Re: [Simh] KS10 and the DMR
Hi, I am curious where you found a 7.02 Monitor. I would be interested in a copy since this is the last one that supports the KI10. Also 7.01 would be nice too. I have 6.03 and 5.03 and am working on getting 4.5, 3.19 and 1.4 running. However all from 5.03 back only support the KA10. But I have a simh version of the KA10 however Dectapes are not written and RC10 has some strange problem. It currently supports: RP10 (Up to 4 channels of 8). MTA/MTB10 (up to 8 drives). LP,PTP,PTR. 16 lines on a DC10. RC10 but I can't seem to install a system on the drive. I need to write DK10 and TD10 controllers. And I want to add RH10 and KI10 support. Thanks Rich The Ks10 Dmr case hos now been solved; the Dmr can be used in Tops10 V7.02 to 7.05 with Decnet and Anf, but some minor issues have still to be resolved. The trace can be followed at the Simh issue list #100: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/100 This trace will be closed but there is a follow-up trace #136: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/136 where the last software problems will be ironed out. Best regards, R. Voorhorst P.S. @Mark P: I have tried over the last days to respond/update your emails but your mailbox at info.. doesn't work (yet) and it's redirection doesn't either. Please respond. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- == Richard Cornwell sky...@sky-visions.com http://sky-visions.com == ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
On Fri, 2 May 2014, paul_kon...@dell.com wrote: On May 1, 2014, at 9:36 PM, Cory Smelosky b...@gewt.net wrote: On Thu, 1 May 2014, Cory Smelosky wrote: Looks like there's no DMC on the PDP-10, no DMC OR KDP on the MicroVAX, and no KDP on the VAX780. However, the PDP-11 has the DUP. Looks like I can use that as the go-between. Wonderinf if this is an RSTS/E bug...or a simh bug. Device XK0: does not interrupt - device disabled. Probably a SIMH limitation. It’s complaining about the KMC11. RSTS supports those only for use with the RJ2780 emulator; it doesn’t use them with DECnet. The message comes from the hardware scan code, where it looks around the bus looking for devices and makes them interrupt to learn what vector each uses. For the KMC11, it does that by loading a short program into it. That only works if the KMC emulation knows how to emulate a KMC well enough to run that program. If it emulates a KMC only as a KMC/DUP pair that speaks DDCMP, this won’t work. A. If you want a RSTS system to connect to your Phase III machine, you’ll want to use a DMC (or DMR/DMP/DMV, they are all roughly interchangeable). In a sufficiently recent SIMH, the DMC emulation speaks real DDCMP so it should talk with a software DDCMP implementation, such as one that uses a DUP. Or, since it doesn’t know sync from async, it will probably talk to a software DDCMP implementation that uses a terminal interface. That I can do. Once I figure out the TOPS-20 DECnet configuration. ;) paul -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
On Friday, May 02, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote: On May 1, 2014, at 9:36 PM, Cory Smelosky b...@gewt.net wrote: On Thu, 1 May 2014, Cory Smelosky wrote: Looks like there's no DMC on the PDP-10, no DMC OR KDP on the MicroVAX, and no KDP on the VAX780. However, the PDP-11 has the DUP. Looks like I can use that as the go- between. Wonderinf if this is an RSTS/E bug...or a simh bug. Device XK0: does not interrupt - device disabled. Probably a SIMH limitation. It’s complaining about the KMC11. This is true. RSTS supports those only for use with the RJ2780 emulator; it doesn’t use them with DECnet. The message comes from the hardware scan code, where it looks around the bus looking for devices and makes them interrupt to learn what vector each uses. For the KMC11, it does that by loading a short program into it. That only works if the KMC emulation knows how to emulate a KMC well enough to run that program. If it emulates a KMC only as a KMC/DUP pair that speaks DDCMP, this won’t work. The KMC emulation could be extended to support this command/program, but since the only implementation of KMC functionality is as a KDP and the KDP wasn't supported on the OS (RSTS) which is observing the lacking of interrupting, then the status quo is probably best. If you want a RSTS system to connect to your Phase III machine, you’ll want to use a DMC (or DMR/DMP/DMV, they are all roughly interchangeable). In a sufficiently recent SIMH, the DMC emulation speaks real DDCMP so it should talk with a software DDCMP implementation, such as one that uses a DUP. The DUP has only been tested talking to the KDP and DMC/DMR on RSX. If someone wants to try on RSTS I'd like to know if any issues are found. Or, since it doesn’t know sync from async, it will probably talk to a software DDCMP implementation that uses a terminal interface. I believe that it should also talk to an OS based DDCMP implementation which uses Async ports. If someone is willing to test this, I'll work on any kinks which may be found which might inhibit this. - Mark ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
Hi guys, what you propose will not work. I already connected a Tops20 4.1 with a phase-III Tops10 Pdp10 and even that will not work. Tops20-4.1 to a clone does as well as a Pdp10 phase-III to a clone does. Tim Litt mentioned a while ago that Tops20 4.1 was rather more of a phase-II then a III; I call it phase-II+ as it appears to have some routing functionality. So it will certainly not work with Rsts-E 10.1L and Rsx11MP46 as all these are phase-IV. Further there is no difference between the functioning of a Rsts-E 10.1 and a Rsx11MP46 Pdp11 with respect to Dup/Dmc/Ethernet if Rsts-E will support the Dup/Dmc lines and will route as it is primarily an Ethernet system. To make these things work the following has to be done: 1. Upgrade Tops20-4.1 Decnet to real phase-III, it then will link to a Pdp10 Tops10 7.02 based phase-III router. 2. Repair/upgrade the Tops10 7.02 router code so that it will talk to a phase-IV node. Both things will require Tops monitor programming; the Tops10 7.02 case will probably be the most simple of the two. On the physical plane nothing is wrong as the packets do flow; only the DDCMP communication process will not startup; it hangs around in the startup phase. Best regards Reindert -Original Message- From: simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 19:31 To: hec...@update.uu.se Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet On Fri, 2 May 2014, paul_kon...@dell.com wrote: On May 2, 2014, at 12:59 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm m...@infocomm.com wrote: On Friday, May 02, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote: ...If you want a RSTS system to connect to your Phase III machine, you'll want to use a DMC (or DMR/DMP/DMV, they are all roughly interchangeable). In a sufficiently recent SIMH, the DMC emulation speaks real DDCMP so it should talk with a software DDCMP implementation, such as one that uses a DUP. The DUP has only been tested talking to the KDP and DMC/DMR on RSX. If someone wants to try on RSTS I'd like to know if any issues are found. I'll see what I can do. Since a DMC/DMR does DDCMP itself, it shouldn't matter what OS is talking to it; if you get success with DECnet/RSX, I would expect it to work with DECnet/E as well. Or, since it doesn't know sync from async, it will probably talk to a software DDCMP implementation that uses a terminal interface. I believe that it should also talk to an OS based DDCMP implementation which uses Async ports. If someone is willing to test this, I'll work on any kinks which may be found which might inhibit this. I'm trying to make some progress on that (using RSTS V10.1). Let me know. I'm interested in using RSTS/E to link TOPS-20/KS. paul -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
Hi. On 2014-05-02 20:02, s...@swabhawat.com wrote: Hi guys, what you propose will not work. I already connected a Tops20 4.1 with a phase-III Tops10 Pdp10 and even that will not work. Tops20-4.1 to a clone does as well as a Pdp10 phase-III to a clone does. Tim Litt mentioned a while ago that Tops20 4.1 was rather more of a phase-II then a III; I call it phase-II+ as it appears to have some routing functionality. So it will certainly not work with Rsts-E 10.1L and Rsx11MP46 as all these are phase-IV. Well, if it truly is Phase II, then yeah, I would not expect it to work. But I was pretty sure it was Phase III, in which case it should work. Further there is no difference between the functioning of a Rsts-E 10.1 and a Rsx11MP46 Pdp11 with respect to Dup/Dmc/Ethernet if Rsts-E will support the Dup/Dmc lines and will route as it is primarily an Ethernet system. Well, therein lies the problem. RSTS/E simply did not support a bunch of thing that RSX did support. But yes, assuming the OS support a device, it should work equally well under RSTS/E and RSX. To make these things work the following has to be done: 1. Upgrade Tops20-4.1 Decnet to real phase-III, it then will link to a Pdp10 Tops10 7.02 based phase-III router. 2. Repair/upgrade the Tops10 7.02 router code so that it will talk to a phase-IV node. What is wrong with the Tops-10 DECnet phase III code if it don't interoperate with a phase IV node? Both things will require Tops monitor programming; the Tops10 7.02 case will probably be the most simple of the two. On the physical plane nothing is wrong as the packets do flow; only the DDCMP communication process will not startup; it hangs around in the startup phase. That's sad. But DDCMP should not be too hard to get working. And RSX support DDCMP both on synchronous and asynchronous serial lines. And both using devices that implement DDCMP, and software implemented DDCMP. Johnny Best regards Reindert -Original Message- From: simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 19:31 To: hec...@update.uu.se Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet On Fri, 2 May 2014, paul_kon...@dell.com wrote: On May 2, 2014, at 12:59 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm m...@infocomm.com wrote: On Friday, May 02, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote: ...If you want a RSTS system to connect to your Phase III machine, you'll want to use a DMC (or DMR/DMP/DMV, they are all roughly interchangeable). In a sufficiently recent SIMH, the DMC emulation speaks real DDCMP so it should talk with a software DDCMP implementation, such as one that uses a DUP. The DUP has only been tested talking to the KDP and DMC/DMR on RSX. If someone wants to try on RSTS I'd like to know if any issues are found. I'll see what I can do. Since a DMC/DMR does DDCMP itself, it shouldn't matter what OS is talking to it; if you get success with DECnet/RSX, I would expect it to work with DECnet/E as well. Or, since it doesn't know sync from async, it will probably talk to a software DDCMP implementation that uses a terminal interface. I believe that it should also talk to an OS based DDCMP implementation which uses Async ports. If someone is willing to test this, I'll work on any kinks which may be found which might inhibit this. I'm trying to make some progress on that (using RSTS V10.1). Let me know. I'm interested in using RSTS/E to link TOPS-20/KS. paul -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
On 2014-05-03 00:52, Cory Smelosky wrote: On Sat, 3 May 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: Hi. On 2014-05-02 20:02, s...@swabhawat.com wrote: Hi guys, Well, if it truly is Phase II, then yeah, I would not expect it to work. But I was pretty sure it was Phase III, in which case it should work. There's a tape listed as Phase III...is it not Phase III?! That's what I read Reindert message as. I do not know for certain myself. Further there is no difference between the functioning of a Rsts-E 10.1 and a Rsx11MP46 Pdp11 with respect to Dup/Dmc/Ethernet if Rsts-E will support the Dup/Dmc lines and will route as it is primarily an Ethernet system. Well, therein lies the problem. RSTS/E simply did not support a bunch of thing that RSX did support. But yes, assuming the OS support a device, it should work equally well under RSTS/E and RSX. Huh. Did I write something strange? I thought not. To reiterate. DECnet under RSX supports things that is not available under DECnet/E. Unless I remember wrong, DECnet/E do not support asynchronous DDCMP links. DECnet/E also cannot function as an area router. DECnet/E also do not support path splitting. And I do not believe DECnet/E supports all the hardware that DECnet-RSX do. Looking at the SPD, DECnet/E do not have support for the DUP11 for example. Johnny To make these things work the following has to be done: 1.Upgrade Tops20-4.1 Decnet to real phase-III, it then will link to a Pdp10 Tops10 7.02 based phase-III router. 2.Repair/upgrade the Tops10 7.02 router code so that it will talk to a phase-IV node. What is wrong with the Tops-10 DECnet phase III code if it don't interoperate with a phase IV node? Both things will require Tops monitor programming; the Tops10 7.02 case will probably be the most simple of the two. On the physical plane nothing is wrong as the packets do flow; only the DDCMP communication process will not startup; it hangs around in the startup phase. That's sad. But DDCMP should not be too hard to get working. And RSX support DDCMP both on synchronous and asynchronous serial lines. And both using devices that implement DDCMP, and software implemented DDCMP. Johnny Best regards Reindert -Original Message- From: simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 19:31 To: hec...@update.uu.se Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet On Fri, 2 May 2014, paul_kon...@dell.com wrote: On May 2, 2014, at 12:59 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm m...@infocomm.com wrote: On Friday, May 02, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote: ...If you want a RSTS system to connect to your Phase III machine, you'll want to use a DMC (or DMR/DMP/DMV, they are all roughly interchangeable). In a sufficiently recent SIMH, the DMC emulation speaks real DDCMP so it should talk with a software DDCMP implementation, such as one that uses a DUP. The DUP has only been tested talking to the KDP and DMC/DMR on RSX. If someone wants to try on RSTS I'd like to know if any issues are found. I'll see what I can do. Since a DMC/DMR does DDCMP itself, it shouldn't matter what OS is talking to it; if you get success with DECnet/RSX, I would expect it to work with DECnet/E as well. Or, since it doesn't know sync from async, it will probably talk to a software DDCMP implementation that uses a terminal interface. I believe that it should also talk to an OS based DDCMP implementation which uses Async ports. If someone is willing to test this, I'll work on any kinks which may be found which might inhibit this. I'm trying to make some progress on that (using RSTS V10.1). Let me know. I'm interested in using RSTS/E to link TOPS-20/KS. paul -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
From: s...@swabhawat.com Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 20:02:12 +0200 Tim Litt mentioned a while ago that Tops20 4.1 was rather more of a phase-II then a III; I call it phase-II+ as it appears to have some routing functionality. I started at DEC around October of 1981, and at that time Phase II was the rule, and everything supported poor man's routing; You specified HOP1::HOP2::HOP3. and the intermediate hops were made by connecting to a pass thruough listener on an adjacent node. TOPS-20 5.1 with Phase III made it onto the layered products machine (KL2137) not long after I arrived. My recall is that the KL was never a router until Phase IV. A DN20 was loaded with software ISTR everyone loved to hate (MCB?) that did Phase III routing, so the KL may have been just a Phase II-ish endnode that knew about Phase III addressing, and I wouldn't expect much more of the KS, so multiple DECnet circuits on a KS may just not make much sense. But I was just a lowly FORTRAN team member Phil ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet
Actually the situation is somewhat more complex but is difficult to see exactly as the OPR on the Pdp10 7.02 does not function, so NCP cannot be used to define nodes and give status. The phase-III thinks the following: [DECnet network: local node SWBW08, 2 reachable nodes] NameNumber LineCostHopsL.Links Delay SWBW08 (58)local 0 0 (44)DMR-1-0 102331 The Tops20 4.1 thinks: Local DECNET node: SWBX05 Accessible DECNET nodes are: SWBX04 SWBX05 and: Status as of 3-May-2014 02:07:01 Line ID State Adjacent Node KDP_0_0 On SWBX04 KDP_0_1 On Function completed successfully Node 44 is the Swbx04 with is connected to the phase III So the phase-III thinks the Tops20 node is up, however the Tops20 node thinks otherwise. So somewhat more is functioning than directly meets the eye! Regards, Reindert -Original Message- From: simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 00:52 Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet On Sat, 3 May 2014, Johnny Billquist wrote: Hi. On 2014-05-02 20:02, s...@swabhawat.com wrote: Hi guys, Well, if it truly is Phase II, then yeah, I would not expect it to work. But I was pretty sure it was Phase III, in which case it should work. There's a tape listed as Phase III...is it not Phase III?! Further there is no difference between the functioning of a Rsts-E 10.1 and a Rsx11MP46 Pdp11 with respect to Dup/Dmc/Ethernet if Rsts-E will support the Dup/Dmc lines and will route as it is primarily an Ethernet system. Well, therein lies the problem. RSTS/E simply did not support a bunch of thing that RSX did support. But yes, assuming the OS support a device, it should work equally well under RSTS/E and RSX. Huh. To make these things work the following has to be done: 1. Upgrade Tops20-4.1 Decnet to real phase-III, it then will link to a Pdp10 Tops10 7.02 based phase-III router. 2. Repair/upgrade the Tops10 7.02 router code so that it will talk to a phase-IV node. What is wrong with the Tops-10 DECnet phase III code if it don't interoperate with a phase IV node? Both things will require Tops monitor programming; the Tops10 7.02 case will probably be the most simple of the two. On the physical plane nothing is wrong as the packets do flow; only the DDCMP communication process will not startup; it hangs around in the startup phase. That's sad. But DDCMP should not be too hard to get working. And RSX support DDCMP both on synchronous and asynchronous serial lines. And both using devices that implement DDCMP, and software implemented DDCMP. Johnny Best regards Reindert -Original Message- From: simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 19:31 To: hec...@update.uu.se Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] [HECnet] TOPS-20 V4.1 DECnet On Fri, 2 May 2014, paul_kon...@dell.com wrote: On May 2, 2014, at 12:59 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm m...@infocomm.com wrote: On Friday, May 02, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote: ...If you want a RSTS system to connect to your Phase III machine, you'll want to use a DMC (or DMR/DMP/DMV, they are all roughly interchangeable). In a sufficiently recent SIMH, the DMC emulation speaks real DDCMP so it should talk with a software DDCMP implementation, such as one that uses a DUP. The DUP has only been tested talking to the KDP and DMC/DMR on RSX. If someone wants to try on RSTS I'd like to know if any issues are found. I'll see what I can do. Since a DMC/DMR does DDCMP itself, it shouldn't matter what OS is talking to it; if you get success with DECnet/RSX, I would expect it to work with DECnet/E as well. Or, since it doesn't know sync from async, it will probably talk to a software DDCMP implementation that uses a terminal interface. I believe that it should also talk to an OS based DDCMP implementation which uses Async ports. If someone is willing to test this, I'll work on any kinks which may be found which might inhibit this. I'm trying to make some progress on that (using RSTS V10.1). Let me know. I'm interested in using RSTS/E to link TOPS-20/KS. paul -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
