Re: [silk] A considered opinion
Thanks for the nod, Udhay. I've thought of a more succinct version: "I don't know enough about that to have an opinion." I don't think that having an opinion matters if it doesn't motivate us to act. Armchair quarterbacks seldom change the score. Here are some considered thoughts from someone who does have the background to have an opinion on the mess at MIT (and elsewhere in tech): http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2019/09/15/facing-the-great-reckoning-head-on.html --hmm Udhay Shankar N wrote on 9/15/19 5:07 AM September 15, 2019: I saw this line from silklister Heather Madrone on another list, and it got me thinking (shared with Heather's permission): I have no opinion on Ito and MIT and the Media Lab. I'm not interested in doing the work to develop a considered view of that situation. Setting aside the specifics of the Media Lab clusterfuck, this is a remarkably concise way of conveying that 1) It takes *work* to build enough perspective to have an informed opinion about something; 2) Having an informed opinion is a good thing; and 3) Not having an opinion is OK if one can't have an informed opinion. Thoughts? Udhay
Re: [silk] A considered opinion
Joi has resigned. I consider that the end of the story as far as I am concerned. The counterpoints being put forward are many, such as about just how many US universities were endowed by 19th century robber barons, or European ones by kings and nobles whose behaviour was more rather than less reprehensible. RMS has a rather stranger defense of Epstein that I sure hope he was misquoted on. None of those has any bearing on Joi’s decision to accept or not accept Epstein’s “anonymous” donations or Negroponte saying the donations must be accepted. Any more than someone appealing a fine for running a stop light has relevance to the police fining or not fining a car with expired plates that just drove past. He’s accepted responsibility for that decision and resigned. And future university administrators will either get the jitters about not taking any money that people might object to, or be much more careful in how thoroughly they anonymise such donations. --srs On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:57 AM +0530, wrote: On 2019-09-15 17:03, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > I agree here. Not having an opinion is just how badness continues to > flourish. > For example the rise of the Nazis was largely facilitated by the large > number of people who just didn’t have any opinion on atrocities as > long as they had a strong government and well functioning > infrastructure. > > > > --srs I agree that "not having an opinion" on some issues — those that involve human actions that affect many people in significant ways (including for example, their being kidnapped, tortured, and murdered) (and for which, furthermore, facts are not difficult to obtain by people who look for them in good faith)(and doubly furthermore for people whose opinions and actions on said issues have actual consequences) — for example Nazism — and in particular, the position of not having an opinion on it *when taken by citizens of 1930's and 1940's Germany* (and the USA today) — is a cowardly cop-out and abrogation of a moral responsibility. But in my opinion that's not the same thing as not having an opinion on how much culpability Joi Ito had in the matter of Jeffrey Epstein & MIT's Media Lab. jrs
Re: [silk] A considered opinion
On 2019-09-15 17:03, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: I agree here. Not having an opinion is just how badness continues to flourish. For example the rise of the Nazis was largely facilitated by the large number of people who just didn’t have any opinion on atrocities as long as they had a strong government and well functioning infrastructure. --srs I agree that "not having an opinion" on some issues — those that involve human actions that affect many people in significant ways (including for example, their being kidnapped, tortured, and murdered) (and for which, furthermore, facts are not difficult to obtain by people who look for them in good faith)(and doubly furthermore for people whose opinions and actions on said issues have actual consequences) — for example Nazism — and in particular, the position of not having an opinion on it *when taken by citizens of 1930's and 1940's Germany* (and the USA today) — is a cowardly cop-out and abrogation of a moral responsibility. But in my opinion that's not the same thing as not having an opinion on how much culpability Joi Ito had in the matter of Jeffrey Epstein & MIT's Media Lab. jrs
Re: [silk] A considered opinion
I agree here. Not having an opinion is just how badness continues to flourish. For example the rise of the Nazis was largely facilitated by the large number of people who just didn’t have any opinion on atrocities as long as they had a strong government and well functioning infrastructure. --srs On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:15 PM +0530, "Nishant Shah" wrote: My only 2 cents to that would be to consider the following: 1. Not having an opinion about something that is a crisis in your 'field' is a state of privilege. If you are removed from it, are not directly affected by it, and do not have to take that opinion, it is fine, but then for those who do get embroiled in this case, let them also have their opinions. 2. Not having an opinion does not mean neutrality. It means that you will not state your opinion, but it is good to make sure it doesn't become weaponized against the people who are affected by these situations. Not having an opinion doesn't mean continued work and relationships with those who have been accused of abuse. It does not mean absolution from responsibility. 3. Having an informed opinion is not the same thing as having an informed stand-point. In unfolding cases like these, it is feasible to have a differed understanding, and not engaging in instant meaning making and opining, but sometimes inaction is betrayal, and even in ill-informed situations, especially if you hold influential positions, your standpoint has to be clear, even if you have no comments on the incident at hand. Ok, more than 2 cents, but I have seen this 'no opinion' used as a defense by enablers (not directly pointing fingers at anybody on the list or thread) and has the danger of silencing those who dare to protest and call out. Warmly, Nishant On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 2:07 PM Udhay Shankar N wrote: > I saw this line from silklister Heather Madrone on another list, and it got > me thinking (shared with Heather's permission): > > > I have no opinion on Ito and MIT and the Media Lab. I'm not > > interested in doing the work to develop a considered view of that > situation. > > Setting aside the specifics of the Media Lab clusterfuck, this is a > remarkably concise way of conveying that > > 1) It takes *work* to build enough perspective to have an informed opinion > about something; > 2) Having an informed opinion is a good thing; and > 3) Not having an opinion is OK if one can't have an informed opinion. > > Thoughts? > > Udhay > > -- > > ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com)) > -- Dr. Nishant Shah (Ph.D.) Vice-President Research, ArtEZ University of the Arts, The Netherlands. Visiting Professor, Leuphana University, Germany. https://nishantshah.online
Re: [silk] A considered opinion
My only 2 cents to that would be to consider the following: 1. Not having an opinion about something that is a crisis in your 'field' is a state of privilege. If you are removed from it, are not directly affected by it, and do not have to take that opinion, it is fine, but then for those who do get embroiled in this case, let them also have their opinions. 2. Not having an opinion does not mean neutrality. It means that you will not state your opinion, but it is good to make sure it doesn't become weaponized against the people who are affected by these situations. Not having an opinion doesn't mean continued work and relationships with those who have been accused of abuse. It does not mean absolution from responsibility. 3. Having an informed opinion is not the same thing as having an informed stand-point. In unfolding cases like these, it is feasible to have a differed understanding, and not engaging in instant meaning making and opining, but sometimes inaction is betrayal, and even in ill-informed situations, especially if you hold influential positions, your standpoint has to be clear, even if you have no comments on the incident at hand. Ok, more than 2 cents, but I have seen this 'no opinion' used as a defense by enablers (not directly pointing fingers at anybody on the list or thread) and has the danger of silencing those who dare to protest and call out. Warmly, Nishant On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 2:07 PM Udhay Shankar N wrote: > I saw this line from silklister Heather Madrone on another list, and it got > me thinking (shared with Heather's permission): > > > I have no opinion on Ito and MIT and the Media Lab. I'm not > > interested in doing the work to develop a considered view of that > situation. > > Setting aside the specifics of the Media Lab clusterfuck, this is a > remarkably concise way of conveying that > > 1) It takes *work* to build enough perspective to have an informed opinion > about something; > 2) Having an informed opinion is a good thing; and > 3) Not having an opinion is OK if one can't have an informed opinion. > > Thoughts? > > Udhay > > -- > > ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com)) > -- Dr. Nishant Shah (Ph.D.) Vice-President Research, ArtEZ University of the Arts, The Netherlands. Visiting Professor, Leuphana University, Germany. https://nishantshah.online
Re: [silk] A considered opinion
add 4. if you haven’t done the work to be informed, don’t post. (which i know is implicit for you, udhay). these are all good conservation of effort (and sanity) rules. as a side comment on “informed” opinion, i am quite amazed how Many Other People have strongly held opinions about taboo subjects such as • what is a “child”, • what is “assault”, • what is a “pedophile”, • whether sex work is or should be legal, • what one’s due diligence responsibilities MUST be when invited to dinner or given a free plane ride by an alleged billionaire who is trying to fund one's research, • whether a Bad Person can ever do good things (before or after they are known to be Bad) … all of which opinions are often applied (with heat) independent of any of the evidence about actual events that occurred and devaluing personal knowledge (even gathered over decades) of various actors in the drama ... and anyone trying to bring in facts or evidence is accused of collaborating, enabling, whitewashing or normalizing perverse behavior (of being a revisionist of history which has not even been written yet.) (udhay, if you would you like me to spout no further on this subject, just say so.) On Sep 15, 2019, 5:08 AM -0700, Udhay Shankar N , wrote: > I saw this line from silklister Heather Madrone on another list, and it got > me thinking (shared with Heather's permission): > > > I have no opinion on Ito and MIT and the Media Lab. I'm not > > interested in doing the work to develop a considered view of that > situation. > > Setting aside the specifics of the Media Lab clusterfuck, this is a > remarkably concise way of conveying that > > 1) It takes *work* to build enough perspective to have an informed opinion > about something; > 2) Having an informed opinion is a good thing; and > 3) Not having an opinion is OK if one can't have an informed opinion. > > Thoughts? > > Udhay > > -- > > ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] A considered opinion
Agree. I call it my DKDC (don't know, don't care) zone. There is so much happening around you, it is impossible to keep up. Because keeping up requires energy, time and attention. And often there is a shortage of those. -- Vinayak On Sun, 15 Sep, 2019, 17:46 Sidin Vadukut, wrote: > On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 1:07 PM Udhay Shankar N wrote: > > > I saw this line from silklister Heather Madrone on another list, and it > got > > me thinking (shared with Heather's permission): > > > > > I have no opinion on Ito and MIT and the Media Lab. I'm not > > > interested in doing the work to develop a considered view of that > > situation. > > > > Setting aside the specifics of the Media Lab clusterfuck, this is a > > remarkably concise way of conveying that > > > > 1) It takes *work* to build enough perspective to have an informed > opinion > > about something; > > 2) Having an informed opinion is a good thing; and > > 3) Not having an opinion is OK if one can't have an informed opinion. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Udhay > > > > -- > > > > ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com)) > > > > I am in very strong agreement. I find it very easy to get sucked into easy > scholarship -> say something stupid online -> refuse to acknowledge -> > grind your heels in -> and loop. > > Best to care about three things deeply than ten things shallowly. If that > makes sense. > > -- > > > *Sidin Sunny Vadukut* > Mobile: +44 757 244 1292 / +91 730 611 6314 > Blog: http://www.whatay.com > @sidin >
Re: [silk] A considered opinion
On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 1:07 PM Udhay Shankar N wrote: > I saw this line from silklister Heather Madrone on another list, and it got > me thinking (shared with Heather's permission): > > > I have no opinion on Ito and MIT and the Media Lab. I'm not > > interested in doing the work to develop a considered view of that > situation. > > Setting aside the specifics of the Media Lab clusterfuck, this is a > remarkably concise way of conveying that > > 1) It takes *work* to build enough perspective to have an informed opinion > about something; > 2) Having an informed opinion is a good thing; and > 3) Not having an opinion is OK if one can't have an informed opinion. > > Thoughts? > > Udhay > > -- > > ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com)) > I am in very strong agreement. I find it very easy to get sucked into easy scholarship -> say something stupid online -> refuse to acknowledge -> grind your heels in -> and loop. Best to care about three things deeply than ten things shallowly. If that makes sense. -- *Sidin Sunny Vadukut* Mobile: +44 757 244 1292 / +91 730 611 6314 Blog: http://www.whatay.com @sidin
Re: [silk] A considered opinion
On 2019-09-15 07:07, Udhay Shankar N wrote: I saw this line from silklister Heather Madrone on another list, and it got me thinking (shared with Heather's permission): I have no opinion on Ito and MIT and the Media Lab. I'm not interested in doing the work to develop a considered view of that situation. Setting aside the specifics of the Media Lab clusterfuck, this is a remarkably concise way of conveying that 1) It takes *work* to build enough perspective to have an informed opinion about something; 2) Having an informed opinion is a good thing; and 3) Not having an opinion is OK if one can't have an informed opinion. Thoughts? Udhay I like your elaboration of Heather's statement, and I agree with her (and you). jrs P.S. I also have been known to use Scarlet O'Hara's dodge: "I'm not going to worry about that today. I'm going to worry about that tomorrow."
[silk] A considered opinion
I saw this line from silklister Heather Madrone on another list, and it got me thinking (shared with Heather's permission): > I have no opinion on Ito and MIT and the Media Lab. I'm not > interested in doing the work to develop a considered view of that situation. Setting aside the specifics of the Media Lab clusterfuck, this is a remarkably concise way of conveying that 1) It takes *work* to build enough perspective to have an informed opinion about something; 2) Having an informed opinion is a good thing; and 3) Not having an opinion is OK if one can't have an informed opinion. Thoughts? Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
