RE: Rounding off {Squaring off?}

2012-04-26 Thread bcasterline
just think about how with #13 calcs u start at the end and work backwards. when you get to the start you're done ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum

RE: Rounding off {Squaring off?}

2012-04-26 Thread bcasterline
just think about how with #13 calcs u start at the end and work backwards. when you get to the start you're done ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum

RE: History Lesson - Spray Sprinklers become the Standard

2012-04-28 Thread bcasterline
Fascinating stuff! The very first sprinkler had a pendent orientation- it was a hole in the bottom of a pipe ;). It might be that the value of a simple manual system is over-looked these days. (especially freezers where you have what, 3 or 4 days b4 the combustible even thaws out?)

RE: History Lesson - Spray Sprinklers become the Standard

2012-04-29 Thread bcasterline
has anyone noticed the title of nfpa 13 is NOT 'Standard for the Insallation of AUTOMATIC Sprinkler Systems'? any history on this? anything in 13 that says automatic is a must? Sorry to diverge even further Cecil, from the lesson at hand. Ron, George, Steve, Ken, Thom? anyone heard from

RE: History Lesson - Spray Sprinklers become the Standard

2012-04-29 Thread bcasterline
i guess. i think it all started in the big mills (whatever those were) out east-if there was a fire in the lower 40 someone said 'hey joe, go open valve L40E. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Re: History Lesson - Spray Sprinklers become the Standard

2012-04-29 Thread bcasterline
patiently waiting (with baited breath) for you to care Teach ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum

Re: History Lesson - Spray Sprinklers become the Standard

2012-04-30 Thread bcasterline
'automatic' is in the definition of system types, and has probably been required from the time the head replaced the hole. sorry forum- i need to simmer down again- i'll try.. Ron, correction; i was waiting with bated breath, not baited. ___

RE: Hangers - Mains in a Pre-Eng Building

2012-05-10 Thread bcasterline
good stuff. here in the heart of not seismic, but the country itself, (if fracing doesnt go to far) sway bracing is more like a fashion that comes and goes; the PM says 'you done yet?, the tech says ya, uh this need to be be braced?- ya- ok i need 10 minutes to throw some symbols at 40 and 80. I

Re: Intent of 8.15.1.2.7

2012-05-14 Thread bcasterline
Steve, Math and science are opinion free. Check the latest ROP, i think Roland was involved, there was something about the 6 not allowing a fire to spread, and i remember thinking it made sense. However that does not mean it was accepted. I would check but i have left the building. (thanks

Re: Intent of 8.15.1.2.7

2012-05-14 Thread bcasterline
Steve, Math and science are opinion free. Check the latest ROP, i think Roland was involved, there was something about the 6 not allowing a fire to spread, and i remember thinking it made sense. However that does not mean it was accepted. I would check but i have left the building. (thanks

Re: In Rack Sprinkler Supply

2012-05-21 Thread bcasterline
definately concurr with Travis-- it is the same sprinkler air space above the same fire floor space, with no vertical seperation. Quoting Travis Mack, SET tm...@mfpdesign.com: It is my understanding you have to flow them simultaneously, even if the balance point is at the public main.

RE: Factory Mutual Data Sheet 2.0 - Sprinkler Orientation and Spacing

2012-05-23 Thread bcasterline
i wouldn't fret too much about perfect patterns. the heat of vaporization of water is 970 btu/lb. the heat of combustion of most fuels is 5600 btu/lb. pick a conservative fuel burning rate and put that many pounds of water/time somewhere in the vicinity. firefighters can probably FEEL this

Re: Factory Mutual Data Sheet 2.0 - Sprinkler Orientation and Spacing

2012-05-25 Thread bcasterline
I'll take it, based on the feeling that ten years from now 'green' will have become 'greener still'. Quoting Roland Huggins rhugg...@firesprinkler.org: On May 25, 2012, at 3:49 AM, Damien Shannon wrote: Any bets on whether any time in the next decade or two that NFPA 13 will abandon

Re: Factory Mutual Data Sheet 2.0 - Sprinkler Orientation and Spacing

2012-05-28 Thread bcasterline
Is there a difference between abandoned and modified? What if the 13-23 tied Density to ceiling height and Area to occupancy? Even without a fire, a .1 at the deflector is a .09 on the floor due to some droplets evaporating by friction. The higher the ceiling, the higher the amount of

Re: Factory Mutual Data Sheet 2.0 - Sprinkler Orientation and Spacing

2012-05-28 Thread bcasterline
Of course! the thought never occurred to me. it is not just the volume of liquid water that makes it to the fire- that is just a number that gives the amount of heat it can absorb on the return trip to the sprikler! Genius! Quoting mphe...@aerofire.com: Most of the delivered density is

an initial density/area modification shot

2012-05-29 Thread bcasterline
area tied to occupancy: min. ft2 -- L.H.=1000, O.H.1=1500, O.H.2=2000. density tied to ceiling height for all 3 cases = .08 gpm/ft2 times sprinkler height in feet. Any takers? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Re: an initial density/area modification shot

2012-05-29 Thread bcasterline
dang me and typing numbers-- should be .008, not .08 Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com: area tied to occupancy: min. ft2 -- L.H.=1000, O.H.1=1500, O.H.2=2000. density tied to ceiling height for all 3 cases = .08 gpm/ft2 times sprinkler height in feet. Any takers?

minimum 7 PSI end head logic, check please!

2012-06-03 Thread bcasterline
Fact: a minimum pressure is required to 'push the stopper out of the orifice' once the 'link has broken'. This means the column of water above the head has to be at least 16 feet tall. (i wonder if this is enough for the 'bigger stoppers' of today, but I'll trust the manufacturers). An

Re: RPZ for a dedicated private underground fire mains having fire hydrants

2012-06-05 Thread bcasterline
accounting departments see plus signs when they see marketing department, lunch n learn, and regulatory agencies on the same spread sheet line lol (and some consulting engineering firms). Steve- can you explain the USC friction loss graphs? there is some diff in turning on and turning off?

RE:RTI

2012-06-07 Thread bcasterline
correction, meter, not feet. i should have looked in 13 instead of trying to recall and thinking i needed to convert. but i now have another (perhaps stupid) question re the definition of fast response and standard response: if fast is RTI=50 or less and standard is 80 or more, what is in

RE: 2007 12.2.1 Small hose stations

2012-06-08 Thread bcasterline
BEWARE Ron-- for some arrangements, the '02 requires more water than the 07, so if you have to use one or the other in its entirety you will want to know exactly what you looking at, whether it makes sense or not! Quoting Bob b...@firebyknight.com: If memory serves me well, which it

RE: 2007 12.2.1 Small hose stations

2012-06-08 Thread bcasterline
maybe backwards again-- main thing is look at both editions carefully is the only help i can offer... Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com: BEWARE Ron-- for some arrangements, the '02 requires more water than the 07, so if you have to use one or the other in its entirety you will want to know

RE: 2007 12.2.1 Small hose stations

2012-06-08 Thread bcasterline
maybe backwards again-- main thing is look at both editions carefully is the only help i can offer... Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com: BEWARE Ron-- for some arrangements, the '02 requires more water than the 07, so if you have to use one or the other in its entirety you will want to know

RE: 2007 12.2.1 Small hose stations

2012-06-08 Thread bcasterline
How do you take them out but provide equivalent protection. this is the key question Chris Cahill. it means the '07 must require more auto water than the '02, and no manual water, and let's the the person who knows where the rubber meets the road make the final call :) Quoting

Re: Radio Station Broadcast Studios

2012-06-14 Thread bcasterline
i don't get it yet Ed. luckily it is after hours so i don't have to. Are the 2 key points normally energized and all but 1 link knocked out? Quoting Ed Vining edvinin...@gmail.com: A story I have repeated often. Sometime after Adam was kicked out of Eden KQED TV in San Francisco had an

RE: BIG BOY HEADS

2012-06-19 Thread bcasterline
Vince, no, not exactly yet. If you are calcing a certain number of heads, the shape factor is not applicable. If you are calcing an area per FM, the shape factor is tied to ceiling slope, as I posted. This is not 'word of mouth', but my understanding from what I found in FM's data sheet on

Re: Hanger Spacing

2012-07-03 Thread bcasterline
who knows chris? 15 max btwn heads, 1 hngr per head=15 max btwn hngrs? 13 is a standard-- you ever had a STANDARD JOB? standard vs. performance is mutually exclusive. 13 is the result of engineering, broken down in to tables of 'best fit', i.e., ok, lots of 16 inch beams, plus 6= 22 max,

Re: Stage/platform

2012-07-28 Thread bcasterline
Look on the bright side here Steve- if the AHJ declares it Ord Haz II, you could spec high temp, standard response heads, and the successful contractor can finally use those old pendent heads that've been taking up shop space. Is EVERYTHING ever finally said about ANY sprinkler code issue?

Re: Stage/platform

2012-07-28 Thread bcasterline
one of these days: .008 GPM per sq.ft. per feet ceiling height over entire STAGE-FORM area, (1) 1.5 hose valve w/30' hose and extinguisher in cabinet centered on back wall, intermediate temp, standard coverage, QR heads. ___ Sprinklerforum

an ice plug 'by the way'

2012-08-09 Thread bcasterline
for the same reason we do not want to screw a dry pend into a 1 C.I. 90 looking down, we should not screw a dry pend into a 1 pipe-o-let looking down--the top of the dry pend does not make it above the bottom of the pipe so after the hydro water sits on top of it and if it freezes it

Re: Remote Area Question

2012-08-23 Thread bcasterline
well... i'm not a lost cause yet. i'll give it some more thought. thanks. Quoting Roland Huggins rhugg...@firesprinkler.org: I was hoping I'd be able to convert you :) The question of the most demanding would be WHICH cross main you drop the rectangle on. Roland On Aug 23, 2012, at 1:48

RE: Antifreeze Update

2012-08-28 Thread bcasterline
search this forum for 'calcium chloride'- there are issues with that too i know, but nothing that could not be resolved. the reason you mix it slowly is bcoz heat is generated, which tells me we pre-combust it. with a pressure tank as the approved water supply, bfp's, tapping fees, etc go

Re: thermal barrier

2012-09-01 Thread bcasterline
the old.edu in me suggests putting 1 head in the 47 and calling the other 2 bathrooms closets. ps- *persuing, not perusing ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Re: 4-WAY BRACING INCLUDING PRYING ACTION ON FASTNERS PER OSHPD'S OPA#601

2012-09-16 Thread bcasterline
George, I have never had to, am away from my desk, and would rather not aswer a question with a question, or be overly general, but I would like to know the extent of your problem-- how many risers (vertical pipes) do you have to brace? I have to admit I think there is some confusion on

Re: Sprinkler head Temperature requirement

2012-09-30 Thread bcasterline
all i got is some numbers: 27' ceiling height, 9 deflector distance, couch on fire in the middle of a large, open furniture showroom--- 286F, standard response- activation time = 188 seconds 286F, quick response- activation time = 172 seconds 212F, standard response- activation time = 97

Re: Sprinkler head Temperature requirement

2012-09-30 Thread bcasterline
!EXACTLY! Ron :) I never try to predict anything, per se, I try to find the DIFFERENCE between scenarios, in this case the same Ceiling Height and Heat Release Rate versus sprinkler Temp and RTI. For a benchmark, I found the steady state HRR that would activate a 286 SR in ~180 seconds,

all i got is some numbers- Act II (final)

2012-10-01 Thread bcasterline
In the recent 'Temperature Rating...' post I said: 286 SR, activation time = 188 seconds 286 QR, activation time = 172 seconds 212 SR, activation time = 97 seconds 212 QR, activation time = 80 seconds This was with a fire directly under the head, with a fire that grew from 0 to ~1000

RE: Fire pump annual test

2012-10-03 Thread bcasterline
Tom, I guess once we equate what goes out of the tachometer with what goes into the thermometer, the speed does not change-- the magic of the second law of thermodynamics! (or, as you put it-- 'Pump affinity'). Quoting Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net: Brad, we measure rpm as a means of

Re: Fire pump annual test

2012-10-03 Thread bcasterline
thanks DJJ8389, that's what I thought. I guess electric motor drive is more consistent and closer to expectations than engine driven. As far as Tom's 'adjusting the pressure to rated speed' goes though, with electric we are at the mercy of the local Power and Light, whereas with engine

Re: Concealed space or not

2012-10-04 Thread bcasterline
Needs 4-6 heads, since it is a mechanical room, Ord. Haz. I. Non-accesible or limited access relates to FINISH (i.e., non-walkable ceilings). Walkable ceilings are called floors the next level up by A.H.Js. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list

Re: Fire pump annual test

2012-10-06 Thread bcasterline
George, 78% efficient at overload.. not too shabby! Do you recall the rated RPM? If I assume a 14 impeller diam. I get 2600 RPM. I thought about converting the 400 speed reduction to the pump room temperature rise but said nahhh.. it would be negligible against the 1st law of testosterone,

Re: Fire pump annual test

2012-10-06 Thread bcasterline
on 2nd thought (calc), 65-70% is closer, I bet. 78% is 4500 @ 170. by the way, what does PLD stand for? Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com: George, 78% efficient at overload.. not too shabby! Do you recall the rated RPM? If I assume a 14 impeller diam. I get 2600 RPM. I thought about converting

Re: 13R balcony protection

2012-10-12 Thread bcasterline
words vs numbers, 'true' only at the middle of the aisle ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum

Re: 13R balcony protection

2012-10-14 Thread bcasterline
STINKY gets my vote Ron, as most descriptive for some of the numbers I have posted (the ones that come from the other end of my mouth). All I can say is excuse me. Today I will model a sidewall sticking out over a balcony, with and without overhangs and attic eaves, using different size

Re: Wood pellet manufacturing

2012-10-16 Thread bcasterline
First thing, verify the spelling? If it is pellets, OH2 for the actual manufacturing area and OH4.5 and double the outside hose for the areas where they get bunched up awaitng shipment. What are they used for anyway, sling-shot amo? Quoting Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com: Any insight into

Re: Wood pellet manufacturing

2012-10-20 Thread bcasterline
EH1 pipe scheduled tree system Todd, 17/32, 286, SSU-- over every sq ft under roof. What normal Sprinkler Contractor includes special nozzles to guard against auto-ignition in the hammermill? Talk about shielded! We all need all the work we can get these days. I'm pretty sure this has

Re: New Jersey

2012-11-04 Thread bcasterline
i look forward to the day when the east coast and the heart of the country are once again in equillibrium John. I survived a tornado in Ruskin Heights Missouri in 1957 so i can ONLY imagine the hardship for you and yours right now. Quoting John Drucker jdruc...@redbanknj.org: Great sight

Re: Pipe support spacing requirements for structural supports

2012-11-10 Thread bcasterline
instead of Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, how about Benchmark to Determine Just how far from Reality the Actual Situation IS from what Is Written Here-In, Now let's See the Numbers? Quoting Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com: Email needs a Like button. On Sat, Nov 10,

RE: NFPA 25

2012-11-12 Thread bcasterline
I know of a contractor that sends an inspection fitter out to inspect the original installation! this fitter's feet DOES leave the floor, and scours the Standards for total compliance. This way, if the original installer loses the I.T,M, nothing should come back to bite them so hard they

Re: water storage tank: 300,000 gallon size: failure: FL not NY

2012-11-16 Thread bcasterline
the fill line would only have city water behind it, where-as the metered return would have the fire pump behind it, meaning the metered return could enter the tank anywhere and still prevail, but there would be an elevation where the fill would be unable to STUFF more water in--

Re: water storage tank: 300,000 gallon size: failure: FL not NY

2012-11-16 Thread bcasterline
on the other hand, a vortex might relieve pressure on the circumference. i think it was a matter of like chris said-- a vaccumnn was drawn, if only for an instant, allowing the weight of the ocean of air above it to CRUSH it. Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com: the fill line would only have

Re: water storage tank: 300,000 gallon size: failure: FL not NY

2012-11-17 Thread bcasterline
no way Bruce-- impossible to overfill or over-pressurize this type of water storage tank Quoting Bruce Verhei bver...@comcast.net: Or the opposite. Tank provided with in adequate atomospheric ventilation, overfilled, and pressurized. But I'd much rather hear from someone who has facts

Re: water storage tank: 300,000 gallon size: failure: FL not NY

2012-11-17 Thread bcasterline
i guess i could run some numbers BEFORE i run my mouth. i think it imploded as opposed to exploded-- is their any doubt it did one or the other? i got this weekend off, so i'll give it more thought, including the doubt. Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com: no way Bruce-- impossible to

Re: water storage tank: 300,000 gallon size: failure: FL not NY

2012-11-17 Thread bcasterline
The tank did not burst. Tornados do not blow the roof off a house, even though the news might say it did. A slight atmospheric pressure difference does phenomenal things to structures. A full and pressurized (with water) tank would be like a reading at churn. So it either 'shivered' as

Re: 2010 NFPA 13: high piled storage: in-rack and ceiling sprinklers: riser coverage areas: performance based

2012-11-24 Thread bcasterline
scot, play like there was not one single control valve in the whole sheebang, calc every head in the airspace above a certain floor area untill you find the most demanding (balanced at the ONE common point, then add 'system control valves based on ease of maitenance :). i think this is

RE: Sprinklers under platforms

2012-11-30 Thread bcasterline
does anybody else find the fact that the floor itself is an obstuction to pattern development a bit disturbing? at 6 feet between sprinklers with 7 inch max deflector above the floor, the 'dry spots' are going to be 2 or 3 feet long! Quoting rfletc...@aerofire.com: 8.15.6.1 refers to

RE: Sprinklers under platforms

2012-11-30 Thread bcasterline
Perfect examples of the limitations of 13 as a Standard. Question: Does a 50 sqare ceiling cloud require heads above and below? Definatley below, but what if the distance from the main ceilinf to the cloud does not exceed 12, or 22? For some reason, upon reading the original post I thought

RE: Sprinklers under platforms

2012-11-30 Thread bcasterline
none of us likes gray Chris, least of all we engineering technicians, since our job is to ensure the intent of you EORs and AHJs is APPLIED to the physical reality of the field. To do this we need measuring devices (things with numbers on them). But if your intents do not come with

RE: Water damage from multiple opened sprinklers

2012-11-30 Thread bcasterline
Dear @riskmanage, there is no similar experience: this is a clear case of present/former drinking buddy vandalism. the report from the municipality is superfulous (a worker there noticed a spike in usage, shut it down, drove around town, saw no prob., brought it back up). By this time the

Re: advice

2012-12-13 Thread bcasterline
i vote for forgiveness all around, this one time. Quoting Justin Reid justinreid00...@gmail.com: And the reviewer stated it as though it was fact. This comment has the potential to harm this persons ability to conduct business and make a living. If Steve's remedy is not effective, I would

Re: Combustible Concealed Space

2012-12-18 Thread bcasterline
I don't get this, Rons. Are you talking about what NFPA 5000 was supposed to become 30 years ago? That was also the deadline for converting to metric. But since the American West was not won 25.4 millimeters by 25.4 millimeters, but inch by inch, and most systems are installed on Earth, we

Re: Combustible Concealed Space

2012-12-18 Thread bcasterline
not messing with you Ron-- i totally do not understand how words can better describe the built environment better than numbers, i.e., Code=Words, Standard=Numbers. i am terrible with numbers, as you know, and have warned me about (i was an English major when i dropped out of college), but

Re: Combustible Concealed Space

2012-12-18 Thread bcasterline
the French invented the System Internationale, and decided MASS would be their ONE. In English, FORCE is ONE. Since pressure is force/area, and force is mass times acceleration, and 'most systems are installed on the Earth', why should sprinks convert? The beauty of multiples of ten is

let's get this forum started

2012-12-26 Thread bcasterline
who's had enough turkey/ham/brisket and specialty dishes for about a year? It is what it will be minus what it was. ~~~Brad Casterline, circa 2 months ago~~~ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

Re: Auxiliary Dry Pipe Question

2012-12-28 Thread bcasterline
Hey Vince! I think the intent of a main drain test is to check the 'status' of the automatic water supply near the source, at acceptance, and regulary to catch and unacceptable degradation. I might be wrong though, since i have only thought that for about 2 minutes so far. HNY 2 U 2! Brad

Re: Maximum in-rack sprinkler spacing - plastic over 25ft

2013-01-15 Thread bcasterline
GREAT SCOTT!! i mean, great, scott. i have to admit i cringed a bit at 5' spacing-- SIX is The Minimum! but that's when max deflector distance is also in play :) you have inspired me to post a test question (test because i already know the answer-- the job went out a couple years ago)

can an extended coverage pendent be used in a ceiling cloud with a slope of 3 in 12?

2013-01-15 Thread bcasterline
?.light hazard, 20x20 cloud, head listed as Quick Response at 20x20, centered in the cloud. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum

Re: Maximum in-rack sprinkler spacing - plastic over 25ft

2013-01-15 Thread bcasterline
beside myself with... shame-- i mispelled your good name.. please forgive me scot. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum

Re: FP/Building Development Services: what qualifications are required of new plan review hirees, and what qualities make for a good plan reviewer

2013-01-27 Thread bcasterline
to realize it takes a village to raise a good system. no single pe, tech, reviewer, installer, or inspector should think they alone can do that. since humility is an accurate estimate of one's ability and importance, i think you hit the nail on the head scot. (r.i.p., the perished, and

RE: Window sprinklers

2013-02-21 Thread bcasterline
I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated is no longer approved. Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com: Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if you

Re: Window sprinklers

2013-02-21 Thread bcasterline
I beg the Forum's pardon. I should know better than to post from home (snow day in Kansas. I have a good memory, it's just short). I think vertical mullions not being an obstruction makes sense though, otherwise the listing would not distiguish? Quoting Justin Reid

RE: Window sprinklers

2013-02-22 Thread bcasterline
Well.. each mullioned section would mean vertical, since horizontal are not allowed. This means the water has to run accross the glass, not just down. I saw the width of it running down, regardless of vertical mullions as the max horizontal spacing. I think a case for be made for not

Re: 10 Pipe Diameters

2013-03-07 Thread bcasterline
Generally speaking, sprinkler flows are in the turbulent range. For a double suction pump, water splits and enters the impeller eye from both sides. To avoid uneven wear on the bearings, the velocity at each side should be equal. Witn a vertical ell, this would be the case. For a

Re: Seismic and ASCE 7

2013-03-14 Thread bcasterline
I think the most important factor is Is it an essential facility, like hospital, fire station, police station, after an event. a warehouse would not be. Quoting Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com: Hmmm, maybe just my West Coast interpretation. I've never done anything without bracing.

Re: Seismic and ASCE 7

2013-03-14 Thread bcasterline
I would rather not leave it up to someone to tell me where it would be required, what with sink holes swallowing men as they sleep, and as the reward for a nice drive hitting the fairway (the increase in fracing and the New Madrid fault, etc). I would rather keep it almost as simple as

Re: Glycerine Viscosity in Centipoise?!?!?!

2013-03-24 Thread bcasterline
Ralphy, I made a spreadsheet a while back to work the Darcy-Weisbach friction loss formula 'by hand'. The kinematic viscosity is a required input, and is the absolute viscosity divided by the density. I wanted to be able to vary the temperature too, and since density is a function of

Re: Glycerine Viscosity in Centipoise?!?!?!

2013-03-24 Thread bcasterline
and p.s. regarding your 'hat in hand' feeling: nothing about any of this is easy, and it never will be ~me~ just now Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com: Ralphy, I made a spreadsheet a while back to work the Darcy-Weisbach friction loss formula 'by hand'. The kinematic viscosity is a required

Re: Glycerine Viscosity in Centipoise?!?!?!

2013-03-26 Thread bcasterline
-- imagine parallel steel plates 1 foot apart (top and bottom), with a fluid in-between-- if the top plate is 1 square foot, the viscosity of the fluid would be a measure of the force required to slide the top plate with a velocity of 1 foot per second. Correction: the top plate does not

Re: Glycerine Viscosity in Centipoise?!?!?!

2013-03-26 Thread bcasterline
Ralphy, I predict you will be sizing an expansion chamber soon. Since chambers only come in so many sizes, and if you are uneasy about what the maximum static pressure at the chamber might be, you might consider this: maximum system static = ((vec - Delta L) * wp) / vec, where: vec =

numbers for low, moderate, and high

2013-03-28 Thread bcasterline
well--so far, a number for Low Heat Release Rate from NFPA 13, if Low means Light Hazard, and Light Hazard means .1 GPM/SQ FT: 744 kilowatt per square meter. The inherent safety factor here is that 100% of the fuel mass is converted to heat, i.e., not one ash or piece of soot left over

Re: numbers for low, moderate, and high

2013-03-29 Thread bcasterline
I will try to type ledgeably using numbers that will leave no doubt. Before a proposed change proving equivalency can be considered, equivalent has to be established. I had almost lost hope thinking proving eqivalency meant first meeting a 3X safety factor, and it still might-- i still

sprinkler thesaurus

2013-03-31 Thread bcasterline
NFPA 13: 1) The Red Book Escutcheon: 1) Canopy, 2) Beauty Ring Welded, threaded, female outlet: 1) Pipe-o-let Grooved coupling: 1) Vic, 2) Groover Drip Cup: 1) Slobber Cup, 2) Dookie Does that about cover it, or are there any other names for Velocity Check, Grooved Stubby, etc? ED? George?

just for fun--sprinkler thesaurus

2013-03-31 Thread bcasterline
1) NFPA 13 a) The Red Book b) ? 2) Welded, Threaded, Female Outlet a) Pipe-O-Let b) ? 3) Escutheon a) Canopy, b) Beauty Ring c) ? 4) Grooved coupling? a) ? b) Vic 5) Dookie 6) Velocity Check 7) Grooved Stubby 8) thru 12) ? ___ Sprinklerforum

Re: sprinkler thesaurus

2013-03-31 Thread bcasterline
ROSETTE! a new one on me-- i love it from down south no doubt? Quoting drm...@swbell.net: -Original Message- From: bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: sprinkler thesaurus NFPA 13: 1) The Red Book Escutcheon:

Re: sprinkler thasaurus

2013-04-05 Thread bcasterline
new this week: rosette, mud leg, stub chuck, jodi blond. still nothing for velocity check... Mr. Vinning? Vince? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum

Re: Is there enough room under a low ceiling for different, but similar, hydraulic designs?

2013-04-06 Thread bcasterline
good question Scot. I only have my '07 on me but I want to read parameter #2 as For OH2 and less. Brad Quoting å... eurekaig...@gmail.com: 2010 NFPA 13 Was it the intention, to the best of our collective imaginations, that Section 11.2.3.2.3.1 meant to include *both* LH and OH

Re: Is there enough room under a low ceiling for different, but similar, hydraulic designs?

2013-04-07 Thread bcasterline
Thanks for this Scot! In pondering this I finally discovered what I believe is the equivalency and reasoning behind QR Reduction: It reduces the amount of time the fire department has to respond based on ceiling height. This makes total sense because the lower the ceiling the faster the

Re: Is there enough room under a low ceiling for different, but similar, hydraulic designs?

2013-04-07 Thread bcasterline
Bruce- I will go out on a Forum limb here and say regarding control mode of accidental fires in terms of water application versus burning rate there is only ONE BUFFER. It is huge, but it is not man-made. Imagine an abandoned wood shack in the middle of nowhwere, struck by lightning,

RE: Sizing cantilevered hangers

2012-04-19 Thread bcasterline
Mike, Yes there is a straight forward way to get the required section modulus for a cantalevered trapeze member: weight (lb) * distance (inches) / 15000. For example, hanging 4 Sch. 10 24 off a joist (say to the right)-- 15 feet of water-filled pipe plus 250 lbs = 426.7 lb, * 24 = 10,240.8,

RE: Water testing volumes

2012-04-20 Thread bcasterline
Todd, I wonder if there is any way the fire department could use thier pumper and hose to make a loop between two hydrants, and put a venturi flow meter in the curcuit? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org

RE: Water testing volumes

2012-04-21 Thread bcasterline
I gave up on the flow meter bypass idea- the Health Department would throw a fit. I think JM Elect. has a great idea. The FD has water measuring/transport know-how and apparatus. On thier way to the flow test they could do Grass Fire training at the park, then re-fill the tank with an

RE: k -- WHAT?

2012-04-23 Thread bcasterline
good eye! i happen to know it gets pretty hot in Ohio geo. even w/o a fire. i was lucky to start there, and trained by The Greatest Sprink Whom Ever Lived (thanks Vince). George, please google brad casterline, i am the first two, ask me 2 B ur FB friend, please, i would gladly accept and

Re: Longitudinal Bracing Question

2017-07-28 Thread bcasterline
"(as much as 4 feet away)?" If you could get the main with-in 2 feet of the nearest joist you could stub out a 1x2-0 with a cap and put a lateral brace on it, or do that to a branch line if available. (See the fairly recent thread on Longitudinal Braces for CPVC Mains). Hopefully Ken

Re: Longitudinal Bracing Question

2017-08-03 Thread bcasterline
Well I finally read the book and now I have to correct myself- from 13-2016: 9.3.5.5.8 Lateral braces shall be allowed to act as longitudinal braces if they are within 24 in. (600 mm) of the centerline of the piping braced longitudinally and the lateral brace is on a pipe of equal or

Re: Jet/impulse fans

2017-08-16 Thread bcasterline
I could sit and talk with you about this until the cows come home Nicky but I don't want Roland to have to 'make that face' at me ever again. (lol mphelps). So I'll just say I have the experience (10 yrs) and the software (exactly as referenced in your bottom link) necessary to address all

Re: Jet/impulse fans

2017-08-14 Thread bcasterline
I will check your links tomorrow Nicky- they look interesting. I've worked on several systems in Qatar. Qatar Civil Defense has very detailed requirements for fire modeling these systems, and negative impact on sprinkler activation is not mentioned. These small impulse fans direct the car

Re: Quick-Response Sprinklers in Storage/Extra Hazard

2017-08-10 Thread bcasterline
Thanks Roland. This was just an activation comparison based on the calc rules in 13 for EH. Some rules apply no matter what happens after activation. I don't consider the rules for EH and Storage to be interchangeable in this regard. EH sprinkler rules are mostly for SSU and SSP. Storage

Re: Longitudinal Bracing Question

2017-08-01 Thread bcasterline
From 13-2016: 9.3.5.11.5 All parts and fittings of a brace shall lie in a straight line to avoid eccentric loadings on fittings and fasteners. The above means, to me anyway, that it is NOT ok to kick the longitudinal brace out at an angle as seen in plan view. In this way I think that is an

Re: Longitudinal Bracing Question

2017-08-01 Thread bcasterline
Thanks Ken. I was referring to this: * The only "angle" which really applies in providing longitudinal bracing is the measurement from vertical. That angle must be at least 30° and have a maximum of 90° from vertical (which is perfectly horizontal, and would make the brace parallel to

Re: Quick-Response Sprinklers in Storage/Extra Hazard

2017-08-09 Thread bcasterline
Quoting bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com: Make that 46% increase. If we started with 2500 and reduced to 2000 for using 286F (SR) because of the reasoning, "fewer heads would go off", we would have to go the other direction for QR. 2500x1.3=3250. I did a quick activation comparison with 286F SR

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