RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems
Every few months we get a GC asking us to hook up to these systems, we “politely” refuse. The manufacturer’s literature is vague, installation requirements can be expensive (reduced pressure backflow, low maximum pressure limit, pipe sizing?, inspection/testing requirements?), and we’ve had Captive Aire submit these for permit under our contractor number without permission. After trying to facilitate installation on a couple projects, we’ve determined it’s not worth the hassle. Phil Stoehr Design Manager Smith Fire Systems Direct: (253) 248-2057 Cell: (253) 380-1623 psto...@smithfire.com<mailto:psto...@smithfire.com> From: Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 1:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Travis Mack ; Ron Greenman Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems Travis, In a roundabout way, that sort of answers your question. If they aren’t allowed to connect to domestic fixtures that may be operating at the same time, then it stands to reason that they shouldn’t connect to sprinkler systems that are operating at the same time. Ergo, if they are allowed to be connected to the sprinkler system, then it stands to reason that the sprinklers should not be operating simultaneously with this system. Case closed. ☺ -Kyle M From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:49 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Travis Mack mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; Ron Greenman mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems I’ve run into these on multiple projects. They go by the name Captive Aire, Core and Pirhana. They have a pressure demand of 32-70 psi and a flow rate of about 40 gpm depending on the number of nozzles. We see these in Marriott properties often. They can be off domestic or fire as I see it. They are supposed to be direct line as was described to me yesterday. So they can’t have sinks or other fixture coming off the line supplying them. Doesn’t make sense why it can attach to sprinkler then. But none of the suppliers will state if we have to flow this simultaneously with sprinklers. This job is always fun. Get to see lots of crazy things. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET 480-505-9271 MFP Design, LLC www.mfpdesign,com<http://www.mfpdesign,com> Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.hightail.com_u_MFPDesign=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=9xvLfQ6AqIL4u1QdnX9fyYjt0D0CraEfbnfamwDCjHU=> Sent from my iPhone On Aug 15, 2019, at 11:36 AM, Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: Travis, Like Bruce, I may be a few years out of date also but I've never seen one of these connected to a sprinkler system. They are for a special hazard and so independent of the life safety and building protection definition for a sprinkler system. These are designed to smother the fire with the saponifying agent and then use the water to cool down the appliances to avoid reflash. Way back in the nineties, this system was a way that Ansul came up with to meet the new requirements of UL 300. requirements that commercial cooking operations had to comply with even in unsprinklered buildings (think stand-alone McDonald's, Red Robins, etc, under 5000 or 6000 sqft that weren't required to be sprinklered then). Note that NFPA 13 isn't even referenced as an applicable code/standard. CODES AND STANDARDS The PIRANHA hybrid wet agent system and its components meet the following codes, standards and recommended practices: 1. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 300 – Fire Testing of Fire Extinguishing Systems for Protection of Restaurant Cooking Areas. 2. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 2092 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing Units. 3. Underwriters Laboratory of Canada (ULC): Standard ORD-C1254.6 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing System Units. 4. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 17A – Wet Chemical Extinguishing Systems. 5. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 96 – Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations. 6. American Society of Sanitary Engineers (ASSE): Standard 1001 – Cross Connection Protection Devices: Guidelines for Selection of the Proper Type of Backflow Preventor – Piped Applied Atmospheric Vacuum Breakers. 7. International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials (IAPMO): Installation, Material and Property Standard PS 108-98 – Grease Fire Suppression Systems. Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 253.576.9700 The Uni
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems
It is definitely a challenge to get down to the details for these systems to determine the implications for “supply its water from the automatic sprinkler system”. I don’t think the system nuts and bolts details are easily available online for inquiry. I have seen the installation and controls diagrams for such an existing system, which probably was tucked into the control cabinet or pasted to its access door. It had two water supply connections. One was for cold water and one was for hot water. These hot and cold supplies connected to electrically operated valves. The control panel switched the water supply between cold and hot as needed for the suppression mode and the wash down mode. In this part of the country connecting the cold supply to the automatic sprinkler system meant there are two possible water supply cross contamination avenues. One is the automatic sprinkler system crossing into the kitchen hot water system which may not have had an RPZ back flow preventer on its supply line. The other avenue is the wet chemical suppression agent somehow backing into the sprinkler system, thus requiring an RPZ back flow preventer between the sprinkler system and its water supply. New Zealand sounds like it may be sophisticated in its rules regarding these systems so that the question regarding supply from the automatic sprinkler system is not one that opens a can of worms. Allan Seidel St.Louis, MO > On Aug 15, 2019, at 7:26 PM, Russell Gregory via Sprinklerforum > wrote: > > Further to Nicky’s comments I would add that the systems installed as tail > end to fire sprinklers do not have the hood washing feature that the Captive > Air appear to have. > Pressure reducing is needed in some cases. > > Russell Gregory > Christchurch; New Zealand > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] > On Behalf Of Nicky Marshall via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Friday, 16 August 2019 11:43 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: Nicky Marshall; Travis Mack > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems > > In New Zealand, we frequently connect them to a sprinkler system as the > installation of an approved ‘restaurant system’ permits sprinklers to be > omitted from ducts and hoods in our standard. > We do not allow a cumulative demand. Although our standard does not > explicitly state what you should do. > When connected to a sprinkler system they are treated much like a ‘tail-end’ > pre-action or dry system. Because sprinkler system compliance is dependent > on that system, they are connected with a supervised/monitored valve to warn > if closed and they also usually have a flow or operation switch on them that > indicates on a fire alarm panel. > Our suppliers also do the calculations. > > > Nicky Marshall <> > Southern Regional Manager > PROTECH DESIGN LIMITED > Specialist Fire Protection Consultants > Phone: +64 (0)3 579 5577 extn 1 Mobile: +64 (0)21 433 488 Email: > ni...@protechdesign.co.nz <mailto:ni...@protechdesign.co.nz> Web > :www.protechdesign.co.nz > Address:105A Alabama Rd, Redwoodtown, Blenheim 7201, NZ Skype for Business: > ni...@protechdesign.co.nz <mailto:ni...@protechdesign.co.nz> > > “I always wondered why somebody doesn't do something about that. Then I > realised I was somebody” Lily Tomlin > >>> >>> From: Sprinklerforum >> <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of >>> Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:32 PM >>> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >>> <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >>> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G >> <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; 'Bruce Verhei' >> <mailto:bver...@comcast.net>> >>> Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems >>> >>> Get this. They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of >>> the water. So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system. >>> We’ve seen these attached to both domestic and fire. I always push for >>> domestic because I don’t want to deal with them. I find it funny that the >>> hood supplier will say it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they >>> won’t do anything to prove it will work. They throw that all back to the >>> sprinkler guys. Just been one of those days. >>> >>> >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com_=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=Acxe8iKYA32DZOYelVqiEbnMyMuAFqfl5EZoKkQ
RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems
Further to Nicky’s comments I would add that the systems installed as tail end to fire sprinklers do not have the hood washing feature that the Captive Air appear to have. Pressure reducing is needed in some cases. Russell Gregory Christchurch; New Zealand From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Nicky Marshall via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, 16 August 2019 11:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Nicky Marshall; Travis Mack Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems In New Zealand, we frequently connect them to a sprinkler system as the installation of an approved ‘restaurant system’ permits sprinklers to be omitted from ducts and hoods in our standard. We do not allow a cumulative demand. Although our standard does not explicitly state what you should do. When connected to a sprinkler system they are treated much like a ‘tail-end’ pre-action or dry system. Because sprinkler system compliance is dependent on that system, they are connected with a supervised/monitored valve to warn if closed and they also usually have a flow or operation switch on them that indicates on a fire alarm panel. Our suppliers also do the calculations. Nicky Marshall Southern Regional Manager PROTECH DESIGN LIMITED Specialist Fire Protection Consultants Phone: +64 (0)3 579 5577 extn 1 Mobile: +64 (0)21 433 488 Email: <mailto:ni...@protechdesign.co.nz> ni...@protechdesign.co.nz Web :www.protechdesign.co.nz Address:105A Alabama Rd, Redwoodtown, Blenheim 7201, NZ Skype for Business: <mailto:ni...@protechdesign.co.nz> ni...@protechdesign.co.nz A close up of a signDescription automatically generated “I always wondered why somebody doesn't do something about that. Then I realised I was somebody” Lily Tomlin From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G ; 'Bruce Verhei' Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems Get this. They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of the water. So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system. We’ve seen these attached to both domestic and fire. I always push for domestic because I don’t want to deal with them. I find it funny that the hood supplier will say it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they won’t do anything to prove it will work. They throw that all back to the sprinkler guys. Just been one of those days. <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com_=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=Acxe8iKYA32DZOYelVqiEbnMyMuAFqfl5EZoKkQ2Avg=> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> tm...@mfpdesign.com www.mfpdesign.com <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=Gltsm1BrBL21AQMy8Nvo33FoaCPDBK_xhLt7P67dJR8=> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Bruce Verhei Subject: Re: Captive Aire Systems I might be a couple years out of date. I think the ones we saw were off domestic water, with a small backflow device. You can’t run a restaurant without water, so there is no concern about water system not being monitored. Best. On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:19, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum wrote: I’m sure some of you have dealt with these Captive Aire / Piranha systems. Basically they are hood systems that connect to the sprinkler system. The one I have a data sheet for has an operating pressure of 32-70 psi and flows vary depending on # of nozzles. How do those of you dealing with these handle them? The supplier will not do any calculations for the system. My question is, do we treat these like a “rack” system and balance the hood systems to the overhead? If I have a kitchen with 3 of these, do I figure 0, 1, 2 or 3 flowing simultaneously with the overhead. As you can imagine, a standard sprinkler in the kitchen is ±10 psi. Now, if we have to treat this like a rack system and balance at the junction point, this 30 psi for the Piranha system will significantly over-discharge the sprinklers leading to a much larger kitchen demand. These often seem to be brought up toward t
RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems
In New Zealand, we frequently connect them to a sprinkler system as the installation of an approved ‘restaurant system’ permits sprinklers to be omitted from ducts and hoods in our standard. We do not allow a cumulative demand. Although our standard does not explicitly state what you should do. When connected to a sprinkler system they are treated much like a ‘tail-end’ pre-action or dry system. Because sprinkler system compliance is dependent on that system, they are connected with a supervised/monitored valve to warn if closed and they also usually have a flow or operation switch on them that indicates on a fire alarm panel. Our suppliers also do the calculations. [cid:image002.jpg@01D55427.AE70BF60]Nicky Marshall Southern Regional Manager PROTECH DESIGN LIMITED Specialist Fire Protection Consultants Phone: +64 (0)3 579 5577 extn 1 Mobile: +64 (0)21 433 488 Email: ni...@protechdesign.co.nz<mailto:ni...@protechdesign.co.nz> Web :www.protechdesign.co.nz Address:105A Alabama Rd, Redwoodtown, Blenheim 7201, NZ Skype for Business: ni...@protechdesign.co.nz<mailto:ni...@protechdesign.co.nz> [A close up of a signDescription automatically generated] “I always wondered why somebody doesn't do something about that. Then I realised I was somebody” Lily Tomlin From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; 'Bruce Verhei' mailto:bver...@comcast.net>> Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems Get this. They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of the water. So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system. We’ve seen these attached to both domestic and fire. I always push for domestic because I don’t want to deal with them. I find it funny that the hood supplier will say it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they won’t do anything to prove it will work. They throw that all back to the sprinkler guys. Just been one of those days. <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com_=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=Acxe8iKYA32DZOYelVqiEbnMyMuAFqfl5EZoKkQ2Avg=> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=Gltsm1BrBL21AQMy8Nvo33FoaCPDBK_xhLt7P67dJR8=> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.hightail.com-252Fu-252FMFPDesign-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77-257C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511-257C0-257C0-257C636379016677342180-26sdata-3DeGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5-252BAZvlHhABSexWY-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=H5GpUDcGGbSUN2hDfLN78D0iAPeCFMWGbSwO9v2rDEs=> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.linkedin.com-252Fin-252Ftravismack-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77-257C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511-257C0-257C0-257C636379016677342180-26sdata-3DtT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN-252BZodi-252FhbeCbHNRijI-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=usaND8vUFqwjN4Jt0Ec36pz4KZQvXJyWus4GHBqT3tU=> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Bruce Verhei mailto:bver...@comcast.net>> Subject: Re: Captive Aire Systems I might be a couple years out of date. I think the ones we saw were off domestic water, with a small backflow device. You can’t run a restaurant without water, so there is no concern about water system not being monitored. Best. On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:19, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: I’m sure some of you have dealt
RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems
I was told that they can’t have the connections to toilets or sinks upstream because it could take water away from the system when needed. But, in this case they finally came back and just took it from the domestic. So I won’t worry about it until the next one comes up. <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> tm...@mfpdesign.com www.mfpdesign.com Send large files to us via: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 1:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Travis Mack ; Ron Greenman Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems Travis, In a roundabout way, that sort of answers your question. If they aren’t allowed to connect to domestic fixtures that may be operating at the same time, then it stands to reason that they shouldn’t connect to sprinkler systems that are operating at the same time. Ergo, if they are allowed to be connected to the sprinkler system, then it stands to reason that the sprinklers should not be operating simultaneously with this system. Case closed. :) -Kyle M From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:49 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Travis Mack mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> >; Ron Greenman mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems I’ve run into these on multiple projects. They go by the name Captive Aire, Core and Pirhana. They have a pressure demand of 32-70 psi and a flow rate of about 40 gpm depending on the number of nozzles. We see these in Marriott properties often. They can be off domestic or fire as I see it. They are supposed to be direct line as was described to me yesterday. So they can’t have sinks or other fixture coming off the line supplying them. Doesn’t make sense why it can attach to sprinkler then. But none of the suppliers will state if we have to flow this simultaneously with sprinklers. This job is always fun. Get to see lots of crazy things. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET 480-505-9271 MFP Design, LLC www.mfpdesign,com <http://www.mfpdesign,com> Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.hightail.com_u_MFPDesign=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=9xvLfQ6AqIL4u1QdnX9fyYjt0D0CraEfbnfamwDCjHU=> Sent from my iPhone On Aug 15, 2019, at 11:36 AM, Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > wrote: Travis, Like Bruce, I may be a few years out of date also but I've never seen one of these connected to a sprinkler system. They are for a special hazard and so independent of the life safety and building protection definition for a sprinkler system. These are designed to smother the fire with the saponifying agent and then use the water to cool down the appliances to avoid reflash. Way back in the nineties, this system was a way that Ansul came up with to meet the new requirements of UL 300. requirements that commercial cooking operations had to comply with even in unsprinklered buildings (think stand-alone McDonald's, Red Robins, etc, under 5000 or 6000 sqft that weren't required to be sprinklered then). Note that NFPA 13 isn't even referenced as an applicable code/standard. CODES AND STANDARDS The PIRANHA hybrid wet agent system and its components meet the following codes, standards and recommended practices: 1. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 300 – Fire Testing of Fire Extinguishing Systems for Protection of Restaurant Cooking Areas. 2. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 2092 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing Units. 3. Underwriters Laboratory of Canada (ULC): Standard ORD-C1254.6 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing System Units.
RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems
Travis, In a roundabout way, that sort of answers your question. If they aren’t allowed to connect to domestic fixtures that may be operating at the same time, then it stands to reason that they shouldn’t connect to sprinkler systems that are operating at the same time. Ergo, if they are allowed to be connected to the sprinkler system, then it stands to reason that the sprinklers should not be operating simultaneously with this system. Case closed. ☺ -Kyle M From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:49 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Travis Mack ; Ron Greenman Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Captive Aire Systems I’ve run into these on multiple projects. They go by the name Captive Aire, Core and Pirhana. They have a pressure demand of 32-70 psi and a flow rate of about 40 gpm depending on the number of nozzles. We see these in Marriott properties often. They can be off domestic or fire as I see it. They are supposed to be direct line as was described to me yesterday. So they can’t have sinks or other fixture coming off the line supplying them. Doesn’t make sense why it can attach to sprinkler then. But none of the suppliers will state if we have to flow this simultaneously with sprinklers. This job is always fun. Get to see lots of crazy things. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET 480-505-9271 MFP Design, LLC www.mfpdesign,com<http://www.mfpdesign,com> Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.hightail.com_u_MFPDesign=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=9xvLfQ6AqIL4u1QdnX9fyYjt0D0CraEfbnfamwDCjHU=> Sent from my iPhone On Aug 15, 2019, at 11:36 AM, Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: Travis, Like Bruce, I may be a few years out of date also but I've never seen one of these connected to a sprinkler system. They are for a special hazard and so independent of the life safety and building protection definition for a sprinkler system. These are designed to smother the fire with the saponifying agent and then use the water to cool down the appliances to avoid reflash. Way back in the nineties, this system was a way that Ansul came up with to meet the new requirements of UL 300. requirements that commercial cooking operations had to comply with even in unsprinklered buildings (think stand-alone McDonald's, Red Robins, etc, under 5000 or 6000 sqft that weren't required to be sprinklered then). Note that NFPA 13 isn't even referenced as an applicable code/standard. CODES AND STANDARDS The PIRANHA hybrid wet agent system and its components meet the following codes, standards and recommended practices: 1. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 300 – Fire Testing of Fire Extinguishing Systems for Protection of Restaurant Cooking Areas. 2. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 2092 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing Units. 3. Underwriters Laboratory of Canada (ULC): Standard ORD-C1254.6 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing System Units. 4. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 17A – Wet Chemical Extinguishing Systems. 5. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 96 – Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations. 6. American Society of Sanitary Engineers (ASSE): Standard 1001 – Cross Connection Protection Devices: Guidelines for Selection of the Proper Type of Backflow Preventor – Piped Applied Atmospheric Vacuum Breakers. 7. International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials (IAPMO): Installation, Material and Property Standard PS 108-98 – Grease Fire Suppression Systems. Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:21 AM Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: The purpose of a “hood” in this application is to direct and capture grease laden stuff… Re: NFPA 96. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP Design Manager /3-D Specialist Rapid Fire Protection Inc.<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__rapidfireinc.com_=DwMFaQ=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=P9cL1oBlMFsJR9PkQUpPBhDWLqRBCWXfiCfaqcJDrso=k6wCrLzNrRjwhH8nRUMeDPywRT7yZPkGxEIvY25h9Kk=> 1530 Samco Road Rapid City, SD 57702 Office-605.348.2342 Direct Line-605.593.5063 Cell-605.391.2733 Fax:-605.348.0108 From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Jonathan Mote via Sprinkler
Re: Captive Aire Systems
I’ve run into these on multiple projects. They go by the name Captive Aire, Core and Pirhana. They have a pressure demand of 32-70 psi and a flow rate of about 40 gpm depending on the number of nozzles. We see these in Marriott properties often. They can be off domestic or fire as I see it. They are supposed to be direct line as was described to me yesterday. So they can’t have sinks or other fixture coming off the line supplying them. Doesn’t make sense why it can attach to sprinkler then. But none of the suppliers will state if we have to flow this simultaneously with sprinklers. This job is always fun. Get to see lots of crazy things. Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET 480-505-9271 MFP Design, LLC www.mfpdesign,com Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 15, 2019, at 11:36 AM, Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum > wrote: > > Travis, > > Like Bruce, I may be a few years out of date also but I've never seen one of > these connected to a sprinkler system. They are for a special hazard and so > independent of the life safety and building protection definition for a > sprinkler system. These are designed to smother the fire with the saponifying > agent and then use the water to cool down the appliances to avoid reflash. > Way back in the nineties, this system was a way that Ansul came up with to > meet the new requirements of UL 300. requirements that commercial cooking > operations had to comply with even in unsprinklered buildings (think > stand-alone McDonald's, Red Robins, etc, under 5000 or 6000 sqft that weren't > required to be sprinklered then). Note that NFPA 13 isn't even referenced as > an applicable code/standard. > > CODES AND STANDARDS > The PIRANHA hybrid wet agent system and its components meet the following > codes, standards and recommended practices: > > 1. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 300 – Fire Testing of Fire > Extinguishing Systems for Protection of Restaurant Cooking Areas. > > 2. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 2092 – Pre-Engineered Wet > Chemical Extinguishing Units. > > 3. Underwriters Laboratory of Canada (ULC): Standard ORD-C1254.6 – > Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing System Units. > > 4. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 17A – Wet Chemical > Extinguishing Systems. > > 5. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 96 – Ventilation > Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations. > > 6. American Society of Sanitary Engineers (ASSE): Standard 1001 – Cross > Connection Protection Devices: Guidelines for Selection of the Proper Type of > Backflow Preventor – Piped Applied Atmospheric Vacuum Breakers. > > 7. International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials (IAPMO): > Installation, Material and Property Standard PS 108-98 – Grease Fire > Suppression Systems. > > > Ron Greenman > > rongreen...@gmail.com > > 253.576.9700 > > The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner > Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) > > >> On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:21 AM Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum >> wrote: >> The purpose of a “hood” in this application is to direct and capture grease >> laden stuff… >> >> >> >> Re: NFPA 96. >> >> >> >> R/ >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP >> >> Design Manager /3-D Specialist >> >> Rapid Fire Protection Inc. >> >> 1530 Samco Road >> >> Rapid City, SD 57702 >> >> Office-605.348.2342 >> >> Direct Line-605.593.5063 >> >> Cell-605.391.2733 >> >> Fax:-605.348.0108 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum On >> Behalf Of Jonathan Mote via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:15 AM >> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> Cc: Jonathan Mote >> Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems >> >> >> >> Those hoods meet the definition of a draft curtain, added in 2013 edition, I >> would think they could be considered independently of the regular system. >> >> >> >> Jonathan Mote, WBSL NICET II >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum On >> Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:32 PM >> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G ; 'Bruce >> Verhei' >>
RE: Captive Aire Systems
T, You said “Piranha”. These normally connect to potable and or have water tank in addition to the Wet Agent. Your description sounded more like the Core which is continuous water supply for fire suppression AND wash down that have losses equated for connection to fire sprinkler? Same? R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP Design Manager /3-D Specialist Rapid Fire Protection Inc.<http://rapidfireinc.com/> 1530 Samco Road Rapid City, SD 57702 Office-605.348.2342 Direct Line-605.593.5063 Cell-605.391.2733 Fax:-605.348.0108 [cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00] From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of David Williams via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 1:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: David Williams ; Ron Greenman Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems At least one of the Twin Cities local jurisdictions want to see these system or fire protection sprinklers installed in all kitchen hoods. The Fire Marshall want to have protection even when the agent has been expended (such as an agent only system). (they also want sprinklers to back up clean agent installations). I think we have always shown them connected to the domestic as per the installation manual. David T Williams – Lead MEP/FP Engineer LHB, Inc. | PERFORMANCE DRIVEN DESIGN. From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 1:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Ron Greenman mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com>> Subject: Re: Captive Aire Systems Travis, Like Bruce, I may be a few years out of date also but I've never seen one of these connected to a sprinkler system. They are for a special hazard and so independent of the life safety and building protection definition for a sprinkler system. These are designed to smother the fire with the saponifying agent and then use the water to cool down the appliances to avoid reflash. Way back in the nineties, this system was a way that Ansul came up with to meet the new requirements of UL 300. requirements that commercial cooking operations had to comply with even in unsprinklered buildings (think stand-alone McDonald's, Red Robins, etc, under 5000 or 6000 sqft that weren't required to be sprinklered then). Note that NFPA 13 isn't even referenced as an applicable code/standard. CODES AND STANDARDS The PIRANHA hybrid wet agent system and its components meet the following codes, standards and recommended practices: 1. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 300 – Fire Testing of Fire Extinguishing Systems for Protection of Restaurant Cooking Areas. 2. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 2092 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing Units. 3. Underwriters Laboratory of Canada (ULC): Standard ORD-C1254.6 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing System Units. 4. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 17A – Wet Chemical Extinguishing Systems. 5. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 96 – Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations. 6. American Society of Sanitary Engineers (ASSE): Standard 1001 – Cross Connection Protection Devices: Guidelines for Selection of the Proper Type of Backflow Preventor – Piped Applied Atmospheric Vacuum Breakers. 7. International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials (IAPMO): Installation, Material and Property Standard PS 108-98 – Grease Fire Suppression Systems. Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:21 AM Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: The purpose of a “hood” in this application is to direct and capture grease laden stuff… Re: NFPA 96. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP Design Manager /3-D Specialist Rapid Fire Protection Inc.<http://rapidfireinc.com/> 1530 Samco Road Rapid City, SD 57702 Office-605.348.2342 Direct Line-605.593.5063 Cell-605.391.2733 Fax:-605.348.0108 [cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00] From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Jonathan Mote via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:15 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Jonathan Mote mailto:jonat...@rowesprinkler.com>> Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems Those hoods meet the definition of a draft curtain, added in 2013 edition, I would think they could be considered independently of the regular system. Jonathan Mote, WBSL NICET II From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Beha
RE: Captive Aire Systems
At least one of the Twin Cities local jurisdictions want to see these system or fire protection sprinklers installed in all kitchen hoods. The Fire Marshall want to have protection even when the agent has been expended (such as an agent only system). (they also want sprinklers to back up clean agent installations). I think we have always shown them connected to the domestic as per the installation manual. David T Williams – Lead MEP/FP Engineer LHB, Inc. | PERFORMANCE DRIVEN DESIGN. From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 1:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Ron Greenman Subject: Re: Captive Aire Systems Travis, Like Bruce, I may be a few years out of date also but I've never seen one of these connected to a sprinkler system. They are for a special hazard and so independent of the life safety and building protection definition for a sprinkler system. These are designed to smother the fire with the saponifying agent and then use the water to cool down the appliances to avoid reflash. Way back in the nineties, this system was a way that Ansul came up with to meet the new requirements of UL 300. requirements that commercial cooking operations had to comply with even in unsprinklered buildings (think stand-alone McDonald's, Red Robins, etc, under 5000 or 6000 sqft that weren't required to be sprinklered then). Note that NFPA 13 isn't even referenced as an applicable code/standard. CODES AND STANDARDS The PIRANHA hybrid wet agent system and its components meet the following codes, standards and recommended practices: 1. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 300 – Fire Testing of Fire Extinguishing Systems for Protection of Restaurant Cooking Areas. 2. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 2092 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing Units. 3. Underwriters Laboratory of Canada (ULC): Standard ORD-C1254.6 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing System Units. 4. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 17A – Wet Chemical Extinguishing Systems. 5. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 96 – Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations. 6. American Society of Sanitary Engineers (ASSE): Standard 1001 – Cross Connection Protection Devices: Guidelines for Selection of the Proper Type of Backflow Preventor – Piped Applied Atmospheric Vacuum Breakers. 7. International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials (IAPMO): Installation, Material and Property Standard PS 108-98 – Grease Fire Suppression Systems. Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:21 AM Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: The purpose of a “hood” in this application is to direct and capture grease laden stuff… Re: NFPA 96. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP Design Manager /3-D Specialist Rapid Fire Protection Inc.<http://rapidfireinc.com/> 1530 Samco Road Rapid City, SD 57702 Office-605.348.2342 Direct Line-605.593.5063 Cell-605.391.2733 Fax:-605.348.0108 [cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00] From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Jonathan Mote via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:15 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Jonathan Mote mailto:jonat...@rowesprinkler.com>> Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems Those hoods meet the definition of a draft curtain, added in 2013 edition, I would think they could be considered independently of the regular system. Jonathan Mote, WBSL NICET II From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; 'Bruce Verhei' mailto:bver...@comcast.net>> Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems Get this. They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of the water. So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system. We’ve seen these attached to both domestic and fire. I always push for domestic because I don’t want to deal with them. I find it funny that the hood supplier will say it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they won’t do anything to prove it will work. They throw that all back to the sprinkler guys. Just been one of those days. [MFP_logo_F]<http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC
Re: Captive Aire Systems
Travis, Like Bruce, I may be a few years out of date also but I've never seen one of these connected to a sprinkler system. They are for a special hazard and so independent of the life safety and building protection definition for a sprinkler system. These are designed to smother the fire with the saponifying agent and then use the water to cool down the appliances to avoid reflash. Way back in the nineties, this system was a way that Ansul came up with to meet the new requirements of UL 300. requirements that commercial cooking operations had to comply with even in unsprinklered buildings (think stand-alone McDonald's, Red Robins, etc, under 5000 or 6000 sqft that weren't required to be sprinklered then). Note that NFPA 13 isn't even referenced as an applicable code/standard. CODES AND STANDARDS The PIRANHA hybrid wet agent system and its components meet the following codes, standards and recommended practices: 1. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 300 – Fire Testing of Fire Extinguishing Systems for Protection of Restaurant Cooking Areas. 2. Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. (UL): Standard 2092 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing Units. 3. Underwriters Laboratory of Canada (ULC): Standard ORD-C1254.6 – Pre-Engineered Wet Chemical Extinguishing System Units. 4. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 17A – Wet Chemical Extinguishing Systems. 5. National Fire Protection Association (NFPA): Standard 96 – Ventilation Control and Fire Protection of Commercial Cooking Operations. 6. American Society of Sanitary Engineers (ASSE): Standard 1001 – Cross Connection Protection Devices: Guidelines for Selection of the Proper Type of Backflow Preventor – Piped Applied Atmospheric Vacuum Breakers. 7. International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials (IAPMO): Installation, Material and Property Standard PS 108-98 – Grease Fire Suppression Systems. Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:21 AM Matthew J Willis via Sprinklerforum < sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > The purpose of a “hood” in this application is to direct and capture > grease laden stuff… > > > > Re: NFPA 96. > > > > R/ > > Matt > > > > *Matthew J. Willis, **CWBSP* > > *Design Manager /**3-D** Specialist* > > *Rapid Fire Protection Inc. <http://rapidfireinc.com/>* > > *1530 Samco Road* > > *Rapid City, SD 57702* > > *Office-605.348.2342* > > *Direct Line-605.593.5063* > > *Cell-605.391.2733* > > *Fax:-605.348.0108* > > > > [image: cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00] > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum *On > Behalf Of *Jonathan Mote via Sprinklerforum > *Sent:* Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:15 AM > *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Cc:* Jonathan Mote > *Subject:* RE: Captive Aire Systems > > > > Those hoods meet the definition of a draft curtain, added in 2013 edition, > I would think they could be considered independently of the regular system. > > > > *Jonathan Mote,* WBSL NICET II > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum *On > Behalf Of *Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:32 PM > *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Cc:* Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G ; 'Bruce > Verhei' > *Subject:* RE: Captive Aire Systems > > > > *Get this. They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of > the water. So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system. > We’ve seen these attached to both domestic and fire. I always push for > domestic because I don’t want to deal with them. I find it funny that the > hood supplier will say it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they > won’t do anything to prove it will work. They throw that all back to the > sprinkler guys. Just been one of those days.* > > > > [image: MFP_logo_F] <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> > > Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET > > MFP Design, LLC > > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > > 480-505-9271 > > fax: 866-430-6107 > > tm...@mfpdesign.com > > www.mfpdesign.com > > > > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> > > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http
RE: Captive Aire Systems
The purpose of a “hood” in this application is to direct and capture grease laden stuff… Re: NFPA 96. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP Design Manager /3-D Specialist Rapid Fire Protection Inc.<http://rapidfireinc.com/> 1530 Samco Road Rapid City, SD 57702 Office-605.348.2342 Direct Line-605.593.5063 Cell-605.391.2733 Fax:-605.348.0108 [cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00] From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Jonathan Mote via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:15 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Jonathan Mote Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems Those hoods meet the definition of a draft curtain, added in 2013 edition, I would think they could be considered independently of the regular system. Jonathan Mote, WBSL NICET II From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>>; 'Bruce Verhei' mailto:bver...@comcast.net>> Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems Get this. They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of the water. So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system. We’ve seen these attached to both domestic and fire. I always push for domestic because I don’t want to deal with them. I find it funny that the hood supplier will say it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they won’t do anything to prove it will work. They throw that all back to the sprinkler guys. Just been one of those days. [MFP_logo_F]<http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Bruce Verhei mailto:bver...@comcast.net>> Subject: Re: Captive Aire Systems I might be a couple years out of date. I think the ones we saw were off domestic water, with a small backflow device. You can’t run a restaurant without water, so there is no concern about water system not being monitored. Best. On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:19, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: I’m sure some of you have dealt with these Captive Aire / Piranha systems. Basically they are hood systems that connect to the sprinkler system. The one I have a data sheet for has an operating pressure of 32-70 psi and flows vary depending on # of nozzles. How do those of you dealing with these handle them? The supplier will not do any calculations for the system. My question is, do we treat these like a “rack” system and balance the hood systems to the overhead? If I have a kitchen with 3 of these, do I figure 0, 1, 2 or 3 flowing simultaneously with the overhead. As you can imagine, a standard sprinkler in the kitchen is ±10 psi. Now, if we have to treat this like a rack system and balance at the junction point, this 30 psi for the Piranha system will significantly over-discharge the sprinklers leading to a much larger kitchen demand. These often seem to be brought up toward the end of the project leaving everyone scrambling. What has the collective group been doing with these things? <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69
RE: Captive Aire Systems
Those hoods meet the definition of a draft curtain, added in 2013 edition, I would think they could be considered independently of the regular system. Jonathan Mote, WBSL NICET II From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G ; 'Bruce Verhei' Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems Get this. They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of the water. So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system. We’ve seen these attached to both domestic and fire. I always push for domestic because I don’t want to deal with them. I find it funny that the hood supplier will say it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they won’t do anything to prove it will work. They throw that all back to the sprinkler guys. Just been one of those days. [MFP_logo_F]<http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Bruce Verhei mailto:bver...@comcast.net>> Subject: Re: Captive Aire Systems I might be a couple years out of date. I think the ones we saw were off domestic water, with a small backflow device. You can’t run a restaurant without water, so there is no concern about water system not being monitored. Best. On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:19, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: I’m sure some of you have dealt with these Captive Aire / Piranha systems. Basically they are hood systems that connect to the sprinkler system. The one I have a data sheet for has an operating pressure of 32-70 psi and flows vary depending on # of nozzles. How do those of you dealing with these handle them? The supplier will not do any calculations for the system. My question is, do we treat these like a “rack” system and balance the hood systems to the overhead? If I have a kitchen with 3 of these, do I figure 0, 1, 2 or 3 flowing simultaneously with the overhead. As you can imagine, a standard sprinkler in the kitchen is ±10 psi. Now, if we have to treat this like a rack system and balance at the junction point, this 30 psi for the Piranha system will significantly over-discharge the sprinklers leading to a much larger kitchen demand. These often seem to be brought up toward the end of the project leaving everyone scrambling. What has the collective group been doing with these things? <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: Captive Aire Systems
First ones presented to me I kicked add not listed. They added some 13 references to the data sheets. They will drive calc, and you balance. You only need to prove worst one following with system. Not all at once. R/ Matt On the road.. From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 4:32:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G ; 'Bruce Verhei' Subject: RE: Captive Aire Systems Get this. They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of the water. So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system. We’ve seen these attached to both domestic and fire. I always push for domestic because I don’t want to deal with them. I find it funny that the hood supplier will say it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they won’t do anything to prove it will work. They throw that all back to the sprinkler guys. Just been one of those days. [MFP_logo_F]<http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Bruce Verhei Subject: Re: Captive Aire Systems I might be a couple years out of date. I think the ones we saw were off domestic water, with a small backflow device. You can’t run a restaurant without water, so there is no concern about water system not being monitored. Best. On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:19, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote: I’m sure some of you have dealt with these Captive Aire / Piranha systems. Basically they are hood systems that connect to the sprinkler system. The one I have a data sheet for has an operating pressure of 32-70 psi and flows vary depending on # of nozzles. How do those of you dealing with these handle them? The supplier will not do any calculations for the system. My question is, do we treat these like a “rack” system and balance the hood systems to the overhead? If I have a kitchen with 3 of these, do I figure 0, 1, 2 or 3 flowing simultaneously with the overhead. As you can imagine, a standard sprinkler in the kitchen is ±10 psi. Now, if we have to treat this like a rack system and balance at the junction point, this 30 psi for the Piranha system will significantly over-discharge the sprinklers leading to a much larger kitchen demand. These often seem to be brought up toward the end of the project leaving everyone scrambling. What has the collective group been doing with these things? <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> www.mfpdesign.com<http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@l
RE: Captive Aire Systems
Get this. They are concerned of the domestic system robbing the hood of the water. So this is why they are pushing it to the sprinkler system. We’ve seen these attached to both domestic and fire. I always push for domestic because I don’t want to deal with them. I find it funny that the hood supplier will say it has to connect to the sprinkler system but they won’t do anything to prove it will work. They throw that all back to the sprinkler guys. Just been one of those days. <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> tm...@mfpdesign.com www.mfpdesign.com Send large files to us via: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Bruce Verhei Subject: Re: Captive Aire Systems I might be a couple years out of date. I think the ones we saw were off domestic water, with a small backflow device. You can’t run a restaurant without water, so there is no concern about water system not being monitored. Best. On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:19, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > wrote: I’m sure some of you have dealt with these Captive Aire / Piranha systems. Basically they are hood systems that connect to the sprinkler system. The one I have a data sheet for has an operating pressure of 32-70 psi and flows vary depending on # of nozzles. How do those of you dealing with these handle them? The supplier will not do any calculations for the system. My question is, do we treat these like a “rack” system and balance the hood systems to the overhead? If I have a kitchen with 3 of these, do I figure 0, 1, 2 or 3 flowing simultaneously with the overhead. As you can imagine, a standard sprinkler in the kitchen is ±10 psi. Now, if we have to treat this like a rack system and balance at the junction point, this 30 psi for the Piranha system will significantly over-discharge the sprinklers leading to a much larger kitchen demand. These often seem to be brought up toward the end of the project leaving everyone scrambling. What has the collective group been doing with these things? <http://www.mfpdesign.com/> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> tm...@mfpdesign.com www.mfpdesign.com <http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D=0> https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0> https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: Captive Aire Systems
I might be a couple years out of date. I think the ones we saw were off domestic water, with a small backflow device. You can’t run a restaurant without water, so there is no concern about water system not being monitored. Best. > On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:19, Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via > Sprinklerforum wrote: > > I’m sure some of you have dealt with these Captive Aire / Piranha systems. > Basically they are hood systems that connect to the sprinkler system. The > one I have a data sheet for has an operating pressure of 32-70 psi and flows > vary depending on # of nozzles. How do those of you dealing with these > handle them? The supplier will not do any calculations for the system. My > question is, do we treat these like a “rack” system and balance the hood > systems to the overhead? If I have a kitchen with 3 of these, do I figure 0, > 1, 2 or 3 flowing simultaneously with the overhead. As you can imagine, a > standard sprinkler in the kitchen is ±10 psi. Now, if we have to treat this > like a rack system and balance at the junction point, this 30 psi for the > Piranha system will significantly over-discharge the sprinklers leading to a > much larger kitchen demand. These often seem to be brought up toward the end > of the project leaving everyone scrambling. > > What has the collective group been doing with these things? > > > Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET > MFP Design, LLC > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > 480-505-9271 > fax: 866-430-6107 > tm...@mfpdesign.com > www.mfpdesign.com > > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > > “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price > is forgotten.” > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org