Re: [Simh] PDP for beginners
On 2/3/2018 5:11 PM, Zane Healy wrote: On Feb 2, 2018, at 6:25 PM, Pär Moberg wrote: I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine and OS should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as beginner it got. Also, not *nix, it is still alive and therefore boring. Telnet terminals would be awesome but not necessary. //Pär (or Paer) Reading this, I assume you’re looking to use SIMH, and not real hardware, but I’m honestly not 100% sure. I totally understand your UNIX comment. System and OS’s options that come to my mind are the following. PDP-10: TOPS-10 TOPS-20 ITS PDP-11: RSTS/E RSX-11M or M+ TSX-plus There was talk of a Hobbyist License for TSX-Plus, which runs on top of RT-11, but I’m not sure if that happened or not. While it’s not a PDP system, realistically, from a “simple/beginner” standpoint, VAX/VMS would be a good option. There is a great webpage out there on installing it, which means the hardest thing to do is to get registered for a Hobbyist License. Just plain RT-11 would be the easiest to start with on PDP-11 SIMH. That is about as beginner as it gets. Don ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] PDP for beginners
On 04/02/2018, Zane Healy wrote: > >> On Feb 2, 2018, at 6:25 PM, Pär Moberg wrote: >> >> I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine and >> OS should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as >> beginner it got. Also, not *nix, it is still alive and therefore >> boring. >> Telnet terminals would be awesome but not necessary. >> //Pär (or Paer) > > Reading this, I assume you’re looking to use SIMH, and not real hardware, > but I’m honestly not 100% sure. > > I totally understand your UNIX comment. > > System and OS’s options that come to my mind are the following. > > PDP-10: > TOPS-10 > TOPS-20 > ITS > > PDP-11: > RSTS/E > RSX-11M or M+ > TSX-plus > > There was talk of a Hobbyist License for TSX-Plus, which runs on top of > RT-11, but I’m not sure if that happened or not. > > While it’s not a PDP system, realistically, from a “simple/beginner” > standpoint, VAX/VMS would be a good option. There is a great webpage out > there on installing it, which means the hardest thing to do is to get > registered for a Hobbyist License. > http://www.wherry.com/gadgets/retrocomputing/vax-simh.html > > Zane > Yes, I am looking to use simh and a pi zero (w) //Pär Ps. the Chromecast Ethernet/power adapter works with the Zero for both power and Ethernet. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] PDP for beginners
> On Feb 2, 2018, at 6:25 PM, Pär Moberg wrote: > > I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine and > OS should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as > beginner it got. Also, not *nix, it is still alive and therefore > boring. > Telnet terminals would be awesome but not necessary. > //Pär (or Paer) Reading this, I assume you’re looking to use SIMH, and not real hardware, but I’m honestly not 100% sure. I totally understand your UNIX comment. System and OS’s options that come to my mind are the following. PDP-10: TOPS-10 TOPS-20 ITS PDP-11: RSTS/E RSX-11M or M+ TSX-plus There was talk of a Hobbyist License for TSX-Plus, which runs on top of RT-11, but I’m not sure if that happened or not. While it’s not a PDP system, realistically, from a “simple/beginner” standpoint, VAX/VMS would be a good option. There is a great webpage out there on installing it, which means the hardest thing to do is to get registered for a Hobbyist License. http://www.wherry.com/gadgets/retrocomputing/vax-simh.html Zane ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] PDP for beginners
On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 8:12 AM, Pär Moberg wrote: > On 03/02/2018, Bob Eager wrote: > > On Sat, 3 Feb 2018 11:41:38 - > > "Dave Wade" wrote: > > > >> > -Original Message- > >> > From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Pär > >> > Moberg > >> > Sent: 03 February 2018 02:26 > >> > To: simh@trailing-edge.com > >> > Subject: [Simh] PDP for beginners > >> > > >> > I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine > >> > and OS should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as > >> > beginner it got. > >> > >> I think I would start with a PDP-8. NO telnet terminal. Simple OS, > >> lots of software and support. If you want blinken lights try one of > >> these:- > >> > >> http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8-get-one > >> > >> its SIMH with a nice panel > > > > I was going to suggest the same thing. Be warned that there's quite a > > lot of soldering in a PiDP-8 - although not as much as an SBC-6120! (I > > have both) > > Why I want terminal support is so I can use some of my old clunkers as > terminals and access the server from different places in the house. Like others the PDP-8 is definitely were I would start because there is so much around for it, from single user, batch and timesharing systems. Google is you friend of course , a couple of interesting URLs are: Bitsavers's PDP-8 Download <http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/>, PDP-8 Handbooks <http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/handbooks/> , Running_TSS_8_on_the_DEC_PiDP-8_i_and_SIMH.html <https://raymii.org/s/articles/Running_TSS_8_on_the_DEC_PiDP-8_i_and_SIMH.html>, and PDP-8 Net <http://www.pdp8.net/index.shtml,>. [BTW: do not pass go down load the PDP-8 users handbook to start BTW]. There are also a number of different simulators to work with. But there are some caveats that have been discussed (more in the minute). I too have a PiDP-8 and I have it connected to serial ports on the RPi to drive physical connections, but you can use the telnet stuff from simh described elsewhere. That said -- as much as I love Bob Supnik and Mark Pizzolato's wonderful simulation system (particularly if you want to talk to 'real hardware'), if you want to to learn a but more about the PDP-8 itself, I might recommend you also consider Berhbard Baehr's amazing PDP-8/e simulator for the Mac: A PDP-8/E Simulator for the Apple Macintosh <http://www.bernhard-baehr.de/pdp8e/pdp8e.html>. A know a of a couple of excellent CS Departments that use this emulation to teach their students in their intro to architecture class because it gives also exposes some more modern debugging schemes and thus is easier to get a handle on what is going on 'inside.' From the web page: The simulated machine is a PDP-8/E with 4K words of memory and optionally a KM8-E Memory Extension (with up to 32K words of memory) and a KE8-E Extended Arithmetic Element. I/O devices are implemented as plugin modules, and plugins for an ASR 33 Console Teletype, an ASR 33 Auxiliary Teletype, a PC8-E High Speed Paper Tape Reader and Punch, and a RK8-E Disk Cartridge System are available. There is also a KC8-EA Programmer's Console plugin enabling the user to operate the simulator (nearly) like a hardware PDP-8/E, including single step execution on memory cycle level. As other have pointed out OS/8 is out there which like the later DOS/11 and RT-11 which we modeled on it, is basically single user. But there is also TSS/8, ETOS and I think a few other multi- user systems for the 8. But I would recommend starting with DOS/8.I used's OS/8 and TSS/8 'back-in-the-day.' That said, if you do want to mess with these with real hardware such as PiDP-8, there is an interesting feature/bug that is annoying when working with the DOS/8 (or TSS/8) under emulation on a real-terminal (on an XTERM or the like this is less of an issue). It's how the hardware works and how ^S/^Q flow control is implemented in the old systems.The problem is that the way the OS works for terminal output is that spins on a read bit from the UART before it writes the next character. This is done at the lowest level of the OS. In the old days, even at the 'slow' 10cps of an ASR-33, the truth is the simulated hardware will push the next chars out faster than you the human can respond. The ^S you will send back to the emulated system will be seen much, much later that it would have been in the real HW. [The solution is we need to change simh to not set the ready bit until a real time amount of 10 cps for 110 baud or 960 cps for 9600 baud - but this is very
Re: [Simh] PDP for beginners
On 2018-02-03 14:12, Pär Moberg wrote: On 03/02/2018, Bob Eager wrote: On Sat, 3 Feb 2018 11:41:38 - "Dave Wade" wrote: -Original Message- From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Pär Moberg Sent: 03 February 2018 02:26 To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: [Simh] PDP for beginners I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine and OS should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as beginner it got. I think I would start with a PDP-8. NO telnet terminal. Simple OS, lots of software and support. If you want blinken lights try one of these:- http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8-get-one its SIMH with a nice panel I was going to suggest the same thing. Be warned that there's quite a lot of soldering in a PiDP-8 - although not as much as an SBC-6120! (I have both) Why I want terminal support is so I can use some of my old clunkers as terminals and access the server from different places in the house. That would almost imply that you are looking for some multiuser system, where you can have several terminals logged in at the same time? So that would, for most purposes, exclude the PDP-8, and suggest either a PDP-10, PDP-11 or VAX. And not running RT-11 on a PDP-11. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] PDP for beginners
On 02/03/2018 06:41 AM, Dave Wade wrote: -Original Message- From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Pär Moberg Sent: 03 February 2018 02:26 To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: [Simh] PDP for beginners I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine and OS should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as beginner it got. I think I would start with a PDP-8. NO telnet terminal. Simple OS, lots of software and support. If you want blinken lights try one of these:- http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8-get-one its SIMH with a nice panel Also, not *nix, it is still alive and therefore boring. Telnet terminals would be awesome but not necessary. //Pär (or Paer) Dave Here some step by step pics of mine as I built it that will give you an idea of the effort involved. If you've ever built a kit, you'll find this is a piece of cake and a fantastic retro front end for your R-Pi! http://udel.edu/~mm/pidp8i/ Have fun, Mike Markowski ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] PDP for beginners
On 03/02/2018, Bob Eager wrote: > On Sat, 3 Feb 2018 11:41:38 - > "Dave Wade" wrote: > >> > -Original Message- >> > From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Pär >> > Moberg >> > Sent: 03 February 2018 02:26 >> > To: simh@trailing-edge.com >> > Subject: [Simh] PDP for beginners >> > >> > I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine >> > and OS should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as >> > beginner it got. >> >> I think I would start with a PDP-8. NO telnet terminal. Simple OS, >> lots of software and support. If you want blinken lights try one of >> these:- >> >> http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8-get-one >> >> its SIMH with a nice panel > > I was going to suggest the same thing. Be warned that there's quite a > lot of soldering in a PiDP-8 - although not as much as an SBC-6120! (I > have both) Why I want terminal support is so I can use some of my old clunkers as terminals and access the server from different places in the house. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] PDP for beginners
On Sat, 3 Feb 2018 11:41:38 - "Dave Wade" wrote: > > -Original Message- > > From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Pär > > Moberg > > Sent: 03 February 2018 02:26 > > To: simh@trailing-edge.com > > Subject: [Simh] PDP for beginners > > > > I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine > > and OS should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as > > beginner it got. > > I think I would start with a PDP-8. NO telnet terminal. Simple OS, > lots of software and support. If you want blinken lights try one of > these:- > > http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8-get-one > > its SIMH with a nice panel I was going to suggest the same thing. Be warned that there's quite a lot of soldering in a PiDP-8 - although not as much as an SBC-6120! (I have both) ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] PDP for beginners
> -Original Message- > From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Pär > Moberg > Sent: 03 February 2018 02:26 > To: simh@trailing-edge.com > Subject: [Simh] PDP for beginners > > I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine and OS > should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as beginner it got. I think I would start with a PDP-8. NO telnet terminal. Simple OS, lots of software and support. If you want blinken lights try one of these:- http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8-get-one its SIMH with a nice panel > Also, not *nix, it is still alive and therefore boring. > Telnet terminals would be awesome but not necessary. > //Pär (or Paer) > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh Dave ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] PDP for beginners
El 3 febr 2018, a les 3:25, Pär Moberg va escriure: > I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine and > OS should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as > beginner it got. Also, not *nix, it is still alive and therefore > boring. > Telnet terminals would be awesome but not necessary. Go for a PDP-11 running RT-11 > //Pär (or Paer) > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] PDP for beginners
I am looking to put up a PDP-# machine to play with. What machine and OS should I use. I am looking for simple/beginner system, or as beginner it got. Also, not *nix, it is still alive and therefore boring. Telnet terminals would be awesome but not necessary. //Pär (or Paer) ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh