Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Aug 30, 2011, at 4:06 PM, Simon Burge wrote: > Martin Husemann wrote: > >> Just curious: are there analog TV feeds out there, anywhere, still? > > Some parts of Australia until the end of next year... Quite a few according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_digital_television_deployments_by_country
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
I have ~70 analog channels coming in along with my digital cable service. Canada's digital OTA transition deadline is tomorrow but there are still a few markets where analog broadcasting will continue, my hometown being one of those places. Somewhere in storage I have a VCR with an RF output. I also have a bunch of game consoles, cameras, DVD players, etc with baseband video outputs (composite and S-Video). -Original Message- From: Simon Burge Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:06 PM Newsgroups: gmane.os.netbsd.devel.cvs.discuss To: Martin Husemann Cc: source-changes-d@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4 Martin Husemann wrote: Just curious: are there analog TV feeds out there, anywhere, still? Some parts of Australia until the end of next year... Cheers, Simon.
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
Martin Husemann wrote: > Just curious: are there analog TV feeds out there, anywhere, still? Some parts of Australia until the end of next year... Cheers, Simon.
Re: CVS commit: [cherry-xenmp] src/sys/arch
On 30.08.2011 14:53, Cherry G. Mathew wrote: > Module Name: src > Committed By: cherry > Date: Tue Aug 30 12:53:46 UTC 2011 > > Modified Files: > src/sys/arch/i386/i386 [cherry-xenmp]: machdep.c > src/sys/arch/xen/x86 [cherry-xenmp]: cpu.c x86_xpmap.c > > Log Message: > Add per-cpu mmu queues Thanks for looking into it! -- Jean-Yves Migeon jeanyves.mig...@free.fr
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 06:51:09PM +0200, Marc Balmer wrote: > To address this issue, I think we are slowly moving towards modularized > kernels. So what I said is about drivers and kernel subsystem, that are > not yet available as modules. But modules are still WIP, and I think > there are still a few problems left to be solved before we can say we > are an OS with a modular kernel. Yes, but the problem with legacy drivers and other old subsystems is that presumably in many cases no one any longer possesses the hardware, and thus the modularization can not be done safely. > And when uncomment sth you need, you get yelled at, "USE YOUR OWN KERNEL > CONFIG" Heh, indeed I still need to compile custom kernels to use things like IPSec or altq(4), whereas all those numerous people with MPU 401 UARTs enjoy their GENERIC. - Jukka.
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
Am 30.08.11 18:44, schrieb Jukka Ruohonen: > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 06:33:18PM +0200, Marc Balmer wrote: >> Am 30.08.11 18:22, schrieb Jukka Ruohonen: >> And why should GENERIC *not* support hardware that is available, works, >> and is of use to someone? If GENERIC is to support only the idea of >> what an OS should look for some developers, why do we ship GENERIC at >> all and not tell folks to create their own kernels? > > I don't disagree on principle.[1] But sooner or later you end up with > tremendous amount legacy stuff and things that 0.001 % of people use. > And then people go and compile their own kernels because of that. To address this issue, I think we are slowly moving towards modularized kernels. So what I said is about drivers and kernel subsystem, that are not yet available as modules. But modules are still WIP, and I think there are still a few problems left to be solved before we can say we are an OS with a modular kernel. > Do you think Linux distributions ship kernels with all their drivers > compiled into one monolithic unit? And why not? I don't care what Linux does. This is BSD. Memory does not matter. There is no reason to not include stuff in a kernel. > > - Jukka. > > [1] For years, it was more than annoying that even the installation kernel > lacked e.g. cgd(4). Even today, many *important* things are commented > out, while many inane things from the early 1990s are compiled in. And when uncomment sth you need, you get yelled at, "USE YOUR OWN KERNEL CONFIG"
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 06:33:18PM +0200, Marc Balmer wrote: > Am 30.08.11 18:22, schrieb Jukka Ruohonen: > And why should GENERIC *not* support hardware that is available, works, > and is of use to someone? If GENERIC is to support only the idea of > what an OS should look for some developers, why do we ship GENERIC at > all and not tell folks to create their own kernels? I don't disagree on principle.[1] But sooner or later you end up with tremendous amount legacy stuff and things that 0.001 % of people use. And then people go and compile their own kernels because of that. Do you think Linux distributions ship kernels with all their drivers compiled into one monolithic unit? And why not? - Jukka. [1] For years, it was more than annoying that even the installation kernel lacked e.g. cgd(4). Even today, many *important* things are commented out, while many inane things from the early 1990s are compiled in.
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:42:34PM +0300, Jukka Ruohonen wrote: > > > XXX: This driver should be converted (or even bluntly removed, given the > > > lack of general third-party software support). > > > > It is supported by "pkgsrc/multimedia/fxtv" which the last time I had > > an analog TV feed worked well enough to watch TV. > > Yes, I know there may be few, largely "irrelevant" (old, non-maintained?), > programs that may work with it. But the major ones in this field -- be it > mplayer, MythTV, VDR, Kaffeine, VLC, Totem, you name it -- won't work. > > The open source scene in this field has made some big leaps. That's why we > have dtv(4) and FreeBSD has "Cuse4BSD". Old BSD-specific solutions have no > future. I'm not argueing with any of that. I actually think it is great that NetBSD now provides video capture drivers that work with a lot of third party software. This is however not related to my comment. The bktr(4) driver allows users to watch TV with the "fxtv" package. As long as the driver can still support that use case and doesn't get in the way of a major other feature it should be left alone. The best solution would of course to replace it with a driver for the new framework. But that might be a lot of work for hardware which might become obsolete in the near future. Kind regards -- Matthias Scheler http://zhadum.org.uk/
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:42:18PM +0200, Martin Husemann wrote: > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 01:31:50PM +0100, Matthias Scheler wrote: > > It is supported by "pkgsrc/multimedia/fxtv" which the last time I had > > an analog TV feed worked well enough to watch TV. > > Just curious: are there analog TV feeds out there, anywhere, still? I thought you can still get (or rather keep) analog Cable TV in Germany. And you might be able to feed the output of a digital set-top box into one of these cards as well. Kind regards -- Matthias Scheler http://zhadum.org.uk/
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
Am 30.08.11 18:22, schrieb Jukka Ruohonen: > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:10:05AM -0500, David Young wrote: >> >> The driver should be converted, however, I don't think that there is >> a case for "bluntly removing" bktr(4), > > Yes, I was corrected already (the conversion should go towards video(4)). > > But as always, it is about picking the good defaults for GENERIC. And why should GENERIC *not* support hardware that is available, works, and is of use to someone? If GENERIC is to support only the idea of what an OS should look for some developers, why do we ship GENERIC at all and not tell folks to create their own kernels? I find this "this-does-not-belong-in-GENERIC" attitude of some folks here quite unreasonable. We have match and attach in autoconfiguration, if the hardware is not present, no harm is done. Oh don't tell me it's the build time. I rather think it is just because some folks *think* that this and that should not be in GENERIC just because *they* don't use it...
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:10:05AM -0500, David Young wrote: > > The driver should be converted, however, I don't think that there is > a case for "bluntly removing" bktr(4), Yes, I was corrected already (the conversion should go towards video(4)). But as always, it is about picking the good defaults for GENERIC. - Jukka.
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 05:58:02AM +, Jukka Ruohonen wrote: > Module Name: src > Committed By: jruoho > Date: Tue Aug 30 05:58:02 UTC 2011 > > Modified Files: > src/share/man/man4: bktr.4 > > Log Message: > Note that bktr(4) is not part of the dtv(4) infrastructure. > > XXX: This driver should be converted (or even bluntly removed, given the > lack of general third-party software support). Jukka, The driver should be converted, however, I don't think that there is a case for "bluntly removing" bktr(4), yet: the Brooktree devices are still manufactured, they are still used for CCTV, and they were until very recently (I reckon, "still") supported by programs such as ffmpeg. A client of mine even shipped a product that relies on the "legacy" bktr(4) interface. So you could say that it is "not quite dead yet." Dave -- David Young OJC Technologies dyo...@ojctech.com Urbana, IL * (217) 344-0444 x24
Re: CVS commit: src/sys/arch
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 08:01:13AM +, Jukka Ruohonen wrote: > Module Name: src > Committed By: jruoho > Date: Tue Aug 30 08:01:13 UTC 2011 > > Modified Files: > src/sys/arch/amd64/conf: GENERIC > src/sys/arch/i386/conf: GENERIC > > Log Message: > Comment out the legacy bktr(4) from the GENERICs. Please put that back. Dave -- David Young OJC Technologies dyo...@ojctech.com Urbana, IL * (217) 344-0444 x24
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 01:31:50PM +0100, Matthias Scheler wrote: > It is supported by "pkgsrc/multimedia/fxtv" which the last time I had > an analog TV feed worked well enough to watch TV. Just curious: are there analog TV feeds out there, anywhere, still? Martin
Re: CVS commit: src/sys/arch
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:14:53PM +0200, Marc Balmer wrote: > Am 30.08.11 12:33, schrieb Jukka Ruohonen: > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 06:28:20AM -0400, Jared McNeill wrote: > >> Uh? The bktr driver works fine and the cards are still useful and they > >> drivers are not modularized. > > > > But in my opinion, like many things, it is not something to be enabled by > > default in the GENERIC kernels. > > My standpoint is that working drivers should be enabled by default (new > ones maybe after some "field" testing). So users can make the best use > of NetBSD. They have some hardware, and NetBSD just supports it. Well, we are still waiting core@'s resolution for the last case. So I guess there is currently no policy whatsoever regarding GENERICs (and MONOLITHIC oxymorons). - Jukka.
Re: CVS commit: src/sys/arch
Am 30.08.11 12:33, schrieb Jukka Ruohonen: > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 06:28:20AM -0400, Jared McNeill wrote: >> Uh? The bktr driver works fine and the cards are still useful and they >> drivers are not modularized. > > But in my opinion, like many things, it is not something to be enabled by > default in the GENERIC kernels. My standpoint is that working drivers should be enabled by default (new ones maybe after some "field" testing). So users can make the best use of NetBSD. They have some hardware, and NetBSD just supports it.
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:42:34PM +0300, Jukka Ruohonen wrote: > mplayer, MythTV, VDR, Kaffeine, VLC, Totem, you name it -- won't work. Correction: mplayer may work. I have couple of these cards and if time permits, I might consider a dtv(4) rewrite. - Jukka.
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 01:31:50PM +0100, Matthias Scheler wrote: > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 05:58:02AM +, Jukka Ruohonen wrote: > > Module Name:src > > Committed By: jruoho > > Date: Tue Aug 30 05:58:02 UTC 2011 > > > > Modified Files: > > src/share/man/man4: bktr.4 > > > > Log Message: > > Note that bktr(4) is not part of the dtv(4) infrastructure. > > > > XXX: This driver should be converted (or even bluntly removed, given the > > lack of general third-party software support). > > It is supported by "pkgsrc/multimedia/fxtv" which the last time I had > an analog TV feed worked well enough to watch TV. Yes, I know there may be few, largely "irrelevant" (old, non-maintained?), programs that may work with it. But the major ones in this field -- be it mplayer, MythTV, VDR, Kaffeine, VLC, Totem, you name it -- won't work. The open source scene in this field has made some big leaps. That's why we have dtv(4) and FreeBSD has "Cuse4BSD". Old BSD-specific solutions have no future. - Jukka.
Re: CVS commit: src/share/man/man4
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 05:58:02AM +, Jukka Ruohonen wrote: > Module Name: src > Committed By: jruoho > Date: Tue Aug 30 05:58:02 UTC 2011 > > Modified Files: > src/share/man/man4: bktr.4 > > Log Message: > Note that bktr(4) is not part of the dtv(4) infrastructure. > > XXX: This driver should be converted (or even bluntly removed, given the > lack of general third-party software support). It is supported by "pkgsrc/multimedia/fxtv" which the last time I had an analog TV feed worked well enough to watch TV. Kind regards -- Matthias Scheler http://zhadum.org.uk/
Re: CVS commit: src/sys/arch
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 06:28:20AM -0400, Jared McNeill wrote: > Uh? The bktr driver works fine and the cards are still useful and they > drivers are not modularized. But in my opinion, like many things, it is not something to be enabled by default in the GENERIC kernels. - Jukka. > -Original Message- > From: Jukka Ruohonen > Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 4:01 AM Newsgroups: > gmane.os.netbsd.devel.cvs.full > To: source-changes-full-qavaossjccednm+yrof...@public.gmane.org > Subject: CVS commit: src/sys/arch > > Module Name: src > Committed By: jruoho > Date: Tue Aug 30 08:01:13 UTC 2011 > > Modified Files: > src/sys/arch/amd64/conf: GENERIC > src/sys/arch/i386/conf: GENERIC > > Log Message: > Comment out the legacy bktr(4) from the GENERICs. > > > To generate a diff of this commit: > cvs rdiff -u -r1.334 -r1.335 src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC > cvs rdiff -u -r1.1049 -r1.1050 src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC > > Please note that diffs are not public domain; they are subject to the > copyright notices on the relevant files. > > > > > > > > Modified files: > > Index: src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC > diff -u src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC:1.334 > src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC:1.335 > --- src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC:1.334 Thu Aug 18 20:55:21 2011 > +++ src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC Tue Aug 30 08:01:13 2011 > @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ > -# $NetBSD: GENERIC,v 1.334 2011/08/18 20:55:21 jakllsch Exp $ > +# $NetBSD: GENERIC,v 1.335 2011/08/30 08:01:13 jruoho Exp $ > # > # GENERIC machine description file > # > @@ -22,7 +22,7 @@ > > options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # embed config file in kernel binary > > -#ident "GENERIC-$Revision: 1.334 $" > +#ident "GENERIC-$Revision: 1.335 $" > > maxusers 64 # estimated number of users > > @@ -1032,8 +1032,8 @@ > # TV cards > > # Brooktree 848/849/878/879 based TV cards > -bktr* at pci? dev ? function ? > -radio* at bktr? > +#bktr* at pci? dev ? function ? > +#radio* at bktr? > > # Conexant CX2388[0-3]-based DTV cards > #cxdtv* at pci? dev ? function ? > > Index: src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC > diff -u src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC:1.1049 > src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC:1.1050 > --- src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC:1.1049 Sat Aug 27 09:28:55 2011 > +++ src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC Tue Aug 30 08:01:13 2011 > @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ > -# $NetBSD: GENERIC,v 1.1049 2011/08/27 09:28:55 mbalmer Exp $ > +# $NetBSD: GENERIC,v 1.1050 2011/08/30 08:01:13 jruoho Exp $ > # > # GENERIC machine description file > # > @@ -22,7 +22,7 @@ > > options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # embed config file in kernel binary > > -#ident "GENERIC-$Revision: 1.1049 $" > +#ident "GENERIC-$Revision: 1.1050 $" > > maxusers 64 # estimated number of users > > @@ -1433,8 +1433,8 @@ > # TV cards > > # Brooktree 848/849/878/879 based TV cards > -bktr* at pci? dev ? function ? > -radio* at bktr? > +#bktr* at pci? dev ? function ? > +#radio* at bktr? > > # Conexant CX2388[0-3]-based DTV cards > #cxdtv* at pci? dev ? function ? >
Re: CVS commit: src/sys/arch
Uh? The bktr driver works fine and the cards are still useful and they drivers are not modularized. -Original Message- From: Jukka Ruohonen Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 4:01 AM Newsgroups: gmane.os.netbsd.devel.cvs.full To: source-changes-full-qavaossjccednm+yrof...@public.gmane.org Subject: CVS commit: src/sys/arch Module Name: src Committed By: jruoho Date: Tue Aug 30 08:01:13 UTC 2011 Modified Files: src/sys/arch/amd64/conf: GENERIC src/sys/arch/i386/conf: GENERIC Log Message: Comment out the legacy bktr(4) from the GENERICs. To generate a diff of this commit: cvs rdiff -u -r1.334 -r1.335 src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC cvs rdiff -u -r1.1049 -r1.1050 src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC Please note that diffs are not public domain; they are subject to the copyright notices on the relevant files. Modified files: Index: src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC diff -u src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC:1.334 src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC:1.335 --- src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC:1.334 Thu Aug 18 20:55:21 2011 +++ src/sys/arch/amd64/conf/GENERIC Tue Aug 30 08:01:13 2011 @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -# $NetBSD: GENERIC,v 1.334 2011/08/18 20:55:21 jakllsch Exp $ +# $NetBSD: GENERIC,v 1.335 2011/08/30 08:01:13 jruoho Exp $ # # GENERIC machine description file # @@ -22,7 +22,7 @@ options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # embed config file in kernel binary -#ident "GENERIC-$Revision: 1.334 $" +#ident "GENERIC-$Revision: 1.335 $" maxusers 64 # estimated number of users @@ -1032,8 +1032,8 @@ # TV cards # Brooktree 848/849/878/879 based TV cards -bktr* at pci? dev ? function ? -radio* at bktr? +#bktr* at pci? dev ? function ? +#radio* at bktr? # Conexant CX2388[0-3]-based DTV cards #cxdtv* at pci? dev ? function ? Index: src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC diff -u src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC:1.1049 src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC:1.1050 --- src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC:1.1049 Sat Aug 27 09:28:55 2011 +++ src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC Tue Aug 30 08:01:13 2011 @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -# $NetBSD: GENERIC,v 1.1049 2011/08/27 09:28:55 mbalmer Exp $ +# $NetBSD: GENERIC,v 1.1050 2011/08/30 08:01:13 jruoho Exp $ # # GENERIC machine description file # @@ -22,7 +22,7 @@ options INCLUDE_CONFIG_FILE # embed config file in kernel binary -#ident "GENERIC-$Revision: 1.1049 $" +#ident "GENERIC-$Revision: 1.1050 $" maxusers 64 # estimated number of users @@ -1433,8 +1433,8 @@ # TV cards # Brooktree 848/849/878/879 based TV cards -bktr* at pci? dev ? function ? -radio* at bktr? +#bktr* at pci? dev ? function ? +#radio* at bktr? # Conexant CX2388[0-3]-based DTV cards #cxdtv* at pci? dev ? function ?
