RE: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling

[Scott Futrell via Sprinklerforum]

Interesting discussion on this forum.
Steve is utilizing the scientific method that needs to be used to avoid a 
Daubert challenge and ensure the proper conclusion, if there is one.

Scott
 
Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2
Cell: (612) 759-5556

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 1:51 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton ; Gary Howard, P. Eng. 
; John Hoffman 
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling

Fire sprinkler systems have historically been designed on what is called a 
"deferred submittal" basis, which means that the construction docs are already 
submitted or approved under a separate permit application.   When sprinklers 
are put out to bid, the work has historically included establishing/verifying 
the correct basis of design, preparing construction documents (shop drawings), 
acquiring approval of those documents, installing, testing and commissioning 
into service.  All of this is done pursuant to the overall design and as with 
any trade, it is incumbent on the owner's design team to adequately specify the 
scope of work and standard of care.   In the real world, this happens maybe 20% 
of the time, by the way. 

In order to determine what the designer was actually charged with under the 
terms of the contract, you will have to review the bid documents that were made 
available to them and also performance specifications that should have included 
engineering standards for the building.  I've worked my entire career in 
California, so it's SOP here that buildings are seismically engineered and the 
sprinkler designer is ALWAYS charged with protecting the system against 
earthquakes.   The designer can only design for what they know and one of the 
weaknesses of this "deferred-design-build" business model is that more often 
than not, critical basis-of-design criteria ISN'T communicated to the designer 
by the design team because it's not known to them or, they may not have been 
qualified to specify or serve as engineer of record for the work.   Boilerplate 
spec's, abbreviated and generic "bid documents", inaccurate or missing design 
criteria - these are the norm for most sprinkler contracts.

To the question of whether the beam clamps should have been redesigned, I would 
counter first with a couple questions:  1) If wind loading was part of the 
original structural basis of design, why wasn't this conveyed to the sprinkler 
system designer before they began their work?2) If it was discovered 
(presumably by the owner) after occupancy that the building was subject to 
extreme wind shear forces (to the point where it might suddenly shift with such 
force as to blow one or more mechanical joints), what did the owner or their 
agent do with this information?  Did they seek out design and building 
resources to investigate and remediate any potential deficiencies in the 
original designs?

I've been designated as an expert in about 40 cases over the course of my 
career.  Many of them are like this, a post-facto forensic investigation into a 
failure.   There are generally two kinds, product defect and construction 
defect.   (As will all things in civil law, there's always a third implied 
cause of failure, that being an act of God.)   You may also have negligence on 
the part of the sprinkler designer or the specifier of the FP work, or the 
structural engineer or the architect and potentially, the owner based on what 
they knew and when they knew it.   You've asked our community some questions 
that I'll call anecdotal, i.e. "Has anyone experienced this or have ideas about 
what happened here?"   But from my experience, I would offer to you that there 
will either be a substantiated cause established scientifically OR, nobody ever 
establishes for sure how/why this happened and the lawyers will then have to 
mud-wrestle over whether this is a "Sh*t Happens" case or an Act of Go
 d.  (They call it "subrogation").   In order to help them figure out who sues 
who and who counter claims and sues who else for subrogation (seems like there 
are quite a few potential pockets in this matter) you'll need to:

1)  Analyze the clamps and compare how many threads were buried, comparing how 
thick was the steel flange and how much pressure is estimated to have been 
applied (did the installer tighten them properly?).
2)  Analyze the grooved fitting(s) that failed.   Where the rubbers intact or 
damaged?   Any way of determining how they got pushed off?  Were the closure 
bolts tightened properly?
3)  Analyze the rolled grooves and piping.   Are the grooves per spec' for 
depth?  Scratch marks or distortions on the pipe that may explain how the 
coupling(s) moved off?
4)  Compare pipe and fittings from one or more of the 8 intervening elbows that 
didn't fail to the one(s) that did. 
5)  Review s

Re: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling

[Gary Howard, P. Eng. via Sprinklerforum]

and how much pressure is estimated to have 
> been applied (did the installer tighten them properly?).
> 2)  Analyze the grooved fitting(s) that failed.   Where the rubbers intact or 
> damaged?   Any way of determining how they got pushed off?  Were the closure 
> bolts tightened properly?
> 3)  Analyze the rolled grooves and piping.   Are the grooves per spec' for 
> depth?  Scratch marks or distortions on the pipe that may explain how the 
> coupling(s) moved off?
> 4)  Compare pipe and fittings from one or more of the 8 intervening elbows 
> that didn't fail to the one(s) that did. 
> 5)  Review specifications and bid documents - were they accurate and did they 
> direct the designer to a reasonable standard of care?  Was wind loading 
> mentioned?
> 6)  Review the provisions in the spec's and approved plans for hangers, 
> anchorage, etc.   This may entail review of both FP and also structural specs 
> - did the SEOR include details for anchorage?
> 7)  Did the (fire department) approved sprinkler plans get sent to any of the 
> design team stakeholders for review, to assure conformance to both published 
> codes and standards, but also the contract documents?
> 8)  Have any other buildings in the immediate area suffered damage from 
> wind-related phenomena?  Are any other buildings in the area engineering for 
> movement due to wind shear?
> 9)  Do authorities having jurisdiction have code amendments, policies or 
> ordinances beyond the published codes and standards for any aspect of this 
> design?   This could be the building and/or fire official.
> 
> I just riffed these, but if I sat down to look at this matter and gave it 
> some thought, I could probably come up with at least 10 more considerations.  
>   And keep in mind that this is often (seems to be here) an exercise of 
> checking boxes, so by the end of the line, you may just find that this one 
> gets attributed to "Sh*t Happens."
> 
> 
> Steve Leyton, President
> Protection Design and Consulting
> T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  www.protectiondesign.com 
> 2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
> Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
> Behalf Of Gary Howard, P. Eng. via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 10:45 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Gary Howard, P. Eng. ; John Hoffman 
> 
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling
> 
> I should note that it was windy when I was investigating 3 days after the 
> event. I will check that for the date of loss. However, the clamps should 
> redesigned to handle this, no?
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 25, 2022, at 11:19 AM, John Hoffman via Sprinklerforum 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> How windy was it?  Steel joisted building roofs can move up and down a lot, 
>> several inches, in the wind.  Over time, this up and down could have an 
>> impact on the pipe support system.  You might check that and its potential 
>> affect on pipe hangers.  A structural engineer can probably look at the 
>> building design and tell you how much it will move under what wind speed.  
>> John Hoffman
>>   On Thursday, February 24, 2022, 03:22:41 PM CST, Gary Howard via 
>> Sprinklerforum  wrote:  
>> 
>> Thanks Craig. I see your posts all the time.
>> 
>> 1  The grooves have not been measured in detail yet, but they are not 
>> suspect 2. Coupling bolt torques were not checked. Good point to note 
>> 3. It is part of 5 dead-end runs from a common manifold. Yes, as you 
>> describe but the UG system comes in the the municipal supply. I do not know 
>> about a loop or dead end but it is something to check. Note that there was 
>> no pipe movement elsewhere in the plant before this fell.
>> 4. Would have been about 50F at the.  Ceiling. It was cold and windy 
>> outside. I will check the weather on the day it fell.
>> 5.  All fittings were straight that I could tell. The elbow fell while still 
>> attached to pipes.
>> 6.  Yes, as far as I can determine. The installation was 4 years old 
>> and the designer also inspected it and signed off. He will be at the 
>> Examination for Discover in April
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 24, 2022, at 3:44 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've been involved in several system failure investigations.  There are 
>>> numerous causes.
>>> 
>>> Things to look for:
>>> 1. Rolled grooves: were the grooves in the pipe determined to have been 
>>> done correctly and to manufacturer's specifications

RE: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

act documents?
8)  Have any other buildings in the immediate area suffered damage from 
wind-related phenomena?  Are any other buildings in the area engineering for 
movement due to wind shear?
9)  Do authorities having jurisdiction have code amendments, policies or 
ordinances beyond the published codes and standards for any aspect of this 
design?   This could be the building and/or fire official.

I just riffed these, but if I sat down to look at this matter and gave it some 
thought, I could probably come up with at least 10 more considerations.And 
keep in mind that this is often (seems to be here) an exercise of checking 
boxes, so by the end of the line, you may just find that this one gets 
attributed to "Sh*t Happens."


Steve Leyton, President
Protection Design and Consulting
T  |  619.255.8964 x 102  |  www.protectiondesign.com 
2851 Camino Del Rio South  |  Suite 210  |  San Diego, CA  92108
Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training




-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Gary Howard, P. Eng. via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 10:45 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Gary Howard, P. Eng. ; John Hoffman 
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling

I should note that it was windy when I was investigating 3 days after the 
event. I will check that for the date of loss. However, the clamps should 
redesigned to handle this, no?



> On Feb 25, 2022, at 11:19 AM, John Hoffman via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> How windy was it?  Steel joisted building roofs can move up and down a lot, 
> several inches, in the wind.  Over time, this up and down could have an 
> impact on the pipe support system.  You might check that and its potential 
> affect on pipe hangers.  A structural engineer can probably look at the 
> building design and tell you how much it will move under what wind speed.  
> John Hoffman
>On Thursday, February 24, 2022, 03:22:41 PM CST, Gary Howard via 
> Sprinklerforum  wrote:  
> 
> Thanks Craig. I see your posts all the time.
> 
> 1  The grooves have not been measured in detail yet, but they are not 
> suspect 2. Coupling bolt torques were not checked. Good point to note 
> 3. It is part of 5 dead-end runs from a common manifold. Yes, as you describe 
> but the UG system comes in the the municipal supply. I do not know about a 
> loop or dead end but it is something to check. Note that there was no pipe 
> movement elsewhere in the plant before this fell.
> 4. Would have been about 50F at the.  Ceiling. It was cold and windy outside. 
> I will check the weather on the day it fell.
> 5.  All fittings were straight that I could tell. The elbow fell while still 
> attached to pipes.
> 6.  Yes, as far as I can determine. The installation was 4 years old 
> and the designer also inspected it and signed off. He will be at the 
> Examination for Discover in April
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 24, 2022, at 3:44 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL  wrote:
>> 
>> I've been involved in several system failure investigations.  There are 
>> numerous causes.
>> 
>> Things to look for:
>> 1. Rolled grooves: were the grooves in the pipe determined to have been done 
>> correctly and to manufacturer's specifications?
>> 2. Were coupling bolts torqued to proper spec. This one is a hard one to 
>> determine after the fact.
>> 3. Is the system part of a grid or loop or tree?  Dead-end systems can be 
>> subjected to some pretty significant internal forces when a pump kicks on.  
>> We did a pressure analysis with pressure transducers on a couple of mystery 
>> failures, the results were astounding. Plus the force wave doesn't just move 
>> in one direction.  Is the pump serving this manifold connected to an 
>> underground fire service main then to a run-in to this system?  Is that UG 
>> system looped or dead-end?
>> 4. What temperatures was this piping exposed to?
>> 5. Were fittings connected within their allowable angle offset?
>> 6. Were hangers and hanger material properly sized and installed correctly?
>> 
>> Just a few of the things we encountered for your consideration.
>> 
>> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
>> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
>> 1041 East Butler Road  Greenville, South Carolina  29606 CONTACT BY: 
>> email or MS TEAMS
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sprinklerforum  
>> On Behalf Of Gary Howard via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2022 2:55 PM
>> To: Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Gary Howard 
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling
>> 
>> Hello all

Re: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling

[Gary Howard, P. Eng. via Sprinklerforum]

I should note that it was windy when I was investigating 3 days after the 
event. I will check that for the date of loss. However, the clamps should 
redesigned to handle this, no?



> On Feb 25, 2022, at 11:19 AM, John Hoffman via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> How windy was it?  Steel joisted building roofs can move up and down a lot, 
> several inches, in the wind.  Over time, this up and down could have an 
> impact on the pipe support system.  You might check that and its potential 
> affect on pipe hangers.  A structural engineer can probably look at the 
> building design and tell you how much it will move under what wind speed.  
> John Hoffman
>On Thursday, February 24, 2022, 03:22:41 PM CST, Gary Howard via 
> Sprinklerforum  wrote:  
> 
> Thanks Craig. I see your posts all the time.
> 
> 1  The grooves have not been measured in detail yet, but they are not suspect
> 2. Coupling bolt torques were not checked. Good point to note
> 3. It is part of 5 dead-end runs from a common manifold. Yes, as you describe 
> but the UG system comes in the the municipal supply. I do not know about a 
> loop or dead end but it is something to check. Note that there was no pipe 
> movement elsewhere in the plant before this fell.
> 4. Would have been about 50F at the.  Ceiling. It was cold and windy outside. 
> I will check the weather on the day it fell.
> 5.  All fittings were straight that I could tell. The elbow fell while still 
> attached to pipes.
> 6.  Yes, as far as I can determine. The installation was 4 years old and the 
> designer also inspected it and signed off. He will be at the Examination for 
> Discover in April
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 24, 2022, at 3:44 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL  wrote:
>> 
>> I've been involved in several system failure investigations.  There are 
>> numerous causes.
>> 
>> Things to look for:
>> 1. Rolled grooves: were the grooves in the pipe determined to have been done 
>> correctly and to manufacturer's specifications?
>> 2. Were coupling bolts torqued to proper spec. This one is a hard one to 
>> determine after the fact.
>> 3. Is the system part of a grid or loop or tree?  Dead-end systems can be 
>> subjected to some pretty significant internal forces when a pump kicks on.  
>> We did a pressure analysis with pressure transducers on a couple of mystery 
>> failures, the results were astounding. Plus the force wave doesn't just move 
>> in one direction.  Is the pump serving this manifold connected to an 
>> underground fire service main then to a run-in to this system?  Is that UG 
>> system looped or dead-end?
>> 4. What temperatures was this piping exposed to?
>> 5. Were fittings connected within their allowable angle offset?
>> 6. Were hangers and hanger material properly sized and installed correctly?
>> 
>> Just a few of the things we encountered for your consideration.
>> 
>> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
>> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
>> 1041 East Butler Road  Greenville, South Carolina  29606
>> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
>> Behalf Of Gary Howard via Sprinklerforum
>> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2022 2:55 PM
>> To: Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> Cc: Gary Howard 
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling
>> 
>> Hello all
>> 
>> I have been reading here for 2 years but this is my first post.
>> 
>> I am investigating a 2018 collapse of about 150 feet of water-filled pipe, 
>> including a midspan 90 degree elbow. No injuries, but an insurance claim.
>> 
>> The actual cause has not yet been determined.
>> 
>> It is supposed that the separation of a vertical 8 inch pipe from the 
>> manifold that also separated, (rolled grove joints) caused the elbow support 
>> clamps to slip off the joist upper flange. It is about 250 feet away from 
>> the riser and has about 8 elbows in-between.
>> 
>> It is alleged that a pressure surge caused pipe movement which was captured 
>> by security cameras, about 2 seconds before the collapse. Not sure that this 
>> can cause pipe movement if the pipe is already full. We tested this with the 
>> fire pump on and off = no movement.
>> 
>> The Caddy Clamp left scratch marks on the flange near the elbow which was 
>> first to fall. Elsewhere, the clamps were broken from overload and the 
>> flanges were deformed.
>> 
>> Apparently no forklift strike.
>> 
>> Any thought on the cause?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Gary W. Howard, P. Eng.,
>> Consulting Engineer
>> President
>> SAFETY AND FORENSIC ENGINEERING INC.
>> 33 Rolling Court,
>> King City, Ontario, Canada, L7B 1E8
>> Phone: 416-843-1413
>> Fax:905-833-2332
>> ghow...@safeinc.ca  
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.safeinc.ca__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!VCPGntyQXJycyYoDpG373V_e9amsLSb2_RFu95FHKXtVw15w0loIkNnNmIli-sCjWw$
>>   
>> 

Re: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling

[John Hoffman via Sprinklerforum]

 How windy was it?  Steel joisted building roofs can move up and down a lot, 
several inches, in the wind.  Over time, this up and down could have an impact 
on the pipe support system.  You might check that and its potential affect on 
pipe hangers.  A structural engineer can probably look at the building design 
and tell you how much it will move under what wind speed.  
John Hoffman
On Thursday, February 24, 2022, 03:22:41 PM CST, Gary Howard via 
Sprinklerforum  wrote:  
 
 Thanks Craig. I see your posts all the time.

1  The grooves have not been measured in detail yet, but they are not suspect
2. Coupling bolt torques were not checked. Good point to note
3. It is part of 5 dead-end runs from a common manifold. Yes, as you describe 
but the UG system comes in the the municipal supply. I do not know about a loop 
or dead end but it is something to check. Note that there was no pipe movement 
elsewhere in the plant before this fell.
4. Would have been about 50F at the.  Ceiling. It was cold and windy outside. I 
will check the weather on the day it fell.
5.  All fittings were straight that I could tell. The elbow fell while still 
attached to pipes.
6.  Yes, as far as I can determine. The installation was 4 years old and the 
designer also inspected it and signed off. He will be at the Examination for 
Discover in April



> On Feb 24, 2022, at 3:44 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL  wrote:
> 
> I've been involved in several system failure investigations.  There are 
> numerous causes.
> 
> Things to look for:
> 1. Rolled grooves: were the grooves in the pipe determined to have been done 
> correctly and to manufacturer's specifications?
> 2. Were coupling bolts torqued to proper spec. This one is a hard one to 
> determine after the fact.
> 3. Is the system part of a grid or loop or tree?  Dead-end systems can be 
> subjected to some pretty significant internal forces when a pump kicks on.  
> We did a pressure analysis with pressure transducers on a couple of mystery 
> failures, the results were astounding. Plus the force wave doesn't just move 
> in one direction.  Is the pump serving this manifold connected to an 
> underground fire service main then to a run-in to this system?  Is that UG 
> system looped or dead-end?
> 4. What temperatures was this piping exposed to?
> 5. Were fittings connected within their allowable angle offset?
> 6. Were hangers and hanger material properly sized and installed correctly?
> 
> Just a few of the things we encountered for your consideration.
> 
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road  Greenville, South Carolina  29606
> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
> Behalf Of Gary Howard via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2022 2:55 PM
> To: Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Gary Howard 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling
> 
> Hello all
> 
> I have been reading here for 2 years but this is my first post.
> 
> I am investigating a 2018 collapse of about 150 feet of water-filled pipe, 
> including a midspan 90 degree elbow. No injuries, but an insurance claim.
> 
> The actual cause has not yet been determined.
> 
> It is supposed that the separation of a vertical 8 inch pipe from the 
> manifold that also separated, (rolled grove joints) caused the elbow support 
> clamps to slip off the joist upper flange. It is about 250 feet away from the 
> riser and has about 8 elbows in-between.
> 
> It is alleged that a pressure surge caused pipe movement which was captured 
> by security cameras, about 2 seconds before the collapse. Not sure that this 
> can cause pipe movement if the pipe is already full. We tested this with the 
> fire pump on and off = no movement.
> 
> The Caddy Clamp left scratch marks on the flange near the elbow which was 
> first to fall. Elsewhere, the clamps were broken from overload and the 
> flanges were deformed.
> 
> Apparently no forklift strike.
> 
> Any thought on the cause?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary W. Howard, P. Eng.,
> Consulting Engineer
> President
> SAFETY AND FORENSIC ENGINEERING INC.
> 33 Rolling Court,
> King City, Ontario, Canada, L7B 1E8
> Phone: 416-843-1413
> Fax:    905-833-2332
> ghow...@safeinc.ca  
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.safeinc.ca__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!VCPGntyQXJycyYoDpG373V_e9amsLSb2_RFu95FHKXtVw15w0loIkNnNmIli-sCjWw$
>   
>   >
> 
> Confidentiality Notice :
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended 
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If 
> you have received this email in error please notify the sender. This message 
> contains confidential information and is intended only for the 

Re: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling

[Gary Howard via Sprinklerforum]

Thanks Craig. I see your posts all the time.

1  The grooves have not been measured in detail yet, but they are not suspect
2. Coupling bolt torques were not checked. Good point to note
3. It is part of 5 dead-end runs from a common manifold. Yes, as you describe 
but the UG system comes in the the municipal supply. I do not know about a loop 
or dead end but it is something to check. Note that there was no pipe movement 
elsewhere in the plant before this fell.
4. Would have been about 50F at the.  Ceiling. It was cold and windy outside. I 
will check the weather on the day it fell.
5.  All fittings were straight that I could tell. The elbow fell while still 
attached to pipes.
6.  Yes, as far as I can determine. The installation was 4 years old and the 
designer also inspected it and signed off. He will be at the Examination for 
Discover in April



> On Feb 24, 2022, at 3:44 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL  wrote:
> 
> I've been involved in several system failure investigations.  There are 
> numerous causes.
> 
> Things to look for:
> 1. Rolled grooves: were the grooves in the pipe determined to have been done 
> correctly and to manufacturer's specifications?
> 2. Were coupling bolts torqued to proper spec. This one is a hard one to 
> determine after the fact.
> 3. Is the system part of a grid or loop or tree?  Dead-end systems can be 
> subjected to some pretty significant internal forces when a pump kicks on.  
> We did a pressure analysis with pressure transducers on a couple of mystery 
> failures, the results were astounding. Plus the force wave doesn't just move 
> in one direction.  Is the pump serving this manifold connected to an 
> underground fire service main then to a run-in to this system?  Is that UG 
> system looped or dead-end?
> 4. What temperatures was this piping exposed to?
> 5. Were fittings connected within their allowable angle offset?
> 6. Were hangers and hanger material properly sized and installed correctly?
> 
> Just a few of the things we encountered for your consideration.
> 
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
> Behalf Of Gary Howard via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2022 2:55 PM
> To: Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Gary Howard 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling
> 
> Hello all
> 
> I have been reading here for 2 years but this is my first post.
> 
> I am investigating a 2018 collapse of about 150 feet of water-filled pipe, 
> including a midspan 90 degree elbow. No injuries, but an insurance claim.
> 
> The actual cause has not yet been determined.
> 
> It is supposed that the separation of a vertical 8 inch pipe from the 
> manifold that also separated, (rolled grove joints) caused the elbow support 
> clamps to slip off the joist upper flange. It is about 250 feet away from the 
> riser and has about 8 elbows in-between.
> 
> It is alleged that a pressure surge caused pipe movement which was captured 
> by security cameras, about 2 seconds before the collapse. Not sure that this 
> can cause pipe movement if the pipe is already full. We tested this with the 
> fire pump on and off = no movement.
> 
> The Caddy Clamp left scratch marks on the flange near the elbow which was 
> first to fall. Elsewhere, the clamps were broken from overload and the 
> flanges were deformed.
> 
> Apparently no forklift strike.
> 
> Any thought on the cause?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary W. Howard, P. Eng.,
> Consulting Engineer
> President
> SAFETY AND FORENSIC ENGINEERING INC.
> 33 Rolling Court,
> King City, Ontario, Canada, L7B 1E8
> Phone: 416-843-1413
> Fax: 905-833-2332
> ghow...@safeinc.ca  
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RE: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

I've been involved in several system failure investigations.  There are 
numerous causes.

Things to look for:
1. Rolled grooves: were the grooves in the pipe determined to have been done 
correctly and to manufacturer's specifications?
2. Were coupling bolts torqued to proper spec. This one is a hard one to 
determine after the fact.
3. Is the system part of a grid or loop or tree?  Dead-end systems can be 
subjected to some pretty significant internal forces when a pump kicks on.  We 
did a pressure analysis with pressure transducers on a couple of mystery 
failures, the results were astounding. Plus the force wave doesn't just move in 
one direction.  Is the pump serving this manifold connected to an underground 
fire service main then to a run-in to this system?  Is that UG system looped or 
dead-end?
4. What temperatures was this piping exposed to?
5. Were fittings connected within their allowable angle offset?
6. Were hangers and hanger material properly sized and installed correctly?

Just a few of the things we encountered for your consideration.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Gary Howard via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2022 2:55 PM
To: Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Gary Howard 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] 8 inch sprinkler pipe fall from factory ceiling

Hello all

I have been reading here for 2 years but this is my first post.

I am investigating a 2018 collapse of about 150 feet of water-filled pipe, 
including a midspan 90 degree elbow. No injuries, but an insurance claim.

The actual cause has not yet been determined.

It is supposed that the separation of a vertical 8 inch pipe from the manifold 
that also separated, (rolled grove joints) caused the elbow support clamps to 
slip off the joist upper flange. It is about 250 feet away from the riser and 
has about 8 elbows in-between.

It is alleged that a pressure surge caused pipe movement which was captured by 
security cameras, about 2 seconds before the collapse. Not sure that this can 
cause pipe movement if the pipe is already full. We tested this with the fire 
pump on and off = no movement.

The Caddy Clamp left scratch marks on the flange near the elbow which was first 
to fall. Elsewhere, the clamps were broken from overload and the flanges were 
deformed.

Apparently no forklift strike.

Any thought on the cause?






Gary W. Howard, P. Eng.,
Consulting Engineer
President
SAFETY AND FORENSIC ENGINEERING INC.
33 Rolling Court,
King City, Ontario, Canada, L7B 1E8
Phone: 416-843-1413
Fax: 905-833-2332
ghow...@safeinc.ca  
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.safeinc.ca__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!VCPGntyQXJycyYoDpG373V_e9amsLSb2_RFu95FHKXtVw15w0loIkNnNmIli-sCjWw$
  


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