Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

[Roland Huggins]

This is one of the issue where we were pushing the rock up the hill because it 
made no sense to limit it to an opening on one side.  SO to poke a hole in 
Kyle’s approach, common sense said “do what” but the standard was quite 
explicit in it’s requirements.  As such, it requires an open minded AHJ to 
consider an equivalency.


Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org 

Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives




> On Apr 16, 2018, at 9:56 AM, Ed Kramer  wrote:
> 
> It appears the 2019 edition of 13 will delete the “on only one side” part of 
> 8.15.23.3 (renumbered as 9.3.14.3).  Assuming the change makes it through the 
> process, that gives me a much better comfort level to go to the AHJ and ask 
> for a variance.  Thank you to all who responded.
>  
> Ed Kramer
> Bamford Fire
>  
>  
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

[AKS-Gmail-IMAP]

Yes, that is right and in practice you can run into a lot of application 
problems which is why this construction needs to be nipped in the bud as early 
as possible if it can be nipped.

The very first fact that needs to be determined is whether or not the building 
code requires a fire or smoke rated separation between that mechanical space 
and the other spaces. There can be a separation requirement, in which case the 
room requires a lid or full height walls having at least one side drywalled. 
The sprinkler issue goes away.

The application problems occur when you run into the other systems where the 
upper sprinkler layer is supposed to be. For example the space above might be 
paved in HVAC ducts.

This open condition occurs in many forms. A simple form is the janitor’s closet 
that was supposed to have a ceiling where the general contractor decides not to 
install. Sometimes we’ll see a sprinkler hanging in the breeze ready for the 
ceiling and sometimes we’ll see an upright placed by a thoughtful fitter.

A more complicated condition is the totally enclosed data center hot aisle 
returning into an above ceiling open plenum return space where the required hot 
return air opening equals all of the ceiling space in the hot aisle. An 
enclosed hot aisle is where walls and doors are at equipment rack aisle ends. 
The racks discharge hot air sideways into the aisle space. A divider closes off 
the space between the rack tops and the ceiling. In this scheme the idea is to 
remove the “used” cooling air so that it cannot mix with cooling air.

This might happen when a conventionally designed data center, i.e. raised floor 
with a ceiling, is upgraded with super high power density server racks that 
require so much heat rejection airflow that by the book the entire ceiling area 
must be egg crate if anything. The enclosed hot aisle condition basically 
creates the same room without a ceiling condition. Applying "the standard" 
spins into endless issues being in a space where most are religiously 
hydrophobic and also where systems might also be a bit exotic.   

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO


> On Apr 16, 2018, at 10:17 AM, Nick Maneen <nman...@sentryfp.com> wrote:
> 
> I’m not going to shoot holes in it.  I like it.  It makes sense.
>  
> Nick Maneen, SET 
> c 704.791.7789
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:49 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls
>  
> Are we SURE that 8.15.23.3 isn’t intended to be used in these situations?
>  
> I know it says “on only one side”, but I think we might be interpreting that 
> incorrectly. It is saying that the unsprinklered space is adjacent to the 
> sprinklered space on only one side, not the other way around.
>  
> So, while the sprinklered space (the mechanical room in this case) is open to 
> the unsprinklered space on 4 sides (assuming the room is a rectangle)… you 
> could say there are four unsprinklered spaces (north, south, east, and west) 
> that are each open to the sprinklered space on only one side.
>  
> In reality, it’s more like one giant unsprinklered space with a hole in the 
> middle.
>  
> I would say that this scenario doesn’t match up very well with the wording of 
> the code, or the figure, but that is more due to the literary difficulty of 
> explaining this scenario. However, I would think that if you carried 
> sprinkler protection the appropriate distance (half the remote area) out from 
> all sides around the room then that meets the INTENT of this section pretty 
> well. I mean, you would end up with a little more than a full remote area of 
> sprinkler heads above the ceiling, centered around the area we would expect 
> the fire to originate, so how is that not adequate protection.
>  
> Now someone shoot some holes in my theory.
>  
> -Kyle M
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] On Behalf Of Ben 
> Young
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2018 9:16 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls
>  
> I have to constantly remind the estimators that 8.15.23.3 only works if it's 
> open on one side. 
>  
> Every time this had come up after we are awarded the project we've managed to 
> convince the GC or owner to add a ceiling in these small rooms.
>  
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 6:49 PM John Irwin <john.ir...@dynafire.com 
> <mailto:john.ir...@dynafire.com>> wrote:
>> I've seen this. Never had too much trouble 

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

[Ed Kramer]

It appears the 2019 edition of 13 will delete the “on only one side” part of 
8.15.23.3 (renumbered as 9.3.14.3).  Assuming the change makes it through the 
process, that gives me a much better comfort level to go to the AHJ and ask for 
a variance.  Thank you to all who responded.

 

Ed Kramer

Bamford Fire

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Nick Maneen
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:17 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

 

I’m not going to shoot holes in it.  I like it.  It makes sense.

 


Nick Maneen, SET 

c 704.791.7789

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:49 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

 

Are we SURE that 8.15.23.3 isn’t intended to be used in these situations? 

 

I know it says “on only one side”, but I think we might be interpreting that 
incorrectly. It is saying that the unsprinklered space is adjacent to the 
sprinklered space on only one side, not the other way around. 

 

So, while the sprinklered space (the mechanical room in this case) is open to 
the unsprinklered space on 4 sides (assuming the room is a rectangle)… you 
could say there are four unsprinklered spaces (north, south, east, and west) 
that are each open to the sprinklered space on only one side. 

 

In reality, it’s more like one giant unsprinklered space with a hole in the 
middle.

 

I would say that this scenario doesn’t match up very well with the wording of 
the code, or the figure, but that is more due to the literary difficulty of 
explaining this scenario. However, I would think that if you carried sprinkler 
protection the appropriate distance (half the remote area) out from all sides 
around the room then that meets the INTENT of this section pretty well. I mean, 
you would end up with a little more than a full remote area of sprinkler heads 
above the ceiling, centered around the area we would expect the fire to 
originate, so how is that not adequate protection.

 

Now someone shoot some holes in my theory.

 

-Kyle M

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Ben Young
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2018 9:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

 

I have to constantly remind the estimators that 8.15.23.3 only works if it's 
open on one side. 

 

Every time this had come up after we are awarded the project we've managed to 
convince the GC or owner to add a ceiling in these small rooms.

 

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 6:49 PM John Irwin <john.ir...@dynafire.com 
<mailto:john.ir...@dynafire.com> > wrote:

I've seen this. Never had too much trouble getting a ceiling added when I give 
them the add alternate for installing sprinklers at the roof. 

Checking wall heights is usually one of the first things I do when opening a 
fresh set of plans. Half a dozen different color highlighters and a cup of 
coffee... 

John Irwin 

DynaFire Inc. 

Tampa Fire Sprinkler Division 

727-282-9243 

This email was sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, typographical 
errors, and grammatical gaffes.

On Apr 13, 2018, at 6:42 PM, Ed Kramer <e...@bamfordfire.com 
<mailto:e...@bamfordfire.com> > wrote:

This is something we’re seeing occasionally and I’m wondering if others are 
seeing it also.

 

A typical office area within a noncombustible building.  All rooms within the 
greater area have lowered finished ceilings, are mostly light hazard, and the 
space above is noncombustible and (almost) concealed.  A small mechanical room 
(or 2 or 3) is located among the various offices.  This mech room is less than 
130 sf, so the floor area can be protected with 1 sprinkler.  However, the A/E 
has decided this room doesn’t need a ceiling and the perimeter walls can stop 
6” above the ceiling height of the adjacent rooms.  This makes the space above 
the surrounding offices noncombustible but not truly concealed.  See below. 

 

 

 

NFPA 13 (2013) tells me I have to sprinkler the entire noncombustible space 
above the offices.  8.15.23.3 doesn’t apply since it’s open on all 4 sides.  
We’re working with GC to convince them to add a ceiling or to extend the walls 
up to the roof deck.  It’s just way too easy to overlook this kind of seemingly 
minor detail when bidding, and difficult to get a change order (or 
walls/ceilings added) after the contract’s signed.

 

So, just wondering if anybody else is seeing this issue.

 

Ed Kramer

Bamford Fire

 

Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

[Nick Maneen]

I’m not going to shoot holes in it.  I like it.  It makes sense.

 


Nick Maneen, SET 

c 704.791.7789

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:49 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

 

Are we SURE that 8.15.23.3 isn’t intended to be used in these situations? 

 

I know it says “on only one side”, but I think we might be interpreting that 
incorrectly. It is saying that the unsprinklered space is adjacent to the 
sprinklered space on only one side, not the other way around. 

 

So, while the sprinklered space (the mechanical room in this case) is open to 
the unsprinklered space on 4 sides (assuming the room is a rectangle)… you 
could say there are four unsprinklered spaces (north, south, east, and west) 
that are each open to the sprinklered space on only one side. 

 

In reality, it’s more like one giant unsprinklered space with a hole in the 
middle.

 

I would say that this scenario doesn’t match up very well with the wording of 
the code, or the figure, but that is more due to the literary difficulty of 
explaining this scenario. However, I would think that if you carried sprinkler 
protection the appropriate distance (half the remote area) out from all sides 
around the room then that meets the INTENT of this section pretty well. I mean, 
you would end up with a little more than a full remote area of sprinkler heads 
above the ceiling, centered around the area we would expect the fire to 
originate, so how is that not adequate protection.

 

Now someone shoot some holes in my theory.

 

-Kyle M

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Ben Young
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2018 9:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

 

I have to constantly remind the estimators that 8.15.23.3 only works if it's 
open on one side. 

 

Every time this had come up after we are awarded the project we've managed to 
convince the GC or owner to add a ceiling in these small rooms.

 

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 6:49 PM John Irwin <john.ir...@dynafire.com> wrote:

I've seen this. Never had too much trouble getting a ceiling added when I give 
them the add alternate for installing sprinklers at the roof. 

Checking wall heights is usually one of the first things I do when opening a 
fresh set of plans. Half a dozen different color highlighters and a cup of 
coffee... 

John Irwin 

DynaFire Inc. 

Tampa Fire Sprinkler Division 

727-282-9243 

This email was sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, typographical 
errors, and grammatical gaffes.

On Apr 13, 2018, at 6:42 PM, Ed Kramer <e...@bamfordfire.com> wrote:

This is something we’re seeing occasionally and I’m wondering if others are 
seeing it also.

 

A typical office area within a noncombustible building.  All rooms within the 
greater area have lowered finished ceilings, are mostly light hazard, and the 
space above is noncombustible and (almost) concealed.  A small mechanical room 
(or 2 or 3) is located among the various offices.  This mech room is less than 
130 sf, so the floor area can be protected with 1 sprinkler.  However, the A/E 
has decided this room doesn’t need a ceiling and the perimeter walls can stop 
6” above the ceiling height of the adjacent rooms.  This makes the space above 
the surrounding offices noncombustible but not truly concealed.  See below. 

 

 

 

NFPA 13 (2013) tells me I have to sprinkler the entire noncombustible space 
above the offices.  8.15.23.3 doesn’t apply since it’s open on all 4 sides.  
We’re working with GC to convince them to add a ceiling or to extend the walls 
up to the roof deck.  It’s just way too easy to overlook this kind of seemingly 
minor detail when bidding, and difficult to get a change order (or 
walls/ceilings added) after the contract’s signed.

 

So, just wondering if anybody else is seeing this issue.

 

Ed Kramer

Bamford Fire

 

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RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

[Kyle.Montgomery]

Are we SURE that 8.15.23.3 isn’t intended to be used in these situations?

I know it says “on only one side”, but I think we might be interpreting that 
incorrectly. It is saying that the unsprinklered space is adjacent to the 
sprinklered space on only one side, not the other way around.

So, while the sprinklered space (the mechanical room in this case) is open to 
the unsprinklered space on 4 sides (assuming the room is a rectangle)… you 
could say there are four unsprinklered spaces (north, south, east, and west) 
that are each open to the sprinklered space on only one side.

In reality, it’s more like one giant unsprinklered space with a hole in the 
middle.

I would say that this scenario doesn’t match up very well with the wording of 
the code, or the figure, but that is more due to the literary difficulty of 
explaining this scenario. However, I would think that if you carried sprinkler 
protection the appropriate distance (half the remote area) out from all sides 
around the room then that meets the INTENT of this section pretty well. I mean, 
you would end up with a little more than a full remote area of sprinkler heads 
above the ceiling, centered around the area we would expect the fire to 
originate, so how is that not adequate protection.

Now someone shoot some holes in my theory.

-Kyle M

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Ben Young
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2018 9:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

I have to constantly remind the estimators that 8.15.23.3 only works if it's 
open on one side.

Every time this had come up after we are awarded the project we've managed to 
convince the GC or owner to add a ceiling in these small rooms.

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 6:49 PM John Irwin 
<john.ir...@dynafire.com<mailto:john.ir...@dynafire.com>> wrote:
I've seen this. Never had too much trouble getting a ceiling added when I give 
them the add alternate for installing sprinklers at the roof.
Checking wall heights is usually one of the first things I do when opening a 
fresh set of plans. Half a dozen different color highlighters and a cup of 
coffee...
John Irwin
DynaFire Inc.
Tampa Fire Sprinkler Division
727-282-9243
This email was sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, typographical 
errors, and grammatical gaffes.
On Apr 13, 2018, at 6:42 PM, Ed Kramer 
<e...@bamfordfire.com<mailto:e...@bamfordfire.com>> wrote:
This is something we’re seeing occasionally and I’m wondering if others are 
seeing it also.


A typical office area within a noncombustible building.  All rooms within the 
greater area have lowered finished ceilings, are mostly light hazard, and the 
space above is noncombustible and (almost) concealed.  A small mechanical room 
(or 2 or 3) is located among the various offices.  This mech room is less than 
130 sf, so the floor area can be protected with 1 sprinkler.  However, the A/E 
has decided this room doesn’t need a ceiling and the perimeter walls can stop 
6” above the ceiling height of the adjacent rooms.  This makes the space above 
the surrounding offices noncombustible but not truly concealed.  See below.




NFPA 13 (2013) tells me I have to sprinkler the entire noncombustible space 
above the offices.  8.15.23.3 doesn’t apply since it’s open on all 4 sides.  
We’re working with GC to convince them to add a ceiling or to extend the walls 
up to the roof deck.  It’s just way too easy to overlook this kind of seemingly 
minor detail when bidding, and difficult to get a change order (or 
walls/ceilings added) after the contract’s signed.


So, just wondering if anybody else is seeing this issue.


Ed Kramer
Bamford Fire



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Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

[Ben Young]

I have to constantly remind the estimators that 8.15.23.3 only works if
it's open on one side.

Every time this had come up after we are awarded the project we've managed
to convince the GC or owner to add a ceiling in these small rooms.

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 6:49 PM John Irwin  wrote:

> I've seen this. Never had too much trouble getting a ceiling added when I
> give them the add alternate for installing sprinklers at the roof.
>
> Checking wall heights is usually one of the first things I do when opening
> a fresh set of plans. Half a dozen different color highlighters and a cup
> of coffee...
>
> John Irwin
> DynaFire Inc.
> Tampa Fire Sprinkler Division
> 727-282-9243
>
> This email was sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity,
> typographical errors, and grammatical gaffes.
> On Apr 13, 2018, at 6:42 PM, Ed Kramer  wrote:
>
>> This is something we’re seeing occasionally and I’m wondering if others
>> are seeing it also.
>>
>>
>>
>> A typical office area within a noncombustible building.  All rooms within
>> the greater area have lowered finished ceilings, are mostly light hazard,
>> and the space above is noncombustible and (almost) concealed.  A small
>> mechanical room (or 2 or 3) is located among the various offices.  This
>> mech room is less than 130 sf, so the floor area can be protected with 1
>> sprinkler.  However, the A/E has decided this room doesn’t need a ceiling
>> and the perimeter walls can stop 6” above the ceiling height of the
>> adjacent rooms.  This makes the space above the surrounding offices
>> noncombustible but not truly concealed.  See below.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> NFPA 13 (2013) tells me I have to sprinkler the entire noncombustible
>> space above the offices.  8.15.23.3 doesn’t apply since it’s open on all 4
>> sides.  We’re working with GC to convince them to add a ceiling or to
>> extend the walls up to the roof deck.  It’s just way too easy to overlook
>> this kind of seemingly minor detail when bidding, and difficult to get a
>> change order (or walls/ceilings added) after the contract’s signed.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, just wondering if anybody else is seeing this issue.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ed Kramer
>>
>> Bamford Fire
>>
>>
>>
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>>
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Re: Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

[John Irwin]

I've seen this. Never had too much trouble getting a ceiling added when I give 
them the add alternate for installing sprinklers at the roof.

Checking wall heights is usually one of the first things I do when opening a 
fresh set of plans. Half a dozen different color highlighters and a cup of 
coffee...

⁣John Irwin 
DynaFire Inc. 
Tampa Fire Sprinkler Division 
727-282-9243 

This email was sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, typographical 
errors, and grammatical gaffes.​

On Apr 13, 2018, 6:42 PM, at 6:42 PM, Ed Kramer  wrote:
>This is something we're seeing occasionally and I'm wondering if others
>are
>seeing it also.
>
>
>
>A typical office area within a noncombustible building.  All rooms
>within
>the greater area have lowered finished ceilings, are mostly light
>hazard,
>and the space above is noncombustible and (almost) concealed.  A small
>mechanical room (or 2 or 3) is located among the various offices.  This
>mech
>room is less than 130 sf, so the floor area can be protected with 1
>sprinkler.  However, the A/E has decided this room doesn't need a
>ceiling
>and the perimeter walls can stop 6" above the ceiling height of the
>adjacent
>rooms.  This makes the space above the surrounding offices
>noncombustible
>but not truly concealed.  See below.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>NFPA 13 (2013) tells me I have to sprinkler the entire noncombustible
>space
>above the offices.  8.15.23.3 doesn't apply since it's open on all 4
>sides.
>We're working with GC to convince them to add a ceiling or to extend
>the
>walls up to the roof deck.  It's just way too easy to overlook this
>kind of
>seemingly minor detail when bidding, and difficult to get a change
>order (or
>walls/ceilings added) after the contract's signed.
>
>
>
>So, just wondering if anybody else is seeing this issue.
>
>
>
>Ed Kramer
>
>Bamford Fire
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Mech room sans ceiling & full height walls

[Ed Kramer]

This is something we're seeing occasionally and I'm wondering if others are
seeing it also.

 

A typical office area within a noncombustible building.  All rooms within
the greater area have lowered finished ceilings, are mostly light hazard,
and the space above is noncombustible and (almost) concealed.  A small
mechanical room (or 2 or 3) is located among the various offices.  This mech
room is less than 130 sf, so the floor area can be protected with 1
sprinkler.  However, the A/E has decided this room doesn't need a ceiling
and the perimeter walls can stop 6" above the ceiling height of the adjacent
rooms.  This makes the space above the surrounding offices noncombustible
but not truly concealed.  See below. 

 



 

NFPA 13 (2013) tells me I have to sprinkler the entire noncombustible space
above the offices.  8.15.23.3 doesn't apply since it's open on all 4 sides.
We're working with GC to convince them to add a ceiling or to extend the
walls up to the roof deck.  It's just way too easy to overlook this kind of
seemingly minor detail when bidding, and difficult to get a change order (or
walls/ceilings added) after the contract's signed.

 

So, just wondering if anybody else is seeing this issue.

 

Ed Kramer

Bamford Fire

 

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