Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
Hans Holger Rutz, I have seriously read Rasa's article. In Latvia, the BIB growth from 2005-2018 (with the exception of 2008-2010) was always higher than the EU average, often up to 400%. (Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lettland#wirtschaftsdaten). This is a very large difference between factual situation and what was written here in the discussion. You are welcome to research other discrepancies yourself. I was in Riga in 2003 at the RIXC conference - it took place in a very desolate looking school building. About 10 years later I was again in Riga: Rixc conference took place in the building of the business school - well equipped with best infrastructure etc. - no difference to a German university. In 2003, as a result of a democratic decision, the Russian minority (approx. 25% of the population) was the uderdogs. In front of people who talked in Russian was spit out on the open street. Russian language people were not served in bars. In 2013 the situation was a little more relaxed; However, democratic development in Latvia is to remove the Russian language completely from schools, which necessarily has to lead to moods in the Russian administration, regardless of whether there is a Putin, a Jelzin or a Gorbachoff. To get to the point: In addition to the dichotomy outlined by Rasa, I stand on the third side. These are those people who suffer from war, these are those people in front of which are spit out for no reason, these are those people who die from hunger because the Ukrainian grain deliveries are absent, and these are the people who end up in prison because they make use of freedom of speech. To claim to have read the "wrong" books also belongs here in the arsenal of propaganda. And as a result of that third side you have to analyze, under which condition the war in Ukraine can end. I am not on the side of the aggressors, but also not on the side of those who make false decisions using a democratic majority. And at the end: I think little of art projects that make war in Ukraine on the subject of aesthetically charged activities. Best Christoph Hanns Holger Rutz schrieb: Frankly Christoph, I don't think you have absorbed anything that had been written in that very long statement. The whole situation reminds me very much of the coup in Venezuela when Maduro took over after the death of Chavez. Exactly the same "there is only shades of gray, but Chomsky, but America, but bla". There are moments in life when you can make very clear decisions on which side to stand. This doesn't imply at all, that you cannot criticise anyone "on your side". We don't need to be fanboys of USA to take a clear position in this war. But I'm repeating what Rasa already wrote, so I don't know if it makes sense to try to come to any common sense here. As a person that grew up in Western Germany, for the first time I understood that I might be wrong on judging things that I have not personally experienced, was getting to know people, friends, who had tried to flee the GDR or be non-conformant in the GDR, and who ended up in GDR prison and were damaged for life. Best, .h.h. On 18/07/2022 09.51, christoph theiler wrote: Rasa wrote: "In this situation there are only clear two sides - Either Supporting Ukraine or Being Pro -Tutin" I cannot agree with this friend/enemy logic: "If you are not my friend, then you are my enemy". It has already been said here that in addition to Ukraine and Russia, America also plays an important role in this conflict. Best Christoph Rasa Smite schrieb: __ SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe Info, archive and help: http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
Dear Rasa, It seems there are a lot emotions and frustration and the attitude to see things in binomial opposition is making you interpret anything I say as if when I was 8 years old I was a dumb kid brainwashed by the Soviet Union. The conversation here is not constructive as there is no space to say anything that isn't aligned with what you wrote earlier, that you are either willing to throw bombs with Biden "in the name of freedom", or you are willing to throw bombs with Putin "in the name of Russian totalitarian regime". And because I do not want to align to any of this, but rather NOT THROW BOMBS AT ALL, you are attacking me and my naive 7 or 8 year old self with a certain ferocity which is exactly the opposite of peace and dialogue. But don't worry, I forgive it, I understand that the feelings at play are intense. It did surprise me to see that from my first email there was no reaction to my comment on Dutch journalism and Dutch society, whilst the gun was shot twice towards the desires of a little girl offended by the supremacy of a foreign culture which colonised her country dropping chocolate bars and female tights from the sky. I don't know how familiar you are with Italian history in general and Togliatti's role in particular. A very good book I may suggest is Paul Ginsborg's "A History of Contemporary Italy: 1943-80". Also, for your information, I wasn't raised in Disneyland, and being the last child in a large family, my parents had both seen fascism and the second world war. I heard first hand stories about the war, what it meant to go to a school without windows or having to change city every few months to escape the bombs. And being my dad from Milan and my mum from the very South Lecce, I have heard the same stories narrated from different geographical perspectives. I have also seen documents, such as primary school books of the fascist era. What you tell me about Lenin's Russia has similarities to what I have seen or heard from my father's Mussolini Italy (however, when I was that age the secretary was Gorbachev). Then again, apart from attacking my personal histories, why haven't you commented on the war in Afganistan? And also, why have you ignored what I have said about being raised in a country where the naked female body was splashed all over the city to sell everything, from tyres to bubble gum? Don't you think that that form of communication was violent? Or is it also part of Disney's total animation? Among the reasons I was trying to fantasise that perhaps there was an alternative to the real I was experiencing were the modalities of pervasive capitalist communication and their use of the female body. But I supposed that, as they were teaching you to operate guns at school, your social identity as a woman wasn't defined as a "walking bum with boobs and several holes to be fulfilled" by the "more intelligent and technically capable" Man. Anyway, i will leave the conversation here, I don't have any more time to respond to irrational attacks , I am trying to say that things are complex and there are many perspectives; personally, I don't think Biden is much better than Putin (they are both full of crap), you think one is good and the other one is bad. Fine. Let's agree to disagree. PEACE TO ALL, LOVE TO ALL I send you my deepest, heartfelt blessing, Eleonora On 2022-07-18 00:14, Rasa Smite wrote: Hello Eleonore wrote: "My anecdote was in response to Rasa, to highlight that there are multiple perspectives and modalities for cultural appropriation (and rejection)". With this war, we have landed in the situation, where its not anymore that easy to play with "multiple perspectives and modalities" before the ground is not clear and stable enough, before we are not on the same page.. I wrote already, in this situation there are only clearly two sides - either supporting Ukraine or being pro-Putin, there doesn't exist democratic "multiple perspectives and modalities" in this case as we don't deal with democratic country... And your anecdote just shows that there are many misleading ideas around.. this is what I wrote in my reply to Heath: the problem is that most of the marxist-communist-thinking people in the West (who have read bit too much of French and Russian philosophy or literature) today have to revise their theories, notions and realise finally they have been following the wrong dreams (nightmares, trust me...). So it's now your turn, dear people living in UK, and other wealthy Western countries, to put some effort in changing your thinking, your perspectives, and before joining the funny May day parades, and reading 100 years old authors (who have no clue how the communism works in real life), or listen 92 years old capitalism critics (such as Chomsky) please re-think twice before you write something that naive as comparing America's Disney's land "propaganda" with Russia's
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
i understand baltic nation states caution with the russian federation, but the rest of the world is afraid of the USAE 4 million civilians dead since 9/11 https://www.workers.org/2021/10/59727/ estimated civilian deaths as a result of NATO non-defensive actions since formation - 20 million It is the first chance in hundred years when secret service took over whole country (talking about Russia). cia runs USA democracy for USAE also MI5 runs UK democracy for USAE https://declassifieduk.org/how-the-uk-military-and-intelligence-establishment-is-working-to-stop-jeremy-corbyn-becoming-prime-minister/~ wisdom is proportional to proportionality __ SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe Info, archive and help: http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
On 17/07/2022 15:35, heath bunting wrote: i think its worth drawing a distinction between the soviet union and the russian federation both politically and historically I think there is no distinction between Russia now and Soviet Union, both are imperialist countries. Even worse: Soviet Union was ruled by the communist party, it was superior to KGB. Now, the secret service is ruling the country, even the president is secret service guy. It is the first chance in hundred years when secret service took over whole country (talking about Russia). Raivo P.s. I totally agree with Rasa. -- -- Raivo Kelomees __ SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe Info, archive and help: http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
Frankly Christoph, I don't think you have absorbed anything that had been written in that very long statement. The whole situation reminds me very much of the coup in Venezuela when Maduro took over after the death of Chavez. Exactly the same "there is only shades of gray, but Chomsky, but America, but bla". There are moments in life when you can make very clear decisions on which side to stand. This doesn't imply at all, that you cannot criticise anyone "on your side". We don't need to be fanboys of USA to take a clear position in this war. But I'm repeating what Rasa already wrote, so I don't know if it makes sense to try to come to any common sense here. As a person that grew up in Western Germany, for the first time I understood that I might be wrong on judging things that I have not personally experienced, was getting to know people, friends, who had tried to flee the GDR or be non-conformant in the GDR, and who ended up in GDR prison and were damaged for life. Best, .h.h. On 18/07/2022 09.51, christoph theiler wrote: Rasa wrote: "In this situation there are only clear two sides - Either Supporting Ukraine or Being Pro -Tutin" I cannot agree with this friend/enemy logic: "If you are not my friend, then you are my enemy". It has already been said here that in addition to Ukraine and Russia, America also plays an important role in this conflict. Best Christoph Rasa Smite schrieb: __ SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe Info, archive and help: http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses
Rasa wrote: "In this situation there are only clear two sides - Either Supporting Ukraine or Being Pro -Tutin" I cannot agree with this friend/enemy logic: "If you are not my friend, then you are my enemy". It has already been said here that in addition to Ukraine and Russia, America also plays an important role in this conflict. Best Christoph Rasa Smite schrieb: Hello Eleonore wrote: "My anecdote was in response to Rasa, to highlight that there are multiple perspectives and modalities for cultural appropriation (and rejection)". With this war, we have landed in the situation, where its not anymore that easy to play with "multiple perspectives and modalities" before the ground is not clear and stable enough, before we are not on the same page.. I wrote already, in this situation there are only clearly two sides - either supporting Ukraine or being pro-Putin, there doesn't exist democratic "multiple perspectives and modalities" in this case as we don't deal with democratic country... And your anecdote just shows that there are many misleading ideas around.. this is what I wrote in my reply to Heath: the problem is that most of the marxist-communist-thinking people in the West (who have read bit too much of French and Russian philosophy or literature) today have to revise their theories, notions and realise finally they have been following the wrong dreams (nightmares, trust me...). So it's now your turn, dear people living in UK, and other wealthy Western countries, to put some effort in changing your thinking, your perspectives, and before joining the funny May day parades, and reading 100 years old authors (who have no clue how the communism works in real life), or listen 92 years old capitalism critics (such as Chomsky) please re-think twice before you write something that naive as comparing America's Disney's land "propaganda" with Russia's aggressive invasion targeting civilians, killing children, raping women in Ukraine, which is happening there everyday. So why not, please do so - change your way of thinking, finally! Please be so empathetic that you at least pretend to do so - for a sake of Ukraine's disaster... We, people here in Eastern Europe are used to switch our perspectives constantly, we have done it so many times that we now even cannot answer a simple question: "and how is your tradition (e.g. in Latvia) with the education, for example?" I am sorry, there is no such thing as "our way or our tradition!" we have been listening for almost 30 years British experts, we have learned from the most amazing Finnish school experience, and we have adapted exams from German "abitur", we have been trying hard, and still are one of the most poor countries in EU, BUT - I wouldn't call it "colonising", and never ever would even think of going back to anything similar that was once called "the Soviet Union" - NB! btw- there never was such a thing as USSR, it was just an extended Russia'n Empire with unfairly and aggressively occupied neighbouring countries before and during WW2, who were forced to believe that Russians have "saved and freed us" and that "they brought the real culture" (making us feel lesser), but they didn't succeed, nobody inside of USSR believed in this bullshit... Just sadly I never realized that the communist propaganda was so effective beyond the USSR border, that some people in West and otehr parts of the world truly believed that USSR may be a better alternative to Western capitalism... But talking about the "Soviet times", there was even big difference between Ryszard's and mine childhood, because Ryszard lived in Poland, but I lived in Soviet Latvia, which was a part of USSR, and this was such a big difference that for some time I even didn't realize that Poland, Yugoslavia, Chechoslovakia etc. belonged to the so called "soviet" block, because for us at USSR (with completely cut any information or culture coming from the West) - even Poland seemed like beautiful and shiny country "abroad", where everything was much more better then in soviet uni. When I went to the school in 1970s, I had to participate in special military parade competitions every year couple of times; we were singing the hymn of Russia and the hymn of USSR, and when we won the competition in the school level - then we participated in the national level..., and singing all these songs (in Russian), marching, and shouting loud how much we love Lenin... while at the same time, we all - everybody of us: starting from the 1st grade children to the director of the school knew that all this are the lies, the total bullshit, but we were not allowed to question anything of that, we just did it, as we had to. And if you ever asked something or initiated anything (because all things around which I saw in my childhood were so wrong, so dirty, so terrible, and grey...), you were shut up quickly as you gradually realized that nothing ever
