RE: Lumberyard fire flows

2018-02-23 Thread Steve Leyton
Thanks Larry.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 7:54 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

[This message was identified as a phishing scam. Learn about phishing at 
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My bad. There was a typo in my original message.  I was trying to refer to 
A.31.3.3.2.2,  but I dropped the first "3".

Here is what A.31.3.3.2.2 from the 2018 edition says:

A.31.3.3.2.2   It is recognized that retail and wholesale lumber storage yards 
are normally located within municipal system boundaries, where the system 
should be capable of supplying not less than four 21⁄2 in. (65 mm) hose streams 
simultaneously [1000 gpm (4000 L/min)]. Where large-scale firefighting 
operations can be expected, larger water supplies are needed. Where protection 
from municipal water supplies and hydrant systems is not provided or is not 
considered adequate by the AHJ, a yard fire hydrant system should be provided 
and installed in accordance with NFPA 24.

Larry


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-23-18 10:38 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

I'm sorry Larry, not following.  Those section numbers not found in the Annex 
of 2015 edition either.

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 7:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

[This message was identified as a phishing scam. Learn about phishing at 
http://aka.ms/LearnAboutPhishing]

I was citing the NFPA 1 - 2015 edition.

Larry

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-22-18 5:47 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

Which edition are you citing?  2018 doesn't have those Annex sections.

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 2:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

[This message was identified as a phishing scam. Learn about phishing at 
http://aka.ms/LearnAboutPhishing]

NFPA 1 in A.1.3.3.2.2 and A.3.4.3.1 provides some guidance regarding flow and 
hydrant spacing for outside storage such as you are dealing with.

Best regards,

Larry Keeping

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-22-18 1:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Lumberyard fire flows

This isn't a sprinkler question specifically, but FP-related:   Has anyone ever 
worked on design of a private fire main for a lumberyard?   Huge outdoor piles 
of stored wood products, engineered members mostly, some smaller amounts of 
dimensional lumber. We're trying to establish a fire flow for hydrants but 
there are no buildings of any size to benchmark and tables in the fire code are 
not of much use because they're based on building area and construction type.   
The fire load here is not in buildings ...

[Steve Signature (3)]

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RE: Lumberyard fire flows

2018-02-23 Thread Larry Keeping
My bad. There was a typo in my original message.  I was trying to refer to 
A.31.3.3.2.2,  but I dropped the first "3".

Here is what A.31.3.3.2.2 from the 2018 edition says:

A.31.3.3.2.2   It is recognized that retail and wholesale lumber storage yards 
are normally located within municipal system boundaries, where the system 
should be capable of supplying not less than four 21⁄2 in. (65 mm) hose streams 
simultaneously [1000 gpm (4000 L/min)]. Where large-scale firefighting 
operations can be expected, larger water supplies are needed. Where protection 
from municipal water supplies and hydrant systems is not provided or is not 
considered adequate by the AHJ, a yard fire hydrant system should be provided 
and installed in accordance with NFPA 24.

Larry


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-23-18 10:38 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

I'm sorry Larry, not following.  Those section numbers not found in the Annex 
of 2015 edition either.

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 7:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

[This message was identified as a phishing scam. Learn about phishing at 
http://aka.ms/LearnAboutPhishing]

I was citing the NFPA 1 - 2015 edition.

Larry

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-22-18 5:47 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

Which edition are you citing?  2018 doesn't have those Annex sections.

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 2:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

[This message was identified as a phishing scam. Learn about phishing at 
http://aka.ms/LearnAboutPhishing]

NFPA 1 in A.1.3.3.2.2 and A.3.4.3.1 provides some guidance regarding flow and 
hydrant spacing for outside storage such as you are dealing with.

Best regards,

Larry Keeping

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-22-18 1:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Lumberyard fire flows

This isn't a sprinkler question specifically, but FP-related:   Has anyone ever 
worked on design of a private fire main for a lumberyard?   Huge outdoor piles 
of stored wood products, engineered members mostly, some smaller amounts of 
dimensional lumber. We're trying to establish a fire flow for hydrants but 
there are no buildings of any size to benchmark and tables in the fire code are 
not of much use because they're based on building area and construction type.   
The fire load here is not in buildings ...

[Steve Signature (3)]

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RE: Lumberyard fire flows

2018-02-23 Thread Steve Leyton
I'm sorry Larry, not following.  Those section numbers not found in the Annex 
of 2015 edition either.

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 7:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

[This message was identified as a phishing scam. Learn about phishing at 
http://aka.ms/LearnAboutPhishing]

I was citing the NFPA 1 - 2015 edition.

Larry

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-22-18 5:47 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

Which edition are you citing?  2018 doesn't have those Annex sections.

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 2:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

[This message was identified as a phishing scam. Learn about phishing at 
http://aka.ms/LearnAboutPhishing]

NFPA 1 in A.1.3.3.2.2 and A.3.4.3.1 provides some guidance regarding flow and 
hydrant spacing for outside storage such as you are dealing with.

Best regards,

Larry Keeping

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-22-18 1:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Lumberyard fire flows

This isn't a sprinkler question specifically, but FP-related:   Has anyone ever 
worked on design of a private fire main for a lumberyard?   Huge outdoor piles 
of stored wood products, engineered members mostly, some smaller amounts of 
dimensional lumber. We're trying to establish a fire flow for hydrants but 
there are no buildings of any size to benchmark and tables in the fire code are 
not of much use because they're based on building area and construction type.   
The fire load here is not in buildings ...

[Steve Signature (3)]

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RE: Lumberyard fire flows

2018-02-23 Thread Larry Keeping
I was citing the NFPA 1 - 2015 edition.

Larry

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-22-18 5:47 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

Which edition are you citing?  2018 doesn't have those Annex sections.

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 2:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

[This message was identified as a phishing scam. Learn about phishing at 
http://aka.ms/LearnAboutPhishing]

NFPA 1 in A.1.3.3.2.2 and A.3.4.3.1 provides some guidance regarding flow and 
hydrant spacing for outside storage such as you are dealing with.

Best regards,

Larry Keeping

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-22-18 1:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Lumberyard fire flows

This isn't a sprinkler question specifically, but FP-related:   Has anyone ever 
worked on design of a private fire main for a lumberyard?   Huge outdoor piles 
of stored wood products, engineered members mostly, some smaller amounts of 
dimensional lumber. We're trying to establish a fire flow for hydrants but 
there are no buildings of any size to benchmark and tables in the fire code are 
not of much use because they're based on building area and construction type.   
The fire load here is not in buildings ...

[Steve Signature (3)]

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RE: Lumberyard fire flows

2018-02-22 Thread Steve Leyton
Which edition are you citing?  2018 doesn't have those Annex sections.

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Larry Keeping
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 2:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Lumberyard fire flows

[This message was identified as a phishing scam. Learn about phishing at 
http://aka.ms/LearnAboutPhishing]

NFPA 1 in A.1.3.3.2.2 and A.3.4.3.1 provides some guidance regarding flow and 
hydrant spacing for outside storage such as you are dealing with.

Best regards,

Larry Keeping

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-22-18 1:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Lumberyard fire flows

This isn't a sprinkler question specifically, but FP-related:   Has anyone ever 
worked on design of a private fire main for a lumberyard?   Huge outdoor piles 
of stored wood products, engineered members mostly, some smaller amounts of 
dimensional lumber. We're trying to establish a fire flow for hydrants but 
there are no buildings of any size to benchmark and tables in the fire code are 
not of much use because they're based on building area and construction type.   
The fire load here is not in buildings ...

[Steve Signature (3)]

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RE: Lumberyard fire flows

2018-02-22 Thread Larry Keeping
NFPA 1 in A.1.3.3.2.2 and A.3.4.3.1 provides some guidance regarding flow and 
hydrant spacing for outside storage such as you are dealing with.

Best regards,

Larry Keeping

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: February-22-18 1:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Lumberyard fire flows

This isn't a sprinkler question specifically, but FP-related:   Has anyone ever 
worked on design of a private fire main for a lumberyard?   Huge outdoor piles 
of stored wood products, engineered members mostly, some smaller amounts of 
dimensional lumber. We're trying to establish a fire flow for hydrants but 
there are no buildings of any size to benchmark and tables in the fire code are 
not of much use because they're based on building area and construction type.   
The fire load here is not in buildings ...

[Steve Signature (3)]

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Re: Lumberyard fire flows

2018-02-22 Thread Bruce Verhei
In the end if you can’t confirm by a rational analysis that supports a 
reasonable goal, (extinguish a fire of X size, if that fails protect important 
on site exposures and all off site exposures) require ‘technical assistance ‘. 

Best.

> On Feb 22, 2018, at 12:44, Bruce Verhei  wrote:
> 
> Steve
> 
> You are required to calculate flows by an ‘approved method’.
> 
> If you haven’t previously put out for public comment and signed a scheme for 
> this I’d see what is already in use.
> 
> You might consider FMGlobal Data Sheet 7-10, 2-2.5. 
> 
> Before I went very far with this I’d compare pile sizes, fire access lanes 
> and widths to the sizes the IFC uses. Are the comparable?
> 
> And I’d ask how much water do you reserve for exposures.
> 
> Are they involving an insurance firm that has an engineering review section. 
> They’re often quite helpful. 
> 
> Locations of hydrants. Fire suppression activities are not helped if during 
> the fight you need to relocate engines as the plastic light bars are melting, 
> the paint is darkening, and the glass is crazing.
> 
> And equipment is heavy. You might confirm that the CE is considering this in 
> pipe type, depth, and bedding.
> 
> And are you in freezing country?
> The water just sits there. Enumclaw WA is not especially cold country. But a 
> root cause of failure to extinguish a fire in a Weyerhaeuser mill was a 
> frozen main. It was a little more complicated than that, but in the end an 
> ice plug occurred. Total loss of course. 
> 
> Best.
> 
> Bruce Verhei 
> 
>> On Feb 22, 2018, at 10:54, Steve Leyton  wrote:
>> 
>> This isn't a sprinkler question specifically, but FP-related:   Has anyone 
>> ever worked on design of a private fire main for a lumberyard?   Huge 
>> outdoor piles of stored wood products, engineered members mostly, some 
>> smaller amounts of dimensional lumber. We're trying to establish a fire 
>> flow for hydrants but there are no buildings of any size to benchmark and 
>> tables in the fire code are not of much use because they're based on 
>> building area and construction type.   The fire load here is not in 
>> buildings ...
>> 
>> [Steve Signature (3)]
>> 
>> -- next part --
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Re: Lumberyard fire flows

2018-02-22 Thread Bruce Verhei
Steve

You are required to calculate flows by an ‘approved method’.

If you haven’t previously put out for public comment and signed a scheme for 
this I’d see what is already in use.

You might consider FMGlobal Data Sheet 7-10, 2-2.5. 

Before I went very far with this I’d compare pile sizes, fire access lanes and 
widths to the sizes the IFC uses. Are the comparable?

And I’d ask how much water do you reserve for exposures.

Are they involving an insurance firm that has an engineering review section. 
They’re often quite helpful. 

Locations of hydrants. Fire suppression activities are not helped if during the 
fight you need to relocate engines as the plastic light bars are melting, the 
paint is darkening, and the glass is crazing.

And equipment is heavy. You might confirm that the CE is considering this in 
pipe type, depth, and bedding.

And are you in freezing country?
The water just sits there. Enumclaw WA is not especially cold country. But a 
root cause of failure to extinguish a fire in a Weyerhaeuser mill was a frozen 
main. It was a little more complicated than that, but in the end an ice plug 
occurred. Total loss of course. 

Best.

Bruce Verhei 

> On Feb 22, 2018, at 10:54, Steve Leyton  wrote:
> 
> This isn't a sprinkler question specifically, but FP-related:   Has anyone 
> ever worked on design of a private fire main for a lumberyard?   Huge outdoor 
> piles of stored wood products, engineered members mostly, some smaller 
> amounts of dimensional lumber. We're trying to establish a fire flow for 
> hydrants but there are no buildings of any size to benchmark and tables in 
> the fire code are not of much use because they're based on building area and 
> construction type.   The fire load here is not in buildings ...
> 
> [Steve Signature (3)]
> 
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RE: Lumberyard fire flows

2018-02-22 Thread Prahl, Craig/GVL
The 2015 IFC states:
LUMBER YARDS AND AGRO-INDUSTRIAL, SOLID BIOMASS AND WOODWORKING FACILITIES
2809.5 Fire protection. An approved hydrant and hose system
or portable fire-extinguishing equipment suitable for the
fire hazard involved shall be provided for open storage yards.
Hydrant and hose systems shall be installed in accordance
with NFPA 24. Portable fire extinguishers complying with
Section 906 shall be located so that the distance of travel
from the nearest unit does not exceed 75 feet (22 860 mm).


To get that "approved hydrant and hose system" we'd typically have a layout 
showing the yard and anticipated loading.  Take that to the local fire code 
official (FCO) and talk about what kind of flow is available (I've have gotten 
this from local water purveyor before meeting the FCO).  If you only have 1500 
gpm flow rate available at 20 psi for example, how many hydrants will have to 
be involved with how many pumpers for the required hose streams.  We also talk 
about apparatus access through the yard and minimum aisle widths and turn radii 
so the owner knows there are stacking limitations.

Some of the answers depend on how the local FD is equipped.  

I agree, this is not a building related issue and even if there were a building 
on site, providing adequate resources for fighting a yard fire is a totally 
different hazard from a building.  

Also, for industrial or high flow rate areas I typically spec out the American 
Flow Control's American Darling Industrial hydrant with the 6" valve opening in 
lieu of the standard commercial hydrant with the 4.5 - 5" valve opening.  The 
AFC American-Darling hydrant # is B84B-BB-5. These can typically deliver up to 
4800 gpm through the 4.5" pumper connection at 100 psig.  

A lot of times we've just gotten hydrant spacing recommendations with no 
specific pressure or flow rates required.  I guess most FDs have resolved that 
they will get what they get and do the best with that.  


Craig L. Prahl 
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
Direct - 864.920.7540
Fax - 864.920.7129
Direct Extension  77540
CH2M is now Jacobs.
200 Verdae Blvd.
Greenville, SC  29607
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.jacobs.com

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Lumberyard fire flows [EXTERNAL]

This isn't a sprinkler question specifically, but FP-related:   Has anyone ever 
worked on design of a private fire main for a lumberyard?   Huge outdoor piles 
of stored wood products, engineered members mostly, some smaller amounts of 
dimensional lumber. We're trying to establish a fire flow for hydrants but 
there are no buildings of any size to benchmark and tables in the fire code are 
not of much use because they're based on building area and construction type.   
The fire load here is not in buildings ...

[Steve Signature (3)]

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