Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-25 Thread John Erdman

FWIW -

The tune you provided below is not the same as the  version provided 
in any of the Lomax references I have.  The same tune, of course, but 
your's in more "musically complex" than either of the Lomax's.

John

X:01
T:Streets of Laredo 
B:
Z:
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:G
D|d4 c B|c2 d3 c |B2 A2 G2 |F2 D3 D | G4 F G | A2 B3 c | B2 A2 G2 | A4 D2 |
d2 ed cB | c2 d3 c | B2 A2 G2 | F2 D2 D2 | G4 F G | A2 d3 c | B2 G2 A2 | G4 |]
-- 
90 Trefethen Ave
Peaks Island, ME  04108
Tel  207-766-5797
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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-25 Thread Bruce Olson

John Erdman wrote:
 
 FWIW -
 
 The tune you provided below is not the same as the  version provided
 in any of the Lomax references I have.  The same tune, of course, but
 your's in more "musically complex" than either of the Lomax's.


Phillips Barry in BFSSNE, 1934, misquoted the title of "The
Streets of Laredo" in Carl Sandburg's 'The American Songbag',
1927, p. 263, as "The Cowboy's Lament", so I overlooked that 
tune as stemming from "The Unfortunate Rake". According to Barry 
two other early American tunes stemming from it are "St. James
Hospital" (A and B) in Sharp and Karpeles 'English Folk Songs
from the Southern Appalachians'. Other early ones are in the 
Journal of American Folklore.

Bruce Olson
-- 
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a
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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-25 Thread Bruce Olson

John Erdman wrote:
 
 FWIW -
 
 The tune you provided below is not the same as the  version provided
 in any of the Lomax references I have.  The same tune, of course, but
 your's in more "musically complex" than either of the Lomax's.
 
 John
 
 X:01
 T:Streets of Laredo
 B:
 Z:
 M:3/4
 L:1/8
 K:G
 D|d4 c B|c2 d3 c |B2 A2 G2 |F2 D3 D | G4 F G | A2 B3 c | B2 A2 G2 | A4 D2 |
 d2 ed cB | c2 d3 c | B2 A2 G2 | F2 D2 D2 | G4 F G | A2 d3 c | B2 G2 A2 | G4 |]
 --
 90 Trefethen Ave
 Peaks Island, ME  04108
 Tel  207-766-5797
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There's a traditional version of "Streets of Laredo" collected in 1960
on the web in the Max Hunter collection that one can play if your Real
Audio software will work on the web (mine won't).

Bruce Olson
  
-- 
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a
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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-24 Thread Abby Sale

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:00:41 -0500, Bruce Olson wrote:

The Library of Congress has 'Crosby's Irish Musical Repository', 1808,
which contain the tune "The Unfortunate Rake", and is tha source of the

Bruce,

Is this online?  I don't see it in the American Memory Collection choices.


-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
Boycott South Carolina!
http://www.naacp.org/communications/press_releases/SCEconomic2.asp
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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-24 Thread Bruce Olson

Abby Sale wrote:
 
 On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:00:41 -0500, Bruce Olson wrote:
 
 The Library of Congress has 'Crosby's Irish Musical Repository', 1808,
 which contain the tune "The Unfortunate Rake", and is tha source of the
 
 Bruce,
 
 Is this online?  I don't see it in the American Memory Collection choices.
 
 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
 Boycott South Carolina!
 http://www.naacp.org/communications/press_releases/SCEconomic2.asp
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Not that I know of.

Bruce O.
 
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a
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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-23 Thread Nigel Gatherer

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Does anyone know an early printing of this melody?

The melody was printed in O'Neill's Music of Ireland (1903), and Joyce's
Ancient Irish Music (1873). Joyce died about 1914, so even in the remote
chance that he composed the tune (he didn't), it would still be out of
copyright.

-- 
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland

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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-23 Thread David Kilpatrick

John Erdman wrote:
 
 That tune is known in America as "the Streets of Laredo". Someone here claims
 copyright to those words and the familiar melody (also used for the Bard of
 Armagh) and that someone will not allow me permission to use it if I sell the
 book outside of the U.S., which as a book for the CLARSACH I most certainly
 want to do! (All the other tunes in the book are public domain.)
 
 Cynthia -


I have my mother's old banjo tutor of Cowboy Songs from around 1930 and it's got the
Streets of Laredo in there, definitely with a copyright on it, not bothered to check 
whose
as the book is buried in a music stool somewhere. However you will not be playing it in
the same key and no doubt a couple of notes will be fractionally different in duration,
and it's based on an earlier traditional tune, so there is little risk unless you CALL
your tune anything associated with a copyright version.  David
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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-23 Thread John Erdman

Cynthia -
Here's what I found in my library.

  I have two books with the tune and words in them. The one with the 
most info is "Best Loved American Folk Songs" by Alan and John Lomax 
published in 1947.  The other is a Alan Lomax book published in 1960, 
"Folk Songs of North America"

Here's a transcript of the text from the first book describing "The 
Streets of Laredo".

quote
After "The Chisholm Trail" the most popular Western ballad is 
the story of the young cowboy who rode the familiar road from rum to 
ruin. The hundred-odd examples of this ballad in my collection have 
located the scene of the cowbow's death in almost as many Western 
towns. As a matter of fact , the young man died in the British Isles, 
not of gunshot wounds, but of syphilis. Whereupon all the gay ladies 
of the town, grateful for his generousity to them, followed his 
coffin to the cemetery. We have one Irish version sung in Cork about 
the year 1790 which identifies the young man as a soldier and has him 
take his last journey with the ruffle of military drums:

My jewel, my joy, don't trouble me with the drums,
Sound the dead march as my corpse goes along;
And over my body throw handfuls of laurel,
And let them all know that I'm going to my rest.

An early English version discovers the "unfortunate lad down 
by Lock Hospital, wrapped in flannel, so hard was his fate." Here the 
balladeer goes into medical details:

Had she but told me when she disordered me,
Had she but told me of it in time,
I might have got salts and pills of white mercury,
But now I'm cut down in the height of my Prime.

Apparently the grim message of thios ballad suited your 
moralizing folk-singer so well that a warning to young ladies was 
soon composed. This variant, current in England, is also known to 
United States singers and begins, in one form:

One morning, one morning, one morning in May,
I spied a young lady all clad in white linen,
All clad in white linen and as cold as the clay.

When I was a young girl, I used to see pleasure,
When I was a young girl, I used to drink ale,
Right out of the ale-house, and into the jail-house,
Out of the barroom and down to my grave.

Go send for the preacher to come and pray for me,
Go send for the doctor to heal up my wounds,
My poor head is aching, my sad heart is breaking,
My body's salivated and Hell is my doom.
end quote

The text then goes on to show how the words ultimately morphed into 
the words for the St James Infirmary Blues.

The Alan Lomax version in the later book (1960), the tune is entitled 
"The Dying Cowboy" and references the 1910 Lomax collection "Cowboy 
Songs".  The tune  is slightly different and in a differnt key than 
the one in the 1947 book. It also suggests that the tune is   known 
as "One Morning in May" in non-cowboy circles.



Cynthia, if you are interested in photocopies of these pages please 
contact me off-list with your mailing address.

It's so obvious that this tune and words are part of the folk 
tradition, it's quite astounding (and absurd) to me that someone 
would have the chutzpah to claim these tunes and words.  Further the 
cost to someone to "enforce" such a ridiculous claim  against what 
will undoubtably be a "modest" publication wouldn't be worth it.

I'm certainly not an expert in these matters but I believe that the 
tune in a setting you made specifically for the clairsach would be 
copyrightable **by you**.  Also if you need to include words, to use 
whatever verson you'd like to but to footnote and reference the 
source as in a scholarly journal.

Hope this is useful,

John






That tune is known in America as "the Streets of Laredo". Someone here claims
copyright to those words and the familiar melody (also used for the Bard of
Armagh) and that someone will not allow me permission to use it if I sell the
book outside of the U.S., which as a book for the CLARSACH I most certainly
want to do! (All the other tunes in the book are public domain.)

The ancestor of this song is "The Unfortunate Rake". I have been trying to
find a citation for that song, and for the melody. My research indicates that
it was published as a broadside in London in 1790, but I can't find any copy
of that.

Does anyone know an early printing of this melody? Early words, that pre-date
the American ones? Any ideas or leads will be VERY welcome. I want to go to
press so I can get this project off my desk, and move on to the next one!
-- 
90 Trefethen Ave
Peaks Island, ME  04108
Tel  207-766-5797
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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-23 Thread John Chambers

David writes:
| I have my mother's old banjo tutor of Cowboy Songs from around 1930 and it's got the
| Streets of Laredo in there, definitely with a copyright on it, not bothered to check 
|whose
| as the book is buried in a music stool somewhere. However you will not be playing it 
|in
| the same key and no doubt a couple of notes will be fractionally different in 
|duration,
| and it's based on an earlier traditional tune, so there is little risk unless you 
|CALL
| your tune anything associated with a copyright version.

Indeed.  Maybe the best idea is to call it "The Bard of  Omagh",  and
note  in  the  text  that  it's  a  variant  of the earlier tune "The
Unfortunate Rake" and the  later  American  ballad  "The  Streets  of
Laredo".   This  will  make it obvious to anyone claiming a copyright
that they are making a fraudulent claim on a much earlier tune.

Chances are if you present them with  the  names  and  dates  of  the
earlier  publications,  they'll realize that they can't get away with
it, and you'll never hear from them again.

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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-23 Thread Clarsaich

In a message dated 2/23/01 1:21:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Indeed.  Maybe the best idea is to call it "The Bard of  Omagh",  and
 note  in  the  text  that  it's  a  variant  of the earlier tune "The
 Unfortunate Rake" and the  later  American  ballad  "The  Streets  of
 Laredo".  

I certainly could do this, and that's my line of reasoning for using the 
"Unfortunate Rake". But, I've got the same problem with "The Bard" as I do 
with "The Rake": finding a copy of it with a pre-1927 date! I have a book 
here that claims the Bard was written in 1801 by Thomas Campbell, but I need 
some kind of "proof" of that. Even if it's a facsimile re-print of an old 
book containing that title, melody, and I'll take whatever lyrics I can find 
at this point!

I had great success at the Library of Congress with some of the tunes I chose 
to use. I actually held in my hands broadsides from circa 1800 for some of 
them. For those, no one had better dare to claim I violated copyright! 

It was interesting to see how the words for some of these tunes have changed 
over the last two centuries. I used the older lyrics, for very obvious 
reasons!

So, anyway: if I get stuck for the Rake, does anyone know where I can find an 
old copy of "The Bard of Armagh"?

--Cynthia Cathcart
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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-23 Thread John Chambers

| ... But, I've got the same problem with "The Bard" as I do
| with "The Rake": finding a copy of it with a pre-1927 date! I have a book
| here that claims the Bard was written in 1801 by Thomas Campbell, but I need
| some kind of "proof" of that. Even if it's a facsimile re-print of an old
| book containing that title, melody, and I'll take whatever lyrics I can find
| at this point!

It's in O'Neill's "Music of Ireland", published in 1903.  It's tune 363.
The tune is slightly different from Streets of Laredo, but it's obviously
the same tune.

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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-23 Thread Bruce Olson

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 In a message dated 2/23/01 1:21:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Indeed.  Maybe the best idea is to call it "The Bard of  Omagh",  and
  note  in  the  text  that  it's  a  variant  of the earlier tune "The
  Unfortunate Rake" and the  later  American  ballad  "The  Streets  of
  Laredo".  
 
 I certainly could do this, and that's my line of reasoning for using the
 "Unfortunate Rake". But, I've got the same problem with "The Bard" as I do
 with "The Rake": finding a copy of it with a pre-1927 date! I have a book
 here that claims the Bard was written in 1801 by Thomas Campbell, but I need
 some kind of "proof" of that. Even if it's a facsimile re-print of an old
 book containing that title, melody, and I'll take whatever lyrics I can find
 at this point!
 
 I had great success at the Library of Congress with some of the tunes I chose
 to use. I actually held in my hands broadsides from circa 1800 for some of
 them. For those, no one had better dare to claim I violated copyright!
 
 It was interesting to see how the words for some of these tunes have changed
 over the last two centuries. I used the older lyrics, for very obvious
 reasons!
 
 So, anyway: if I get stuck for the Rake, does anyone know where I can find an
 old copy of "The Bard of Armagh"?
 
 --Cynthia Cathcart
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The Library of Congress has 'Crosby's Irish Musical Repository', 1808,
which contain the tune "The Unfortunate Rake", and is tha source of the
ABC of the tune as T060 in file T1.HTM on my website. Smollet Holden
gave a version with slightly different timing about 2 years earlier.
Both can be found in 'Sources of Irish Music', 1998.

No early 19th century copy of the ballad is known, and the earliest
extant version seems to be "The Buck's Elegy" reprinted from the Madden
collection in Holloway and Black's 'Later English Broadside Ballads.'
 
Bruce Olson   
-- 
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a
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[scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-22 Thread Clarsaich

I need some help. After spending many hours in the library and countless more 
searching the internet, I've decided to ask my friends for help.

I have finished writing a book of "familiar melodies" for beginning players 
of the clarsach. I have one tune that is giving me trouble, and I am just 
about ready to cut it from the book, but I really don't want to. 

That tune is known in America as "the Streets of Laredo". Someone here claims 
copyright to those words and the familiar melody (also used for the Bard of 
Armagh) and that someone will not allow me permission to use it if I sell the 
book outside of the U.S., which as a book for the CLARSACH I most certainly 
want to do! (All the other tunes in the book are public domain.)

The ancestor of this song is "The Unfortunate Rake". I have been trying to 
find a citation for that song, and for the melody. My research indicates that 
it was published as a broadside in London in 1790, but I can't find any copy 
of that.

Does anyone know an early printing of this melody? Early words, that pre-date 
the American ones? Any ideas or leads will be VERY welcome. I want to go to 
press so I can get this project off my desk, and move on to the next one!

Thank you, even if all you can do for me is read this far!

--Cynthia Cathcart
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Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake

2001-02-22 Thread John Erdman

That tune is known in America as "the Streets of Laredo". Someone here claims
copyright to those words and the familiar melody (also used for the Bard of
Armagh) and that someone will not allow me permission to use it if I sell the
book outside of the U.S., which as a book for the CLARSACH I most certainly
want to do! (All the other tunes in the book are public domain.)

Cynthia -
I'm really really surprised that someone actually claims this 
song..  And that the claim would deter you.  I seem to recall that I 
first came across the tune and words for the Streets of Laredo" in an 
old John/Allan Lomax book and it had to have been collected some time 
before that.  I didn't think there'd be any tunes in those 
collections that would be copyrightable.   After all, they were 
pirated by the Lomaxes.   :-)
  I'll have to go dig in my books in storage to find what I'm remembering.

Maybe there's even a reference to the Unfortunate Rake. I'll look tomorrow.

John
-- 
90 Trefethen Ave
Peaks Island, ME  04108
Tel  207-766-5797
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