllablesare
>> anudAtta EXCEPT one of them. So then only that one will have to be marked
>> with lines, and the rest can be taken to be anudAtta.
>> However, the complications do not end there.
>> Every udAtta is automatically followed by a svarita.
>> udAttAd anudAttasya svaritaH | 8.4.66 pANini
>> "Following an udAtta, anudAtta becomes svarita"
>> If there are any more syllables after that svarita, these are converted
to
>> an undifferentiated form called "prachaya".
>>
>> Thus a typical long "word" (please note that "word" is vague - svaras
>> affect each other beyond the "pada" units) would have the following
series
>> of syllables with svaras.
>> (a bunch of anudAttas) -the last anudAtta-one udAtta-one svarita-(some
>> number of prachaya)
>> R^ik scribes do not want to waste their time marking all of the svaras.
So
>> the first (bunch of anudAttas) is not marked, and the final (tail of
>> prachayas) is not marked.
>> Only the anudAtta before the "special svara (usually udAtta)" is marked
>> with a line below. To make it confusing to us, but not R^ik scribes, an
>> unmarked syllable after a marked anudAtta is NECESSARILY udAtta!
>> Usually this is followed by a svarita. The svarita is marked with a
>> vertical line.
>>
>> Thus if you see a word with a string of unmarked syllables, an underlined
>> syllable, an unmarked syllable, an over-vertical-marked syllable, some
>> unmarked syllables, this is quite unambiguous if you know the rules. It
is:
>> string of unmarked syllables (all anudAtta),
>> an underlined syllable (anudAtta),
>> an unmarked syllable (udAtta),
>> an over-vertical-marked syllable (svarita),
>> some unmarked syllables (all prachaya)
>>
>> Note: "anudAttam padamekavarjam" is only the beginning "general rule" of
a
>> fairly complex svaraprakriyA. Starting from 6.1.158 through 6.1.223,
>> continuing from 6.2.1 samAsasvaras... there are also a few other islands
of
>> svara-related sUtras - even in the first adhyAya.
>>
>> In my copy of the siddhAntakaumudI (chaukhambA prakAshana), the
commentator
>> has kindly analyzed the full RV1.1.1 agnimILe... in terms of script
markings
>> and rules regarding the svaras. If we can get the unicode to show in
>> digests, I will try to copy that page for the list (currently my digest
>> shows unicode devanAgarI as squiggles).
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or customize your subscription or topics of interest,
visit
>> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/options/sanskrit
>> and follow instructions.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Bhaskar Joshi
> M: +919820067376
> M (USA):+1 832 330 3213
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>
> _______________________________________________
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or customize your subscription and email delivery, visit
> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/options/sanskrit
> and follow instructions.
>
> End of sanskrit Digest, Vol 51, Issue 1
> ***************************************
>
--
If God brings you to it, He will bring you through it.
Happy moments, praise God.
Difficult moments, seek God.
Quiet moments, worship God.
Painful moments, trust God.
Every moment, thank God
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