Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
FWIW - The tune you provided below is not the same as the version provided in any of the Lomax references I have. The same tune, of course, but your's in more "musically complex" than either of the Lomax's. John X:01 T:Streets of Laredo B: Z: M:3/4 L:1/8 K:G D|d4 c B|c2 d3 c |B2 A2 G2 |F2 D3 D | G4 F G | A2 B3 c | B2 A2 G2 | A4 D2 | d2 ed cB | c2 d3 c | B2 A2 G2 | F2 D2 D2 | G4 F G | A2 d3 c | B2 G2 A2 | G4 |] -- 90 Trefethen Ave Peaks Island, ME 04108 Tel 207-766-5797 Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
John Erdman wrote: FWIW - The tune you provided below is not the same as the version provided in any of the Lomax references I have. The same tune, of course, but your's in more "musically complex" than either of the Lomax's. Phillips Barry in BFSSNE, 1934, misquoted the title of "The Streets of Laredo" in Carl Sandburg's 'The American Songbag', 1927, p. 263, as "The Cowboy's Lament", so I overlooked that tune as stemming from "The Unfortunate Rake". According to Barry two other early American tunes stemming from it are "St. James Hospital" (A and B) in Sharp and Karpeles 'English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians'. Other early ones are in the Journal of American Folklore. Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
John Erdman wrote: FWIW - The tune you provided below is not the same as the version provided in any of the Lomax references I have. The same tune, of course, but your's in more "musically complex" than either of the Lomax's. John X:01 T:Streets of Laredo B: Z: M:3/4 L:1/8 K:G D|d4 c B|c2 d3 c |B2 A2 G2 |F2 D3 D | G4 F G | A2 B3 c | B2 A2 G2 | A4 D2 | d2 ed cB | c2 d3 c | B2 A2 G2 | F2 D2 D2 | G4 F G | A2 d3 c | B2 G2 A2 | G4 |] -- 90 Trefethen Ave Peaks Island, ME 04108 Tel 207-766-5797 Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html There's a traditional version of "Streets of Laredo" collected in 1960 on the web in the Max Hunter collection that one can play if your Real Audio software will work on the web (mine won't). Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:00:41 -0500, Bruce Olson wrote: The Library of Congress has 'Crosby's Irish Musical Repository', 1808, which contain the tune "The Unfortunate Rake", and is tha source of the Bruce, Is this online? I don't see it in the American Memory Collection choices. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- - I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida Boycott South Carolina! http://www.naacp.org/communications/press_releases/SCEconomic2.asp Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
Abby Sale wrote: On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:00:41 -0500, Bruce Olson wrote: The Library of Congress has 'Crosby's Irish Musical Repository', 1808, which contain the tune "The Unfortunate Rake", and is tha source of the Bruce, Is this online? I don't see it in the American Memory Collection choices. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- - I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida Boycott South Carolina! http://www.naacp.org/communications/press_releases/SCEconomic2.asp Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Not that I know of. Bruce O. Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know an early printing of this melody? The melody was printed in O'Neill's Music of Ireland (1903), and Joyce's Ancient Irish Music (1873). Joyce died about 1914, so even in the remote chance that he composed the tune (he didn't), it would still be out of copyright. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
John Erdman wrote: That tune is known in America as "the Streets of Laredo". Someone here claims copyright to those words and the familiar melody (also used for the Bard of Armagh) and that someone will not allow me permission to use it if I sell the book outside of the U.S., which as a book for the CLARSACH I most certainly want to do! (All the other tunes in the book are public domain.) Cynthia - I have my mother's old banjo tutor of Cowboy Songs from around 1930 and it's got the Streets of Laredo in there, definitely with a copyright on it, not bothered to check whose as the book is buried in a music stool somewhere. However you will not be playing it in the same key and no doubt a couple of notes will be fractionally different in duration, and it's based on an earlier traditional tune, so there is little risk unless you CALL your tune anything associated with a copyright version. David Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
Cynthia - Here's what I found in my library. I have two books with the tune and words in them. The one with the most info is "Best Loved American Folk Songs" by Alan and John Lomax published in 1947. The other is a Alan Lomax book published in 1960, "Folk Songs of North America" Here's a transcript of the text from the first book describing "The Streets of Laredo". quote After "The Chisholm Trail" the most popular Western ballad is the story of the young cowboy who rode the familiar road from rum to ruin. The hundred-odd examples of this ballad in my collection have located the scene of the cowbow's death in almost as many Western towns. As a matter of fact , the young man died in the British Isles, not of gunshot wounds, but of syphilis. Whereupon all the gay ladies of the town, grateful for his generousity to them, followed his coffin to the cemetery. We have one Irish version sung in Cork about the year 1790 which identifies the young man as a soldier and has him take his last journey with the ruffle of military drums: My jewel, my joy, don't trouble me with the drums, Sound the dead march as my corpse goes along; And over my body throw handfuls of laurel, And let them all know that I'm going to my rest. An early English version discovers the "unfortunate lad down by Lock Hospital, wrapped in flannel, so hard was his fate." Here the balladeer goes into medical details: Had she but told me when she disordered me, Had she but told me of it in time, I might have got salts and pills of white mercury, But now I'm cut down in the height of my Prime. Apparently the grim message of thios ballad suited your moralizing folk-singer so well that a warning to young ladies was soon composed. This variant, current in England, is also known to United States singers and begins, in one form: One morning, one morning, one morning in May, I spied a young lady all clad in white linen, All clad in white linen and as cold as the clay. When I was a young girl, I used to see pleasure, When I was a young girl, I used to drink ale, Right out of the ale-house, and into the jail-house, Out of the barroom and down to my grave. Go send for the preacher to come and pray for me, Go send for the doctor to heal up my wounds, My poor head is aching, my sad heart is breaking, My body's salivated and Hell is my doom. end quote The text then goes on to show how the words ultimately morphed into the words for the St James Infirmary Blues. The Alan Lomax version in the later book (1960), the tune is entitled "The Dying Cowboy" and references the 1910 Lomax collection "Cowboy Songs". The tune is slightly different and in a differnt key than the one in the 1947 book. It also suggests that the tune is known as "One Morning in May" in non-cowboy circles. Cynthia, if you are interested in photocopies of these pages please contact me off-list with your mailing address. It's so obvious that this tune and words are part of the folk tradition, it's quite astounding (and absurd) to me that someone would have the chutzpah to claim these tunes and words. Further the cost to someone to "enforce" such a ridiculous claim against what will undoubtably be a "modest" publication wouldn't be worth it. I'm certainly not an expert in these matters but I believe that the tune in a setting you made specifically for the clairsach would be copyrightable **by you**. Also if you need to include words, to use whatever verson you'd like to but to footnote and reference the source as in a scholarly journal. Hope this is useful, John That tune is known in America as "the Streets of Laredo". Someone here claims copyright to those words and the familiar melody (also used for the Bard of Armagh) and that someone will not allow me permission to use it if I sell the book outside of the U.S., which as a book for the CLARSACH I most certainly want to do! (All the other tunes in the book are public domain.) The ancestor of this song is "The Unfortunate Rake". I have been trying to find a citation for that song, and for the melody. My research indicates that it was published as a broadside in London in 1790, but I can't find any copy of that. Does anyone know an early printing of this melody? Early words, that pre-date the American ones? Any ideas or leads will be VERY welcome. I want to go to press so I can get this project off my desk, and move on to the next one! -- 90 Trefethen Ave Peaks Island, ME 04108 Tel 207-766-5797 Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
David writes: | I have my mother's old banjo tutor of Cowboy Songs from around 1930 and it's got the | Streets of Laredo in there, definitely with a copyright on it, not bothered to check |whose | as the book is buried in a music stool somewhere. However you will not be playing it |in | the same key and no doubt a couple of notes will be fractionally different in |duration, | and it's based on an earlier traditional tune, so there is little risk unless you |CALL | your tune anything associated with a copyright version. Indeed. Maybe the best idea is to call it "The Bard of Omagh", and note in the text that it's a variant of the earlier tune "The Unfortunate Rake" and the later American ballad "The Streets of Laredo". This will make it obvious to anyone claiming a copyright that they are making a fraudulent claim on a much earlier tune. Chances are if you present them with the names and dates of the earlier publications, they'll realize that they can't get away with it, and you'll never hear from them again. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
In a message dated 2/23/01 1:21:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed. Maybe the best idea is to call it "The Bard of Omagh", and note in the text that it's a variant of the earlier tune "The Unfortunate Rake" and the later American ballad "The Streets of Laredo". I certainly could do this, and that's my line of reasoning for using the "Unfortunate Rake". But, I've got the same problem with "The Bard" as I do with "The Rake": finding a copy of it with a pre-1927 date! I have a book here that claims the Bard was written in 1801 by Thomas Campbell, but I need some kind of "proof" of that. Even if it's a facsimile re-print of an old book containing that title, melody, and I'll take whatever lyrics I can find at this point! I had great success at the Library of Congress with some of the tunes I chose to use. I actually held in my hands broadsides from circa 1800 for some of them. For those, no one had better dare to claim I violated copyright! It was interesting to see how the words for some of these tunes have changed over the last two centuries. I used the older lyrics, for very obvious reasons! So, anyway: if I get stuck for the Rake, does anyone know where I can find an old copy of "The Bard of Armagh"? --Cynthia Cathcart Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
| ... But, I've got the same problem with "The Bard" as I do | with "The Rake": finding a copy of it with a pre-1927 date! I have a book | here that claims the Bard was written in 1801 by Thomas Campbell, but I need | some kind of "proof" of that. Even if it's a facsimile re-print of an old | book containing that title, melody, and I'll take whatever lyrics I can find | at this point! It's in O'Neill's "Music of Ireland", published in 1903. It's tune 363. The tune is slightly different from Streets of Laredo, but it's obviously the same tune. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/23/01 1:21:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed. Maybe the best idea is to call it "The Bard of Omagh", and note in the text that it's a variant of the earlier tune "The Unfortunate Rake" and the later American ballad "The Streets of Laredo". I certainly could do this, and that's my line of reasoning for using the "Unfortunate Rake". But, I've got the same problem with "The Bard" as I do with "The Rake": finding a copy of it with a pre-1927 date! I have a book here that claims the Bard was written in 1801 by Thomas Campbell, but I need some kind of "proof" of that. Even if it's a facsimile re-print of an old book containing that title, melody, and I'll take whatever lyrics I can find at this point! I had great success at the Library of Congress with some of the tunes I chose to use. I actually held in my hands broadsides from circa 1800 for some of them. For those, no one had better dare to claim I violated copyright! It was interesting to see how the words for some of these tunes have changed over the last two centuries. I used the older lyrics, for very obvious reasons! So, anyway: if I get stuck for the Rake, does anyone know where I can find an old copy of "The Bard of Armagh"? --Cynthia Cathcart Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html The Library of Congress has 'Crosby's Irish Musical Repository', 1808, which contain the tune "The Unfortunate Rake", and is tha source of the ABC of the tune as T060 in file T1.HTM on my website. Smollet Holden gave a version with slightly different timing about 2 years earlier. Both can be found in 'Sources of Irish Music', 1998. No early 19th century copy of the ballad is known, and the earliest extant version seems to be "The Buck's Elegy" reprinted from the Madden collection in Holloway and Black's 'Later English Broadside Ballads.' Bruce Olson -- Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
I need some help. After spending many hours in the library and countless more searching the internet, I've decided to ask my friends for help. I have finished writing a book of "familiar melodies" for beginning players of the clarsach. I have one tune that is giving me trouble, and I am just about ready to cut it from the book, but I really don't want to. That tune is known in America as "the Streets of Laredo". Someone here claims copyright to those words and the familiar melody (also used for the Bard of Armagh) and that someone will not allow me permission to use it if I sell the book outside of the U.S., which as a book for the CLARSACH I most certainly want to do! (All the other tunes in the book are public domain.) The ancestor of this song is "The Unfortunate Rake". I have been trying to find a citation for that song, and for the melody. My research indicates that it was published as a broadside in London in 1790, but I can't find any copy of that. Does anyone know an early printing of this melody? Early words, that pre-date the American ones? Any ideas or leads will be VERY welcome. I want to go to press so I can get this project off my desk, and move on to the next one! Thank you, even if all you can do for me is read this far! --Cynthia Cathcart Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
That tune is known in America as "the Streets of Laredo". Someone here claims copyright to those words and the familiar melody (also used for the Bard of Armagh) and that someone will not allow me permission to use it if I sell the book outside of the U.S., which as a book for the CLARSACH I most certainly want to do! (All the other tunes in the book are public domain.) Cynthia - I'm really really surprised that someone actually claims this song.. And that the claim would deter you. I seem to recall that I first came across the tune and words for the Streets of Laredo" in an old John/Allan Lomax book and it had to have been collected some time before that. I didn't think there'd be any tunes in those collections that would be copyrightable. After all, they were pirated by the Lomaxes. :-) I'll have to go dig in my books in storage to find what I'm remembering. Maybe there's even a reference to the Unfortunate Rake. I'll look tomorrow. John -- 90 Trefethen Ave Peaks Island, ME 04108 Tel 207-766-5797 Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html