Re: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

[Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum]

I think I'd try to get the building designer to put the UPS into a
dedicated enclosure and use an inerting system.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 10:48 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> So, I'll assume this battery assembly will be in some type of occupiable
> enclosure which will have environmental control.
>
> I would definitely not extend or try to tie it into any existing PreAction
> system.
>
> I would be looking at a stand alone suppression system, either clean agent
> or aerosol depending on the battery chemistry.
>
> I'd also be sure to run my idea past the local fire code official.
>
> Depending on the unknowns, there may be Code requirements for separation
> to adjacent occupied buildings.
>
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection |
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 1:18 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Steve Leyton ; Matt Grise <
> m...@afpsprink.com>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design
>
> No idea, but I'll ask.   Looking for wide-tooth comb here.   Are wet-chem
> systems the "usual" go-to or is it more nuanced than that?
>
> SL
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise
> via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:17 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Matt Grise 
> Subject: Re: Stand-Alone UPS protection design
>
> What is the battery chemistry?
>
>
>
> Matt Grise
> Alliance Fire Protection
> m 913 526 7443
> o 913 888 0647
> f 913 888 0618
>
> Sent from mobile device
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> Date: 1/14/21 12:15 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: "Prahl, Craig/GVL" ,
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Steve Leyton 
> Subject: RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design
>
> I can't tell you the exact dimensions for specifications because it's in
> pre-design.   It's right next to the building, but several hundred feet
> from the existing preaction areas and riser.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Prahl, Craig/GVL [mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:02 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Steve Leyton 
> Subject: RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design
>
> Steve,
>
> Can you provide a better description of this unit?  How far from the
> building will it be located?
>
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection |
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | http://www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 12:58 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Steve Leyton 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stand-Alone UPS protection design
>
> I'm engaged in a conversation with a project team where an Uninterrupted
> Power Supply is being added to a local small-scale broadcast facility (NPR
> affiliate).   The control rooms and studios are already protected by
> preaction and this battery stack is being added outside the building and a
> ways away from the existing preaction areas.   The two candidate designs
> are to extend the preaction or use a pre-engineered wet-chem system and I'd
> love for any and everyone who has experience with this type of hazard to
> chime in on whether there is a preferred or "best" practice.   My feeling
> is that a wet-chem system is the way to go and the most common practice -
> can anyone verify or do I have that wrong.
>
> Fire away please...
>
> Steve L.
>
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
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>
> 
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RE: RV Storage

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

Then Bambi and a wave of animals run out of the conflagration in all 
directions...

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Michael Hill via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 12:36 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Michael Hill 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

It's a shame that full scale fire testing is cost prohibitive. I would really 
like to see what would actually happen with some of the worst case scenarios we 
bring up.

Shielded fire in RV launches a propane tank that hits the full fuel tank in the 
fiberglass boat parked two spaces away. The fire eventually engulfing the fully 
charged Tesla parked between them.


Mike Hill

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Bobby Welch via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 11:08 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Bobby Welch 
Subject: RV Storage

We have a customer who has an existing warehouse with an existing wet system. 
He is wanting to store RV's and boats in the high bays, and have caged storage 
lockers in lower areas.
We are trying to figure out the extent of system upgrades we have to make for 
the system to work. Storage height will not exceed 12'. We thought this would 
be close in line with a parking garage facility, but the storage aspect throws 
it into a gray area considering NFPA has no specific literature referring to 
this type of storage (besides storage lockers).
My question is, does anyone have experience designing systems for this type of 
storage, and if so what were your conclusions? Any advice would help.
Thanks.

Bobby Welch | Sprinkler Systems Designer KOORSEN FIRE & SECURITY
3577 Concorde Rd, Vandalia, OH 45377
P 937.641.8403 | Ext. 0318 | M 937.594.8457
bobby.we...@koorsen.com | 
www.koorsen.com   .
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RE: RV Storage

[Michael Hill via Sprinklerforum]

It's a shame that full scale fire testing is cost prohibitive. I would really 
like to see what would actually happen with some of the worst case scenarios we 
bring up.

Shielded fire in RV launches a propane tank that hits the full fuel tank in the 
fiberglass boat parked two spaces away. The fire eventually engulfing the fully 
charged Tesla parked between them.


Mike Hill

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Bobby Welch via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 11:08 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Bobby Welch 
Subject: RV Storage

We have a customer who has an existing warehouse with an existing wet system. 
He is wanting to store RV's and boats in the high bays, and have caged storage 
lockers in lower areas.
We are trying to figure out the extent of system upgrades we have to make for 
the system to work. Storage height will not exceed 12'. We thought this would 
be close in line with a parking garage facility, but the storage aspect throws 
it into a gray area considering NFPA has no specific literature referring to 
this type of storage (besides storage lockers).
My question is, does anyone have experience designing systems for this type of 
storage, and if so what were your conclusions? Any advice would help.
Thanks.

Bobby Welch | Sprinkler Systems Designer KOORSEN FIRE & SECURITY
3577 Concorde Rd, Vandalia, OH 45377
P 937.641.8403 | Ext. 0318 | M 937.594.8457
bobby.we...@koorsen.com | 
www.koorsen.com   .
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
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Re: RV Storage

[321 via Sprinklerforum]

At the end of the day I think you are going to end up with what ever your AHJ 
will live with based on available water supply. This is a tricky one and really 
needs a FPE to look at it.
 
Regards,

John Farabee| Certified Lower Keys Plumbing Inc. FireProtection | O: 
305-296-5959 | F: 305-294-2462 Mobile561-707-5150

 

1014 White Street Key West, FL 33040 | j...@clkp.com | www.clkp.com

 



 

On Thursday, January 14, 2021, 03:06:19 PM EST, Matthew J Willis via 
Sprinklerforum  wrote:  
 
 SL- "Cars have combustible upholstery and tanks of explosive flammable liquid, 
yet we park them side-by-side in 9'-0" wide spaces over 100' above fire 
department access in buildings WITHOUT sprinklers"



This is true.

But last I checked, cars were not built from kiln dried 2" nominal or less 
members. Plus the lines are metal for the fluids until the end small rubber 
parts that connect to the tank or carburetor.
Don't even get me started on the crappy sub flooring in most models...

Having battled both car and mobile home fires, I would take the car hands down.

The propane tanks are really much better today that previous. For sure. 
However, given the low elevation and location of many of them, flame could very 
easily be above liquid level.
The overhead cooling from an EH discharge should prevent the tank wall from 
heat failure, but shielding does come into play once again.

Many models have a really nice battery in a flimsy box on a metal frame. 
Normally located right behind the tanks.

I know I am speaking in worst case. Kinda goes with our territory. 

EH II should work. But like I said, it just makes me nervous if there are 
several of these side by side.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Matthew J Willis 

Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: RV Storage

I think there's a substantial hazard yes, but this use isn't the end of days. 

Cars have combustible upholstery and tanks of explosive flammable liquid, yet 
we park them side-by-side in 9'-0" wide spaces over 100' above fire department 
access in buildings WITHOUT sprinklers.  An RV or mobile home manufacturing 
facility is a prescriptive EH2 and there are countless sources of ignition, 
hazardous fuel loads and dust; parked RV's have liquid fuel, propane and 
shielded fire loads but distinctly lack discernible potential causes if they 
are run responsibly.    Consumer propane tanks are extremely safe and designed 
to survive crashes and fires; a worst case scenario could be catastrophic for 
sure, but how many things have to go really wrong to realize that worst case?  
We've not been reading for years about the widespread rate of conflagrations in 
sprinklered (on-floor) RV and boat storage facilities.

A fire burning within an RV is probably the worst case scenario because it's 
shielded and has a change to grow.  But once it breaches the shell, it will 
cause the sprinkler system to operate, which should control the fire with 4-6 
sprinklers operating at a .80-1.0 gpm ADD.  

Steve L.



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 8:14 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matthew J Willis 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

As someone who lives in a "travel trailer" full time, I would be nervous with 
EH II.

More than likely, all tanks will be drained. ALL of these tanks are made of, 
plastic.

The styrene nature of the furniture etc, also comes into play.

We must also remember, if they are storing the RV, chances are it has become a 
storage unit itself.
Who knows what piled to the ceiling in areas.

The propane really should be removed if storing. Just like gas tanks need to be 
empty or full for boats.
We all know the answer to that question...

Clear comms and documentation as always will be best practice for this.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 3:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Paulsen 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

Guys,

If you don't own a boat or RV, it's hard to imagine the fire load these units 
can represent. Campers especially pose the situation of an internal fire 
becoming well developed before it breaks through the roof and the sprinklers 
get a chance to attack it. Oh, and don't forget to add in the explosion hazard 
of the propane tanks most campers have. Runabouts, waverunners and cruisers all 
have the potential to have large amount of plastics, gasoline and lubricants on 
board. I've personally stored boats for the winter inside a building with 80 
gallons of 100 octane gas in the tank and there were 30 other boats of various 
sizes right next to mine with the same or greater fuel capacity. Some 

RE: RV Storage

[Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum]

SL- "Cars have combustible upholstery and tanks of explosive flammable liquid, 
yet we park them side-by-side in 9'-0" wide spaces over 100' above fire 
department access in buildings WITHOUT sprinklers"



This is true.

But last I checked, cars were not built from kiln dried 2" nominal or less 
members. Plus the lines are metal for the fluids until the end small rubber 
parts that connect to the tank or carburetor.
Don't even get me started on the crappy sub flooring in most models...

Having battled both car and mobile home fires, I would take the car hands down.

The propane tanks are really much better today that previous. For sure. 
However, given the low elevation and location of many of them, flame could very 
easily be above liquid level.
The overhead cooling from an EH discharge should prevent the tank wall from 
heat failure, but shielding does come into play once again.

Many models have a really nice battery in a flimsy box on a metal frame. 
Normally located right behind the tanks.

I know I am speaking in worst case. Kinda goes with our territory. 

EH II should work. But like I said, it just makes me nervous if there are 
several of these side by side.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Matthew J Willis 

Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: RV Storage

I think there's a substantial hazard yes, but this use isn't the end of days. 

Cars have combustible upholstery and tanks of explosive flammable liquid, yet 
we park them side-by-side in 9'-0" wide spaces over 100' above fire department 
access in buildings WITHOUT sprinklers.   An RV or mobile home manufacturing 
facility is a prescriptive EH2 and there are countless sources of ignition, 
hazardous fuel loads and dust; parked RV's have liquid fuel, propane and 
shielded fire loads but distinctly lack discernible potential causes if they 
are run responsibly.Consumer propane tanks are extremely safe and designed 
to survive crashes and fires; a worst case scenario could be catastrophic for 
sure, but how many things have to go really wrong to realize that worst case?   
We've not been reading for years about the widespread rate of conflagrations in 
sprinklered (on-floor) RV and boat storage facilities.

A fire burning within an RV is probably the worst case scenario because it's 
shielded and has a change to grow.   But once it breaches the shell, it will 
cause the sprinkler system to operate, which should control the fire with 4-6 
sprinklers operating at a .80-1.0 gpm ADD.   

Steve L.



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 8:14 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matthew J Willis 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

As someone who lives in a "travel trailer" full time, I would be nervous with 
EH II.

More than likely, all tanks will be drained. ALL of these tanks are made of, 
plastic.

The styrene nature of the furniture etc, also comes into play.

We must also remember, if they are storing the RV, chances are it has become a 
storage unit itself.
Who knows what piled to the ceiling in areas.

The propane really should be removed if storing. Just like gas tanks need to be 
empty or full for boats.
We all know the answer to that question...

Clear comms and documentation as always will be best practice for this.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 3:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Paulsen 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

Guys,

If you don't own a boat or RV, it's hard to imagine the fire load these units 
can represent. Campers especially pose the situation of an internal fire 
becoming well developed before it breaks through the roof and the sprinklers 
get a chance to attack it. Oh, and don't forget to add in the explosion hazard 
of the propane tanks most campers have. Runabouts, waverunners and cruisers all 
have the potential to have large amount of plastics, gasoline and lubricants on 
board. I've personally stored boats for the winter inside a building with 80 
gallons of 100 octane gas in the tank and there were 30 other boats of various 
sizes right next to mine with the same or greater fuel capacity. Some storage 
venues ask that you drain your tanks before you bring it in, but I have never 
seen anyone check for compliance. 

Some of the recent marina fires that have occurred in Alabama and Michigan show 
how devastating a fire can be in situations with multiple boats and RV's stored 
under the same roof. 

EH II at a minimum gives the best chance of saving at least part of the 
building and a high K factor CMHD or ESFR head would not be out of the 
question. 

MHO,

John Paulsen – SET

RE: RV Storage

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

I'm familiar with that one too.   Unsprinklered building, cause was never 
determined but it was an older facility, I believe. I think they had to 
scrape 75 melted boats off the foundation to save it...

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:41 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Paulsen 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

Ok, look at the fire in Monroe County Michigan in December at the Toledo Beach 
MarinaThat's closer to this application. They WERE able to save most of the 
foundation.

John Paulsen – SET
Sprinkler System Design & Sales
Silco Fire and Security
2345 Southwest Blvd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P-614-449-2101 Ext. 3367
F-614-449-2007
C-614-348-8206



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 1:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Mark.Phelps 

Subject: RE: RV Storage

A dockside fire event is NOT comparable to a sprinklered indoor RV and 
trailered boat storage facility.  This fire does underscore the insane amount 
of potential energy in boat hulls but trailered boats on trailers that are 
exposed to the ceiling complement are much better protected than boats burning 
unchecked.

I spoke with Scottsboro Fire Chief Necklaus after this fire and there were 
extraordinary mitigating circumstances at this event, not the least of which 
was their water supply consisted of a 2½" wharf head on a 4" dead-end main with 
about 40 PSI of residual pressure at the port.I was seeking his input for 
recommendations on marina standpipe standards, and what resources he didn't 
have that he could have used.   This fire was a total disaster from start to 
finish.

SL


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Mark.Phelps 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

https://www.gadsdentimes.com/news/20200415/scottsboro-dock-fire-that-killed-8-ruled-accidental

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Matthew J Willis 

Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: RV Storage

I think there's a substantial hazard yes, but this use isn't the end of days. 

Cars have combustible upholstery and tanks of explosive flammable liquid, yet 
we park them side-by-side in 9'-0" wide spaces over 100' above fire department 
access in buildings WITHOUT sprinklers.   An RV or mobile home manufacturing 
facility is a prescriptive EH2 and there are countless sources of ignition, 
hazardous fuel loads and dust; parked RV's have liquid fuel, propane and 
shielded fire loads but distinctly lack discernible potential causes if they 
are run responsibly.Consumer propane tanks are extremely safe and designed 
to survive crashes and fires; a worst case scenario could be catastrophic for 
sure, but how many things have to go really wrong to realize that worst case?   
We've not been reading for years about the widespread rate of conflagrations in 
sprinklered (on-floor) RV and boat storage facilities.

A fire burning within an RV is probably the worst case scenario because it's 
shielded and has a change to grow.   But once it breaches the shell, it will 
cause the sprinkler system to operate, which should control the fire with 4-6 
sprinklers operating at a .80-1.0 gpm ADD.   

Steve L.



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 8:14 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matthew J Willis 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

As someone who lives in a "travel trailer" full time, I would be nervous with 
EH II.

More than likely, all tanks will be drained. ALL of these tanks are made of, 
plastic.

The styrene nature of the furniture etc, also comes into play.

We must also remember, if they are storing the RV, chances are it has become a 
storage unit itself.
Who knows what piled to the ceiling in areas.

The propane really should be removed if storing. Just like gas tanks need to be 
empty or full for boats.
We all know the answer to that question...

Clear comms and documentation as always will be best practice for this.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 3:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Paulsen 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

Guys,

If you don't own a boat or RV, it's hard to imagine the fire load these units 
can represent. Campers especially pose the situation of an 

RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

So, I'll assume this battery assembly will be in some type of occupiable 
enclosure which will have environmental control.

I would definitely not extend or try to tie it into any existing PreAction 
system.

I would be looking at a stand alone suppression system, either clean agent or 
aerosol depending on the battery chemistry.

I'd also be sure to run my idea past the local fire code official.

Depending on the unknowns, there may be Code requirements for separation to 
adjacent occupied buildings.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 1:18 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Matt Grise 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

No idea, but I'll ask.   Looking for wide-tooth comb here.   Are wet-chem 
systems the "usual" go-to or is it more nuanced than that?

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:17 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matt Grise 
Subject: Re: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

What is the battery chemistry?



Matt Grise
Alliance Fire Protection
m 913 526 7443
o 913 888 0647
f 913 888 0618

Sent from mobile device


 Original message 
From: Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum 
Date: 1/14/21 12:15 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: "Prahl, Craig/GVL" , 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

I can't tell you the exact dimensions for specifications because it's in 
pre-design.   It's right next to the building, but several hundred feet from 
the existing preaction areas and riser.

-Original Message-
From: Prahl, Craig/GVL [mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:02 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

Steve,

Can you provide a better description of this unit?  How far from the building 
will it be located?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | http://www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 12:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stand-Alone UPS protection design

I'm engaged in a conversation with a project team where an Uninterrupted Power 
Supply is being added to a local small-scale broadcast facility (NPR 
affiliate).   The control rooms and studios are already protected by preaction 
and this battery stack is being added outside the building and a ways away from 
the existing preaction areas.   The two candidate designs are to extend the 
preaction or use a pre-engineered wet-chem system and I'd love for any and 
everyone who has experience with this type of hazard to chime in on whether 
there is a preferred or "best" practice.   My feeling is that a wet-chem system 
is the way to go and the most common practice - can anyone verify or do I have 
that wrong.

Fire away please...

Steve L.


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RE: RV Storage

[John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum]

Ok, look at the fire in Monroe County Michigan in December at the Toledo Beach 
MarinaThat's closer to this application. They WERE able to save most of the 
foundation.

John Paulsen – SET
Sprinkler System Design & Sales
Silco Fire and Security
2345 Southwest Blvd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P-614-449-2101 Ext. 3367
F-614-449-2007
C-614-348-8206



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 1:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Mark.Phelps 

Subject: RE: RV Storage

A dockside fire event is NOT comparable to a sprinklered indoor RV and 
trailered boat storage facility.  This fire does underscore the insane amount 
of potential energy in boat hulls but trailered boats on trailers that are 
exposed to the ceiling complement are much better protected than boats burning 
unchecked.

I spoke with Scottsboro Fire Chief Necklaus after this fire and there were 
extraordinary mitigating circumstances at this event, not the least of which 
was their water supply consisted of a 2½" wharf head on a 4" dead-end main with 
about 40 PSI of residual pressure at the port.I was seeking his input for 
recommendations on marina standpipe standards, and what resources he didn't 
have that he could have used.   This fire was a total disaster from start to 
finish.

SL


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Mark.Phelps 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

https://www.gadsdentimes.com/news/20200415/scottsboro-dock-fire-that-killed-8-ruled-accidental

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Matthew J Willis 

Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: RV Storage

I think there's a substantial hazard yes, but this use isn't the end of days. 

Cars have combustible upholstery and tanks of explosive flammable liquid, yet 
we park them side-by-side in 9'-0" wide spaces over 100' above fire department 
access in buildings WITHOUT sprinklers.   An RV or mobile home manufacturing 
facility is a prescriptive EH2 and there are countless sources of ignition, 
hazardous fuel loads and dust; parked RV's have liquid fuel, propane and 
shielded fire loads but distinctly lack discernible potential causes if they 
are run responsibly.Consumer propane tanks are extremely safe and designed 
to survive crashes and fires; a worst case scenario could be catastrophic for 
sure, but how many things have to go really wrong to realize that worst case?   
We've not been reading for years about the widespread rate of conflagrations in 
sprinklered (on-floor) RV and boat storage facilities.

A fire burning within an RV is probably the worst case scenario because it's 
shielded and has a change to grow.   But once it breaches the shell, it will 
cause the sprinkler system to operate, which should control the fire with 4-6 
sprinklers operating at a .80-1.0 gpm ADD.   

Steve L.



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 8:14 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matthew J Willis 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

As someone who lives in a "travel trailer" full time, I would be nervous with 
EH II.

More than likely, all tanks will be drained. ALL of these tanks are made of, 
plastic.

The styrene nature of the furniture etc, also comes into play.

We must also remember, if they are storing the RV, chances are it has become a 
storage unit itself.
Who knows what piled to the ceiling in areas.

The propane really should be removed if storing. Just like gas tanks need to be 
empty or full for boats.
We all know the answer to that question...

Clear comms and documentation as always will be best practice for this.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 3:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Paulsen 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

Guys,

If you don't own a boat or RV, it's hard to imagine the fire load these units 
can represent. Campers especially pose the situation of an internal fire 
becoming well developed before it breaks through the roof and the sprinklers 
get a chance to attack it. Oh, and don't forget to add in the explosion hazard 
of the propane tanks most campers have. Runabouts, waverunners and cruisers all 
have the potential to have large amount of plastics, gasoline and lubricants on 
board. I've personally stored boats for the winter inside a building with 80 
gallons of 100 octane gas in the tank and there were 30 other boats of various 

RE: RV Storage

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

A dockside fire event is NOT comparable to a sprinklered indoor RV and 
trailered boat storage facility.  This fire does underscore the insane amount 
of potential energy in boat hulls but trailered boats on trailers that are 
exposed to the ceiling complement are much better protected than boats burning 
unchecked.

I spoke with Scottsboro Fire Chief Necklaus after this fire and there were 
extraordinary mitigating circumstances at this event, not the least of which 
was their water supply consisted of a 2½" wharf head on a 4" dead-end main with 
about 40 PSI of residual pressure at the port.I was seeking his input for 
recommendations on marina standpipe standards, and what resources he didn't 
have that he could have used.   This fire was a total disaster from start to 
finish.

SL


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:31 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Mark.Phelps 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

https://www.gadsdentimes.com/news/20200415/scottsboro-dock-fire-that-killed-8-ruled-accidental

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Matthew J Willis 

Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: RV Storage

I think there's a substantial hazard yes, but this use isn't the end of days. 

Cars have combustible upholstery and tanks of explosive flammable liquid, yet 
we park them side-by-side in 9'-0" wide spaces over 100' above fire department 
access in buildings WITHOUT sprinklers.   An RV or mobile home manufacturing 
facility is a prescriptive EH2 and there are countless sources of ignition, 
hazardous fuel loads and dust; parked RV's have liquid fuel, propane and 
shielded fire loads but distinctly lack discernible potential causes if they 
are run responsibly.Consumer propane tanks are extremely safe and designed 
to survive crashes and fires; a worst case scenario could be catastrophic for 
sure, but how many things have to go really wrong to realize that worst case?   
We've not been reading for years about the widespread rate of conflagrations in 
sprinklered (on-floor) RV and boat storage facilities.

A fire burning within an RV is probably the worst case scenario because it's 
shielded and has a change to grow.   But once it breaches the shell, it will 
cause the sprinkler system to operate, which should control the fire with 4-6 
sprinklers operating at a .80-1.0 gpm ADD.   

Steve L.



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 8:14 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matthew J Willis 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

As someone who lives in a "travel trailer" full time, I would be nervous with 
EH II.

More than likely, all tanks will be drained. ALL of these tanks are made of, 
plastic.

The styrene nature of the furniture etc, also comes into play.

We must also remember, if they are storing the RV, chances are it has become a 
storage unit itself.
Who knows what piled to the ceiling in areas.

The propane really should be removed if storing. Just like gas tanks need to be 
empty or full for boats.
We all know the answer to that question...

Clear comms and documentation as always will be best practice for this.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 3:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Paulsen 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

Guys,

If you don't own a boat or RV, it's hard to imagine the fire load these units 
can represent. Campers especially pose the situation of an internal fire 
becoming well developed before it breaks through the roof and the sprinklers 
get a chance to attack it. Oh, and don't forget to add in the explosion hazard 
of the propane tanks most campers have. Runabouts, waverunners and cruisers all 
have the potential to have large amount of plastics, gasoline and lubricants on 
board. I've personally stored boats for the winter inside a building with 80 
gallons of 100 octane gas in the tank and there were 30 other boats of various 
sizes right next to mine with the same or greater fuel capacity. Some storage 
venues ask that you drain your tanks before you bring it in, but I have never 
seen anyone check for compliance. 

Some of the recent marina fires that have occurred in Alabama and Michigan show 
how devastating a fire can be in situations with multiple boats and RV's stored 
under the same roof. 

EH II at a minimum gives the best chance of saving at least part of the 
building and a high K factor CMHD or ESFR head would not be out of the 
question. 

MHO,

John Paulsen – SET
Sprinkler System Design & 

RE: RV Storage

[Mark.Phelps via Sprinklerforum]

https://www.gadsdentimes.com/news/20200415/scottsboro-dock-fire-that-killed-8-ruled-accidental

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Matthew J Willis 

Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: RV Storage

I think there's a substantial hazard yes, but this use isn't the end of days. 

Cars have combustible upholstery and tanks of explosive flammable liquid, yet 
we park them side-by-side in 9'-0" wide spaces over 100' above fire department 
access in buildings WITHOUT sprinklers.   An RV or mobile home manufacturing 
facility is a prescriptive EH2 and there are countless sources of ignition, 
hazardous fuel loads and dust; parked RV's have liquid fuel, propane and 
shielded fire loads but distinctly lack discernible potential causes if they 
are run responsibly.Consumer propane tanks are extremely safe and designed 
to survive crashes and fires; a worst case scenario could be catastrophic for 
sure, but how many things have to go really wrong to realize that worst case?   
We've not been reading for years about the widespread rate of conflagrations in 
sprinklered (on-floor) RV and boat storage facilities.

A fire burning within an RV is probably the worst case scenario because it's 
shielded and has a change to grow.   But once it breaches the shell, it will 
cause the sprinkler system to operate, which should control the fire with 4-6 
sprinklers operating at a .80-1.0 gpm ADD.   

Steve L.



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 8:14 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matthew J Willis 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

As someone who lives in a "travel trailer" full time, I would be nervous with 
EH II.

More than likely, all tanks will be drained. ALL of these tanks are made of, 
plastic.

The styrene nature of the furniture etc, also comes into play.

We must also remember, if they are storing the RV, chances are it has become a 
storage unit itself.
Who knows what piled to the ceiling in areas.

The propane really should be removed if storing. Just like gas tanks need to be 
empty or full for boats.
We all know the answer to that question...

Clear comms and documentation as always will be best practice for this.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 3:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Paulsen 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

Guys,

If you don't own a boat or RV, it's hard to imagine the fire load these units 
can represent. Campers especially pose the situation of an internal fire 
becoming well developed before it breaks through the roof and the sprinklers 
get a chance to attack it. Oh, and don't forget to add in the explosion hazard 
of the propane tanks most campers have. Runabouts, waverunners and cruisers all 
have the potential to have large amount of plastics, gasoline and lubricants on 
board. I've personally stored boats for the winter inside a building with 80 
gallons of 100 octane gas in the tank and there were 30 other boats of various 
sizes right next to mine with the same or greater fuel capacity. Some storage 
venues ask that you drain your tanks before you bring it in, but I have never 
seen anyone check for compliance. 

Some of the recent marina fires that have occurred in Alabama and Michigan show 
how devastating a fire can be in situations with multiple boats and RV's stored 
under the same roof. 

EH II at a minimum gives the best chance of saving at least part of the 
building and a high K factor CMHD or ESFR head would not be out of the 
question. 

MHO,

John Paulsen – SET
Sprinkler System Design & Sales
Silco Fire and Security
2345 Southwest Blvd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P-614-449-2101 Ext. 3367
F-614-449-2007
C-614-348-8206




-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 4:48 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: Re: RV Storage

My suggestions:


   - RV Storage Building* - Extra Hazard Group 2*
   - Boat Storage Building (just parked, not on racks) *- Extra Hazard
   Group 2*
   - Storage lockers with height less than 12 feet *- Depends on what is
   being stored.  For example, Group A plastics might be more demanding.
   Follow miscellaneous storage chart in NFPA 13.*

Hope this helps

*The above is my personal opinion as a professional engineer.  It has not been 
processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations 
Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied 
upon, as the official position of the NFPA.*

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and 

RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

No idea, but I'll ask.   Looking for wide-tooth comb here.   Are wet-chem 
systems the "usual" go-to or is it more nuanced than that?

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:17 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matt Grise 
Subject: Re: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

What is the battery chemistry?



Matt Grise
Alliance Fire Protection
m 913 526 7443
o 913 888 0647
f 913 888 0618

Sent from mobile device


 Original message 
From: Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum 
Date: 1/14/21 12:15 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: "Prahl, Craig/GVL" , 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

I can't tell you the exact dimensions for specifications because it's in 
pre-design.   It's right next to the building, but several hundred feet from 
the existing preaction areas and riser.

-Original Message-
From: Prahl, Craig/GVL [mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:02 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

Steve,

Can you provide a better description of this unit?  How far from the building 
will it be located?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 12:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stand-Alone UPS protection design

I'm engaged in a conversation with a project team where an Uninterrupted Power 
Supply is being added to a local small-scale broadcast facility (NPR 
affiliate).   The control rooms and studios are already protected by preaction 
and this battery stack is being added outside the building and a ways away from 
the existing preaction areas.   The two candidate designs are to extend the 
preaction or use a pre-engineered wet-chem system and I'd love for any and 
everyone who has experience with this type of hazard to chime in on whether 
there is a preferred or "best" practice.   My feeling is that a wet-chem system 
is the way to go and the most common practice - can anyone verify or do I have 
that wrong.

Fire away please...

Steve L.


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NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information 
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distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is 
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us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
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Re: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

[Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum]

What is the battery chemistry?



Matt Grise
Alliance Fire Protection
m 913 526 7443
o 913 888 0647
f 913 888 0618

Sent from mobile device


 Original message 
From: Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum 
Date: 1/14/21 12:15 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: "Prahl, Craig/GVL" , 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

I can't tell you the exact dimensions for specifications because it's in 
pre-design.   It's right next to the building, but several hundred feet from 
the existing preaction areas and riser.

-Original Message-
From: Prahl, Craig/GVL [mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:02 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

Steve,

Can you provide a better description of this unit?  How far from the building 
will it be located?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 12:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stand-Alone UPS protection design

I'm engaged in a conversation with a project team where an Uninterrupted Power 
Supply is being added to a local small-scale broadcast facility (NPR 
affiliate).   The control rooms and studios are already protected by preaction 
and this battery stack is being added outside the building and a ways away from 
the existing preaction areas.   The two candidate designs are to extend the 
preaction or use a pre-engineered wet-chem system and I'd love for any and 
everyone who has experience with this type of hazard to chime in on whether 
there is a preferred or "best" practice.   My feeling is that a wet-chem system 
is the way to go and the most common practice - can anyone verify or do I have 
that wrong.

Fire away please...

Steve L.


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NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information 
that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or 
distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify 
us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
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RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

I can't tell you the exact dimensions for specifications because it's in 
pre-design.   It's right next to the building, but several hundred feet from 
the existing preaction areas and riser.

-Original Message-
From: Prahl, Craig/GVL [mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 10:02 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

Steve,

Can you provide a better description of this unit?  How far from the building 
will it be located?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 12:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stand-Alone UPS protection design

I'm engaged in a conversation with a project team where an Uninterrupted Power 
Supply is being added to a local small-scale broadcast facility (NPR 
affiliate).   The control rooms and studios are already protected by preaction 
and this battery stack is being added outside the building and a ways away from 
the existing preaction areas.   The two candidate designs are to extend the 
preaction or use a pre-engineered wet-chem system and I'd love for any and 
everyone who has experience with this type of hazard to chime in on whether 
there is a preferred or "best" practice.   My feeling is that a wet-chem system 
is the way to go and the most common practice - can anyone verify or do I have 
that wrong.

Fire away please...

Steve L.


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RE: Stand-Alone UPS protection design

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

Steve,

Can you provide a better description of this unit?  How far from the building 
will it be located?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 12:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stand-Alone UPS protection design

I'm engaged in a conversation with a project team where an Uninterrupted Power 
Supply is being added to a local small-scale broadcast facility (NPR 
affiliate).   The control rooms and studios are already protected by preaction 
and this battery stack is being added outside the building and a ways away from 
the existing preaction areas.   The two candidate designs are to extend the 
preaction or use a pre-engineered wet-chem system and I'd love for any and 
everyone who has experience with this type of hazard to chime in on whether 
there is a preferred or "best" practice.   My feeling is that a wet-chem system 
is the way to go and the most common practice - can anyone verify or do I have 
that wrong.

Fire away please...

Steve L.


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Stand-Alone UPS protection design

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

I'm engaged in a conversation with a project team where an Uninterrupted Power 
Supply is being added to a local small-scale broadcast facility (NPR 
affiliate).   The control rooms and studios are already protected by preaction 
and this battery stack is being added outside the building and a ways away from 
the existing preaction areas.   The two candidate designs are to extend the 
preaction or use a pre-engineered wet-chem system and I'd love for any and 
everyone who has experience with this type of hazard to chime in on whether 
there is a preferred or "best" practice.   My feeling is that a wet-chem system 
is the way to go and the most common practice - can anyone verify or do I have 
that wrong.

Fire away please...

Steve L.


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RE: RV Storage

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

I think there's a substantial hazard yes, but this use isn't the end of days. 

Cars have combustible upholstery and tanks of explosive flammable liquid, yet 
we park them side-by-side in 9'-0" wide spaces over 100' above fire department 
access in buildings WITHOUT sprinklers.   An RV or mobile home manufacturing 
facility is a prescriptive EH2 and there are countless sources of ignition, 
hazardous fuel loads and dust; parked RV's have liquid fuel, propane and 
shielded fire loads but distinctly lack discernible potential causes if they 
are run responsibly.Consumer propane tanks are extremely safe and designed 
to survive crashes and fires; a worst case scenario could be catastrophic for 
sure, but how many things have to go really wrong to realize that worst case?   
We've not been reading for years about the widespread rate of conflagrations in 
sprinklered (on-floor) RV and boat storage facilities.

A fire burning within an RV is probably the worst case scenario because it's 
shielded and has a change to grow.   But once it breaches the shell, it will 
cause the sprinkler system to operate, which should control the fire with 4-6 
sprinklers operating at a .80-1.0 gpm ADD.   

Steve L.



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 8:14 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matthew J Willis 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

As someone who lives in a "travel trailer" full time, I would be nervous with 
EH II.

More than likely, all tanks will be drained. ALL of these tanks are made of, 
plastic.

The styrene nature of the furniture etc, also comes into play.

We must also remember, if they are storing the RV, chances are it has become a 
storage unit itself.
Who knows what piled to the ceiling in areas.

The propane really should be removed if storing. Just like gas tanks need to be 
empty or full for boats.
We all know the answer to that question...

Clear comms and documentation as always will be best practice for this.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 3:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Paulsen 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

Guys,

If you don't own a boat or RV, it's hard to imagine the fire load these units 
can represent. Campers especially pose the situation of an internal fire 
becoming well developed before it breaks through the roof and the sprinklers 
get a chance to attack it. Oh, and don't forget to add in the explosion hazard 
of the propane tanks most campers have. Runabouts, waverunners and cruisers all 
have the potential to have large amount of plastics, gasoline and lubricants on 
board. I've personally stored boats for the winter inside a building with 80 
gallons of 100 octane gas in the tank and there were 30 other boats of various 
sizes right next to mine with the same or greater fuel capacity. Some storage 
venues ask that you drain your tanks before you bring it in, but I have never 
seen anyone check for compliance. 

Some of the recent marina fires that have occurred in Alabama and Michigan show 
how devastating a fire can be in situations with multiple boats and RV's stored 
under the same roof. 

EH II at a minimum gives the best chance of saving at least part of the 
building and a high K factor CMHD or ESFR head would not be out of the 
question. 

MHO,

John Paulsen – SET
Sprinkler System Design & Sales
Silco Fire and Security
2345 Southwest Blvd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P-614-449-2101 Ext. 3367
F-614-449-2007
C-614-348-8206




-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 4:48 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: Re: RV Storage

My suggestions:


   - RV Storage Building* - Extra Hazard Group 2*
   - Boat Storage Building (just parked, not on racks) *- Extra Hazard
   Group 2*
   - Storage lockers with height less than 12 feet *- Depends on what is
   being stored.  For example, Group A plastics might be more demanding.
   Follow miscellaneous storage chart in NFPA 13.*

Hope this helps

*The above is my personal opinion as a professional engineer.  It has not been 
processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations 
Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied 
upon, as the official position of the NFPA.*

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org



   

*Our 

RE: RV Storage

[Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum]

As someone who lives in a "travel trailer" full time, I would be nervous with 
EH II.

More than likely, all tanks will be drained. ALL of these tanks are made of, 
plastic.

The styrene nature of the furniture etc, also comes into play.

We must also remember, if they are storing the RV, chances are it has become a 
storage unit itself.
Who knows what piled to the ceiling in areas.

The propane really should be removed if storing. Just like gas tanks need to be 
empty or full for boats.
We all know the answer to that question...

Clear comms and documentation as always will be best practice for this.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Paulsen via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 3:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Paulsen 
Subject: RE: RV Storage

Guys,

If you don't own a boat or RV, it's hard to imagine the fire load these units 
can represent. Campers especially pose the situation of an internal fire 
becoming well developed before it breaks through the roof and the sprinklers 
get a chance to attack it. Oh, and don't forget to add in the explosion hazard 
of the propane tanks most campers have. Runabouts, waverunners and cruisers all 
have the potential to have large amount of plastics, gasoline and lubricants on 
board. I've personally stored boats for the winter inside a building with 80 
gallons of 100 octane gas in the tank and there were 30 other boats of various 
sizes right next to mine with the same or greater fuel capacity. Some storage 
venues ask that you drain your tanks before you bring it in, but I have never 
seen anyone check for compliance. 

Some of the recent marina fires that have occurred in Alabama and Michigan show 
how devastating a fire can be in situations with multiple boats and RV's stored 
under the same roof. 

EH II at a minimum gives the best chance of saving at least part of the 
building and a high K factor CMHD or ESFR head would not be out of the 
question. 

MHO,

John Paulsen – SET
Sprinkler System Design & Sales
Silco Fire and Security
2345 Southwest Blvd.
Grove City, OH 43123
P-614-449-2101 Ext. 3367
F-614-449-2007
C-614-348-8206




-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 4:48 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: Re: RV Storage

My suggestions:


   - RV Storage Building* - Extra Hazard Group 2*
   - Boat Storage Building (just parked, not on racks) *- Extra Hazard
   Group 2*
   - Storage lockers with height less than 12 feet *- Depends on what is
   being stored.  For example, Group A plastics might be more demanding.
   Follow miscellaneous storage chart in NFPA 13.*

Hope this helps

*The above is my personal opinion as a professional engineer.  It has not been 
processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations 
Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied 
upon, as the official position of the NFPA.*

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org



   

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On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 3:29 PM Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum < 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Certainly EH 2 seems like it will get the job done. But for those of 
> you saying that, which commodity drives you to that? For example, if 
> they were three separate buildings:
>
> RV Storage Building
> Boat Storage Building (just parked, not on racks) Storage lockers with 
> height less than 12 feet
>
> Would you consider each of those EH 2 on their own? Or would one or 
> more of those be a lesser hazard?
>
> -Kyle M
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum 
> On Behalf Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 9:27 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Steve Leyton 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: RV Storage
>
> Concur.  We have done a couple previously that were takeovers with 
> CMDA sprinklers and have one currently in progress that used to be a