Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[christoph theiler]

Hans Holger Rutz,

I have seriously read Rasa's article.

 In Latvia, the BIB growth from 2005-2018 (with the exception of 
2008-2010) was always higher than the EU average,
often up to 400%. (Source: 
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lettland#wirtschaftsdaten).
This is a very large difference between factual situation and what was 
written here in the discussion.

You are welcome to research other discrepancies yourself.

 I was in Riga in 2003 at the RIXC conference - it took place in a very 
desolate looking school building.
About 10 years later I was again in Riga: Rixc conference took place in 
the building of the business school - well equipped with best 
infrastructure etc. -

no difference to a German university.

In 2003, as a result of a democratic decision, the Russian minority 
(approx. 25% of the population) was the uderdogs.

In front of people who talked in Russian was spit out on the open street.
Russian language people were not served in bars.
 In 2013 the situation was a little more relaxed; However, democratic 
development in Latvia is to remove the Russian language completely from 
schools,
which necessarily has to lead to moods in the Russian administration, 
regardless of whether there is a Putin, a Jelzin or a Gorbachoff.


To get to the point:
In addition to the dichotomy outlined by Rasa, I stand on the third side.
These are those people who suffer from war, these are those people in 
front of which are spit out for no reason,
these are those people who die from hunger because the Ukrainian grain 
deliveries are absent,
 and these are the people who end up in prison because they make use of 
freedom of speech.
To claim to have read the "wrong" books also belongs here in the arsenal 
of propaganda.


And as a result of that third side you have to analyze, under which 
condition the war in Ukraine can end.


 I am not on the side of the aggressors, but also not on the side of 
those who make false decisions using a democratic majority.
And at the end: I think little of art projects that make war in Ukraine 
on the subject of aesthetically charged activities.


Best
Christoph






Hanns Holger Rutz schrieb:
Frankly Christoph, I don't think you have absorbed anything that had 
been written in that very long statement.


The whole situation reminds me very much of the coup in Venezuela when 
Maduro took over after the death of Chavez. Exactly the same "there is 
only shades of gray, but Chomsky, but America, but bla".


There are moments in life when you can make very clear decisions on 
which side to stand. This doesn't imply at all, that you cannot 
criticise anyone "on your side". We don't need to be fanboys of USA to 
take a clear position in this war. But I'm repeating what Rasa already 
wrote, so I don't know if it makes sense to try to come to any common 
sense here.


As a person that grew up in Western Germany, for the first time I 
understood that I might be wrong on judging things that I have not 
personally experienced, was getting to know people, friends, who had 
tried to flee the GDR or be non-conformant in the GDR, and who ended 
up in GDR prison and were damaged for life.


Best, .h.h.



On 18/07/2022 09.51, christoph theiler wrote:
Rasa wrote: "In this situation there are only clear two sides - 
Either Supporting Ukraine or Being Pro -Tutin"


I cannot agree with this friend/enemy logic: "If you are not my 
friend, then you are my enemy".
It has already been said here that in addition to Ukraine and Russia, 
America also plays an important role in this conflict.


Best
Christoph




Rasa Smite schrieb:




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Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[xname]

Dear Rasa,

It seems there are a lot emotions and frustration and the attitude to 
see things in binomial opposition is making you interpret anything I say 
as if when I was 8 years old I was a dumb kid brainwashed by the Soviet 
Union.


The conversation here is not constructive as there is no space to say 
anything that isn't aligned with what you wrote earlier, that you are 
either willing to throw bombs with Biden "in the name of freedom", or 
you are willing to throw bombs with Putin "in the name of Russian 
totalitarian regime".


And because I do not want to align to any of this, but rather NOT THROW 
BOMBS AT ALL, you are attacking me and my naive 7 or 8 year old self 
with a certain ferocity which is exactly the opposite of peace and 
dialogue.


But don't worry, I forgive it, I understand that the feelings at play 
are intense.


It did surprise me to see that from my first email there was no reaction 
to my comment on Dutch journalism and Dutch society, whilst the gun was 
shot twice towards the desires of a little girl offended by the 
supremacy of a foreign culture which colonised her country dropping 
chocolate bars and female tights from the sky. I don't know how familiar 
you are with Italian history in general and Togliatti's role in 
particular. A very good book I may suggest is Paul Ginsborg's "A History 
of Contemporary Italy: 1943-80".


Also, for your information, I wasn't raised in Disneyland, and being the 
last child in a large family, my parents had both seen fascism and the 
second world war. I heard first hand stories about the war, what it 
meant to go to a school without windows or having to change city every 
few months to escape the bombs. And being my dad from Milan and my mum 
from the very South Lecce, I have heard the same stories narrated from 
different geographical perspectives. I have also seen documents, such as 
primary school books of the fascist era. What you tell me about Lenin's 
Russia has similarities to what I have seen or heard from my father's 
Mussolini Italy (however, when I was that age the secretary was 
Gorbachev).


Then again, apart from attacking my personal histories, why haven't you 
commented on the war in Afganistan?


And also, why have you ignored what I have said about being raised in a 
country where the naked female body was splashed all over the city to 
sell everything, from tyres to bubble gum? Don't you think that that 
form of communication was violent? Or is it also part of Disney's total 
animation?


Among the reasons I was trying to fantasise that perhaps there was an 
alternative to the real I was experiencing were the modalities of 
pervasive capitalist communication and their use of the female body. But 
I supposed that, as they were teaching you to operate guns at school, 
your social identity as a woman wasn't defined as a "walking bum with 
boobs and several holes to be fulfilled" by the "more intelligent and 
technically capable" Man.


Anyway, i will leave the conversation here, I don't have any more time 
to respond to irrational attacks , I am trying to say that things are 
complex and there are many perspectives; personally, I don't think Biden 
is much better than Putin (they are both full of crap), you think one is 
good and the other one is bad. Fine. Let's agree to disagree.


PEACE TO ALL, LOVE TO ALL

I send you my deepest, heartfelt blessing,

Eleonora

On 2022-07-18 00:14, Rasa Smite wrote:


Hello

Eleonore wrote: "My anecdote was in response to Rasa, to highlight that 
there are multiple perspectives and modalities for cultural 
appropriation (and rejection)".


With this war, we have landed in the situation, where its not anymore 
that easy to play with "multiple perspectives and modalities" before 
the ground is not clear and stable enough, before we are not on the 
same page..
I wrote already, in this situation there are only clearly two sides - 
either supporting Ukraine or being pro-Putin, there doesn't exist 
democratic "multiple perspectives and modalities" in this case as we 
don't deal with democratic country...


And your anecdote just shows that there are many misleading ideas 
around.. this is what I wrote in my reply to Heath: the problem is that 
most of the marxist-communist-thinking people in the West (who have 
read bit too much of French and Russian philosophy or literature) today 
have to revise their theories, notions and realise finally they have 
been following the wrong dreams (nightmares, trust me...).


So it's now your turn, dear people living in UK, and other wealthy 
Western countries, to put some effort in changing your thinking, your 
perspectives, and before joining the funny May day parades, and reading 
100 years old authors (who have no clue how the communism works in real 
life), or listen 92 years old capitalism critics (such as Chomsky) 
please re-think twice before you write something that naive as 
comparing America's Disney's land "propaganda" with Russia's 

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[heath bunting]

i understand baltic nation states caution with the russian federation, but 
the rest of the world is afraid of the USAE


4 million civilians dead since 9/11

https://www.workers.org/2021/10/59727/

estimated civilian deaths as a result of NATO non-defensive actions
since formation - 20 million

It is the first chance in hundred years when secret service took over 
whole country (talking about Russia).


cia runs USA democracy for USAE

also

MI5 runs UK democracy for USAE

https://declassifieduk.org/how-the-uk-military-and-intelligence-establishment-is-working-to-stop-jeremy-corbyn-becoming-prime-minister/~



wisdom is proportional to proportionality
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Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[Raivo Kelomees]

On 17/07/2022 15:35, heath bunting wrote:
i think its worth drawing a distinction between the soviet union and 
the russian federation both politically and historically 



I think there is no distinction between Russia now and Soviet Union, 
both are imperialist countries. Even worse: Soviet Union was ruled by 
the communist party, it was superior to KGB. Now, the secret service is 
ruling the country, even the president is secret service guy. It is the 
first chance in hundred years when secret service took over whole 
country (talking about Russia).


Raivo

P.s. I totally agree with Rasa.

--
--
Raivo Kelomees



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Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[Hanns Holger Rutz]

Frankly Christoph, I don't think you have absorbed anything that had 
been written in that very long statement.


The whole situation reminds me very much of the coup in Venezuela when 
Maduro took over after the death of Chavez. Exactly the same "there is 
only shades of gray, but Chomsky, but America, but bla".


There are moments in life when you can make very clear decisions on 
which side to stand. This doesn't imply at all, that you cannot 
criticise anyone "on your side". We don't need to be fanboys of USA to 
take a clear position in this war. But I'm repeating what Rasa already 
wrote, so I don't know if it makes sense to try to come to any common 
sense here.


As a person that grew up in Western Germany, for the first time I 
understood that I might be wrong on judging things that I have not 
personally experienced, was getting to know people, friends, who had 
tried to flee the GDR or be non-conformant in the GDR, and who ended up 
in GDR prison and were damaged for life.


Best, .h.h.



On 18/07/2022 09.51, christoph theiler wrote:
Rasa wrote: "In this situation there are only clear two sides - Either 
Supporting Ukraine or Being Pro -Tutin"


I cannot agree with this friend/enemy logic: "If you are not my friend, 
then you are my enemy".
It has already been said here that in addition to Ukraine and Russia, 
America also plays an important role in this conflict.


Best
Christoph




Rasa Smite schrieb:

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Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[christoph theiler]

Rasa wrote: "In this situation there are only clear two sides - Either 
Supporting Ukraine or Being Pro -Tutin"


I cannot agree with this friend/enemy logic: "If you are not my friend, 
then you are my enemy".
It has already been said here that in addition to Ukraine and Russia, 
America also plays an important role in this conflict.


Best
Christoph




Rasa Smite schrieb:


Hello

Eleonore wrote: "My anecdote was in response to Rasa, to highlight 
that there are multiple perspectives and modalities for cultural 
appropriation (and rejection)".


With this war, we have landed in the situation, where its not anymore 
that easy to play with "multiple perspectives and modalities" before 
the ground is not clear and stable enough, before we are not on the 
same page..
I wrote already, in this situation there are only clearly two sides - 
either supporting Ukraine or being pro-Putin, there doesn't exist 
democratic "multiple perspectives and modalities" in this case as we 
don't deal with democratic country...


And your anecdote just shows that there are many misleading ideas 
around.. this is what I wrote in my reply to Heath: the problem is 
that most of the marxist-communist-thinking people in the West (who 
have read bit too much of French and Russian philosophy or literature) 
today have to revise their theories, notions and realise finally they 
have been following the wrong dreams (nightmares, trust me...).


So it's now your turn, dear people living in UK, and other wealthy 
Western countries, to put some effort in changing your thinking, your 
perspectives, and before joining the funny May day parades, and 
reading 100 years old authors (who have no clue how the communism 
works in real life), or listen 92 years old capitalism critics (such 
as Chomsky) please re-think twice before you write something that 
naive as comparing America's Disney's land "propaganda" with Russia's 
aggressive invasion targeting civilians, killing children, raping 
women in Ukraine, which is happening there everyday.


So why not, please do so - change your way of thinking, finally! 
Please be so empathetic that you at least pretend to do so - for a 
sake of Ukraine's disaster... We, people here in Eastern Europe are 
used to switch our perspectives constantly, we have done it so many 
times that we now even cannot answer a simple question: "and how is 
your tradition (e.g. in Latvia) with the education, for example?" I am 
sorry, there is no such thing as "our way or our tradition!" we have 
been listening for almost 30 years British experts, we have learned 
from the most amazing Finnish school experience, and we have adapted 
exams from German "abitur", we have been trying hard, and still are 
one of the most poor countries in EU,
BUT - I wouldn't call it "colonising", and never ever would even think 
of going back to anything similar that was once called "the Soviet 
Union" - NB! btw- there never was such a thing as USSR, it was just an 
extended Russia'n Empire with unfairly and aggressively occupied 
neighbouring countries before and during WW2, who were forced to 
believe that Russians have "saved and freed us" and that "they brought 
the real culture" (making us feel lesser), but they didn't succeed, 
nobody inside of USSR believed in this bullshit... Just sadly I never 
realized that the communist propaganda was so effective beyond the 
USSR border, that some people in West and otehr parts of the world 
truly believed that USSR may be a better alternative to Western 
capitalism...


But talking about the "Soviet times", there was even big difference 
between Ryszard's and mine childhood, because Ryszard lived in Poland, 
but I lived in Soviet Latvia, which was a part of USSR, and this was 
such a big difference that for some time I even didn't realize that 
Poland, Yugoslavia, Chechoslovakia etc. belonged to the so called 
"soviet" block, because for us at USSR (with completely cut any 
information or culture coming from the West) - even Poland seemed like 
beautiful and shiny country "abroad", where everything was much more 
better then in soviet uni.


When I went to the school in 1970s, I had to participate in special 
military parade competitions every year couple of times; we were 
singing the hymn of Russia and the hymn of USSR, and when we won the 
competition in the school level - then we participated in the national 
level..., and singing all these songs (in Russian), marching, and 
shouting loud how much we love Lenin... while at the same time, we all 
- everybody of us: starting from the 1st grade children to the 
director of the school knew that all this are the lies, the total 
bullshit, but we were not allowed to question anything of that, we 
just did it, as we had to. And if you ever asked something or 
initiated anything (because all things around which I saw in my 
childhood were so wrong, so dirty, so terrible, and grey...), you were 
shut up quickly as you gradually realized that nothing ever 

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[Rasa Smite]

Hello

Eleonore wrote: "My anecdote was in response to Rasa, to highlight that 
there are multiple perspectives and modalities for cultural 
appropriation (and rejection)".


With this war, we have landed in the situation, where its not anymore 
that easy to play with "multiple perspectives and modalities" before the 
ground is not clear and stable enough, before we are not on the same page..
I wrote already, in this situation there are only clearly two sides - 
either supporting Ukraine or being pro-Putin, there doesn't exist 
democratic "multiple perspectives and modalities" in this case as we 
don't deal with democratic country...


And your anecdote just shows that there are many misleading ideas 
around.. this is what I wrote in my reply to Heath: the problem is that 
most of the marxist-communist-thinking people in the West (who have read 
bit too much of French and Russian philosophy or literature) today have 
to revise their theories, notions and realise finally they have been 
following the wrong dreams (nightmares, trust me...).


So it's now your turn, dear people living in UK, and other wealthy 
Western countries, to put some effort in changing your thinking, your 
perspectives, and before joining the funny May day parades, and reading 
100 years old authors (who have no clue how the communism works in real 
life), or listen 92 years old capitalism critics (such as Chomsky) 
please re-think twice before you write something that naive as comparing 
America's Disney's land "propaganda" with Russia's aggressive invasion 
targeting civilians, killing children, raping women in Ukraine, which is 
happening there everyday.


So why not, please do so - change your way of thinking, finally! Please 
be so empathetic that you at least pretend to do so - for a sake of 
Ukraine's disaster... We, people here in Eastern Europe are used to 
switch our perspectives constantly, we have done it so many times that 
we now even cannot answer a simple question: "and how is your tradition 
(e.g. in Latvia) with the education, for example?" I am sorry, there is 
no such thing as "our way or our tradition!" we have been listening for 
almost 30 years British experts, we have learned from the most amazing 
Finnish school experience, and we have adapted exams from German 
"abitur", we have been trying hard, and still are one of the most poor 
countries in EU,
BUT - I wouldn't call it "colonising", and never ever would even think 
of going back to anything similar that was once called "the Soviet 
Union" - NB! btw- there never was such a thing as USSR, it was just an 
extended Russia'n Empire with unfairly and aggressively occupied 
neighbouring countries before and during WW2, who were forced to believe 
that Russians have "saved and freed us" and that "they brought the real 
culture" (making us feel lesser), but they didn't succeed, nobody inside 
of USSR believed in this bullshit... Just sadly I never realized that 
the communist propaganda was so effective beyond the USSR border, that 
some people in West and otehr parts of the world truly believed that 
USSR may be a better alternative to Western capitalism...


But talking about the "Soviet times", there was even big difference 
between Ryszard's and mine childhood, because Ryszard lived in Poland, 
but I lived in Soviet Latvia, which was a part of USSR, and this was 
such a big difference that for some time I even didn't realize that 
Poland, Yugoslavia, Chechoslovakia etc. belonged to the so called 
"soviet" block, because for us at USSR (with completely cut any 
information or culture coming from the West) - even Poland seemed like 
beautiful and shiny country "abroad", where everything was much more 
better then in soviet uni.


When I went to the school in 1970s, I had to participate in special 
military parade competitions every year couple of times; we were singing 
the hymn of Russia and the hymn of USSR, and when we won the competition 
in the school level - then we participated in the national level..., and 
singing all these songs (in Russian), marching, and shouting loud how 
much we love Lenin... while at the same time, we all - everybody of us: 
starting from the 1st grade children to the director of the school knew 
that all this are the lies, the total bullshit, but we were not allowed 
to question anything of that, we just did it, as we had to. And if you 
ever asked something or initiated anything (because all things around 
which I saw in my childhood were so wrong, so dirty, so terrible, and 
grey...), you were shut up quickly as you gradually realized that 
nothing ever can be done, neither achieved, nor succeded... the holes on 
the roads would never get repaired, the light in your corridor if once 
broken, would never get fixed either, your staircase in communal house 
of course was never cleaned, in the shops was only the seller herself, 
as nothing was available (e.g. from drinks - only birch juice, sweet 
with sugar, in 3l jars, from 

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[xname]

Hello Ryszard,

Thanks for your email, and for sharing your view and experience.

I'd clarify here: my childhood desire was towards the unknown, that 
which was not described, as no one was telling us what was really going 
on in Russia, all we had was the fake American dream (which included the 
commodification of female bodies) and literature from the past. I am 
also aware that I was very lucky and privileged growing up in a house 
full of any sorts of books, also having access to many libraries.


My anecdote was in response to Rasa, to highlight that there are 
multiple perspectives and modalities for cultural appropriation (and 
rejection).


I am not disputing what was better or worse, or whose childhood was 
happier. The idea was to acknowledge that also in the West some had a 
curiosity or a wish that that which was not the status quo could be 
better than the real they had to experience.


And I am not at all saying that being under Russian influence is in any 
way a good thing, I am simply saying that the game at stake is a power 
game, it is unfortunately not about anyone's freedom, or better 
interest, but profit.


I am sorry if my email was unclear and you had the impression I was 
trying to decide where to move to, it couldn't be further away from what 
I was trying to express.


Best wishes

Eleonora X, PhD.

On 2022-07-17 21:47, Ryszard Kluszczyński wrote:


Dear Eleonora,

let me quote you:
"During my childhood, in Milan in the 80s, I had an opposite experience 
than yours: my country had been culturally colonised by the US (cinema 
TV clothing etc), and they did think they were better. Most people did 
not notice at all they were colonised, because they had been 
brainwashed. As I happened to dislike American cinema and Disney's 
total animation, but I did read a lot of Italian and French and Russian 
literature and philosophy, I must say it did happen to me during my 
childhood to wish I was in the Soviet Union instead, hoping that that 
would be a better alternative from the dumb hypnotic imperialism that 
had subsumed my contemporaries."


During my childhood in Poland in the 60s, I was not so happy as you in 
the 80s. You could have decided what to read. The Soviet-Russian 
censorships deprived me of such possibilities.
You were happy to avoid the experioence what it really means to live in 
the colonised country, colonised society. But it doesn't mean you 
should not try to imagine and understand what it is really.
Anyway you can try to realise your desire from your childhood. You can 
move to Russia to become the resident. But resident not just visitor.
I understand if you don't decide to do it. A French famous film actor 
who did it once (to avoid paying taxes in France) is already back as I 
heard.


Good luck whatever you decide to do

Ryszard

..
Prof. Ryszard W. Kluszczynski, PhD.
Chair of Department of New Media and Digital Culture
University of Lodz
171/173 Pomorska Street
90-236 Lodz
Poland
tel  +426655133


On 17 Jul 2022, at 18:00, xname  wrote:
During my childhood, in Milan in the 80s, I had an opposite experience 
than yours: my country had been culturally colonised by the US (cinema 
TV clothing etc), and they did think they were better. Most people did 
not notice at all they were colonised, because they had been 
brainwashed. As I happened to dislike American cinema and Disney's 
total animation, but I did read a lot of Italian and French and 
Russian literature and philosophy, I must say it did happen to me 
during my childhood to wish I was in the Soviet Union instead, hoping 
that that would be a better alternative from the dumb hypnotic 
imperialism that had subsumed my contemporaries.


--

phantasmata and illusions

@oracle666
http://xname.cc__
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Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[xname]

Dear Rasa,

Thanks for sharing, and I send you all blessings from London.

The way I read Heats' questions is different, as imho it is always good 
to know who is funding a project and whether those involved as somewhat 
"objects" of the publication have the tools (ie can read the story) to 
participate in the discussion.
It is also fair to remember that the Netherlands has a certain 
reputation of having journalists thrilled to get involved and enunciate 
sentences about "other people's wars" (possibly moved by the kick in 
adrenaline to temporarily forget their lingering depressive boredom, 
eventually stemming from a Ritalin infused society...). This isn't 
obviously about Geert but the general tendency of a small privileged 
society who gives itself credits to comment on other people's non 
privileged societies from shiny institutes with ergonomic chairs and 
fast bandwidth, eventually staring at the ducks swimming through large 
windows facing the canal.


But this is also a partial story infected of stereotypes.

Because the discussion is of course much more complex.

Every time there is a war, there is someone, some "parts", that are 
making money because of the world. Big money.
There is also another reality: the function of weapons is to kill and 
make war.
If you add weapons to the table, you'll increase the "phase space" of a 
war. By no means increasing weapons diminishes war.
Such weapons have also another function, that of making a few rich. It 
is numerical.


These are simple facts, not judgment, not theory.

During my childhood, in Milan in the 80s, I had an opposite experience 
than yours: my country had been culturally colonised by the US (cinema 
TV clothing etc), and they did think they were better. Most people did 
not notice at all they were colonised, because they had been 
brainwashed. As I happened to dislike American cinema and Disney's total 
animation, but I did read a lot of Italian and French and Russian 
literature and philosophy, I must say it did happen to me during my 
childhood to wish I was in the Soviet Union instead, hoping that that 
would be a better alternative from the dumb hypnotic imperialism that 
had subsumed my contemporaries.


Saying that Biden and the United States are worried about "freedom" and 
the freedom of Ukraine, makes me grimly grin.
First of all, the US has done the same several times, for example when 
it invaded Afganistan. Where they fighting for peace?
Secondly, NATO's incessant expansion was clearly tilting any possible 
balance, or that which was left and gave stability during the cold war, 
the binomial function that divided the world but somehow also kept it 
together.


And you know what happens when you have a dickhead on the one hand, and 
another dickhead on the other: things suddenly crack!
Especially if these two dickheads who are toying with the future of the 
world basically don't care about the future at all because they are old 
and they shall retire rather than approach international politics 
without any logic or fear because there is nothing better than a great 
big final collective showdown, rather than a slow lonely end in the 
countryside.


But there is more: as much as making more weapons is not obviously going 
to stop the war, there is also a linguistic issue at play, or better a 
semiotic one. This war has reintroduced the cult for words such as 
courage, nation, heroism, all masculine virtues connected to patriotism. 
But, personally, I don't believe in national identity, I don't want 
borders, I don't care about patriotism, I despise it. And maybe there 
are some women in Ukraine who think so too.


But ultimately it is all very sad and I don't have any answers, I am 
just as confused by the many viewpoints, and of course it is great that 
the Dutch are using some of their funding to make a well designed 
English publication in homage to the people who are dying - and perhaps 
they are also trying to make some theory about what's happening, but I 
did wonder where the money was coming from too as sometimes oppressors 
(or weapons producers) hire and finance their own opposition, that 
happens all the time, so instead of having someone against them, the 
opponents become their employees, it's a brilliant strategy wildly used 
in the UK too to make things appear as if they had a broad critical 
spectrum, as if there was freedom of speech.


So, if I was Geert, I'd have just shared the info immediately rather 
than reacting in a defensive tone.


In the end, I don't speak Russian, altho I did try to study it when I 
was in primary school, and it took a long time to find a book as there 
was no manual, no books, no recordings, nothing. But I did learn the 
alphabet and the first word I looked up, which stayed with me forever, 
was мир -/mir/, PEACE.


My 2 cents
Eleonora

PS
Paolo Fabbri, my professor of semiotics, used to say that 'peace' is an 
active process, which requires more energy and force because it has to 

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[info]

El 2022-07-17 11:30, i...@madatac.es escribió:

Bravo Rasa,

Perfectly expressed the real face and objectives of Ruscism.

Russia, the greatest terrorist country of this world, accuses Ukraine
of an  "act of terrorism"  after their destruction of a Russian
ammunition depot in Nova Kakhovka... but they do not stop bombing
civilian and medical facilities in Ukraine. Actually, only the lack of
mental clarity, due to their known alcoholism, and their extreme
wickedness, cruelty and cynicism, makes Russia leaders react in this
way,  as they see how they are not only losing the war but losing
thousands of soldiers and weapons each day, an inconceivable reality
that make them shout like the typical neighborhood thug ,finally
beaten up by the neighbors.

The defeat of Russian fascism by democratic Ukraine will change the
course of history and allow us to get rid of an inhuman form of
country and state.





Remember and don't forget, there is still a genocidal war against the
civilian population of Ukraine that has wiped from the Russian society
any hint of civilization, an ethnic and cultural cleansing carried out
by the inhuman criminal Russian terrorist state.

Slava Ukraini, Slava Heroiam!

Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine: "The Russian people share 
the responsibility for the crimes that Putin is committing."



Iury


El 2022-07-17 10:57, Rasa Smite escribió:

heath

I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of
"jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough
but I don't get your point,

may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war
in Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you
support Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you
accept that Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance,
continuing to use their worst and most cynical war methods against
civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other countries.. (they will
never stop, as they never have enough - not only many experts say so,
but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years in my
life in Russia's occupied Latvia).

there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we
deal with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very
different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because
they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and
chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them,
and make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and
better, while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied
countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call
us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of
my best friends are Russians.


can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?


of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have
accepted Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in
Baltics, never taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes,
Western countries were always shutting us up when our governments gave
the serious warnings in various (especially recent ones) European
meetings.

so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who
have been under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia
as country,

or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the
140 million people there really think..

or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally
experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the
big threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very
different feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor
country) is hosting 40 000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are
delivering jeep cars privately to the Ukraine to help them (while
other pacifistic Western European countries deny or delay their
military support), and we do this because at least 30% by official
statistics believe that we will be next... (sooner or later).

so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support
such as an art residency or writing activist project, supporting
Ukrainian position is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic
act, so much needed, as their hearts and lives are broken no matter if
they have escaped, but they are aware of that in their country Russian
militarists continue to kill and rape...

so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and
their lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now...

any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least 
needed.


Jaanis sent you great sources, you better read them first before
questioning, if they are trustful enough for you.

and last but not least, I also can share my own 'jumbled thoughts' by
referring to Manovich's post in FB, when he said that please consider
that many people (especially young ones) in Russia would prefer 

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[christoph theiler]

Is Ukraine the Ukrainian population?If Ukraine (or the Ukrainian 
population) wants to continue fighting, I am the last to comment on it. 
They will pay a blood roll of around 100-200 deaths a day. And that over 
the next 1-2 years. With or without weapons from the West. I don't think 
the war can be won for Ukraine, in the sense that the Russians are 
thrown out of the Krim and from the Donbass.You, Ryszard have to 
understand that Ukraine not only suffers from Putin's criminal regim, 
but is dependent on the same extent of America and its willingness to 
deliver weapons or willingness to talk.with Putin.


Christoph


Ryszard Kluszczyński schrieb:

Christoph,

you should rather not speak on behalf of Ukraine, it’s quite ridiculous.
You even misspell the name of the Ukrainian region you talk about.
We, citizens of the countries in this part of Europe, too often heard voices 
like yours saying what we should do for our own sake.
In the situation when Finland is part of NATO treaty, the eventual membership 
of Ukraine is not significant anymore.
The war is not about this. And has never been.
And this is not we to end the war. Ukraine wants to do it but the conditions 
must be defined by them, not “us”.
Our countries and we - and you too - just have to help Ukrainiens to get to the 
situation when they could negotiate the peace with Russia.
They need just weapons to get to this point not good advices.
Ukraine is an independent country. Do you remember? And Ukrainiens have the 
right to decide what is good for them.

Take care

Ryszard

…...
Prof. Ryszard W. Kluszczynski, PhD.
Chair of Department of New Media and Digital Culture
University of Lodz
171/173 Pomorska Street
90-236 Lodz
Poland
tel  +426655133




On 17 Jul 2022, at 12:28, christoph theiler  wrote:

Without the Americans there will be no peace in Ukraine.
It may be that the Russian administration lies, you can hardly trust them etc., but the American 
administration is not lying, it refuses to speak to the Russians since Obama. Obama also managed to 
humiliate the Russians as a "provincial state". Biden is not better here either. The last 
American president who spoke to Putin was the "much hated" Trump.
The Russians can not agree to NATO membership of Ukraine, just as the Americans 
cannot agree with Russian weapons in Cuba or the connection of the Solomon 
Islands to China.


So there is at least 3 parties beyond a moral classification in this conflict: the American, the Ukrainian 
and the Russian. The European side is too negligible here, because this is forced to fully integrate the 
American wishes. In the discussion, it is dishonest to ask now: "On which side are you?", Or to 
interture the subintellectual calculation: "Do you really want the Russians to kill even more 
children?" This is not a level. The only question that needs to be solved is: "How and under what 
conditions do we end the war. Or: How and under what objectives or consequences should the war 
continue?" There are really two sides here now. I personally am for a quick war ending; The conditions 
that Ukraine would have to bear here in my opinion would be the constant loss of the Krim, a transition 
status of the Dombas, permanent neutrality of Ukraine.
Anyone who chooses the other option accepts that Ukraine is fighting until it 
is bled. Then there is also peace. This war could take 1-2 years.

Christoph
wechselstrom




Rasa Smite schrieb:

heath

I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of "jumbled 
thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough but I don't get your 
point,

may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war in Ukraine 
started) there are basically only two sides - either you support Ukraine's 
fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you accept that Putin's Russia 
can go on and take the dominance, continuing to use their worst and most 
cynical war methods against civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other 
countries.. (they will never stop, as they never have enough - not only many 
experts say so, but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years 
in my life in Russia's occupied Latvia).

there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we deal with, it's based 
on lies, it always was, and these lies are very different ones than those in your 'bad' 
capitalist countries, because they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and 
chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them, and make other world 
to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and better, while our (other Eastern European, and 
former occupied countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call us 
"rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of my best 
friends are Russians.


can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?

of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have 

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[heath bunting]

rasa

i think its worth drawing a distinction between the soviet union and the 
russian federation both politically and historically


i understand that living next to russia after years of occupation by the 
soviet union is very different to living in the uk


i don't believe russia has any intention to invade latvia unless latvian 
ethnic russians are systematically killed by latvian nazis and nato 
constructs a network of offences bio-war labs along the lv/ru border


its important to not allow our past traumas to be exploited by foreign 
agents


lithuanian seems likely to be the first baltic country to be attacked 
given its very provocative blockade of kalingrad


hope all is well

heath

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022, Rasa Smite wrote:



heath

I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of "jumbled 
thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough but I don't get 
your point,


may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war in 
Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you support 
Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you accept that 
Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance, continuing to use their 
worst and most cynical war methods against civilians in Ukraine - now, and 
later in other countries.. (they will never stop, as they never have enough - 
not only many experts say so, but also my personal experience - of living my 
first 20 years in my life in Russia's occupied Latvia).


there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we deal 
with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very different 
ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because they are really 
dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and chauvinistic, they make other 
nations they occupy lesser than them, and make other world to believe their 
'cultures' are bigger and better, while our (other Eastern European, and 
former occupied countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were 
used to call us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, 
many of my best friends are Russians.



can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?


of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have accepted 
Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in Baltics, never 
taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes, Western countries were 
always shutting us up when our governments gave the serious warnings in 
various (especially recent ones) European meetings.


so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who have been 
under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia as country,


or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the 140 
million people there really think..


or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally 
experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the big 
threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very different 
feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor country) is hosting 40 
000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are delivering jeep cars 
privately to the Ukraine to help them (while other pacifistic Western 
European countries deny or delay their military support), and we do this 
because at least 30% by official statistics believe that we will be next... 
(sooner or later).


so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support such as 
an art residency or writing activist project, supporting Ukrainian position 
is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic act, so much needed, as 
their hearts and lives are broken no matter if they have escaped, but they 
are aware of that in their country Russian militarists continue to kill and 
rape...


so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and their 
lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now...


any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least needed.

Jaanis sent you great sources, you better read them first before questioning, 
if they are trustful enough for you.


and last but not least, I also can share my own 'jumbled thoughts' by 
referring to Manovich's post in FB, when he said that please consider that 
many people (especially young ones) in Russia would prefer to live in your 
"rotten" capitalist system. So am I, as I have experienced both - communist 
and capitalist governments. And here I am largely suspicious about your 
pacifistic ideas, as well as other UK's May 1st Day activist ambivalent 
intents (how I call them - marxists with Porsche): may be you simply don't 
want countries like Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, etc. to share with your 
capitalist "goods" and people achieving just to live their normal lives?


best

Rasa



On 16/07/2022 14:49, heath bunting wrote:

jaanis

thanks for links - will take a look - not hopeful for making
good 

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[christoph theiler]

Without the Americans there will be no peace in Ukraine.
It may be that the Russian administration lies, you can hardly trust 
them etc., but the American administration is not lying, it refuses to 
speak to the Russians since Obama. Obama also managed to humiliate the 
Russians as a "provincial state". Biden is not better here either. The 
last American president who spoke to Putin was the "much hated" Trump.
The Russians can not agree to NATO membership of Ukraine, just as the 
Americans cannot agree with Russian weapons in Cuba or the connection of 
the Solomon Islands to China.



So there is at least 3 parties beyond a moral classification in this 
conflict: the American, the Ukrainian and the Russian. The European side 
is too negligible here, because this is forced to fully integrate the 
American wishes. In the discussion, it is dishonest to ask now: "On 
which side are you?", Or to interture the subintellectual calculation: 
"Do you really want the Russians to kill even more children?" This is 
not a level. The only question that needs to be solved is: "How and 
under what conditions do we end the war. Or: How and under what 
objectives or consequences should the war continue?" There are really 
two sides here now. I personally am for a quick war ending; The 
conditions that Ukraine would have to bear here in my opinion would be 
the constant loss of the Krim, a transition status of the Dombas, 
permanent neutrality of Ukraine.
Anyone who chooses the other option accepts that Ukraine is fighting 
until it is bled. Then there is also peace. This war could take 1-2 years.


Christoph
wechselstrom




Rasa Smite schrieb:


heath

I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of 
"jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough 
but I don't get your point,


may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war 
in Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you 
support Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you 
accept that Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance, 
continuing to use their worst and most cynical war methods against 
civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other countries.. (they will 
never stop, as they never have enough - not only many experts say so, 
but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years in my 
life in Russia's occupied Latvia).


there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we 
deal with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very 
different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because 
they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and 
chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them, 
and make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and 
better, while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied 
countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call 
us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of 
my best friends are Russians.


> can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?

of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have 
accepted Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in 
Baltics, never taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes, 
Western countries were always shutting us up when our governments gave 
the serious warnings in various (especially recent ones) European 
meetings.


so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who 
have been under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia 
as country,


or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the 
140 million people there really think..


or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally 
experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the 
big threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very 
different feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor 
country) is hosting 40 000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are 
delivering jeep cars privately to the Ukraine to help them (while 
other pacifistic Western European countries deny or delay their 
military support), and we do this because at least 30% by official 
statistics believe that we will be next... (sooner or later).


so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support 
such as an art residency or writing activist project, supporting 
Ukrainian position is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic 
act, so much needed, as their hearts and lives are broken no matter if 
they have escaped, but they are aware of that in their country Russian 
militarists continue to kill and rape...


so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and 
their lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now...


any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least 
needed.


Jaanis 

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[Rasa Smite]

heath

I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of 
"jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough but 
I don't get your point,


may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war in 
Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you support 
Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you accept that 
Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance, continuing to use their 
worst and most cynical war methods against civilians in Ukraine - now, 
and later in other countries.. (they will never stop, as they never have 
enough - not only many experts say so, but also my personal experience - 
of living my first 20 years in my life in Russia's occupied Latvia).


there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we deal 
with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very 
different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because 
they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and 
chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them, and 
make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and better, 
while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied countries) voices 
then have always been shut up, you were used to call us "rusophobs", 
which is totally not the case and never was, many of my best friends are 
Russians.


> can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?

of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have 
accepted Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in 
Baltics, never taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes, 
Western countries were always shutting us up when our governments gave 
the serious warnings in various (especially recent ones) European meetings.


so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who have 
been under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia as 
country,


or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the 
140 million people there really think..


or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally 
experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the 
big threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very 
different feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor country) 
is hosting 40 000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are delivering 
jeep cars privately to the Ukraine to help them (while other pacifistic 
Western European countries deny or delay their military support), and we 
do this because at least 30% by official statistics believe that we will 
be next... (sooner or later).


so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support 
such as an art residency or writing activist project, supporting 
Ukrainian position is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic act, 
so much needed, as their hearts and lives are broken no matter if they 
have escaped, but they are aware of that in their country Russian 
militarists continue to kill and rape...


so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and 
their lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now...


any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least needed.

Jaanis sent you great sources, you better read them first before 
questioning, if they are trustful enough for you.


and last but not least, I also can share my own 'jumbled thoughts' by 
referring to Manovich's post in FB, when he said that please consider 
that many people (especially young ones) in Russia would prefer to live 
in your "rotten" capitalist system. So am I, as I have experienced both 
- communist and capitalist governments. And here I am largely suspicious 
about your pacifistic ideas, as well as other UK's May 1st Day activist 
ambivalent intents (how I call them - marxists with Porsche): may be you 
simply don't want countries like Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, etc. to 
share with your capitalist "goods" and people achieving just to live 
their normal lives?


best

Rasa



On 16/07/2022 14:49, heath bunting wrote:

jaanis

thanks for links - will take a look - not hopeful for making
good decision on these though, as it takes years of careful scrutiny
to determine whether sources are reliable and not mouthpieces for 
in-tell agencies


why does russian state propaganda matter to grass roots activists ?

i would have thought super-state propaganda vs sub-state propaganda is 
more relevant


can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?

overwhelming evidence suggestions that unlawful trans-national 
entities such as empires (united state of america empire: USAE) are a 
greater threat to individuals/ humanity than lawfully constituted 
nation states


what's more of a threat to peace ? 1000 foreign USAE military bases or
2 russian foreign military bases ?

hope all is well

heath


On Sat, 16 Jul 2022, 

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[heath bunting]

jaanis

thanks for links - will take a look - not hopeful for making
good decision on these though, as it takes years of careful scrutiny
to determine whether sources are reliable and not mouthpieces for in-tell 
agencies


why does russian state propaganda matter to grass roots activists ?

i would have thought super-state propaganda vs sub-state propaganda is 
more relevant


can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?

overwhelming evidence suggestions that unlawful trans-national entities 
such as empires (united state of america empire: USAE) are a greater 
threat to 
individuals/ humanity than lawfully constituted nation states


what's more of a threat to peace ? 1000 foreign USAE military bases or
2 russian foreign military bases ?

hope all is well

heath


On Sat, 16 Jul 2022, j...@21.x-i.net wrote:

Most of your questions about importance of fighting russian state 
propaganda can be answered by these expert resources:



https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/08/meduza-is-granting-open-access-to-all-content-about-the-war-in-ukraine-under-a-creative-commons-license

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/12/meduza-is-hiring-a-social-media-editor-for-its-english-language-edition

https://theconversation.com/russias-disappearing-independent-media-why-they-closed-178590

https://netzpolitik.org/2020/russian-disinformation-the-network-of-fake-foreign-media/

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-war-in-ukraine-is-about-the-reunification-of-the-russian-people2

The Russian neo-Nazis fighting Vladimir Putin’s war to ‘denazify’ Ukraine
https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/15/dying-to-kill



List of few independent  resources in Russian..

https://www.youtube.com/c/Popularpolitics
https://www.youtube.com/c/NevzorovTV
https://www.youtube.com/c/FeyginLive
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzaqqlriSjVyc795m86GVyg
https://www.youtube.com/c/Gordonua



On 16/07/2022 11:03, heath bunting wrote:

geert


supporting Ukrainian media and confronting Russian state propaganda.


these aims appear to be very aligned to imperial interests

what do you mean by ukrainian media ? state/ corporate or grass roots ?

why is it important to confront russian state propaganda ?

who is at risk of this messaging ?

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[heath bunting]

jaanis


I am curious, how is your command of russian, Heath -


fortunately, i speak the language of the imperium fluently
and live within a core imperial nation state, so have direct
daily experience of super-state crimes against humanity

i am not subjected to state blacklisting for work and social benefits by 
russia, syria, iran or china


i have not been arrested, framed or censored by russian speakers

the language of the enemy is english

best to counter my argument and not my character - assuming you want 
peace and progress instead of war and destruction


are you able to read medium-complex russian text without a computer 
translation, or follow a conversation (or TV interview,discussion) in 
russian - referring to your declared "honest interest in the war in 
ukraine"?


regards

heath
__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[jg]

Most of your questions about importance of fighting russian state 
propaganda can be answered by these expert resources:



https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/08/meduza-is-granting-open-access-to-all-content-about-the-war-in-ukraine-under-a-creative-commons-license

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/12/meduza-is-hiring-a-social-media-editor-for-its-english-language-edition

https://theconversation.com/russias-disappearing-independent-media-why-they-closed-178590

https://netzpolitik.org/2020/russian-disinformation-the-network-of-fake-foreign-media/

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-war-in-ukraine-is-about-the-reunification-of-the-russian-people2

The Russian neo-Nazis fighting Vladimir Putin’s war to ‘denazify’ Ukraine
https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/15/dying-to-kill



List of few independent  resources in Russian..

https://www.youtube.com/c/Popularpolitics
https://www.youtube.com/c/NevzorovTV
https://www.youtube.com/c/FeyginLive
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzaqqlriSjVyc795m86GVyg
https://www.youtube.com/c/Gordonua



On 16/07/2022 11:03, heath bunting wrote:

geert


supporting Ukrainian media and confronting Russian state propaganda.


these aims appear to be very aligned to imperial interests

what do you mean by ukrainian media ? state/ corporate or grass roots ?

why is it important to confront russian state propaganda ?

who is at risk of this messaging ?

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[heath bunting]

geert


supporting Ukrainian media and confronting Russian state propaganda.


these aims appear to be very aligned to imperial interests

what do you mean by ukrainian media ? state/ corporate or grass roots ?

why is it important to confront russian state propaganda ?

who is at risk of this messaging ?

in a plural media environment, propaganda is irrelevant - it only becomes 
potent in an environment of corporate/ state control and censorship - in 
an info-war


so i am assuming you believe peoples in zones of control/ censorship are 
vulnerable to russian state propaganda eg: ukraine and the west


does your project have a wider scope than defending the ukrainian and the 
western imperium control narrative ?


for example, do people in the global south need defending from russian 
state propaganda, or is it just imperial elite requiring defence from 
their awakening domestic populations ?


countering russian state propaganda does not seem to be a priority for
grass roots activists, but certainly is for the western elite

hope all is well

heath
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Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[jg]

I am curious, how is your command of russian, Heath -
are you able to read medium-complex russian text without a computer 
translation, or follow a conversation (or TV interview,discussion) in 
russian - referring to your declared "honest interest in the war in 
ukraine"?


J.

On 16/07/2022 09:25, heath bunting wrote:

geert


sounds a bit like a criminal investigation, heath.


any honest interest in the war in ukraine will sound like a criminal 
investigation as imperialism is a supreme crime against humanity



of a bad or lazy detective, in this case.


i am assuming from your project you are trying to keep violence to a 
minimum - in this case linguistic violence

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Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[heath bunting]

geert


sounds a bit like a criminal investigation, heath.


any honest interest in the war in ukraine will sound like a 
criminal investigation as imperialism is a supreme crime against 
humanity



of a bad or lazy detective, in this case.


i am assuming from your project you are trying to keep violence to a 
minimum - in this case linguistic violence



you could have found out the answers yourself.


i am not content to remain a sole passive silent researcher when provoked 
by messaging seemingly aligned to imperial interests being disseminated

in a progressive cultural forum


who are the funders of this project (any non-aligned countries) ?


since 2004 our INC is part of the Amsterdam University of Applied 
Science, a polytech, called HvA. the production itself does not cost 
money as it is not printed. the labour costs have already been paid. 
however, the faculty did support the tactical media room to pay for a 
coordinator and an intern from the region for three months.


when you say region, do you mean Ukraine ? or are you messaging an 
understanding that this is a proxy war with global participants ?


are ukrainian citizens (not 'shocked' but liberated) from the donbas 
region including in this project ?


we do not ask where they come from.


knowing which side of the civil/ imperial proxy war messaging originates 
from is of great importance



we do not work for the police.


to be clear, which police do you not work for ?

1. dutch civil police

2. dutch military intelligence

3. imperial military intelligence

both editors and contributors are from the region as you can see in the 
biographies.


what is your definition of 'the region' ?

is this interchangeable with 'Ukraine' or does it include NATO territories 
as-well


the meetings of the coalition are visited by both ukrainians and 
russians.


are you talking about russian citizens or ukrainian citizens when you use 
the word 'Russians'


calling ukrainian citizens 'Russians' sounds like an ukrainian 
ultra-nationalist statement


or do you mean russian citizens as-well as other nation state citizens 
visited the meetings ?


is this publication available to russian speaking ukrainian citizens or 
is the russian language banned in his publication as-well as in ukraine 
?


no, not yet.


"About a third of Ukrainians have named Russian as their mother tongue — 
in the last census, in 2001, and in more recent surveys — and the majority 
of Ukrainians say they speak it."


language is important - especially when it is banned by neo-nazis


regards


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Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[Geert Lovink]

sounds a bit like a criminal investigation, heath. of a bad or lazy detective, 
in this case. you could have found out the answers yourself.

> who are the funders of this project (any non-aligned countries) ?

since 2004 our INC is part of the Amsterdam University of Applied Science, a 
polytech, called HvA. the production itself does not cost money as it is not 
printed. the labour costs  have already been paid. however, the faculty did 
support the tactical media room to pay for a coordinator and an intern from the 
region for three months.

> are ukrainian citizens (not 'shocked' but liberated) from the donbas region 
> including in this project ?

we do not ask where they come from. we do not work for the police. both editors 
and contributors are from the region as you can see in the biographies. the 
meetings of the coalition are visited by both ukrainians and russians.

> is this publication available to russian speaking ukrainian citizens or
> is the russian language banned in his publication as-well as in ukraine ?

no, not yet.

yours, geert

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Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[‪xname]

Very good questions!! Sent from the street http://xname.cc Original message From: heath bunting Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2022, 3:21 pmTo: Geert Lovink Cc: spectre Subject: Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responsesgeertwho are the funders of this project (any non-aligned countries) ?are ukrainian citizens (not 'shocked' but liberated) from the donbas region including in this project ?is this publication available to russian speaking ukrainian citizens oris the russian language banned in his publication as-well as in ukraine ?regardsheathOn Fri, 15 Jul 2022, Geert Lovink wrote:> > Theory on Demand #44> Dispatches from Ukraine:> Tactical Media Reflections and Responses> > edited by Maria van der Togt and 1 &23%#719> > This publication marks the first results of the Tactical Media Room Ukraine project, launched in> February 2022 in Amsterdam after the shocking Russian full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Tactical Media> Room is a network of activists, journalists, scholars, and artists linked by the exchange of ideas> and practices—all aimed at supporting Ukrainian media and confronting Russian state propaganda.> Together, the network of experts initiated a screening and a series of meetings that took place> mainly in Amsterdam. Based on these meetings, Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflections and> Responses showcases initiatives, critique, and essays that provide insights into the ways information> circulates in time of war.> > This edition also aims at overcoming the Eurocentric approach through inviting Ukrainian journalists,> artists, and thinkers to share their observations and personal experience of living through war in> the digital age. It allows the collected reflections to be grounded and situated within the certain> context of Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian long-lasting conflicts. While on the one hand,> perspectives on info-war and the array of urgents matters at a distance are presented, on the other> hand, this publication also focuses on what is missing from outside of the war-zones.> > Contributors> Elmaz Asan, Franco ‘Bifo’ Berardi, Andrii Dostliev, Lia Dostlieva, Olexii Kuchanskyi, Karyna Lazaruk,> Geert Lovink, Lera Malchenko, Svitlana Matviyenko, Maria Plichta, Ellen Rutten, Sander Steffann, Marc> Tuters, Michał ‘rysiek’ Woźniak.> > Printed on Demand ISBN: 978-94-92302-86-1> > Contact> > Institute of Network Cultures> Email: i...@networkcultures.org> Web: http://www.networkcultures.org> > Order a copy or download this publication free of charge at http://networkcultures.org/publications.> > This publication is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial- NoDerivatives 4.0> International.> > Order a print copy HERE> Download the .pdf HERE> > > > >__SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep EuropeInfo, archive and help:http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre__
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Re: [spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[heath bunting]

geert

who are the funders of this project (any non-aligned countries) ?

are ukrainian citizens (not 'shocked' but liberated) from the donbas 
region including in this project ?


is this publication available to russian speaking ukrainian citizens or
is the russian language banned in his publication as-well as in ukraine ?

regards

heath


On Fri, 15 Jul 2022, Geert Lovink wrote:



Theory on Demand #44
Dispatches from Ukraine:
Tactical Media Reflections and Responses

edited by Maria van der Togt and 1 &23%#719

This publication marks the first results of the Tactical Media Room Ukraine 
project, launched in
February 2022 in Amsterdam after the shocking Russian full-scale invasion of 
Ukraine. Tactical Media
Room is a network of activists, journalists, scholars, and artists linked by 
the exchange of ideas
and practices—all aimed at supporting Ukrainian media and confronting Russian 
state propaganda.
Together, the network of experts initiated a screening and a series of meetings 
that took place
mainly in Amsterdam. Based on these meetings, Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical 
Media Reflections and
Responses showcases initiatives, critique, and essays that provide insights 
into the ways information
circulates in time of war.

This edition also aims at overcoming the Eurocentric approach through inviting 
Ukrainian journalists,
artists, and thinkers to share their observations and personal experience of 
living through war in
the digital age. It allows the collected reflections to be grounded and 
situated within the certain
context of Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian long-lasting conflicts. While on 
the one hand,
perspectives on info-war and the array of urgents matters at a distance are 
presented, on the other
hand, this publication also focuses on what is missing from outside of the 
war-zones.

Contributors
Elmaz Asan, Franco ‘Bifo’ Berardi, Andrii Dostliev, Lia Dostlieva, Olexii 
Kuchanskyi, Karyna Lazaruk,
Geert Lovink, Lera Malchenko, Svitlana Matviyenko, Maria Plichta, Ellen Rutten, 
Sander Steffann, Marc
Tuters, Michał ‘rysiek’ Woźniak.

Printed on Demand ISBN: 978-94-92302-86-1

Contact

Institute of Network Cultures
Email: i...@networkcultures.org
Web: http://www.networkcultures.org

Order a copy or download this publication free of charge at 
http://networkcultures.org/publications.

This publication is licensed under the Creative Commons 
Attribution-NonCommercial- NoDerivatives 4.0
International.

Order a print copy HERE
Download the .pdf HERE




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[spectre] Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflflections and Responses

[Geert Lovink]

Theory on Demand #44
Dispatches from Ukraine:
Tactical Media Reflections and Responses

edited by Maria van der Togt and 1 &23%#719

This publication marks the first results of the Tactical Media Room Ukraine 
project, launched in February 2022 in Amsterdam after the shocking Russian 
full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Tactical Media Room is a network of activists, 
journalists, scholars, and artists linked by the exchange of ideas and 
practices—all aimed at supporting Ukrainian media and confronting Russian state 
propaganda. Together, the network of experts initiated a screening and a series 
of meetings that took place mainly in Amsterdam. Based on these meetings, 
Dispatches from Ukraine: Tactical Media Reflections and Responses showcases 
initiatives, critique, and essays that provide insights into the ways 
information circulates in time of war.

This edition also aims at overcoming the Eurocentric approach through inviting 
Ukrainian journalists, artists, and thinkers to share their observations and 
personal experience of living through war in the digital age. It allows the 
collected reflections to be grounded and situated within the certain context of 
Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian long-lasting conflicts. While on the one 
hand, perspectives on info-war and the array of urgents matters at a distance 
are presented, on the other hand, this publication also focuses on what is 
missing from outside of the war-zones.

Contributors
Elmaz Asan, Franco ‘Bifo’ Berardi, Andrii Dostliev, Lia Dostlieva, Olexii 
Kuchanskyi, Karyna Lazaruk, Geert Lovink, Lera Malchenko, Svitlana Matviyenko, 
Maria Plichta, Ellen Rutten, Sander Steffann, Marc Tuters, Michał ‘rysiek’ 
Woźniak.

Printed on Demand ISBN: 978-94-92302-86-1

Contact

Institute of Network Cultures
Email: i...@networkcultures.org 
Web: http://www.networkcultures.org 
Order a copy or download this publication free of charge at 
http://networkcultures.org/publications 
.

This publication is licensed under the Creative Commons 
Attribution-NonCommercial- NoDerivatives 4.0 International.

Order a print copy HERE 

Download the .pdf HERE 


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