RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

2020-12-23 Thread Cary Webber via Sprinklerforum 
The statement "the manufacturer would probably use that as an "excuse" (my 
quotation marks) to not be held liable" is interesting and troubling at the 
same time. I presume the comment was intended to address a future issue with a 
sprinkler or sprinklers that cannot be directly tied to an earlier freeze 
issue. If so, we (and I assume other manufacturers) would view this as a 
"reason" why we may not be liable, but to say we would use it as an "excuse" is 
a bit harsh. Happy holidays everyone!


Cary Webber CFPS Director, Technical Services
Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Co., Inc.
1470 Smith Grove Road, Liberty, SC  29657 
Tel: 864-843-5161 



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 1:21 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Kyle.Montgomery ; Bob Caputo 

Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

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Matt,

I think I agree with all of Bob's points. Likelihood of freeze damage in a 
drained system should be lower, but in the event of damage the manufacturer 
would probably use that as an excuse to not be held liable. So there is some 
probably some risk there.

What are they hoping to accomplish by performing the test early? If they are 
concerned about potential water damage at a later date, would they accept an 
unofficial test with low pressure air? That would mitigate the likelihood of 
any large leaks and water damage at the time of the actual hydro test.

-Kyle M

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 9:06 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Bob Caputo 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

Matt,

Not sure many people are lurking around the forum this week, so I'll offer my 2 
cents worth..  1st and foremost, I would get the GC to sign off on a letter 
stating that you are not responsible for any freeze damage resulting from their 
request to perform the hydro prior to having heat in the building.

This is not as much chance for damage with the systems drained in my opinion, 
because if there is any ice formed at low points  or above the sprinklers, 
there is room for expansion without damage to surrounding parts.  That said, 
the sprinkler manufacturer would probably not recommend or stand behind their 
product in the event of any such damage.

You didn't note if the ESFR pendant sprinklers are attached directly to the 
branch lines or on drop nipples but assuming attached directly, I would 
recommend putting a good shop vac on the main drain and pulling a few remote 
sprinklers to draw off as much water as possible.  Regardless, protect you 
liability with a well written letter explaining your concerns and putting the 
responsibility for potential damage on the GC or the owner.  This will likely 
change their mind about doing the hydro before heat is available.

Just my opinion - and is not intended to represent the opinion of AFSA, NFPA or 
any NFPA Committee

Bob




Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
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RE: potential freezing in ESFR system

2020-12-22 Thread Scott Futrell via Sprinklerforum 
Great comments. Great information.

1" pipe with cast iron fittings filled with water explodes the side out of the 
cast iron ell in 52 minutes at 17⁰F and that piece flies 65 feet when not 
confined. I’ve done these experiments outside in winter.



Scott



Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2

Cell: (612) 759-5556



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of AKS-Gmail-IMAP via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 5:14 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: AKS-Gmail-IMAP 
Subject: Re: potential freezing in ESFR system



It is and has been surprising to me when fire protection contractors ask the 
pipe freezing question or when they ask piping support questions in context 
with approval by local AHJ of any kind. The reason for the surprise is because 
contractors have ready access to materials, labor and space to conduct their 
own very convincing freeze tests or load tests.

The pipe freezing question is often asked. The mechanics of why piping systems 
fail due to freezing is documented to be the result of excessive water pressure 
in the unfrozen part of a water piping system. Pipe failure is not due to the 
conventional wisdom idea that ice expands against the piping. The frozen part 
is a solid ice plug that occupies more volume than the original liquid water 
volume that has frozen. Since the unfrozen water is not compressible that 
increase volume change of the now frozen water results in excessive pressure in 
the remaining piping.

Notice where an antifreeze hose cock fails that has frozen because the outside 
hose was never removed for the winter trapping water within the assembly. It 
fails at the assembly part farthest into the building where the assembly was 
the warmest, not at the colder section closer to the building exterior.

Ask some of your plumber friends, perhaps the older ones, if they have ever 
seen dry ice packed around a water service line as a way to shutoff the water 
when the service tap valve cannot be found or is not functioning. This method 
works well as long as the excess down stream pressure is monitored and is 
periodically removed by cracking a valve open.

A simple experiment demonstrates the freezing mechanics. Here is a link to one 
performed at a university in Wisconsin.

https://www.madisongroup.com/publications/StudyofFreezing.pdf 
<https://www.madisongroup.com/publications/StudyofFreezing.pdf>

Another information source is here from Illinois: 
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/handle/2142/54757 
<https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/handle/2142/54757>

A fire protection contractor with any doubts (I would have doubts and I would 
want to see it myself.) could easily fabricate a small jungle gym of scrap 
piping, fittings and used sprinklers to setup outside the shop for testing the 
condition of residual water freezing in sprinkler drops.

Regarding load testing, it was common practice many years ago to build a small 
structural part of a building and then load it up with tons of whatever 
material was on hand to prove strength beyond that required for the structure. 
There is not much tech required to tally up the weights applied. Load tests for 
fire protection components would be much less elaborate. For a very simple 
example, if an AHJ questions how strong some twisted wire bracing is, then mock 
up a simple seat suspended by the practice for the AHJ to sit on. Contractors 
also have the means they did not have tears ago to use smart phones to record 
their testing methods.



Allan Seidel

St. Louis, MO

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Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

2020-12-22 Thread AKS-Gmail-IMAP via Sprinklerforum 
It is and has been surprising to me when fire protection contractors ask the 
pipe freezing question or when they ask piping support questions in context 
with approval by local AHJ of any kind. The reason for the surprise is because 
contractors have ready access to materials, labor and space to conduct their 
own very convincing freeze tests or load tests.
The pipe freezing question is often asked. The mechanics of why piping systems 
fail due to freezing is documented to be the result of excessive water pressure 
in the unfrozen part of a water piping system. Pipe failure is not due to the 
conventional wisdom idea that ice expands against the piping. The frozen part 
is a solid ice plug that occupies more volume than the original liquid water 
volume that has frozen. Since the unfrozen water is not compressible that 
increase volume change of the now frozen water results in excessive pressure in 
the remaining piping.
Notice where an antifreeze hose cock fails that has frozen because the outside 
hose was never removed for the winter trapping water within the assembly. It 
fails at the assembly part farthest into the building where the assembly was 
the warmest, not at the colder section closer to the building exterior. 
Ask some of your plumber friends, perhaps the older ones, if they have ever 
seen dry ice packed around a water service line as a way to shutoff the water 
when the service tap valve cannot be found or is not functioning. This method 
works well as long as the excess down stream pressure is monitored and is 
periodically removed by cracking a valve open.
A simple experiment demonstrates the freezing mechanics. Here is a link to one 
performed at a university in Wisconsin.
https://www.madisongroup.com/publications/StudyofFreezing.pdf 

Another information source is here from Illinois: 
https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/handle/2142/54757 

A fire protection contractor with any doubts (I would have doubts and I would 
want to see it myself.) could easily fabricate a small jungle gym of scrap 
piping, fittings and used sprinklers to setup outside the shop for testing the 
condition of residual water freezing in sprinkler drops.
Regarding load testing, it was common practice many years ago to build a small 
structural part of a building and then load it up with tons of whatever 
material was on hand to prove strength beyond that required for the structure. 
There is not much tech required to tally up the weights applied. Load tests for 
fire protection components would be much less elaborate. For a very simple 
example, if an AHJ questions how strong some twisted wire bracing is, then mock 
up a simple seat suspended by the practice for the AHJ to sit on. Contractors 
also have the means they did not have tears ago to use smart phones to record 
their testing methods.

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO
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RE: potential freezing in ESFR system

2020-12-22 Thread Hinson, Ryan via Sprinklerforum 
Hopefully, your sprinklers are not already installed.

Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET**  \  Burns & McDonnell
Senior Fire Protection Engineer
O 612-900-3755 NEW \  M 763-688-4045 \  F 952-229-2923
rhin...@burnsmcd.com  \  burnsmcd.com
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500  \  Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 55437
*Registered in: LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT
**NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 12:34 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

Currently - NFPA 13-2019 allows pulling plugs and installing sprinklers without 
another hydrostatic test.


28.2.1.8* When systems are being hydrostatically tested, tests shall be 
permitted to be conducted with pendent or horizontal sidewall sprinklers or 
plugs installed in fittings. Any plugs shall be replaced with pendent or 
horizontal sidewall sprinklers after the test is completed.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
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On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 1:17 PM Richard Mote  wrote:

> Just wondering, what would be the point of doing a hydrostatic test 
> and then replacing all the sprinklers. In a 40,000 sq. ft. system at 100 sq.
> ft. per, that a potential for 400 new leaks.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum < 
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: John Denhardt 
> Sent: Tue, Dec 22, 2020 1:11 pm
> Subject: Re: potential freezing in ESFR system
>
> Again personally, I would never knowingly put water in a wet piping 
> system unless the "client" can ensure or take responsibility" for any 
> damage due to freezing.  Pulling the pendent sprinklers is not a viable 
> option.
>
> As a contractor, in almost all cases, our client backed down.  In the 
> case when they insisted, we were compensated to remove and replace all 
> the sprinklers with new after the hydrostatic test.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> John August Denhardt

Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

2020-12-22 Thread John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum 
Currently - NFPA 13-2019 allows pulling plugs and installing sprinklers
without another hydrostatic test.


28.2.1.8* When systems are being hydrostatically tested, tests shall be
permitted to be conducted with pendent or horizontal sidewall sprinklers or
plugs installed in fittings. Any plugs shall be replaced with pendent or
horizontal sidewall sprinklers after the test is completed.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org
<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
<https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
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.


On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 1:17 PM Richard Mote  wrote:

> Just wondering, what would be the point of doing a hydrostatic test and
> then replacing all the sprinklers. In a 40,000 sq. ft. system at 100 sq.
> ft. per, that a potential for 400 new leaks.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: John Denhardt 
> Sent: Tue, Dec 22, 2020 1:11 pm
> Subject: Re: potential freezing in ESFR system
>
> Again personally, I would never knowingly put water in a wet piping system
> unless the "client" can ensure or take responsibility" for any damage due
> to freezing.  Pulling the pendent sprinklers is not a viable option.
>
> As a contractor, in almost all cases, our client backed down.  In the case
> when they insisted, we were compensated to remove and replace all
> the sprinklers with new after the hydrostatic test.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> John August Denhardt, PE
> *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*
>
> *American Fire Sprinkler Association*
> m: p: 301-343-1457
> 214-349-5965 ext 121
> w: firesprinkler.org
> <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
> <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>
> <
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/
> >
>   <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>
>
> *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*
>
>
> *Love free stuff? *
>
> Tell an industry friend why you are an AFSA member and when they join or
> re-join the AFSA family, you will receive a $100 Amazon gift card and
> they’ll receive one free AFSA on-demand webinar of their choice—including
> CEUs (a $250 value)! It’s our way to say thank you and welcome. Offer valid
> through December 31, 2020. Visit firesprinkler.org/join
> <
> https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Membership/Membership_Home_2.aspx?hkey=aaf9ae7c-5cf9-4981-b8f5-d852a5de39c5=3dff22a3-0306-479c-bccc-7aa1986c8ada
> >
> .
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 11:05 AM Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>
> > Matt,
> >
> > Not sure many people are lurking around the forum this week, so I’ll
> offer
> > my 2 cents worth….  1st and foremost, I would get the GC to sign off on a
> > letter stating that you are not responsible for any freeze damage
> resulting
> > from their request to perform the hydro prior to having heat in the
> > building.
> >
> > This is not as much chance for damage with the systems drained in my
> > opinion, because if there is any ice formed at low points  or above the
> > sprinklers, there is room for expansion without damage to surrounding
> > parts.  That said, the sprinkler manufacturer would probably not
> recommend
> > or stand behind their product in the event of any such damage.
> >
> > You didn’t note if the ESFR pendant sprinklers are attached directly to
> > the branch lines or on drop nipples but assuming attached directly, I
> would
> > recommend putting a good shop vac on the main drain and pulling a few
> > remote sprinklers to draw off as much water as possible.  Regardless,
> > protect you liability with a well written letter explaining your concerns
&

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

2020-12-22 Thread Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum 
Matt,

I think I agree with all of Bob's points. Likelihood of freeze damage in a 
drained system should be lower, but in the event of damage the manufacturer 
would probably use that as an excuse to not be held liable. So there is some 
probably some risk there.

What are they hoping to accomplish by performing the test early? If they are 
concerned about potential water damage at a later date, would they accept an 
unofficial test with low pressure air? That would mitigate the likelihood of 
any large leaks and water damage at the time of the actual hydro test.

-Kyle M

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 9:06 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Bob Caputo 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

Matt,

Not sure many people are lurking around the forum this week, so I’ll offer my 2 
cents worth….  1st and foremost, I would get the GC to sign off on a letter 
stating that you are not responsible for any freeze damage resulting from their 
request to perform the hydro prior to having heat in the building.

This is not as much chance for damage with the systems drained in my opinion, 
because if there is any ice formed at low points  or above the sprinklers, 
there is room for expansion without damage to surrounding parts.  That said, 
the sprinkler manufacturer would probably not recommend or stand behind their 
product in the event of any such damage.  

You didn’t note if the ESFR pendant sprinklers are attached directly to the 
branch lines or on drop nipples but assuming attached directly, I would 
recommend putting a good shop vac on the main drain and pulling a few remote 
sprinklers to draw off as much water as possible.  Regardless, protect you 
liability with a well written letter explaining your concerns and putting the 
responsibility for potential damage on the GC or the owner.  This will likely 
change their mind about doing the hydro before heat is available.

Just my opinion - and is not intended to represent the opinion of AFSA, NFPA or 
any NFPA Committee

Bob  




Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
w:  firesprinkler.org 
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> On Dec 22, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> we have a GC who wants to hydro test a pendant ESFR system before they have 
> heat in the building. They want to fill and test during the day while 
> temperatures are over 40F, and then drain the system before it gets cold 
> again.
> 
> I thought it did not sound like a great idea, but I can't necessarily find 
> any code or rule that specifically prohibits the plan.
> 
> on the same note - if a pendant ESFR warehouse were going to be l

Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

2020-12-22 Thread Richard Mote via Sprinklerforum 
Just wondering, what would be the point of doing a hydrostatic test and then 
replacing all the sprinklers. In a 40,000 sq. ft. system at 100 sq. ft. per, 
that a potential for 400 new leaks. 


-Original Message-
From: John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Sent: Tue, Dec 22, 2020 1:11 pm
Subject: Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

Again personally, I would never knowingly put water in a wet piping system
unless the "client" can ensure or take responsibility" for any damage due
to freezing.  Pulling the pendent sprinklers is not a viable option.

As a contractor, in almost all cases, our client backed down.  In the case
when they insisted, we were compensated to remove and replace all
the sprinklers with new after the hydrostatic test.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org
<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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.


On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 11:05 AM Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Not sure many people are lurking around the forum this week, so I’ll offer
> my 2 cents worth….  1st and foremost, I would get the GC to sign off on a
> letter stating that you are not responsible for any freeze damage resulting
> from their request to perform the hydro prior to having heat in the
> building.
>
> This is not as much chance for damage with the systems drained in my
> opinion, because if there is any ice formed at low points  or above the
> sprinklers, there is room for expansion without damage to surrounding
> parts.  That said, the sprinkler manufacturer would probably not recommend
> or stand behind their product in the event of any such damage.
>
> You didn’t note if the ESFR pendant sprinklers are attached directly to
> the branch lines or on drop nipples but assuming attached directly, I would
> recommend putting a good shop vac on the main drain and pulling a few
> remote sprinklers to draw off as much water as possible.  Regardless,
> protect you liability with a well written letter explaining your concerns
> and putting the responsibility for potential damage on the GC or the
> owner.  This will likely change their mind about doing the hydro before
> heat is available.
>
> Just my opinion - and is not intended to represent the opinion of AFSA,
> NFPA or any NFPA Committee
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> Bob Caputo, CFPS
> President
> American Fire Sprinkler Association
> p:      214-349-5965 ext124
> w:      firesprinkler.org <http://firesprinkler.org/>
>  <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>  <
> https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>  <
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
>  <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/>
> Love free stuff?
>
> Tell an industry friend why you are an AFSA member and when they join or
> re-join the AFSA family, you will receive a $100 Amazon gift card and
> they’ll receive one free AFSA on-demand webinar of their choice—including
> CEUs (a $250 value)! It’s our way to say thank you and welcome. Offer valid
> through December 31, 2020. Visit firesprinkler.org/join <
> https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Membership/Membership_Home_2.aspx?hkey=aaf9ae7c-5cf9-4981-b8f5-d852a5de39c5=3dff22a3-0306-479c-bccc-7aa1986c8ada
> >.
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 22, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > we have a GC who wants to hydro test a pendant ESFR system before they
> have heat in the building. They want to fill and test during the day while
> temperatures are over 40F, and then drain the system before it gets cold
> again.
> >
> > I thought it did not sound like a great idea, but I can't necessarily
> find any code or rule that specifically prohi

Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

2020-12-22 Thread John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum 
Again personally, I would never knowingly put water in a wet piping system
unless the "client" can ensure or take responsibility" for any damage due
to freezing.  Pulling the pendent sprinklers is not a viable option.

As a contractor, in almost all cases, our client backed down.  In the case
when they insisted, we were compensated to remove and replace all
the sprinklers with new after the hydrostatic test.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org



   

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*Love free stuff? *

Tell an industry friend why you are an AFSA member and when they join or
re-join the AFSA family, you will receive a $100 Amazon gift card and
they’ll receive one free AFSA on-demand webinar of their choice—including
CEUs (a $250 value)! It’s our way to say thank you and welcome. Offer valid
through December 31, 2020. Visit firesprinkler.org/join

.


On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 11:05 AM Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Not sure many people are lurking around the forum this week, so I’ll offer
> my 2 cents worth….  1st and foremost, I would get the GC to sign off on a
> letter stating that you are not responsible for any freeze damage resulting
> from their request to perform the hydro prior to having heat in the
> building.
>
> This is not as much chance for damage with the systems drained in my
> opinion, because if there is any ice formed at low points  or above the
> sprinklers, there is room for expansion without damage to surrounding
> parts.  That said, the sprinkler manufacturer would probably not recommend
> or stand behind their product in the event of any such damage.
>
> You didn’t note if the ESFR pendant sprinklers are attached directly to
> the branch lines or on drop nipples but assuming attached directly, I would
> recommend putting a good shop vac on the main drain and pulling a few
> remote sprinklers to draw off as much water as possible.  Regardless,
> protect you liability with a well written letter explaining your concerns
> and putting the responsibility for potential damage on the GC or the
> owner.  This will likely change their mind about doing the hydro before
> heat is available.
>
> Just my opinion - and is not intended to represent the opinion of AFSA,
> NFPA or any NFPA Committee
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> Bob Caputo, CFPS
> President
> American Fire Sprinkler Association
> p:  214-349-5965 ext124
> w:  firesprinkler.org 
>     <
> https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224>   <
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
>  
> Love free stuff?
>
> Tell an industry friend why you are an AFSA member and when they join or
> re-join the AFSA family, you will receive a $100 Amazon gift card and
> they’ll receive one free AFSA on-demand webinar of their choice—including
> CEUs (a $250 value)! It’s our way to say thank you and welcome. Offer valid
> through December 31, 2020. Visit firesprinkler.org/join <
> https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Membership/Membership_Home_2.aspx?hkey=aaf9ae7c-5cf9-4981-b8f5-d852a5de39c5=3dff22a3-0306-479c-bccc-7aa1986c8ada
> >.
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 22, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > we have a GC who wants to hydro test a pendant ESFR system before they
> have heat in the building. They want to fill and test during the day while
> temperatures are over 40F, and then drain the system before it gets cold
> again.
> >
> > I thought it did not sound like a great idea, but I can't necessarily
> find any code or rule that specifically prohibits the plan.
> >
> > on the same note - if a pendant ESFR warehouse were going to be left
> cold and drained, would it be required to pull every head?
> >
> > matt
> > ___
> > Sprinklerforum mailing list
> > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> >
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
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Re: potential freezing in ESFR system

2020-12-22 Thread Bob Caputo via Sprinklerforum 
Matt,

Not sure many people are lurking around the forum this week, so I’ll offer my 2 
cents worth….  1st and foremost, I would get the GC to sign off on a letter 
stating that you are not responsible for any freeze damage resulting from their 
request to perform the hydro prior to having heat in the building.

This is not as much chance for damage with the systems drained in my opinion, 
because if there is any ice formed at low points  or above the sprinklers, 
there is room for expansion without damage to surrounding parts.  That said, 
the sprinkler manufacturer would probably not recommend or stand behind their 
product in the event of any such damage.  

You didn’t note if the ESFR pendant sprinklers are attached directly to the 
branch lines or on drop nipples but assuming attached directly, I would 
recommend putting a good shop vac on the main drain and pulling a few remote 
sprinklers to draw off as much water as possible.  Regardless, protect you 
liability with a well written letter explaining your concerns and putting the 
responsibility for potential damage on the GC or the owner.  This will likely 
change their mind about doing the hydro before heat is available.

Just my opinion - and is not intended to represent the opinion of AFSA, NFPA or 
any NFPA Committee

Bob  




Bob Caputo, CFPS
President
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext124
w:  firesprinkler.org   
    
   
   

Love free stuff? 

Tell an industry friend why you are an AFSA member and when they join or 
re-join the AFSA family, you will receive a $100 Amazon gift card and they’ll 
receive one free AFSA on-demand webinar of their choice—including CEUs (a $250 
value)! It’s our way to say thank you and welcome. Offer valid through December 
31, 2020. Visit firesprinkler.org/join 
.




> On Dec 22, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> we have a GC who wants to hydro test a pendant ESFR system before they have 
> heat in the building. They want to fill and test during the day while 
> temperatures are over 40F, and then drain the system before it gets cold 
> again.
> 
> I thought it did not sound like a great idea, but I can't necessarily find 
> any code or rule that specifically prohibits the plan.
> 
> on the same note - if a pendant ESFR warehouse were going to be left cold and 
> drained, would it be required to pull every head?
> 
> matt
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

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