[SC-L] SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
I'm not a CISSP person just because my clients haven't required it yet. However, they are concerned with application security and restricting access to those who are not authorized (in addition to XSS, SQL injection, and the usual list of suspects). I call myself a 'secure developer' only because I *think * I know how to code countermeasures and I am aware of the types of attacks an application can go through. I see the field of programming naturally adopting security techniques in their code the same way quality techniques crept into our lives. Remember when a person could code a few web screens and call himself a web developer without ever one considering heap management, efficient SQL, and frameworks that helped managed concurrent users. I see security and all its coding techniques following in the same path. Eventually, it will not only be required but assumed by the clients. Those who can't adapt won't be hired. I have actually stated working security related questions into our interview process. If I hire a web developer and he/she has never heard of social engineering, I move on to the next candidate. Just my thoughts. Jason Grembi Lead Web Developer ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > certifications such as CISSP whereby the exams that > prove you are a security professional talk all about > physical security and network security but really don't > address software development in any meaningful way. Perhaps what is needed is a separate certification. It would be nice to know that someone knows how to write software in a secure manner, but it's not necessary that they know all about physical security, firewall rules, etc. It could even be done at multiple levels, like Sun's Java certs, to certify knowledge of secure design principles vs. secure *implementation* principles, maybe even going onward to principles of building security into the process. Something like, say, Certified Secure Programmer, Coder, and Software Engineer, respectively. > Would be intriguing for folks here that blog to discuss ways ...in their blogs? That's not discussion, that's pontificating. It also detracts from discussion, by fracturing it. Discussion is what we're having *here*, so whether someone blogs is irrelevant. -Dave ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you, there, Michael. You're looking at things far too narrowly. And here's a very simple example: Small business. Single DMZ. Hosts DB and Web App on separate platforms. Web app needs to make back-end calls to DB. There's no reason whatsoever why the DB itself needs to be directly exposed to the Internet. Thus, you implement a firewall that restricts ingress access on ports 80/443 to the web server only. This scenario would exist irregardless of the quality of the underlying code, based on principles of default deny, defense in depth, segregation of duties, etc. In other words, don't put all your eggs in the "securely coded" basket. --- On the original topic... I don't think titles or certifications or even security-related actions make a security professional. I know personnel within security departments who perform access management tasks without a solid understanding of what all is contained within infosec. They don't know the security triad (C-I-A), they don't necessarily have a sound understanding of why they're doing what they do, etc. Yet they have "security" in their titles. Similarly, I've interviewed many a CISSP who I would not consider to be an infosec professional. Just because you can memorize a few facts within the 10 infosec domains does not mean you get it. I would even go so far as to say that just because a developer reads the OWASP Top 10 and then begins performing input validation does not make them an infosec professional. It makes them a better developer. Bottom line, then, is that a true infosec professional should be defined as someone working in a dedicated security role who distinguishes themselves by their level of knowledge, wisdom, and experience that can be demonstrably applied within the infosec genre. fwiw & tgif. cheers, -ben -- Benjamin Tomhave, MS, CISSP, NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://falcon.secureconsulting.net/ LI: http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1539292 Blog: http://www.secureconsulting.net/ Photos: http://photos.secureconsulting.net/ "We must scrupulously guard the civil liberties of all citizens, whatever their background. We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." -President Franklin Delano Roosevelt On Fri, March 9, 2007 7:54 am, Michael S Hines wrote: > I respectfully disagree. > > The need for a firewall or IDS is due to the poor coding of the receptor > of > network traffic - so you have to prevent bad things from reaching the > receptor (which is the TCP/IP stack and then the host operating system - > and > then the middleware and then the application). > > The reason you have to prevent bad things from reaching the receptor (OS) > is > because of poor coding practices in the receptor (OS). > > In terms of state diagrams - you have an undefied state in the code - > which > produces unpredictable actions. Technically speaking, it's undesireable > but > predictable actions - that's how the software can be used to gain > unauthorized entry. And once someone finds the hole - the very mechanism > used for protection (networks) is used to spread the story. Kind of like > the farmer eating his seed corn. :) > > Regarding roles - there are many who do Infosec - in many different roles. > Law makers, lawyers, Boards of Directors, management, policy staff, > technical staff, network engineers, programmers, quality assurance staff, > users, ethical hackers, unethical hackers, et al. > > I'm not sure we're moving the industry forward by trying to say "I am one" > but "You are not" - are we? > > Mike Hines > - > Michael S Hines > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org > List information, subscriptions, etc - > http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l > List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php > SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) > as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. > ___ > ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
I respectfully disagree. The need for a firewall or IDS is due to the poor coding of the receptor of network traffic - so you have to prevent bad things from reaching the receptor (which is the TCP/IP stack and then the host operating system - and then the middleware and then the application). The reason you have to prevent bad things from reaching the receptor (OS) is because of poor coding practices in the receptor (OS). In terms of state diagrams - you have an undefied state in the code - which produces unpredictable actions. Technically speaking, it's undesireable but predictable actions - that's how the software can be used to gain unauthorized entry. And once someone finds the hole - the very mechanism used for protection (networks) is used to spread the story. Kind of like the farmer eating his seed corn. :) Regarding roles - there are many who do Infosec - in many different roles. Law makers, lawyers, Boards of Directors, management, policy staff, technical staff, network engineers, programmers, quality assurance staff, users, ethical hackers, unethical hackers, et al. I'm not sure we're moving the industry forward by trying to say "I am one" but "You are not" - are we? Mike Hines - Michael S Hines [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
On Thu, 8 Mar 2007, Greg Beeley wrote: > Perhaps one of the issues here is that if you are in operations work > (network security, etc.), there are more aspects of the CISSP that are > relevant to your daily work. In software development, there is usually > just the one - app development sec - that the developer thinks about, > unless the code has inherent security functionality, in which case > access control, architecture/models, and cryptography can be important > too. Secure development certification will hopefully come to the marketplace in droves in the next year or two. One organization is not-so-privately-but-technically-not-yet-publicly preparing to roll something out in the coming months, and hopefully that will inspire others. Insert obligatory cert disclaimer here, but geez it's badly needed to raise the bar even a hair. > developer meet, to be a "security professional"? Should there be > something like the Common Criteria EAL's, but somewhat less formal, > to encourage broader use in labeling projects and code, esp. in the > open-source world? Dave Litchfield and I have *very* casually investigated forming a CC-like concept of Vulnerability Assessment Assurance Levels (VAAL) which is intended to reflect the depth of a vuln researcher's analysis as some crude but semi-repeatable measure of assurance. i've also done some thinking about vulnerability complexity, and I assume I've mentioned my vulnerability theory work on this list since I never shut up about it. Such concepts could be turned around to reflect the depth of understanding that a developer has - e.g. they know enough to try to strip out
Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
> [...] I do suspect that some of it is tied to the romance of > certifications such as CISSP whereby the exams that prove you are a > security professional talk all about physical security and network > security but really don't address software development in any meaningful > way. [...] That's interesting. While I have not taken the CISSP, I have studied it a bit, and software & app development security is supposed to be one of the 10 domains that the test covers. Perhaps one of the issues here is that if you are in operations work (network security, etc.), there are more aspects of the CISSP that are relevant to your daily work. In software development, there is usually just the one - app development sec - that the developer thinks about, unless the code has inherent security functionality, in which case access control, architecture/models, and cryptography can be important too. I agree that the software developer is a key part of the security big picture. In fact one of the reasons that firewalls have become so popular today is because of software bugs in host OS's and services... But software dev is unique in several ways that mean that it may be hard for the CISSP to cover it in a balanced manner. Teaching an IT person about fire and lightning protection, or about routers or firewalls, about ACL's, or even about risk management, does not have a steep learning curve. But learning the basics needed to really understand even high-level concepts regarding software security & high-assurance development practices is a much higher learning curve endeavor, in my view, for the typical IT person. A few questions, then -- should all developers be/become security professionals? Even the most innocent "pet project" application can end up having worldwide security implications, given the way apps can be rapidly popularized these days. What qualifications should a developer meet, to be a "security professional"? Should there be something like the Common Criteria EAL's, but somewhat less formal, to encourage broader use in labeling projects and code, esp. in the open-source world? - Greg 08-Mar-2007 ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
What Garigue was trying to say is that deploying a firewall on a network is not security's mandate; it is _part of_ running a network. Basic hygiene. Brushing your teeth is part of having teeth. Deploying anti-virus on a windows desktop is not security; it is _part of_ operating a desktop. This is an important distinction, because it captures why so much security spend is targeted at the wrong issues. Security evolved out of operations, and today we all still live with this historical baggage. If you want to operate a network or a desktop in an enterprise, you have certain security responsibilities defined by information security policy...perhaps even backed up mechanisms, good for you, but these have little to do with information security, much like going to a dentist that just told you to brush your teeth and gave you a tooth brush would have extremely limited valueyet this is what we get from information security groups across this great cyberland of ours. I would point you to the fallacy of keeping up with the Jones' explored in detail at the Justice League http://www.cigital.com/justiceleague/2007/02/22/keeping-up-with-the-jones-se curity-initiatives/ Security groups that help businesses make risk tradeoffs based on functionality, time, and cost add value (you know just like software development does). "Amateurs study cryptography; professionals study economics." -- Allan Schiffman -gp On 3/8/07 1:07 PM, "Shea, Brian A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The right answer is both IMO. You need the thinkers, integrators, and > operators to do it right. The term Security Professional at its basic > level simply denotes someone who works to make things secure. > > You can't be secure with only application security any more than you can > be secure with only firewalls or NIDs. The entire ecosystem and > lifecycle must be risk managed and that is accomplished by security > professionals. Each professional may have a specialty due to the > breadth of topics covered by Security (let's not forget our Physical > Security either), but all would be expected to act as professionals. > Professionals in this definition being people who are certified and > expected to operate within specified standards of quality and behavior > much like CISSP, CPA, MD, etc. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gunnar Peterson > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:13 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: SC-L@securecoding.org > Subject: Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional? > > actually just the former. Robert Garigue characterized firewalls, nids, > et al as good network hygiene. The equivalent of a dentist telling you > to brush your teeth. An infosec pro needs much more depth than that. The > model is charlemagne > > http://1raindrop.typepad.com/1_raindrop/2007/02/thinking_about_.html > > -gp > -----Original Message- > From: "McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 10:27 am > Subject: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional? > > If you have two individuals, one of which has been practicing secure > coding= > practices and encouraging others to do so for years while another > individu= al was involved with firewalls, intrusion detection, > information security p= olicies and so on, are they both information > security professionals or just= > the later? > > > > * This communication, including attachments, is > for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary, > confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended > recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution > is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please > notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this > communication and destroy all copies. > > * > > > > ___ > Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org > List information, subscriptions, etc - > http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l > List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php > SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC > (http://www.KRvW.com) > as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. > ___ ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
On 3/9/07, McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Traditionally InfoSec folks defined themselves as being knowledgable in firewalls, policies, etc. Lately, many enterprises are starting to recognize the importance of security within the software development lifecycle where even some have acknowledged that software is a common problem space for those things traditionally thought of as infrastructure. The harder part is not in terms of recognizing the trend but in terms of folks from the old world acknowledging folks from the new world (software development) also as security professionals. I haven't seen many folks make this transition. I do suspect that some of it is tied to the romance of certifications such as CISSP whereby the exams that prove you are a security professional talk all about physical security and network security but really don't address software development in any meaningful way. Would be intriguing for folks here that blog to discuss ways for folks to transition / acknowledge respect not as just software developers with a specialization in security but in being true security professionals and treat them like peers all working on one common goal. i hear you on this one. australia, at least melbourne, still doesn't seem to have any idea of software/application security professionals. almost all jobs that have 'security' in them, then go on to talk about all the firewalls you must know how to configure. *sigh*. then there is the pen-testing side. there's should be a new field, "security design" that accompanies application architect, etc. then you have professional guidance of the security issues when building for app. -Original Message- From: Shea, Brian A [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:07 PM To: Gunnar Peterson; McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT) Cc: SC-L@securecoding.org Subject: RE: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional? The right answer is both IMO. You need the thinkers, integrators, and operators to do it right. The term Security Professional at its basic level simply denotes someone who works to make things secure. You can't be secure with only application security any more than you can be secure with only firewalls or NIDs. The entire ecosystem and lifecycle must be risk managed and that is accomplished by security professionals. Each professional may have a specialty due to the breadth of topics covered by Security (let's not forget our Physical Security either), but all would be expected to act as professionals. Professionals in this definition being people who are certified and expected to operate within specified standards of quality and behavior much like CISSP, CPA, MD, etc. * This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this communication and destroy all copies. * ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___ -- mike 00110001 <3 00110111 ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
Traditionally InfoSec folks defined themselves as being knowledgable in firewalls, policies, etc. Lately, many enterprises are starting to recognize the importance of security within the software development lifecycle where even some have acknowledged that software is a common problem space for those things traditionally thought of as infrastructure. The harder part is not in terms of recognizing the trend but in terms of folks from the old world acknowledging folks from the new world (software development) also as security professionals. I haven't seen many folks make this transition. I do suspect that some of it is tied to the romance of certifications such as CISSP whereby the exams that prove you are a security professional talk all about physical security and network security but really don't address software development in any meaningful way. Would be intriguing for folks here that blog to discuss ways for folks to transition / acknowledge respect not as just software developers with a specialization in security but in being true security professionals and treat them like peers all working on one common goal. -Original Message- From: Shea, Brian A [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 2:07 PM To: Gunnar Peterson; McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT) Cc: SC-L@securecoding.org Subject: RE: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional? The right answer is both IMO. You need the thinkers, integrators, and operators to do it right. The term Security Professional at its basic level simply denotes someone who works to make things secure. You can't be secure with only application security any more than you can be secure with only firewalls or NIDs. The entire ecosystem and lifecycle must be risk managed and that is accomplished by security professionals. Each professional may have a specialty due to the breadth of topics covered by Security (let's not forget our Physical Security either), but all would be expected to act as professionals. Professionals in this definition being people who are certified and expected to operate within specified standards of quality and behavior much like CISSP, CPA, MD, etc. * This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this communication and destroy all copies. * ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
The right answer is both IMO. You need the thinkers, integrators, and operators to do it right. The term Security Professional at its basic level simply denotes someone who works to make things secure. You can't be secure with only application security any more than you can be secure with only firewalls or NIDs. The entire ecosystem and lifecycle must be risk managed and that is accomplished by security professionals. Each professional may have a specialty due to the breadth of topics covered by Security (let's not forget our Physical Security either), but all would be expected to act as professionals. Professionals in this definition being people who are certified and expected to operate within specified standards of quality and behavior much like CISSP, CPA, MD, etc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gunnar Peterson Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:13 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: SC-L@securecoding.org Subject: Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional? actually just the former. Robert Garigue characterized firewalls, nids, et al as good network hygiene. The equivalent of a dentist telling you to brush your teeth. An infosec pro needs much more depth than that. The model is charlemagne http://1raindrop.typepad.com/1_raindrop/2007/02/thinking_about_.html -gp -Original Message- From: "McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 10:27 am Subject: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional? If you have two individuals, one of which has been practicing secure coding= practices and encouraging others to do so for years while another individu= al was involved with firewalls, intrusion detection, information security p= olicies and so on, are they both information security professionals or just= the later? * This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this communication and destroy all copies. * ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___ ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
actually just the former. Robert Garigue characterized firewalls, nids, et al as good network hygiene. The equivalent of a dentist telling you to brush your teeth. An infosec pro needs much more depth than that. The model is charlemagne http://1raindrop.typepad.com/1_raindrop/2007/02/thinking_about_.html -gp -Original Message- From: "McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 10:27 am Subject: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional? If you have two individuals, one of which has been practicing secure coding= practices and encouraging others to do so for years while another individu= al was involved with firewalls, intrusion detection, information security p= olicies and so on, are they both information security professionals or just= the later? * This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this communication and destroy all copies. * ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
[SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?
If you have two individuals, one of which has been practicing secure coding practices and encouraging others to do so for years while another individual was involved with firewalls, intrusion detection, information security policies and so on, are they both information security professionals or just the later? * This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this communication and destroy all copies. * ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. ___
