Re: [EXTERNAL] FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum
Mike, that would be a non-functional fire protection device that has the appearance of functioning as described in 901.4.5 and would be required to be removed as proscribed therein. This DPV though it would no longer operate as a DPV would still function as a fire protection device, allowing water

RE: [EXTERNAL] FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread Michael Hill via Sprinklerforum
While it seems trivial to us who deal with it for a living, imagine the building caught fire and there were fire/smoke/water damages. I bet an insurance company lawyer could convince others that if the existing dry pipe valve was modified, there is no way of telling what else “didn’t meet code”

RE: [EXTERNAL] FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Thanks guys! You’ve answered my question, there is no specific code reference prohibiting it. It will fall back to the local AHJ and local ordinances if it is allowed or not. Thanks, John Paulsen – SET Sprinkler System Design & Sales Silco Fire and Security 2345 Southwest Blvd. Grove City, OH

Re: [EXTERNAL] FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread Bruce Verhei via Sprinklerforum
IFC section was originally to stop installation of security cameras masquerading as smoke detectors. It was written so they wouldn’t have to say ‘& sprinkler heads, & standpipe outlets, & ’ as more products appeared. Might be a stretch to say it applies in this case. 175 psi relief

Re: [EXTERNAL] FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum
Mark, I think that you're referencing 901.4.5 (in the 2012 edition of the IFC) but that is addressing systems that appear to be life safety or fire protection systems but don't function as such. A common example is a camera disguised as a sprinkler head. In John's case it would still function as a

RE: [EXTERNAL] FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread Hinson, Ryan via Sprinklerforum
IFC 2012 Section 901.4.5 Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell Senior Fire Protection Engineer O 952-656-3662 \ M 320-250-5404 \ F 952-229-2923 rhin...@burnsmcd.com \ burnsmcd.com 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300 \

Re: [EXTERNAL] FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum
There is an obscure section in the fire code that essentially says you’re not allowed to have anything in a sprinkler system that doesn’t function as what it appears to be. Anyone know the chapter and verse on this? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:19 PM, John Paulsen via

Re: [EXTERNAL] FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread Don Casey via Sprinklerforum
would removing the clapper void the listing? On Sep 24, 2019, at 3:15 PM, Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum wrote:  Just curious, but wouldn’t it be about the same to just replace the valve with a spool? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:08 PM, John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum

RE: [EXTERNAL] FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Yes, you could do that, but you would have to dismount the DPV. We are trying to determine if removing the clapper and installing a flow switch is a “prohibited” procedure. John Paulsen – SET Sprinkler System Design & Sales Silco Fire and Security 2345 Southwest Blvd. Grove City, OH 43123

Re: [EXTERNAL] FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum
Just curious, but wouldn’t it be about the same to just replace the valve with a spool? Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:08 PM, John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: From: John Paulsen Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 10:06 AM To:

FW: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet

2019-09-24 Thread John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
From: John Paulsen Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 10:06 AM To: Sprinklerforum Subject: Dry Pipe Valve to Wet Good Day Everyone! A question has come up regarding the practice of taking the clapper out of a dry pipe valve in order to convert the system from dry pipe to wet pipe. We have

RE: Sprinklers in lieu of fire rated assemblies

2019-09-24 Thread Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum
They are creating a pocket in the ceiling right above the opening, the width of the opening to act as a “draft curtain”. This is supposed to capture early products of combustion/smoke. The sprinklers at the opening are installed up in this pocket. So you have a ceiling at 10 ft with the

RE: Sprinklers in lieu of fire rated assemblies

2019-09-24 Thread Don Casey via Sprinklerforum
Try searching for this: ‘Measurements of the transmission of radiation through water sprays’ by A. J. M. Heselden and P. L. Hinkley From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019

RE: Sprinklers in lieu of fire rated assemblies

2019-09-24 Thread Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum
The concern I have with heat activated sprinklers is not whether they can contain heat for 2 hours; it is what happens right at the beginning of the fire. A 2 hour barrier will also stop heat at zero hours, but a hole will let fire go right through until the sprinklers activate. If the

RE: Sprinklers in lieu of fire rated assemblies

2019-09-24 Thread Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum
Bill, The EOR has no basis for the design other than “it’s prescribed for vertical openings in NFPA 13 so it should work for horizontal openings.” That’s the beginning and end of their technical analysis. This is an access hallway between an existing building and a new building. People will

RE: Sprinklers in lieu of fire rated assemblies

2019-09-24 Thread Daniel Arnold via Sprinklerforum
Well stated Daniel L. Arnold, P.E., FSFPE Seneca Fire Engineering, LLC 1205 Johnson Ferry Road Suite 136-400 Marietta, GA 30068 darn...@senecafire.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of bill.brooks

RE: Sprinklers in lieu of fire rated assemblies

2019-09-24 Thread bill.brooks brooksfpe.com via Sprinklerforum
Some of the EOR brainstorms we see on this forum are pretty farfetched. This one seems to be based on precedent in current codes and standards. The EOR appears to have created a performance objective which says the heat absorption rate of the water curtain exceeds the likely rate of heat flow

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Sprinklers in lieu of fire rated assemblies

2019-09-24 Thread Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
We used the FM guidelines a few years ago at San Diego airport where luggage conveyors pass through the wall separating the interior from the tub bays outside. Two SSW or nozzles (can’t remember which at the moment, but I think sprinklers because the systems are all wet-pipe), located in the

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Sprinklers in lieu of fire rated assemblies

2019-09-24 Thread Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum
I proposed the FM Global recommendations for this application but it was deemed too complicated. The problem is equivalency. I’ve challenged the EOR to provide documentation that the proposed solution provided the same level of protection as a 2-hr fire door. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group

Re: Sprinklers in lieu of fire rated assemblies

2019-09-24 Thread Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum
I’ve done a few jobs where the conveyors pass through 2 hr walls. They were FM Global jobs where this occurred. FM has some criteria for deluge systems and spray nozzles at the openings. I don’t recall the particular data sheet for FM at this time. But hopefully that can at least get you in

Sprinklers in lieu of fire rated assemblies

2019-09-24 Thread Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum
Looking for documentation speaking to the pros or cons of sprinklers in lieu of a fire rated door assembly. I have a manufacturing facility where there is an overhead monorail system used to move a product from one machining station to another throughout the facility. This system passes