Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] [SLOBS] Debian complaints

2016-12-18 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi Tony and others,

Excerpts from Tony Anderson's message of December 17, 2016 9:05 pm:
It appears that the Debian repository, if updated for 0.110 and then 
passing the Debian test procedures should be the proper basis for a 
Raspbian and Ubuntu release.


Thanks for your interest in the Debian packaging of Sugar!

Sugar 0.110 libraries, and up-to-date activities Browse, Chat, Image
Viewer, Jukebox, Log, Pippy, Read, Terminal, and Write, were all
recently prepared and if all goes well will be part of upcoming Debian
release (which will enter "freeze" state in few weeks and might be ready
some time in Spring).


I would hope our community has some one with the skills and 
determination to take this on.


Anyone interested in helping out with packaging Sugar for Debian is most
welcome. You do *not* need to be an official Debian developer (we only
need some of those in our team to formally release our work, and I can
do that).

More information, both on how to follow the Debian progress more closely
and how to join, is at https://wiki.debian.org/Sugar

I see no need for tighter coordination between Debian and Sugarlabs for
this: Sugarlabs does a fine job publishing its code and announcing
releases.  What is needed is people able and interested in running
Debian and testing the packages - and people helping create packages - for
Debian.

Regards,

- Jonas
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar on Ubuntu

2016-07-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Tony Anderson (2016-07-01 14:54:12)
> I believe this version comes from OLPC (James Cameron). This version 
> includes valuable changes to the structure of Sugar. However, 
> sugar-bundle-install apparently was not updated to reflect this. 
> Similarly, the permissions on this version must be set up to share 
> activities between users, which is not relevant to the XO 
> implementation where there is one user - olpc.

My comment was about how to most optimally address bugs in code not 
developed as part of Sugarlabs, but instead hacked on by a downstream 
(re)distributor.

If you insist on handling external code as if part of Sugarlabs (i.e. by 
reporting bugs in it on a mailinglist tied to Sugarlabs rather than the 
(re)distributor), then go ahead - you don't need my permission.

...but please do not try convince me that it is most sensible.

When you one day stumble upon a bug in the Debian-derived Sugar packages 
I would very much appreciate being informed about it *in* *Debian* - 
please do *not* expect downstream developers to follow this list.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar on Ubuntu

2016-07-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Tony Anderson (2016-07-01 13:01:43)
> I installed Sugar 0.107 on Ubuntu 14.04 as described in 
> https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Ubuntu.
> 
> Activities in this version are at /usr/share/sugar/activities not 
> /usr/olpc/Activities. However, sugar-install-bundle
> installs activities at /usr/username/Activities not in 
> /usr/share/sugar/activities. As a result, the activity is not available 
> in the List view.
> The activities in /usr/share/activities need 755 permission not 700 as 
> given by sugar-install-bundle.
> 
> Incidentally, Ubuntu has changed the login screen. The choice of 
> desktops is not made with a small icon at the top right of the login 
> screen, not by an icon on the login itself.

I recommend you to report that issue to the distributor, since seemingly 
they altered the code as part of their (re)distribution of Sugar.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Fwd: [Pkg-sugar-devel] sugar is marked for autoremoval from testing

2016-06-24 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Tony Anderson (2016-06-24 13:13:57)
> I subscribed to the list because there seemed to be a lot of sugar 
> activity.

I appreciate your interest.


> I have been dismayed by the frequent threats to drop Sugar or a 
> critical component. At one point, the messages suggested that the 
> automated testing scripts could not even read the license text at the 
> beginning of a module.

Please discuss Debian packaging at the dedicated mailinglist.

Makes good sense to share here what you learn from following those 
activities in Debian, but taking details out of context is not helping.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Fwd: [Pkg-sugar-devel] sugar is marked for autoremoval from testing

2016-06-24 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Hi Tony!

First of all: Thanks for your interest in Debian packaging of Sugar!

Quoting Tony Anderson (2016-06-24 08:25:07)
> Does anyone know what this is all about? How has Debian packaged Sugar 
> in one package?
> What is the difference, if any, between 0.106 as released and 0.106.1-1? 
> Does this one package
> include the essential activities? Does it include both sugar and sugar3?

That warning - and your questions here - are specific to the Debian 
packaging of Sugar.

Possibly https://wiki.debian.org/Sugar already answers your questions - 
else feel free to ask such questions at our mailinglist referenced at 
that wiki page.


 - Jonas

P.S. If you received the warning email through some Sugarlabs list, then 
someone has subscribed that list to receive automated messages from 
Debian, which is bad: Don't tell robots to receive robot-generated 
messages aimed at human.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Discussion platform

2016-04-27 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Utkarsh Tiwari (2016-04-27 15:32:26)
> In a recent chat with Mr. Sebastian Silva, he shared the need to 
> change out general discussion platform from 'mailing list' to some 
> other platforms like - gitter.com or loomio.org to gain community 
> consensus on a specific topic.
> There isn't too much activity on #sugar either.
>
> What would you guys suggest?

You would get rid of me if switching from current standards-protocol 
mail and irc to walled-garden gitter.  Not that I carry much weight.

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Active development

2016-04-18 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Dave Crossland (2016-04-18 17:28:06)
> On 18 April 2016 at 00:03, Tony Anderson <tony_ander...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>> Very much so. Currently the focus is writing activities using 
>> javascript (sugar-web-activities). These activities work in Sugar 
>> exactly as do the Python-base activities. They also work on Sugarizer 
>> requiring only a standard browser. New Python-based activities are 
>> also welcome.
>
> I spent a lot of time yesterday reading about the history of 
> smalltalk, and it seems undervalued.
>
> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/search?q=squeak=all 
> only produces 1 result, etoys.
>
> Are any other activities written in squeak? Can other activities be 
> made within etoys?

Etoys is arguably a World of activities.

I am involved with developing Debian - the universal operating system, 
and find it odd when people are counting the number of derivatives.  
Seems similar to your asking how many Worlds like eToys exist.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Python is good - don't waste time (was Re: The future of Sugar on XO-1s)

2016-04-06 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Walter Bender (2016-04-06 16:41:07)
> On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Dave Crossland <d...@lab6.com> wrote:
>> Off the top of my head, here are 3 projects that adapt the software 
>> freedom movement to the model:
>>
>> http://sandstorm.io
>> https://owncloud.org
>> https://unhosted.org
>>
>
> UnHosted is pretty interesting.

Unhosted is rather vague.

I find SoLiD quite interesting: 
https://github.com/solid/solid-spec#overview

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Python is good - don't waste time (was Re: The future of Sugar on XO-1s)

2016-04-06 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Dave Crossland (2016-04-06 14:42:57)
> On 6 April 2016 at 02:59, <sam@sam.today> wrote:
>
>> You can install GNU on a chromebook, you can install GNU on computer, 
>> you can install GNU on some tablets.  Those are the pedagogic devices 
>> of now and the future.  Those run faster with Gtk than with WebKit.
>
>
> Will devices running GNU and Sugar desktops get into the hands of most 
> of the world's poor children in the next 10 years?

Devices *not* running GNU (and therefore Sugar desktop) are likely 
devices not in the control of its owner.

Underlying question is therefore if it matters that the device "in the 
hands" of those kids is in their own control or not.

Only if it does not matter is it relevant to consider throwing away the 
work done developing Sugar-atop-a-POSIX-system and instead invest only 
in developing Sugar-atop-a-web-browser.

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Flash on Browse Activity - Ubuntu

2016-03-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Sebastian Silva (2016-03-01 17:21:07)
> On 01/03/16 10:16, Gustavo Duarte wrote:
>> If mostly Browser  are supporting Flash, like Firefox, Chrome and
>> Epiphany, why Browse Activity, not ? 
>> Browse is based on Webkit (Chrome and Safari also) and Webkit support 
>> Flash.

Google-based browsers originally derived their _rendering_ engine on 
Webkit, but you need to check which _plugin_ API is used.

Mozilla-based browsers use NPAPI for their plugins, Google-based 
browsers use PPAPI plugins. I don't know which API Webkit-based browsers 
use, if any at all.


> This is really not true. Only Chrome supports flash, with an in-house 
> proprietary plugin from Google. The rest, all try to use the last know 
> - faulty and insecure - unsupported 11.x plugin released several years 
> ago. Firefox is in the process of killing the old plugin API too.

Not quite true: Wrappers exist to use the Google (PPAPI) plugin in 
Mozilla (NPAPI) browsers: https://github.com/i-rinat/freshplayerplugin

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [Announcing] UNSTABLE 0.107.1 release (feature freeze)

2016-01-05 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Sam P. (2016-01-04 16:34:33)
> This is serious.  If an activity wants to work in collaboration mode 
> on a NEW version of telepathy gabble, it needs to be ported not to use 
> tubes.
>
> However, your activity will still work on OLPC OS 13/14, Fedora 21 and 
> before and on the current Debian (???).  Your activity will still work 
> everywhere in single user mode.

Unchanged activities will *not* work on current Debian.  Not stable, not 
testing, and not unstable.  Nor will they work with Ubuntu.

You might get them to work by adding "telepathy-gabble-legacy", but 
beware that that package is *old* and *unsupported* and *insecure*!

Likewise, support for conventional tubes-based collaboration on other 
systems - OLPC OS and Fedora - makes use of an outdated version of 
telepathy Gabble, which potentially is highly insecure to use.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [Announcing] UNSTABLE 0.107.1 release (feature freeze)

2016-01-05 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Samuel Greenfeld (2016-01-05 17:34:18)
> In general, many widely used Sugar distributions are based on 
> Operating Systems that are at least a few years old and full of 
> security holes.
>
> Bringing them up to date for computers like XOs that need updated 
> hardware drivers would require a fair amount of effort.  (Hence the 
> move by some groups to standardized hardware and Ubuntu for long-term 
> support.)
>
> The primary mitigating factors {if you could count them as such} are 
> that (1) many Sugar users are offline or barely online, and (2) the 
> obscurity of someone trying to hack telepathy versus using a wider 
> exploit against something like libjpeg or OpenSSL.
>
> But I wouldn't rely on obscurity as your sole protection.

The security flaws I suspect exist in legacy Gabble is indeed OpenSSL 
flaws.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration

2015-12-26 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Tony Anderson (2015-12-26 21:11:09)
> I guess you see how far out from the developer community I am. I 
> associate sucrose with Activity Central. I am not sure what a sucrose 
> developer is.

You need not know the details of how the parts of a code eco-system is 
divided in order to help: Report bugs to the corresponding issue 
tracker, and those who know better will pass on the information to the 
right part of the eco-system.

...but I strongly advice you to try not be judgemental without even 
understanding (just the very broad) anatomy of the thing you judge: Ask 
instead of judging!

What I am referring to is your telling (not asking) that GStreamer works 
fine, which spawned this subthread.


> The involved developers have been doing well. However, for many of the 
> activities in ASLO, the original contributors have moved on, a natural 
> situation in open source.

Sure it is natural for developers to move on, and as a consequence, it 
is natural for some projects (those left without active developers) to 
to stop working when the underlying environment develops.  Such 
situation is called "bit-rot", and calls for either new devoted 
developers to step in, or that code to be dropped.  In such situations 
it is not helpful to point at "the old code worked fine, there was no 
need to change anything" - if you wanna live in the past then simply 
don't upgrade the _whole_ system at all.


> There is no attempt to point fingers, the decision is there. If Sugar 
> is to move to the mobile device, it appears necessary to work in a 
> Javascript not Python environment. So an activity developer/maintainer 
> needs to decide whether his investment in time in GTK is warranted or 
> should be spent it in rewriting the activity as a Sugar-web-activity.

You bring Javascript into this conversation, not me.  For my part, we 
are talking about migration from GTK+ 2.x to GTK+ 3.x and how some 
activities fall behind in that transition.


Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration

2015-12-26 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Tony Anderson (2015-12-26 16:29:09)
> Yet more examples of this broken software problem.

I would call it examples of _unmaintained_ software.

I.e. in my opinion for these examples the Sugar environment does the 
right thing of both a) moving to GTK+ 3.x while b) providing legacy 
support for GTK+ 2.x for several years.  Issues then emerge with 
activities neglecting to migrate for several years to GTK+ 3.x.


> I have scripts which provide the 'bad and ugly' codecs for GStreamer 
> 0.10 which work very well.

Which codecs? GStreamer 1.0 also provides bad and ugly codecs - so an 
obvious first step is to ensure they are installed for your system.

In the case of the Debian system, installing the package 
sugar-jukebox-activity by default pulls in the bad set but you will need 
to explicitly install the ugly set (because the very reason those are 
shipped separately is that they may cause your system to become less 
stable).

If, on a Debian system, you install the metapackage sucrose then both 
the bad and ugly sets gets installed (always, not only by default, 
bcause the purpose of that metapackage is to ensure that as much of 
Sucrose as is packaged for Debian gets installed).


> I have had to regress to Jukebox 26 in order for this to work,

Sounds like you have done some research on this.  I recommend that you 
a) file a bugreport about this (if one is not filed already), and then 
b) refer to the bugreport each time you bring it up - e.g. in 
conversations like this one.



> Avoiding GTK + 2.x implies porting all 400 Sugar activities to GTK 3!

True - either that or ditch the activities evidently too badly 
maintained to work well with modern Sugar.



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of collaboration work

2015-12-26 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Tony Anderson (2015-12-26 15:31:16)
> Thanks. That sounds like enough to get me going. Sadly, this also 
> means porting to gtk3 but it will need to be done anyway.

Thanks - a hassle indeed, but urgently needed not only for 
collaboration:

  * GStreamer 0.10 (tied to GTK+ 2.x) is deprecated since some years
and is now dropped from Debian (and no doubt will be soon from
any other distro that haven't done that move already long ago).
  * Systems with small diskspace (e.g. XO-1) can free 200-300MB by
avoiding GTK+ 2.x altogether.

So if either a) your activity uses GStreamer and you care about having 
it running on new operating systems, or b) you care about old hardware, 
then you already need to migrate to GTK+ 3.x.


Regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration

2015-12-26 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Tony Anderson (2015-12-26 19:53:47)
[Jonas wrote:]
>> True - either that or ditch the activities evidently too badly 
>> maintained to work well with modern Sugar.
>
> Aye, There's the rub!
> 
> Is the problem 'bad maintenance or none at all' or 'modern' Sugar. 
> Certainly TuxMath is suffering from 'abandonment'. However, even 
> abandoned code continues to run when the underlying support is there. 
> In this case, programmers who were not involved in the development or 
> maintenance of the code will have to figure out how to get it running 
> again or rewrite it in Javascript.

Wrong: In this case all developers were involved at their various levels 
of the chains of events but some of them were inactive: GTK+ developers 
chose to improve their code beyond what a previous API could contain and 
sensibly bumped API and kept alive the previous API for ages.  Sucrose 
developers chose to build their code on top of GTK+ and sensibly handled 
the API split of GTK+ including maintenance of a legacy interface for 
ages.  Activity developers chose to build their code on top of Sucrose 
and some of them sensibly migrated to new interfaces, but sadly some 
activity developers did not react yet - and *that* is not sensible.


> The port of activities to GTK+ 3.x seems to have stalled because of 
> the higher priority to re-implement activities such as TurtleBlocks in 
> javascript. Consider the long-term job security in rewriting Sim City 
> in javascript as a Sugar-web-activity.

Are you pointing fingers at other volunteers choosing to spend their 
time in a way you disaprove of, or have you provided patches to migrate 
some activities but have been turned down?


> In the case of gstreamer 0.1, I was able to find how to install the 
> codecs:
[...]
> I am certainly sure that everyone is bored to tears on this subject 
> since I have mentioned it so many times already.

Did you "mention" it through the appropriate issue tracker?


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of collaboration work

2015-12-25 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
[dropping Cc's, assuming all are subscribed to -devel]

Quoting James Cameron (2015-12-26 08:58:13)
> Pull request 282 mentions 0.17.25, but of what package?  When did the 
> Tubes API get removed from the Telepathy packages?  Yes, for Fedora it 
> was 22, but we care about other downstreams.

telepathy-gabble is where Tubes interface was dropped.


> On Ubuntu 14.04 builds with Sugar 0.107.0, I'm using
[...]
> telepathy-gabble-legacy 0.16.7

> On Ubuntu 15.10 builds with Sugar 0.107.0, I'm using
[...]
> telepathy-gabble-legacy 0.16.7

Who _maintains_ that telepathy-gabble-legacy package?  I created such 
package and put it online at http://debian.jones.dk/ but was strongly 
adviced against releasing it officially to Debian (read: step up as 
maintainer for it) and decided to follow that advice mainly due to the 
security implications (the code is big and contains e.g. TLS code likely 
to be vulnerable to BEAST and other recent attacks which I am not 
skilled to fix).


> I don't have a test case for collaboration failure due to Tubes API 
> missing.  The feature page doesn't say.  I can't find a bug report.

As I recall, Chat via Jabber (i.e. when connected to a central server) 
uses Tubes.

Please someone correct me if wrong, and provide some other simple test..


> It would seem that the Tubes API was fairly critical to Sugar's 
> success.  ;-)

I wholeheartedly agree.  I decided to drop Sugar completely from what 
became the current stable release of Debian in the spring, when I 
learned about this bug after we had entered the "freeze" of that release 
about a year ago.  I dearly hope that Sugar can soon re-enter Debian 
testing again - not only for inclusion into next stable Debian, but also 
for the benefit of Debian derivatives invcluding Ubuntu (so please to 
not relax about the very slow release process of Debian).


Regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of collaboration work

2015-12-25 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting James Cameron (2015-12-26 10:07:11)
> On Sat, Dec 26, 2015 at 09:52:56AM +0530, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>> telepathy-gabble is where Tubes interface was dropped.
>
> Thanks!
>
> I wasn't sure it was, because Gabble is only used when operating with 
> Jabber/XMPP servers, and we also use Salut for link-local.
>
> So in the scenario where activities are collaborating over Salut, I 
> wonder how their use of Tubes is implemented, if at all.

Right - this issue is tied to Jabber transport!

I occasionally tested collaboration (when demo'ing to friends), but 
typically did so using Salut :-(


>> Who _maintains_ that telepathy-gabble-legacy package [which you use 
>> in Ubuntu-based Sugar]?
>
> Nobody at the moment.
> 
>> I created such package and put it online at http://debian.jones.dk/ 
>> but was strongly adviced against releasing it officially to Debian 
>> (read: step up as maintainer for it) and decided to follow that 
>> advice mainly due to the security implications (the code is big and 
>> contains e.g. TLS code likely to be vulnerable to BEAST and other 
>> recent attacks which I am not skilled to fix).
>
> I'm not aware of any reported vulnerabilities specific to the package.

Uhm, perhaps lack of reports is related to lack of maintainer to report 
it to :-P


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Fwd: [GSoC] query

2015-12-09 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Dear Shiva (cc the Sugarlabs developers in case others have interest),

Quoting Ignacio Rodríguez (2015-12-08 20:29:32)
> i develop Mobile and Web Applications using JAVA/javascript/Node.js,i 
> would like to work on projects for GSOC 2016 under guidance of 
> sugarlabs my github profile : github.com/shivasurya
> 
> I thought it would be a good idea to get in touch with the mentors for 
> some pointers to get started on these projects.

I cannot help you with your concrete request, unfortunately (my 
expertise is in a different field: packaging Sugar and other projects 
for Debian and Debian-based distributions).

I noticed, however, that you live in Madurai, India, which seems I will 
be passing right by with my partner and and another friend mid January.  
Would you be interested in a visit?  Perhaps some of your fellow 
students and teachers might be interested in meeting too?

See details of our journey at https://couchdesign.dk/india/

Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] XO-4 gerber files

2015-11-13 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 02:07:24AM -0500, abew1...@phenetics.com 
> wrote:
>> Does anyone have files for creating the XO-4 hardware? Our group 
>> wants to do some experiments on the hardware? Is it possible to get 
>> this?

Sounds like what your group are really interested in working with is 
Open Source Hardware (OSHW): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSHW

Beware of the similar but more relaxed term "Open hardware" which may 
have PDF files of print boards but lack source files for remodelling the 
wiring of those boards (e.g. to adjust for obsolete components).

Also beware that an OSHW board may include non-OSHW parts.  E.g. the CPU 
chip (or system-on-chip - SoC - chip) is rarely fully open, but also the 
board may be (properly) branded as OSHW even though including another 
smaller system-on-module (SoM) board which is not.


Quoting James Cameron (2015-11-13 09:10:10)
> Yes, we have the files, they are used by the factory.
> 
> No, you can't have them, sorry.

In other words: The business model used for XO laptops does *not* 
involve OSHW.

I believe no currently mass-produced laptops - neither sold on the open 
market nor ear-market for governments of developing countries - are 
OSHW.

The most promising projects on the horizon seems to be Olimex' OLinuXino 
A64 Laptop idea
https://olimex.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/a64-olinuxino-oshw-64-bit-arm-diy-laptop-idea-update/
and Bunnies Novena and Heirloom projects 
http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?cat=28


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] license of layout.py in Sugar Calculate activity

2015-07-27 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Gonzalo Odiard (2015-07-27 15:02:05)
 I already added license to layout.py 
 
 https://github.com/godiard/sugarlabs-calculate/commit/
 95302e66919ac89338a7a91575f9002dadb9218c
 
 Aneesh is not the copyright holder, he only contributed and added his name:
 
 https://github.com/godiard/sugarlabs-calculate/commit/
 e088b4a0cfbbe6fe7eab2c4ccf8e8b2f98553206

Uhm, above URLs proves - if anything - that indeed Aneesh a) did 
contribute code to that file and b) explicitly stated copyright claim 
for that contribution.

Others may have written other parts - majority parts even - which makes 
them _also_ copyright holders.  *All* copyright holders should be 
consulted when granting/changing licensing terms for a work.

Who did you consult, leading to the change in licensing that you did?


Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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[Sugar-devel] license of layout.py in Sugar Calculate activity

2015-06-18 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Hi Aneesh,

I maintain Sugar packaging of Sugar for Debian, and noticed that in the 
Calculate activity you've declared copyright for layout.py but not 
included a license.

Please always include an explicit license statement where a copyright is 
stated, because a lack of license statement does not mean look in same 
folder for a COPYING file but instead in many jurisdictions imply All 
rights reserved which I suspect was not your intention :-)

Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] license of layout.py in Sugar Calculate activity

2015-06-18 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Hi Martin (and cc others - also alternate address for Aneesh),

Quoting Martin Abente (2015-06-18 12:58:48)
 Thanks for taking the time to let us know. The new maintainer of 
 Calculate is Gonzalo (cc'ed).

 For future reference, you can check this [1] list to see who is 
 currently maintaining an activity (we certainly need to improve our 
 communication channels).

Thanks.

Specifically license statements cannot be issued by a(nother) 
maintainer, however, but require the copyright holder (or code rewrite 
to avoid contributions without proper licensing).

Reason I cc the general list is to share my point more broadly - not 
only with co-authors of that specific activity :-)


Regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] license of layout.py in Sugar Calculate activity

2015-06-18 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Hi Gonzalo,

Quoting Gonzalo Odiard (2015-06-18 13:33:57)
 In our project, is a common practice include a COPYING file in the 
 activity directory.
 Include the text on every file does not have sense for us,  more 
 thinking we still support old devices with few storage space, as the 
 XO-1.
 Could you clarify what are you asking for, specifically, please?
 In the next cycle I plan work on tools to make sure all the 
 information for packagers  is available n the activities. Is good have 
 you and others involved.

What I request is that you properly release your code as Free software.

Including a COPYING file (containing e.g. the full GPL v2 license) helps 
save space, so that each copyright holder need not repeat the full 
licensing terms but can refer to that common file.

The presence of a COPYING file do not imply anything being licensed, 
however: The COPYING file _is_ a license but does not _grant_ licensing.

Each and every copyright holder in a project need to license their 
contributions for the collective work to be Free software.  A common 
practice is to include copyright holders and licensing at the top of 
each source file (each copyright holder on one line with the years that 
copyright holder contributed to the file, and below the license).

Another practice is to list copyright holders and licensing terms as a 
summary in a file at the root dir of the project.  That practice may be 
adequate in tightly streamlined projects, but for Sugar projects which 
at its core strongly encourage copying code snippets and forking 
aggressively, I strongly recommend to embed the copyright and licensing 
in each file so it gets preserved when copying files across projects.

A project leader cannot state a license on behalf of other contributors, 
unless the contributors have handed over their copyright to the project 
leader (a practice common for some larger projects, e.g. the GNU 
project).


Concretely, I noticed a copyright statement for Aneesh in a file, with 
no corresponding licensing statement, and I request that Aneesh 
explicitly state the licensing of that file (e.g. GPL v2 or newer).

It is not the only inadequate licensing issue of that activity, but a 
more prominent flaw.  Most translation files are wrongly licensed too...


Hope that helps,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Bundlebuilder and mime-type related files

2015-05-26 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting Martin Abente (2015-05-25 20:21:55)
 So basically, there are 2 problems.

 1. symlinks creation during ./setup.py --install (for installing the 
 mimetypes.xml file .svg icons for mime types declared in 
 activity.info)  and,
 2. the execution of update-mime-database (which generates the database 
 files).

I agree with 1. but have not yet experienced 2. myself.

I would appreciate if you could provide steps to reproduce 2. on Debian, 
so that I can help investigate.

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Bundlebuilder and mime-type related files

2015-05-26 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting James Cameron (2015-05-26 10:03:00)
 On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 08:49:41AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
 Quoting Martin Abente (2015-05-25 20:21:55)
 So basically, there are 2 problems.

 1. symlinks creation during ./setup.py --install (for installing the 
 mimetypes.xml file .svg icons for mime types declared in 
 activity.info)  and,
 2. the execution of update-mime-database (which generates the 
 database files).

 I agree with 1. but have not yet experienced 2. myself.

 I would appreciate if you could provide steps to reproduce 2. on 
 Debian, so that I can help investigate.

 I've a system tracking Debian Stretch on which 2 can be reproduced, 
 using the Memorize-35 activity:

 a.  git clone 
 git://anonscm.debian.org/collab-maint/sugar-memorize-activity.git

 b.  edit /usr/bin/update-mime-database to show evidence of activation, 
 and print arguments, by adding a line:

 echo $0 $*

 c.  ./setup.py install

 In this context, outside of dpkg-buildpackage, the argument to 
 update-mime-database is /root/.local/share/mime, and is set in 
 activitybundle.py in python-sugar3 package.

 Hope that helps.

That is helpful, yes: I thought the problem was MIME database files 
ending up inside the package, but I do see now how the 
update-mime-database call generates those database files in XDG paths.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Fwd: Scratch source code version 1.4.0.6 released

2012-06-05 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
On 12-06-05 at 10:26am, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
 Begin forwarded message:
 
  From: Amos Blanton a...@scratch.mit.edu
  Subject: Scratch source code version 1.4.0.6 released
  Date: 5. Juni 2012 03:23:50 MESZ
  To: Linux Scratch li...@scratch.mit.edu, 
  scra...@lists.launchpad.net, Debian Bugs 471...@bugs.debian.org
  
  We've released an update to the GPL v2 Scratch source code , now 
  available here:
  
  http://download.scratch.mit.edu/scratch-1.4.0.6.src.tar.gz
  
  1.4.0.6 changes:
  * Fix for blank screen bug when image is run on current Squeak VMs 
(Thanks to Bert Freudenberg for the fix.)
  * Squeak source code for version of Scratch 1.4 modified for XO / 
Sugar
  
  Scratch On!
  Amos
  Scratch Team
 
 
 This now could be used to make a GPL Scratch activity.

Very exciting news!


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [Release] Calculate-40

2012-05-28 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
On 12-05-08 at 07:36pm, Gary Martin wrote:
 == Bundle ==
 
 http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/downloads/file/28026/calculate-40.xo
 
 == Source ==
 
 http://download.sugarlabs.org/sources/sucrose/fructose/Calculate/Calculate-40.tar.bz2

Please remember to tag the release in git.

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] eduJAM! and 1-to-1 week: information and scholarships

2012-04-19 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
On 12-04-19 at 11:43am, Pablo Flores wrote:
 We're very close to eduJAM! 2012, which will take place in May in 
 Montevideo, Uruguay. This time the summit doesn’t stand on its own but 
 is accompanied by a number of events which promise to provide 
 enriching meeting opportunities.

Wauw! That's a LOT going on there.

I am wondering: Would Debian packaging of Sugar be of any relevancy 
there?


Regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-04-12

2012-04-14 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
On 12-04-14 at 12:38pm, Chris Leonard wrote:
 2012/4/14 Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com:
  On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Chris Leonard 
  cjlhomeaddr...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Walter Bender 
  walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  During the conversation with the learning team, the topic of 
  nutrition came up. FZT is working with USAID on a nutrition 
  curriculum. We discussed ways to integrate the curriculum into 
  Sugar, by or example, using the Turtle Art [1]. I was inspired by 
  our discussion of the Food Pyramid, so on the flight back to 
  Boston, I wrote a new activity, [2]. What is potentially fun about 
  it is that not only can you explore the precompiled database of 
  foods, but you can also load your own foods into the database. So, 
  for example, a child could take a photo (using Record) or draw a 
  picture (using Paint) of dinner, and then load that food into the 
  activity.
 
  Walter, the Food Pyramid is so 10 minutes ago :-)
 
  Almost a year ago the USDA guidelines changed to the MyPlate 
  iconography.
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyPlate
 
  I should probably change my formula for a balanced meal. (I had been 
  going by the material prepared in .NI based on USAID curricula.) 
  Thanks.
 
 That is not to say that the USDA recommendations are necessarily right 
 for every one, even within the US there is criticism that they are 
 overly influenced by the agribiz concerns that have great political 
 influence.
 
 Of course, leave to folks from Boston to propose an alternative, the 
 Harvard Healthy Eating Plate.
 
 http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-eating-plate/healthy-eating-plate-vs-usda-myplate/index.html

Somewhat related, for those interested in RDF and semantic web, here is 
a SPARQL interface for the USDA data (and, if we move on the 
collaboration that we've briefly discussed via email recently, also some 
european databases I am looking at codifying):

  http://semanticdiet.com/


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Browse and the move to WebKit

2012-02-17 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
On 12-02-17 at 05:33am, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
 better news: i've just confirmed that:
 
 a) the removal of js_push_context and pop context was a spurious 
error, those functions are now restored, confirmed as compiling and 
existing (untested)
 b) the usual critical pyjamas-desktop tests, Helloworld, 
JSONRPCExample, KitchenSink and Mail all have the exact same 
behaviour as they used to, way back before the xpcom API breakage 
[where we all had to wait for todd whiteman to update pyxpcom]
 
 this is really really good news because it means that the people who 
 have been keeping an eye on the debian packaging of hulahop and have 
 been going arse! it's fecked! quite a lot will now be happy that it 
 all works, and i am confident that within a few weeks/months people 
 will be able to do apt-get install pyjamas-desktop python-hulahop 
 again and have it all work.

This is indeed quite exciting.  Looking at your patch now and hopefully 
able to release a working Hulahop for Debian.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] error building etoys in a debian distro

2011-11-16 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Hi Alvar,

On 11-11-16 at 06:44am, Alvar Maciel wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:
  Are you aware that Debian has official Debian packages for Sugar 
  0.84?
 Yes I see the packages, but they are obsoletes for being used in the 
 schools. I try to use that packages in my school and we have many 
 problems. Because of this I want to package the 94.1 release :)

Ohh, silly me: I misread the version number in your first post and 
thought your interest was in that old branch of Sugar.

Debian maintains packages for newer branches of Sugar as well. The plan 
currently is to release 0.84, 0.88 and 0.94 with next stable Debian.



 I think that Sugar has to be running in all distribution at least in 
 the last stable release. In that way we can have chances to put Sugar 
 in the schools regards the Distributions that they are running

I wholeheartedly agree.  Someone needs to do it, though. :-)

I work on it for Debian, and your help is dearly appreciated!

You are helping already: Knowing that someone out there appreciates 
the Sugar packages and are in need of them kept up-to-date helps me 
prioritize that work over other of my many pet projects in Debian.

(lack of steady updates to Sugar in Debian is an indication that a) I am 
doing most work alone, and b) I feel that noone cares so have poured 
more love in other projects)


  Would be awesome if you could see the benefit of joining us in 
  improving those packages distributed globally instead of locally 
  struggling with jh-build.
 I really want to do it remember that I'm more a teacher that a hacker, 
 I' m not a Debian Developer o any of that role in Debian.

No need for a titles or experience to help, even technically.  Passion 
and curiosity should get you a long way - and some familiarity with 
Debian, obviously, but sounds like you got all of those already :-D


 But I want to use my time to improve Sugar in a way that can be used 
 in our school... so I'm learning how to compile (I can solve all 
 dependencies to compile sugar on Debian and Ubuntu) and now I'm 
 learning how to package (I never do it)

Great!




 If you can coach me, I have tree monts to doit.

I'd be delighted to couch you!

I am travelling currently, so expect me to be slow in responding and 
often too distracted to dive deep into problems you may uncover.

If curious, this is my journey: http://wiki.jones.dk/DebianAsia2011



 I create a git repository (remeber i'm new in this too...) 
 https://github.com/alvarmaciel/packg-deb-sugar to begin can I send to 
 you the advances of this work?

Good idea to work separately at first, but please join the Debian team 
and let us continue this discussion not discretely but on the dedicated 
mailinglist - and let's get you quickly in shape to work directly on the 
official Debian packages, to put your efforts into use globally :-)

Please (create an account and) join our team here: 
https://alioth.debian.org/projects/debian-olpc/

...and join our mailinglist here: 
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debian-olpc-devel

...and when ready post to that list and we can take it from there.

If you run into problems, you are quite welcome to contact me directly, 
but generally it is more fruitful to work transparently via our 
mailinglist.


Looking forward to work with you,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] error building etoys in a debian distro

2011-11-15 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Hi Alvar,

On 11-11-14 at 03:28pm, Alvar Maciel wrote:
 I'm trying to compile debian from source ina Debian 6.0 Distribution.
 The goal is build the .deb packages of sugar 0.94.1 because in my
 country (Argentina) there is a deployment of classmate with tjis
 distribution and are almost 400,000 machines to students of primary
 school. I think that this is an opportunity to  use sugar, so my
 summer project it's build this package.

I cannot help you with your concrete issue, as that is tied to jh-build 
which I don't use.

Are you aware that Debian has official Debian packages for Sugar 0.84?

Would be awesome if you could see the benefit of joining us in improving 
those packages distributed globally instead of locally struggling with 
jh-build.


Kind regards,

 - Jonas

Debian package maintainer for Sugar packages

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] [SLOBS] GPL non compliance?

2011-04-26 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Hi Sugar folks,

[cutting off a few recipients I knwo is subscribed to lists]

On 11-04-26 at 12:57pm, Bernie Innocenti wrote:
 On Tue, 2011-04-26 at 10:26 -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
 
   useless because children can install absolutely no additional 
   software packages (they can't do yum install).
  
  Um - again you _can_ install sw in your homedir. Not as practical 
  but possible.
 
 It would be quite painful for users.

Correct. Due to design of XO hardware, not licensing of Sugar software.

[snip]

 The GPL (both v2 and v3) requires that users be given the full source 
 code in its *preferred* form for making modifications to it. The GPLv3 
 additionally requires that users be given the means to install and run 
 modified versions. Quoting the license directly:
 
   “Installation Information” for a User Product means any methods, 
   procedures, authorization keys, or other information required to 
   install and execute modified versions of a covered work in that User 
   Product from a modified version of its Corresponding Source. The 
   information must suffice to ensure that the continued functioning of 
   the modified object code is in no case prevented or interfered with 
   solely because modification has been made.
 
 My feeling is that, in order to be in compliance, deployments would 
 have to provide detailed instructions for installing Sugar in the 
 user's home... or simply give them root access.
 
 Note that Sugar updating its license would simply add yet another 
 violation to the existing ones: there are currently between 40 and 60 
 packages covered by the GPLv3 in a typical OLPC OS image, and the 
 number is going to increase further when we switch to Fedora 14.

...but it is _Sugar_, not the XO hardware, that is GPL licensed.

So how about this detailed instruction:

  1) Buy a non-locked computer
  2) Copy everything over to that other machine
  3) Exercise all your rights there

Et voilá, GPLv3 not violated.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] ANNOUNCE: Moving Sugar to GPLv3+

2011-04-25 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
On 11-04-25 at 02:14pm, Christoph Derndorfer wrote:
 Secondly you wrote Before proceeding to a vote, we'd like to request 
 feedback from the community. In particular, we'd like to know how this 
 change might affect you as a Sugar end-user, distributor, contributor 
 or maintainer. It can be argued that contributors and maintainers 
 have so far spoken up in this thread but users and distributors 
 haven't. I'm not quite sure why this is the case but it's probably 
 safe to assume that David has somewhat of a point when he says that 
 licensing isn't necessarily on the critical path of tasks for users 
 and deployments (which says nothing about whether licensing should or 
 shouldn't be a critical task for Sugar Labs itself IMHO). Additionally 
 I would suggest that reaching out to the relevant people and 
 organisations privately, pointing them to this thread, and encouraging 
 them to post their opinion might get some replies as not everybody 
 follows sugar-devel and IAEP religiously.

Well, let me then speak up as package maintainer for Debian:

I wholeheartedly agree with Martin here.  GPL-2+ signals a different 
political message than GPL-3+.  I am quite interested myself in the more 
aggressive GPL-3, but find it problematic FSF decided to label GPL-3 as 
a successor of GPL-2 instead of renaming the stem.  The reason is that 
in my opinion GPL-3 - as Aferro-GPL - is not improved wording of same 
intended license, but changes the game.

I therefore find it rude of projects to abuse the flaw in FSF license 
naming by bumping from GPL2 to GPL3.  It is cheating the authors.

I lack some responses in this thread from authors with the viewpoint of 
oh thank you for taking care of my interests and refining my original 
intend by bumping to that new version of the GPL which more clearly 
states the same thing as I wanted back when I released my code to you.


That was representing myself only.  Debian officially is not pushing 
towards GPLv3 but accepts anything that fits the Debian Free Software 
Guidelines - which includes both agressive licenses like GPLv2 and 
GPLv3, and passive ones like BSD-3-clause and Expat (a.k.a. MIT).

I have very much enjoyed following this discussion.  Thanks for the well 
reflected arguments on both sides!


Regards, and good luck with this process,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] tamtammini-57.xo, csound and ubuntu

2011-04-02 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi Andrea,

On Fri, Apr 01, 2011 at 11:13:41AM +0200, Andrea Mayr wrote:
Two years ago i tried so hard to get it running (on debian), but 
failed.


Did you ever try report to Debian the problems you encountered?

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] DebXO 0.6 release

2010-12-11 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 04:11:01PM -0800, Andres Salomon wrote:

After waay to long of a delay, I just tagged and built
DebXO 0.6.


Cool!

I must've sensed it: Just two days ago I instinctively checked out the 
wiki page to see if the project was still alive :-)



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Mailman's admin and archive interfaces are horrible - suggest GroupServer.org

2010-10-26 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 09:56:05PM -0400, Luke Faraone wrote:

On 10/17/2010 07:15 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:

I'm assuming the infrastructure team are part of this list.


We are, sorry for the long reply time.

The archives are easily searchable, attached files are converted to 
links to the server so that people's inboxes are not flooded.


Removing inline attachments may break PGP/MIME, (although I haven't 
checked) and some people consider being able to read a message offline 
in its entirety a feature. I hope that behavior is configurable.


I welcome any feedback. I think that a migration like this will make 
the mailing lists far more accessible as a knowledge archive. I've 
been assured that there is a migration path from mailman[4]. From 
what I know of Dan, its lead developer, it should be fairly easy  
reliable.


I'll take a look at it. For it to be seriously considered, a mailman 
path would be needed. The linked tweet notwithstanding, I've not seen 
any documentation on such a migration.


You might want to consider sympa too: https://www.sympa.org/

It has strong support for PGP/MIME, and a nice default web interface.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Mailman's admin and archive interfaces are horrible - suggest GroupServer.org

2010-10-26 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 04:13:42PM +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 26.10.2010, at 11:14, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:


On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 09:56:05PM -0400, Luke Faraone wrote:

On 10/17/2010 07:15 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:

I'm assuming the infrastructure team are part of this list.


We are, sorry for the long reply time.

The archives are easily searchable, attached files are converted to 
links to the server so that people's inboxes are not flooded.


Removing inline attachments may break PGP/MIME, (although I haven't 
checked) and some people consider being able to read a message 
offline in its entirety a feature. I hope that behavior is 
configurable.


I welcome any feedback. I think that a migration like this will 
make the mailing lists far more accessible as a knowledge archive. 
I've been assured that there is a migration path from mailman[4]. 
From what I know of Dan, its lead developer, it should be fairly 
easy  reliable.


I'll take a look at it. For it to be seriously considered, a mailman 
path would be needed. The linked tweet notwithstanding, I've not 
seen any documentation on such a migration.


You might want to consider sympa too: https://www.sympa.org/

It has strong support for PGP/MIME, and a nice default web interface.


For easier participation, a system that had a seamless forums interface 
would be great. Unfortunately I have not found one that works well, 
yet.


Yeah, I think I share your interest here.

Years back I was in love with http://pessoal.org/papercut/ but sadly 
that haven't been maintained.  Also, my experimentation with it revealed 
that webforum users tend to use a different writing style, especially 
regarding quoting, which makes the marriage a mess for both email and 
webforum lovers.


Sympa provides a seemingly nice web interface, usable also for users 
(i.e. not only an admin interface), including posting from web (i.e. not 
only archival).


I have not yet played much with sympa myself - have fought with 
packaging it for Debian for a couple of years, though.  The recent 6.x 
releases seem pretty mature (no longer needs heavy patching which is 
what consumed much of my packaging time earlier on).



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [RELEASE] Browse-120

2010-10-25 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 06:51:15PM -0400, Lucian Branescu Mihaila wrote:

http://download.sugarlabs.org/sources/sucrose/fructose/Browse/Browse-120.tar.bz2


Please push a tag for that release.

Also, it seems work has been done at the 0.84 branch of Browse - please 
remember to release that as tarball and tag it, when ready for 
consumption.



Thanks for allthe great work!


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] stepping down as maintainer

2010-10-24 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 06:21:38PM +0200, Sascha Silbe wrote:

Excerpts from David Farning's message of Sun Oct 24 06:42:24 +0200 2010:

Sugar Labs lost its lead developer.  It is unfortunate that no-one 
has done a public review of the reasons and implications of Tomeu 
quiting.
 Tomeu's leaving is significant enough that Sugar Labs should take a 
hard look at what is working, what is not working, and how to fix the 
pieces that are not working.


Was there something going on behind the scenes? From Tomeus mail I 
would have thought his reasons were entirely personal ones (i.e. 
something like having to take care of his parents or his girlfriend not 
wanting to have to share him with Sugar Labs anymore).


Well, seems at least to not be a sudden move: 
http://blog.tomeuvizoso.net/2010/10/now-moving-for-real.html



[lots of great reflections - from both of you - snipped]

For those posting thankyou mails to the list, let me share an insight 
passed to me recently by a fellow Debian developer: If you want to thank 
a person then do it discretely.  Posting thankyous to a mailinglist has 
the side effect of boosting your own ego and, more damaging, affects 
similar future events: Who is appreciated enought to get many comments 
when leaving (or, as was the case at the debian-private list: has a 
baby).


Hope I did not step on anyones toes with this.  I certainly do not want 
to brag about being better than others: as said, someone just pointed 
out the exact same thing to me very recently.  My intend is to care for 
the community, not only the person at the center of the various events.



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Re-initiate Packaging Team

2010-10-21 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:26:49AM +, Aleksey Lim wrote:

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 04:31:49PM +0530, Manusheel Gupta wrote:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Aleksey Lim alsr...@member.fsf.org 
wrote:


 On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 03:45:58PM +0530, Manusheel Gupta wrote:
  On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Aleksey Lim 
  alsr...@member.fsf.org wrote:

   BTW, maybe Packaging is not appropriate name, any ideas?
  
 
 
  Account Services team is the preferred trade name for small size 
  teams engaged in support work (answering questions, or 
  communicating with the development team, maintaining builds and 
  their timely releases). Some companies use Internal System 
  Architect nomenclature too. When team sizes grew bigger, this 
  work comes under the umbrella of Members of Technical Staff.


 Well, I personally prefer something less official/corporate, e.g., 
 Bazaar Team :)




Bazaar in Hindi refers to market. Suspect that many people would 
confuse it with the marketing team :-)


Though Bazaar is referring more to The Cathedral and the Bazaar in 
FOSS world (afaik) rather to marketing (which sounds, in some meaning, 
quite opposite thing :).


Not opposite, IMO:

The Cathedral and the Bazaar was written by Eric Raymond, who, I 
believe, is also a strong proponent of the term Open Source as opposed 
to Free Software.  In other words, the term was coined by a liberal 
(not a Freedom fighter), and the text is very much about business models 
and marketing as I recall.



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [RELEASE] sugar-base-0.90.1

2010-10-12 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 05:54:25PM +0200, Simon Schampijer wrote:

Sorry the header should have been sugar-base of course.

On 09/29/2010 05:53 PM, Simon Schampijer wrote:

== Source ==

http://download.sugarlabs.org/sources/sucrose/glucose/sugar-base/sugar-base-0.90.1.tar.bz2


Please push the git tag.

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal of dotted activity version number

2010-10-07 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
So the proposed 1.2.3-peru numbering scheme really is a 1.2.3 scheme 
with an optional trailing taint hint?


It probably makes better sense to clearly distinguish those two 
essentially separate issues:


  * mainline numbering
+ integer
+ triple integers
+ Debian-style triple string scheme
+ other?
  * how to officially handle slight forks
+ extending triple integers with fourth integer/string
+ non-version suffix to version
+ separate field
+ no official support
+ other?

The easiest for Debian would be if you version your code using triple 
integers, as that properly supports multiple branches (which you _are_ 
doing, whether you admit it or not!).


debian care not about deployment forks, but I sure recommend that you do 
support it properly - which means make room for it in the versioning 
string and admit that forks are versioned too - not only a non-versioned 
flag.



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal of dotted activity version number

2010-10-07 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 12:45:11PM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:

On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

So the proposed 1.2.3-peru numbering scheme really is a 1.2.3 scheme 
with an optional trailing taint hint?

[snip]
It probably makes better sense to clearly distinguish those two 
essentially separate issues:

[snip]

It's clear in the previous examples?


Nope. You insist on discussing both issues together. Very confusing.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal of dotted activity version number

2010-10-04 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Mon, Oct 04, 2010 at 11:27:36AM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
The new version number will consist of N integer numbers separated by 
dots and a suffix for a local indicator. Activity developers can still 
use an integer number only, if desired.

Valid numbers are:
23
23.2
23.2.5
23.2.5-peru
23.2.5-uru

The internal representation will be a string instead of an int and we 
will add means to validate and compare the versions.


What do others think about this approach? Packagers?
We must limit the number of integer digits allowed?


Short version:  Gogogo!

Slightly longer: Make sure to strictly define the semantics of 
non-integer parts.


It might seem obvious at first - peru being slight fork of 
micro-version 5. But perhaps sometimes a local branch wants to release 
a sneak preview, e.g. almost micro-version 6.  Should that then be 
labeled 23.2.6-peru or (since 5-peru is taken already) 23.2.6.peru2?


In Debian we allow both letters and digits in all parts, and use special 
sign ~ to indicate almost and + to indicate just above. And we 
treat 0 (zero) equal to a missing trailing part. And more nitpicking...


I do not, however, recommend you to adopt such complex scheme.  I 
suggest instead (as might actually be what imply by the above summary) 
that the 3 first parts are strictly digits and intended only for 
mainline releases, while an optional 4th part is strictly for 
non-mainline use and allows [a-z0-9] (but nothing else - no dash, 
underscore, capital or non-ASCII letters, +~ or whatever). Then use 
simple C locale sort order, and leave it to local branches if they want 
to use only letters or also leading and/or trailing digits.



Enjoy,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal of dotted activity version number

2010-10-04 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Mon, Oct 04, 2010 at 12:50:37PM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:

Short version:  Gogogo!

Thanks!


Slightly longer: Make sure to strictly define the semantics of 
non-integer parts.


It might seem obvious at first - peru being slight fork of 
micro-version 5. But perhaps sometimes a local branch wants to 
release a sneak preview, e.g. almost micro-version 6.  Should that 
then be labeled 23.2.6-peru or (since 5-peru is taken already) 
23.2.6.peru2?


In Debian we allow both letters and digits in all parts, and use 
special sign ~ to indicate almost and + to indicate just 
above. And we treat 0 (zero) equal to a missing trailing part. And 
more nitpicking...


I do not, however, recommend you to adopt such complex scheme.  I 
suggest instead (as might actually be what imply by the above 
summary) that the 3 first parts are strictly digits and intended only 
for mainline releases, while an optional 4th part is strictly for 
non-mainline use and allows [a-z0-9] (but nothing else - no dash, 
underscore, capital or non-ASCII letters, +~ or whatever). Then use 
simple C locale sort order, and leave it to local branches if they 
want to use only letters or also leading and/or trailing digits.



I am planing be more strict: the last part is only [a-zA-Z]*


Then the next to 23.2.6-peru will be 23.2.7-peru or 23.2.6.1-peru. The 
last part does not imply version, only is a helper to the local 
deployments.


So which package will be favored if all of the following are available:

  23.2.7
  23.2.7-peru
  23.2.7-bolivia

?

If last part does not imply version, then they are all flavors of 
same version 23.2.7, yet one might be a bugfix of the other and the 
third a feature enhancement.


Also, if you permit local branches to add more version parts, are they 
then allowed to add yet another part if need be?  What is the strict 
logic?


Or do you not want a strict logic (now, but learn as you move on)?


And why a more strict part if it does not imply version?  And if it 
does get used to resolve which of multiple flavors win an election, what 
is then the sorting algorithm when you permit both capital and lowercase 
letters?



Regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal of dotted activity version number

2010-10-04 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi Gonzalo and others,

I suspect we talk past each others.  But let's just leave it at that.

Good luck with the proposal!


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [SoaS] Policy for activities for downstream inclusion

2010-09-15 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 09:25:57AM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 00:51, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 09:05:53AM -0500, David Farning wrote:


On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 5:27 AM, Simon Schampijer 
si...@schampijer.de wrote:


Hi,

what is the current status for activity releases in order to 
include them in distributions like Soas*? Do you guys need tarballs 
or did you switch over to construct the rpms from the .xo? For 
example the latest Paint rpm uses the .xo AFAIK (build even the 
binaries from the non-python sources in the bundle).


And is the email from ASLO enough for packagers to know about new 
releases? Any other notification that packagers need?


In the .deb side of the universe, we prefer tarballs but we can work 
directly from the git repository.


True, the Debian workflow generally is optimized for (gzip or bzip2 
compressed) tarballs.  It is possible to step aside from that and 
custom generate tarballs based on whatever unusual formats provided 
upstream, e.g. pulling it out of Git repositories or extracting from 
xo packages.  But then we loose some of the nice infrastructure, like 
automatic tracking of new releases across all 30.000 upstreams.


I believe Debian is not alone in preferring tarballs from upstream 
authors. I believe it is quite general in the FLOSS world.  Feel free 
to be weird and unusual also in this area,


This time we weren't trying to outsmart everybody else ;)

We actually do believe in tarballs and tagging, even if we don't get it 
right always. We have these instructions for modules in glucose and 
fructose and of course I recommend them as well to other modules:


http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Release#Fructose


Great.



Note that we have lots of activities unmaintained, people maintaining
several ex-orphaned activities, activity authors that have no idea how
distros are made, etc. Ideally we would have some kind of support
group to help those people out, but obviously we don't have such a
thing.


I am fully aware of the bad apples that can be seen as the Sugar 
development community flourishing.  Those were not my aim in my rant.


It seems I misunderstood this thread, so simply apologize for my noise.


just beware that you put a slight higher burden on your downstreams 
every time you choose to stand out from the crowd.  So consider the 
benefits are worth the risk of loosing consumption from some 
downstreams.


Hope that with the above you understand a bit better the situation we 
are in.


Yes, I do. Thanks.



Btw, we may want to review our release process in light of:

http://www.metux.de/index.php/de/component/content/article/57.html


Wauw - that is a cool summary!


 - Jonas


P.S.

Please quote only relevant parts of emails.  E.g. my GPG hash is 
completely irrelevant to quote except when preserving my original post 
in its entirety (which is seldom relevant either).



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Re: [Sugar-devel] [SoaS] Policy for activities for downstream inclusion

2010-09-15 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 07:28:05AM -0500, David Farning wrote:

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 4:47 AM, Sascha Silbe
sascha-ml-reply-to-201...@silbe.org wrote:
Excerpts from Simon Schampijer's message of Tue Sep 14 16:14:08 +0200 
2010:


 In the .deb side of the universe, we prefer tarballs but we can 
 work directly from the git repository.


We should not go from the git repository. Either use the .xo or a 
tarball.


Why? And who is we in this case?


For the entire 'why' I will have to refer you to the the Debain mailing 
lists. /me ducks The short answer is Debian packaging is premised on 
the idea of a 'pristine source' which historically has been a publicly 
available tarball.  Over the last couple of years Jonas has modified 
the CDBS (Common Debian Build System) to grab from a properly tagged 
git repo.


I want to clarify a bit here:

Debian still very much favor tarballs.  If upstreams do not ship 
tarballs, we need to create a tarball ourselves as part of our packaging 
efforts.


This is bad in my opinion, as there is a higher risk of introducing 
errors that can go unnoticed: If repackaging accidentally adds, alters 
or skips some files, then the distributor is unlikely to notice because 
it is treated as upstream code, and obviously upstream is unlikely to 
notice too since in fact the (altered) code never appeared upstream.


For the Sugar packages in Debian I have gone beyond the minimal 
requirements in Debian (which includes that mandatory tarball!) in also 
tracking upstream Git.  I do *not* like redistributing directly from 
Git, and have in the past raised my concern about David Farning and his 
team of Ubuntu developers packaging directly from Git rather than 
pushing upstream (i.e. you Sugar guys) to always release tarballs.



'We' is anyone interested in having their activity packages accepted 
into Debain.


He he - I do that typo too.  I even mistype my own name as Joans :-)


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [SoaS] Policy for activities for downstream inclusion

2010-09-14 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 09:05:53AM -0500, David Farning wrote:

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 5:27 AM, Simon Schampijer si...@schampijer.de wrote:

Hi,

what is the current status for activity releases in order to include 
them in distributions like Soas*? Do you guys need tarballs or did 
you switch over to construct the rpms from the .xo? For example the 
latest Paint rpm uses the .xo AFAIK (build even the binaries from the 
non-python sources in the bundle).


And is the email from ASLO enough for packagers to know about new 
releases? Any other notification that packagers need?


In the .deb side of the universe, we prefer tarballs but we can work 
directly from the git repository.


True, the Debian workflow generally is optimized for (gzip or bzip2 
compressed) tarballs.  It is possible to step aside from that and custom 
generate tarballs based on whatever unusual formats provided upstream, 
e.g. pulling it out of Git repositories or extracting from xo packages.  
But then we loose some of the nice infrastructure, like automatic 
tracking of new releases across all 30.000 upstreams.


I believe Debian is not alone in preferring tarballs from upstream 
authors.  I believe it is quite general in the FLOSS world.  Feel free 
to be weird and unusual also in this area, just beware that you put a 
slight higher burden on your downstreams every time you choose to stand 
out from the crowd.  So consider the benefits are worth the risk of 
loosing consumption from some downstreams.




I have cced jonas for an official position.


Thanks for notifying me, David.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [RELEASE] sugar-presence-service-0.90.1

2010-08-27 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 02:35:49PM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 19:00, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:18:32PM -0400, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:


This release is only made because a 0.90.0 was made before 0.88.1. 
So with this, the latest released code has the highest version 
number, although unfortunately we have an unstable release with an 
even number. Sorry for the confusion, time will fix it somewhat.


Not sure if I am the only one still confused here: is 
presence-service abandoned for 0.90 branch of Sugar, should 0.90.x be 
used? or should 0.90.x be used for 0.88 branch and 0.89.x be used for 
0.90 branch? Or...?!?


Could you perhaps spell out explicitly for all Sugar branches which 
release of sugar-presence-service to use (if at all)?


Sure:

Sucrose 0.84 - PS 0.84.1
Sucrose 0.86 - PS 0.86.0
Sucrose 0.88 - PS 0.88.0
Sucrose 0.90 - PS 0.90.1

From 0.90 the PS is only needed by Etoys and will be completely
dropped in 0.92, hopefully.


Thanks.  Makes sense now - even to me :-)


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [RELEASE] sugar-presence-service-0.90.1

2010-08-25 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:18:32PM -0400, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
This release is only made because a 0.90.0 was made before 0.88.1. So 
with this, the latest released code has the highest version number, 
although unfortunately we have an unstable release with an even number. 
Sorry for the confusion, time will fix it somewhat.


Not sure if I am the only one still confused here: is presence-service 
abandoned for 0.90 branch of Sugar, should 0.90.x be used? or should 
0.90.x be used for 0.88 branch and 0.89.x be used for 0.90 branch? 
Or...?!?


Could you perhaps spell out explicitly for all Sugar branches which 
release of sugar-presence-service to use (if at all)?



Kind regards,

- Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [Fwd: Dependency on python-cjson - dead upstream]

2010-08-24 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:54:38AM -0300, Bernie Innocenti wrote:

El Tue, 24-08-2010 a las 10:10 +0100, pbrobin...@gmail.com escribió:

Hi Bernie,

Funny this should come up. When Sebastian and I were packaging up 
sugar and deps for EPEL-6 I discovered this and scratched my head 
over it but haven't had time to follow up. Looking through the 
various sugar packages I see most of them use python-simplejson so if 
it could be verified that sugar-datastore does in fact work with 
python-simplejson I would happily change it over to simplify and 
reduce deps.


No, it indeed still uses cjson. Sascha, could you provide a patch to 
convert it to simplejson?


Please beware that sugar-toolkit, and activities Browse, Chat, Read and 
Speak, also use cjson.


- Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [Fwd: Dependency on python-cjson - dead upstream]

2010-08-24 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 02:35:48PM +0100, pbrobin...@gmail.com wrote:

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:
Please beware that sugar-toolkit, and activities Browse, Chat, Read 
and Speak, also use cjson.


sugar-toolkit according to the requires in the spec file uses 
python-simplejson but that doesn't mean that its historically wrong and 
just works due to the fact that sugar-datastore pulls in the dep.


Perhaps that spec file is wrong, then:

jo...@auryn:sugar-toolkit ((master))$ git checkout v0.89.3
Previous HEAD position was 463da56... Prepare release: Update changelog, 
control file and copyright check.
HEAD is now at d6da506... Release 0.89.3
jo...@auryn:sugar-toolkit ((d6da506...))$ git grep cjson
src/sugar/activity/activity.py:import cjson
src/sugar/activity/activity.py:self.metadata['buddies_id'] = 
cjson.encode(buddies_dict.keys())
src/sugar/activity/activity.py:self.metadata['buddies'] = 
cjson.encode(self._get_buddies())


Kind regards,

- Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [RELEASE] sugar-presence-service-0.90.0

2010-08-16 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 12:33:40PM -0400, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:
there are no changes in this release, it is made just to bump the 
release version number.


Thanks!

Please also tag the Git repository - and remember to push it :-)


Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] No sugar-base or sugar-presence-service releases for 0.90 branch?

2010-08-05 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 02:11:38PM +0200, Simon Schampijer wrote:

On 07/21/2010 12:14 PM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
I am currently releasing the 0.90 (a.k.a. 0.89.x) branch of Sugar for 
Debian.


The parts sugar, sugar-artwork and sugar-toolkit have Git tags and 
tarballs in the 0.89.x series, but not sugar-base or 
sugar-presence-service.


there have been no changes to those modules yet. I was wondering about 
doing a release today - just to bump the version number, but was not 
sure what is more convenient. You as a packager, what would you prefer?


Yes, for base parts (the subset of Sucrose which all activities depend 
on) it makes best sense for me as distributor that each branch has a 
complete set of tarballs.


Alternatively there ought to be a single, obvious to find canonical 
place which declared which parts officially span which multiple 
branches.  But really I prefer the (in my opinion) simpler approach of 
simply rereleasing with bumped version number, even if nothing has 
changed.



This *only* relates to core parts.  Activities we have no problems in 
Debian handling even if they span multiple branches.  Or actually, we do 
have problems with it currently, but that is due to bugs in the CDBS 
plugin that I developed for it, not a problem with your releases. :-)



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [RELEASE] sugar-0.84.19

2010-07-28 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:18:59PM -0400, d...@laptop.org wrote:

== Source ==

http://download.sugarlabs.org/sources/sucrose/glucose/sugar/sugar-0.84.19.tar.bz2


Great.


Please remember to tag the release and push that tag.

Apparently it is missing currently.


Regards,

  - Jonas

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[Sugar-devel] No sugar-base or sugar-presence-service releases for 0.90 branch?

2010-07-21 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi,

I am currently releasing the 0.90 (a.k.a. 0.89.x) branch of Sugar for 
Debian.


The parts sugar, sugar-artwork and sugar-toolkit have Git tags and 
tarballs in the 0.89.x series, but not sugar-base or 
sugar-presence-service.


Why?

...have I perhaps missed some major structure changes?


Kind regards,

  - Jonas

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[Sugar-devel] Git tag missing for sugar-datastore 0.89.1 tarball release

2010-07-21 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi,

As subject says, it seems sugar-datastore lack a Git tag v0.89.1 
corresponding the recent tarball release.



Kind regards,

  - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-artwork 0.84 and 0.86 apparently out of sync

2010-07-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Jul 01, 2010 at 03:14:38PM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 16:49, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

Hi,

It seems that sugar-artwork Git is tagged as at version 0.84.2, but 
the corresponding tarball is missing from 
http://download.sugarlabs.org/sources/sucrose/glucose/sugar-artwork/ 
.


Also, I suspect (based on Sascha Silbe reporting[1]) that the 
GTK_WIDGET_HAS_FOCUS bugfix applied in 0.88 branch should be 
backported to both 0.86 and 0.84.


Thanks for the heads up, I'm adding it to my list in case nobody does 
it before.


I tried backporting, and noone complained so far:

http://git.debian.org/?p=collab-maint/sugar-artwork.git;a=blob;f=debian/patches/1001_avoid_deprecated_GTK_API.patch;hb=7f7a47

http://git.debian.org/?p=collab-maint/sugar-artwork.git;a=blob;f=debian/patches/1001_avoid_deprecated_GTK_API.patch;hb=05cf34


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar-artwork 0.84 and 0.86 apparently out of sync

2010-07-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Jul 01, 2010 at 05:15:31PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

On Thu, Jul 01, 2010 at 03:14:38PM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 16:49, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

Hi,

It seems that sugar-artwork Git is tagged as at version 0.84.2, 
but the corresponding tarball is missing from http://download.sugarlabs.org/sources/sucrose/glucose/sugar-artwork/ 
.


Also, I suspect (based on Sascha Silbe reporting[1]) that the 
GTK_WIDGET_HAS_FOCUS bugfix applied in 0.88 branch should be 
backported to both 0.86 and 0.84.


Thanks for the heads up, I'm adding it to my list in case nobody 
does it before.


I tried backporting, and noone complained so far:

http://git.debian.org/?p=collab-maint/sugar-artwork.git;a=blob;f=debian/patches/1001_avoid_deprecated_GTK_API.patch;hb=7f7a47

http://git.debian.org/?p=collab-maint/sugar-artwork.git;a=blob;f=debian/patches/1001_avoid_deprecated_GTK_API.patch;hb=05cf34


...and 5 days from now, if still noone finds bugs in the latest 
packaging release, the patches will appear at these nicer URLs:


http://patch-tracker.debian.org/package/sugar-artwork-0.86

http://patch-tracker.debian.org/package/sugar-artwork-0.84


...similarly all other Debian packages has such URLs for easy lifting 
patches :-)



 - Jonas

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[Sugar-devel] sugar-artwork 0.84 and 0.86 apparently out of sync

2010-06-25 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi,

It seems that sugar-artwork Git is tagged as at version 0.84.2, but the 
corresponding tarball is missing from 
http://download.sugarlabs.org/sources/sucrose/glucose/sugar-artwork/ .


Also, I suspect (based on Sascha Silbe reporting[1]) that the 
GTK_WIDGET_HAS_FOCUS bugfix applied in 0.88 branch should be backported 
to both 0.86 and 0.84.



Kind regards,

 - Jonas


[1] http://bugs.debian.org/583578

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Re: [Sugar-devel] #1669 UNSP: Accessibility - keyboard

2010-06-24 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 09:03:59AM -0300, Esteban Arias wrote:

I added Makefile.in because other extensions on the src.rpm have this
file

2010/6/23 James Cameron qu...@laptop.org

Are you sure you should be adding Makefile.in to the repository?  It 
is an automatically generated file.



Typically it makes sense to only include Makefile.am files in VCS (e.g. 
git) as that source is targeted developers who can be expected to have 
adequate versions of autotools installed and able to use them properly, 
and include Makefile.in files as well with release tarball (and source 
rpm files, I assume) as that is targeted consumers (e.g. distributors 
and hardcore users) who can only be expected to have a more limited 
development environment and possible largely varying versions of tools.



Regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar with a virtual (onscreen) keyboard

2010-06-23 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 02:01:52AM +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote:

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Jonas Smedegaard jo...@jones.dk wrote:

Hi Sayamindu (and others),

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 05:46:43PM +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote:


[Apologies for the cross-posting]


Thanks to the pointers provided by Peter Robinson, I got the Meego 
FVKBD (Free Virtual Keyboard)¹ running along with Sugar.



Thoughts, feedback, etc would be appreciated :-).


I am not familiar with these details, so just shooting in the dark 
here:


Perhaps looking at (i.e. get interface inspiration or steal code 
from) the alternative virtual keyboard implementation Literki, which 
seems to have happy followers among Debian OpenMoko users:


 http://git.senfdax.de/?p=literki



Thanks for the pointer to this. It seems however that it's written
directly using Xlib, and hence would be unusable for complex scripts
like Arabic, Indic, etc.


Ah, ok.  Too bad.

Personally I never succeeded getting those script engines to work on my 
laptop (and have only esoteric use for them - i.e. suspect them to not 
even be used for cyrillic which is the only non-latin script I grasp), 
so wasn't aware of this important issue.



Kind regards,

  - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] De-yellowing page images?

2010-05-10 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 10:19:13AM -0500, James Simmons wrote:
I'm asking this question here because at the moment I don't know where 
else to ask.  The question relates to the Reading And Sugar book I'm 
doing.


I'm scanning in book pages of a book printed in 1928.  The pages are 
quite yellow, but readable.  A sample is at:


http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/ReadingandSugar/ScanningBookPages

I'd like to lighten or remove the yellowing from the pages to make the
book more attractive.  Maybe leave the text alone and replace
everything else with white.  I tried different things with GIMP
without much luck.  Any ideas?


Perhaps simply scan in greyscale rather than color?

Also, you might be interested in postprocessing with unpaper: 
http://unpaper.berlios.de/



Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] use ConsoleKit instead of HAL for shutdown/reboot

2010-04-21 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:12:43AM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 1:32 AM, James Cameron qu...@laptop.org wrote:

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 07:55:45PM -0400, Chris Ball wrote:


Now, if one also stops HAL, the shutdown or restart options don't 
work, and shell.log says:


I thought the point of these patches was to move from HAL to
ConsoleKit so surely it should work whether HAL is there or not
especially with everyone moving away from HAL to
ConsoleKit/upower/udisk/udev etc/


I do not know those mechanisms intimately, but can easily imagine that 
on some (versions of some) systems the transition has not completed yet 
so that *other* parts of the chain fail if HAL is unavailable.



Regards,

  - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Who maintains Hulahop?!?

2010-04-17 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 09:08:34PM +0100, Lucian Branescu wrote:

I have applied to GSoC with this
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2010/AbstractBrowser.

In short, it's a project to make Browse (mostly) engine-independent.


Wauw, that seems quite interesting, long term.

Could you perhaps be convinced to have a go at looking into this 
specific problem that I have raised, and the related cleanup of the use 
of Xulrunner which Mike have suggested?  Now, before GSoC?



Kind regards, and good luck with your related project!

- Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Who maintains Hulahop?!?

2010-04-17 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:15:54PM +0100, Lucian Branescu wrote:
Unfortunately, I'm quite busy now with a school project and work, and I 
have to revise for exams. If I find time, I'll have a look at that.


Thanks.

School and work obviously has higher priority.  I would really 
appreciate if you (or anyone else!) could squeeze in a bit of time to 
look at this.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Who maintains Hulahop?!?

2010-04-16 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi again,

On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 07:19:58PM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 22:41, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:



I am wondering: Who maintains Hulahop?


It's unmaintained as per 
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Release/Modules#hulahop

:(

I can find time to discuss and review any fixes.

Thanks for caring about this,


...and soon after this thread died out again :-(

With noone in Sugarlabs maintaining the code, and incapable myself to 
maintain it, I now strongly consider dropping Browse from Debian!


This is a cry for help:  It really really feels weird with such a 
central piece of the Sugar environment being dead code.



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Who maintains Hulahop?!?

2010-04-08 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi Peter (and others),

On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 10:19:11AM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 9:41 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

Hi Sugar developers,

I am wondering: Who maintains Hulahop?

The code currently works in Debian only because I leave alone a 
hardcoded rpath, which I am told is bad.


As I understand it, Ubuntu has a hard time getting the code to work 
properly, possibly due to same issue.



I would like to discuss that issue with those of you involved in the 
coding of Hulahop, and fellow Debian developer Mike Hommey, who 
maintains xulrunner and seems an expert in this area, have offered to 
help clean up the code.


There doesn't seem to be an rpath issue with the build in Fedora. You 
can try the details that Fedora specifies for fixing rapth issues, it 
will work for any build system as its generic for autoconf based buils. 
The section for 'removing rpath' is probably what your after.


https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Beware_of_Rpath


Thanks for the suggestion.  tried that already, however (using chrpath),
but the library then fails completely.

As I understand it, this is tied to how xulrunner is compiled, so if it 
just works on Fedora, I suspect this to be becuase the library paths 
of xulrunner is already included in some lookup path somewhere.  I 
really do not know the details here, which is why I involved Mike Hommey 
who packages xulrunner for Debian and have offered to help improve the 
Hulahop code to (as I understand it) a more generic style usable not 
only on systems happening to be modelled the same as Fedora.



Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] [ANNOUNCE] Sucrose 0.88.0 Stable Release

2010-04-08 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 05:04:21PM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 02:06, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:


what I seek: A political decision from a release team, maintained at 
some location easy to watch for changes.


Not sure if we have someone with spare cycles to do this job.


Are such political decisions taken at all?  If so, cc me directly (I 
might very well miss posts on these very active Sugarlabs lists), and I 
volunteer to attempt maintaining a concise listing on a wiki page.



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Who maintains Hulahop?!?

2010-04-07 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 07:19:58PM +0200, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 22:41, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

Hi Sugar developers,

I am wondering: Who maintains Hulahop?



It's unmaintained as per
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Release/Modules#hulahop
:(


Oh. :-(



I can find time to discuss and review any fixes.


Thanks.  Please read my former post a few days ago...


Regards,

- Jonas

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[Sugar-devel] Who maintains Hulahop?!?

2010-04-06 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi Sugar developers,

I am wondering: Who maintains Hulahop?

The code currently works in Debian only because I leave alone a 
hardcoded rpath, which I am told is bad.


As I understand it, Ubuntu has a hard time getting the code to work 
properly, possibly due to same issue.



I would like to discuss that issue with those of you involved in the 
coding of Hulahop, and fellow Debian developer Mike Hommey, who 
maintains xulrunner and seems an expert in this area, have offered to 
help clean up the code.



Simon?

Tomeu?

You guys seem to be tha last ones messing with the Hulahop code back in 
september 2009.  Please respond.



Kind regards,

- Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] xulrunner and rpath

2010-04-05 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi Sugar developers (and Mike),

Mike Hommey maintains Debian packaging of xulrunner.

I asked him about the use of hardcoded rpath in Hulahop, which is 
generally a bad idea and its use is being hunted down in Debian.


He had a look at the Hulahop code and suggestions for improvements.  He 
is kindly offering to help with this if necessary.



Please read below - and please cc him on responses (no need to cc me, I 
am subscribed to this list):



On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 03:12:51PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:

On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 02:23:24PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 08:52:28AM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
On Sun, Apr 04, 2010 at 11:33:01AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
Hi Mike,

I maintain python-hulahop packaging for Debian.

This package does not strip rpath, and I am pretty sure that the
reason for that was some instructions provided by you.

That must have been a long time ago, then.

It was Wed May 7 2008 - is that a long time in this context?

It was at the time xulrunner 1.9 was introduced to Debian.

Now that I look at the VCS history of python-hulahop, it might
actually be that it was not following your instructions but fumbled
on my own (I added chrpath and removed it again later same day, with
no reference to that web page I seem to recall reading from you).
Hm.


Now ftpmasters auto-rejects python.hulahop based on a lintian check
discovering that rpath, and I want to do the sane thing and
double-checking that the rpath really should be preserved, as part
of hiding that lintian warning.

So question is: Do xulrunner need rpath preserved?  And if so, where
is the documentation for that, as I seem to have forgotten.

Normally, rpath is not needed (anymore).

I tried now to strip the rpath using chrpath, and immediately the
code stops working, spewing the following error:

ImportError: libxul.so: kan ikke åbne delt objektfil: Ingen sådan fil eller 
filkatalog


...translated from danish to english, it says something like this:

ImportError: libxul.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or 
directory


Maybe relevant: I added +LDFLAGS += -L/usr/lib/xulrunner-1.9 to the
build routines, as fix for bug#494225.


Which just does nothing, since it is /usr/lib/xulrunner-1.9.1, now.


Could I persuade you to help investigate this issue - even if
perhaps not rooted in your package but some bug in Hulahop itself?


It seems to me the root of the problem is that python-hulahop is using
the linked glue instead of the standalone glue. I also wonder why it's
not using pyxpcom for xpcom initialization, instead of having its own
stuff in hulahop.cpp, though I don't really know what pyxpcom permits
exactly.

Anyways, it seems to me the XRE_InitEmbedding call should be replaced by
the following sequence:
GRE_GetGREPathWithProperties
XPCOMGlueStartup
XPCOMGlueLoadXULFunctions
XRE_InitEmbedding

If you need assistance with these, please bug me.

Mike


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Re: [Sugar-devel] [ANNOUNCE] Sucrose 0.88.0 Stable Release

2010-04-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 12:35:20PM +0200, Simon Schampijer wrote:

0.88 is the latest version of Sugar, consisting of Glucose, the base
system environment; and Fructose, a set of demonstration activities.
This new release contains many new features, performance and code
improvements, bug fixes, and translations.


Congratulations to all involved!


Sorry to ask - again: Where is the official documented list of contents 
of Glucose and Fructose for each major release of Sugar?



I fail to locate it at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Notes and the 
directly referenced http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Taxonomy is too broad.



I would like to check - for each of 0.84, 0.86 and 0.88 - how close to 
the official compositions we are in Debian currently.


Please do not post the detailed answer in an email response, but refer 
to the wiki page which is (supposed to) contain this info. :-)



Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] [ANNOUNCE] Sucrose 0.88.0 Stable Release

2010-04-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 04:32:59PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 12:35:20PM +0200, Simon Schampijer wrote:


0.88 is the latest version of Sugar, consisting of Glucose, the base
system environment; and Fructose, a set of demonstration activities.
This new release contains many new features, performance and code
improvements, bug fixes, and translations.


Congratulations to all involved!


Sorry to ask - again: Where is the official documented list of 
contents of Glucose and Fructose for each major release of Sugar?



I fail to locate it at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Notes and 
the directly referenced http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Taxonomy is too 
broad.



I would like to check - for each of 0.84, 0.86 and 0.88 - how close 
to the official compositions we are in Debian currently.


Please do not post the detailed answer in an email response, but 
refer to the wiki page which is (supposed to) contain this info. :-)


Its not changed for quite some time and can be found here: 
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Release/Modules


Thanks.

It seems that page is not exactly what I am looking for, however.

Or let me try throw a couple of trick questions:

  * Do newest release of Browse work on 0.84?
  * Is (newest releases of) jukebox and imageviewer part of 0.84?

If you do not care about tracking 0.84 any longer then what revision of 
which wiki page should I go look for latest info on that abandoned 
release?



Kind regards,

  - Jonas


P.S.

Sorry for posting initially to both devel and iaep lists.

I consider this question mostly technical so have now added only devel 
list as Reply-To - please respond to that list only.


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Re: [Sugar-devel] Fwd: [Sur] Presidente Chavez , computadoras para niños

2010-04-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 12:30:50PM -0400, Edward Cherlin wrote:
Does anybody here know about this Lemote computer from Quanta, and its 
version of Debian? Venezuela is ordering lots of them. Is anybody 
working on getting Sugar on it?


As you know already there is an ongoing work to get Sugar fully 
integrated with Debian (and derivatives thereof).


No, I have heard nothing about specific packaging targeted Lemote.  If 
really a Debian system shipped on the Lemote specific packaging 
shouldn't be necessary, however.


We (a.k.a. I) could certainly use a helping hand - so please do not be 
shy but subscribe to our team mailinglist and let's discuss how you can 
contribute to that packaging effort.  More info at your own wiki here: 
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Community/Distributions/Debian



Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] [ANNOUNCE] Sucrose 0.88.0 Stable Release

2010-04-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi Walter (and others).

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 12:07:55PM -0400, Walter Bender wrote:

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 04:32:59PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:


On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 12:35:20PM +0200, Simon Schampijer wrote:


0.88 is the latest version of Sugar, consisting of Glucose, the 
base system environment; and Fructose, a set of demonstration 
activities. This new release contains many new features, 
performance and code improvements, bug fixes, and translations.


Congratulations to all involved!


Sorry to ask - again: Where is the official documented list of 
contents of Glucose and Fructose for each major release of Sugar?



I fail to locate it at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Notes and 
the directly referenced http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Taxonomy is 
too broad.



I would like to check - for each of 0.84, 0.86 and 0.88 - how close 
to the official compositions we are in Debian currently.


Please do not post the detailed answer in an email response, but 
refer to the wiki page which is (supposed to) contain this info. 
:-)


Its not changed for quite some time and can be found here: 
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Release/Modules


Thanks.

It seems that page is not exactly what I am looking for, however.

Or let me try throw a couple of trick questions:


Risking getting tripped up...


:-)



 * Do newest release of Browse work on 0.84?


I believe the answer is yes.


Specifically for 0.84 I believe that some activities only supports the 
redesigned toolbar, and judging from its Git source branching Browse 
is one of those.


There might be other issues too, and the issue might have been fixed 
later on so that the 0.84 branch is no longer used so is a wrong measure 
for me as distributor to look for.


I have been around long enough to have heard about it when the toolbar 
was redesigned, so am aware of that particular issue.  But others might 
not - and I would appreciate not having to rely on my own jusgement and 
code analysis but being able to lookup hard facts published by the 
upstream project.




 * Is (newest releases of) jukebox and imageviewer part of 0.84?


The maintainers of 0.84 would have to answer this question. They are
doing quite a bit of backporting.


The question here was not if it _works_ with 0.84, but instead if it is 
considered as _part_ of the core Sugar environment.  So when you 
mention backporting efforts, I suspect that we are not talking about the 
same thing - or perhaps your use of backporting is what I would call 
deriving.


Sigh...  I know that mentioning core Sugar might spawn a discussion on 
its own. :-/



If you do not care about tracking 0.84 any longer then what revision 
of which wiki page should I go look for latest info on that abandoned 
release?


0.84 has not been abandoned. There are several teams working on its 
maintenance and support.


Yeah, that's my impression too.  Thanks for reassuring that my big 
efforts on multi-branched packaging for Debian is not a total waste :-)



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] [ANNOUNCE] Sucrose 0.88.0 Stable Release

2010-04-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi Peter,

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 06:09:26PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
Ah, so you want a matrix of what the latest version of each activity 
that is supported on each of the major releases of sugar? I'm not sure 
that exists in particular but a.sl.o should have the supported versions 
of sugar for each activity.


No.  I would want a matrix of a) which libraries are considered 
Glucose, b) which applications are considered Fructose.


I am not interested in which versions are possible to get working 
against the rest of the environment or which add-on libraries or add-on 
applications are possible to mix with the core software released by 
Sugarlabs.


Only which parts and versions are officially supported by Sugarlabs.

Something like http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Platform_Components but 
describing Sugarlabs code rather than underlying code.



Hope that helps :-)


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] [ANNOUNCE] Sucrose 0.88.0 Stable Release

2010-04-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 05:24:08PM -0400, Walter Bender wrote:

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

Hi Walter (and others).

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 12:07:55PM -0400, Walter Bender wrote:


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:



 * Do newest release of Browse work on 0.84?


I believe the answer is yes.


Specifically for 0.84 I believe that some activities only supports 
the redesigned toolbar, and judging from its Git source branching 
Browse is one of those.


Hmm. I was pretty sure that Browse had support for both styles of 
toolbars. But apparently I am mistaken. As Peter mentioned, the 
database in ASLO keeps track of which versions of which activities go 
with the various Sucrose releases. I suppose those data should be in 
the wiki somewhere as well, at least for Fructose.


I understand that, but see a difference between what is *available* (at 
ASLO) and what is *included* (as core Sugar).



I now found partly what I was looking for in the Roadmap pages:

  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.84/Roadmap
  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.86/Roadmap
  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Roadmap

Above pages contain at the bottom lists what appears to be release team 
approved lists of libraries and applications part of each major release.


What I still miss is a similarly authoritative version ranges - 
similarly to the lists at these pages:


  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.84/Platform_Components
  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.86/Platform_Components
  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Platform_Components

Also it would be great if http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.84/Roadmap was 
updated to clarify if the Proposed modules was later rejected or are 
now officially part of Sugar since some minor version of 0.84.





 * Is (newest releases of) jukebox and imageviewer part of 0.84?


The maintainers of 0.84 would have to answer this question. They are 
doing quite a bit of backporting.


The question here was not if it _works_ with 0.84, but instead if it 
is considered as _part_ of the core Sugar environment.  So when you 
mention backporting efforts, I suspect that we are not talking about 
the same thing - or perhaps your use of backporting is what I would 
call deriving.


I mean backporting in the sense that they are taking a number of
patches made for 0.88 and applying them to 0.84. So the definition of
core Sugar for 0.84 is a bit of a moving target. Not being a distro
person, I can only imagine that leading to some confusion, but for the
most part, the backporting is confined to strategic bug fixes as
opposed to redefinitions of components. There is a particular focus on
0.84 because it is being rolled out on the new OLPC hardware and in
many of the larger Sugar deployments.


I guess that's what I call backporting as well.  What confused me (now 
that I reflect a bit more on it) is not the backporting term, but the 
very act of backporting into a stable release, rather than aside it.


Debian has logic of not introducing new features into a branch after it 
has been released as stable.


In other words, it is simply me being too used to thinking in Debian 
logic here :-)



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] [ANNOUNCE] Sucrose 0.88.0 Stable Release

2010-04-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 05:26:36PM -0400, Walter Bender wrote:


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:



 * Do newest release of Browse work on 0.84?



Checking ASLO, Browse 112 is marked as working with 0.86; Browse 108
is marked as working with 0.84.


Thanks.

I was aiming at more general lists of info, however - Browse just being 
one example.


I can go hunt down the info at ASLO for each and every chunk of code 
related to Sugar in some way.  But that would be too error prone, and I 
feel that my time then would be better spent not giving a shit about 
compliance with Sugarlabs and just throw together for Debian what I 
findworks together - not caring if it is coming from Sugarlabs or from 
other sources.


Can you follow how I would like a more coordinated approach?



I guess what I really try to express here is that I imagine that 
distributors in general would appreciate if Sugarlabs maintained info on 
what was considered the official core Sugar for each major release of 
it - somewhere easy for distributors to compara against.



Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] [ANNOUNCE] Sucrose 0.88.0 Stable Release

2010-04-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 10:21:50AM +1100, James Cameron wrote:

On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 12:34:26AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
I can go hunt down the info at ASLO for each and every chunk of code 
related to Sugar in some way.


Erk.

What a strange concept.  Is this ASLO database available in any other 
public form than run Browse from a Sugar instance and search for an 
activity?


Couldn't the dependency on, or compatibility with, specific versions of 
Sugar be mentioned in the activity source?  Why keep it separate?


  * There's (sometimes) comments in release notes.
  * There's alternative branches in Git
  * There's discussions on mailinglists
  * There's ASLO database

All of those - and also hints in source itself - are different from what 
I seek: A political decision from a release team, maintained at some 
location easy to watch for changes.



 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Please tag tarball releases in git repository, e.g. Sugar 0.87.2

2010-01-12 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 05:51:32PM +0100, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

Ping!


Was that targeted me? If so, why?

Sugar 0.87.2 was packaged for Debian on january 1st and entered 
testing earlier today.



Status for that specific package is here: 
http://packages.qa.debian.org/s/sugar-0.88.html


Status for all team-maintained Sugar-related packages are here:
http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=debian-olpc-de...@lists.alioth.debian.org


Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Please tag tarball releases in git repository, e.g. Sugar 0.87.2

2010-01-12 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 07:46:11PM +0100, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 18:35, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 05:51:32PM +0100, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:


Ping!


Was that targeted me? If so, why?


Sorry, this as targeted to Simon about committing the patch for sugar-tools.


Ah, ok :-)


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar Development

2009-12-30 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 09:11:35AM +0100, Tomeu Vizoso wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 06:33, James Cameron qu...@laptop.org wrote:

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 07:40:01AM -0500, Walter Bender wrote:
Informally, we have such a list from Peru, which is our largest 
Sugar deployment. They use a core set of activities and have 
expressed the desire to see that set (a) reach a level of increased 
stability; and (b) run reliably on newer versions of Sugar [...]


Helping track down open tickets with any activities on this list 
would be of great benefit.


And a polite reminder that there are now at least three places you 
might find tickets ... sugarlabs.org, laptop.org, and launchpad.  ;-)


Not really, every distributor of Sugar has their own tracker. I would 
suggest anyone wanting to help with this to focus on only one tracker.


I wholeheartedly agree: If you want to help develop _Sugar_ then focus 
on the _Sugarlabs_ issue tracker, and if you want to help develop some 
specific _distribution_ of Sugar then watch the tracker of that. :-)


The laptop.org tracker is for OLPC distribution of Sugar, and Launchpad 
tracker is for Ubuntu and SoaS distributions.


Work directly on the thing you are passionate about, and then (as 
secondary priority!) stretch that passion as far up- and/or downstream 
as you feel like.



Regards,

 - Jonas

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[Sugar-devel] Please tag tarball releases in git repository, e.g. Sugar 0.87.2

2009-12-30 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Hi,

Please do remember to tag tarball releases in Git repositories.  Those 
tags are helpful for (some) distributors - like me :-)


Concretely Sugar 0.87.2 released december 21st lack a tag about that.


Kind regards,

- Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar Development

2009-12-30 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 02:07:07PM +0100, Martin Langhoff wrote:
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org 
wrote:
And a polite reminder that there are now at least three places you 
might find tickets ... sugarlabs.org, laptop.org, and launchpad. 
 ;-)


Not really, every distributor of Sugar has their own tracker. I would 
suggest anyone wanting to help with this to focus on only one 
tracker.


I grumble a bit about that -- the proliferation of trackers adds to
our burden. Other than packaging issues, most bugs reported against
any distro are very likely to affect the core Sugar and all the
distros (since most of the stack is shared).

We'd need a polished distributed bugtracker. And a pony.


Yeah, and we need a simple build system, not both autotools, cmake, 
sCons, ANT etc.  And a single programming language instead of both 
Python, Perl, C, C++ etc.


I suspect it is a dead run to convince all distributors and all 
upstreams to use same issue tracker. A monoculture is *much* easier to 
grasp, but also radically different from how FLOSS works (and works 
well, IMHO!).


So more realistically, I'd say that each derivative, either a 
distributor of some upstream source or a for(re)distributor of a 
distribution, should take responsibility on giving back their 
accumulated knowledge on bugs not only related to local oddities.


As I posted earlier: First work directly on the thing you are passionate 
about (i.e. the hacker approach of an itch to scratch) and then 
if/when you have surplus energy then expand beyond your own selfish 
needs/wants: reflect on how you might improve giving back to your 
upstream.


Or concretely:

 0) File discovered bugs in local-to-you issue tracker
 1) Deal with bugs in local-to-you issue tracker
 1a) Fix bugs caused by local-to-you code changes
 1b) Pass on upstream issues that turn out to have a larger scope
 2) Hunt down issues remotely tracked that might affect you too
 3) Hunt down issues unstructurally discussed but not yet tracked
 4) Hunt down issues not yet discovered at all (e.g. evil code patterns)



If what you mean simply is that Sugarlabs, OLPC and SoaS (and those 
three alone) ought to share a single issue tracker, then sorry for my 
rant - I'll keep out of such discussion.




 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [Feature] activity.info enhancements

2009-12-11 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:43:56PM -0500, Walter Bender wrote:
Summary: It would facilitate the packaging of Sugar activities into 
RPMs and DEBs if there were additional information available in the 
activity.info file.


Details: In walking the process of creating an RPM of one of my 
activities with Sebastian Dziallas, who is doing lots of packaging for 
Fedora and SoaS, we observed that many fields in packages' .spec files 
could readily be pulled from the activity.info file. A few additional 
fields would be necessary, such as the following:


   * a short summary
   * an URL to the source package
   * an URL to the activity home page
   * the required dependencies to run


I would use such hints only as inspiration for Debian packaging, not 
rely on it.


The reason for this is that I would not expect upstream software authors 
to know all the nitty gritty details of policies governing Debian 
packaging - e.g. how we name the dependencies.  Even if they did know 
better than me I still would need to double-check, as ultimately I am 
responsible for the quality of packaging that I maintain, not upstream.


Since the hints most likely won't be machine-processed (I suspect other 
distributors will do as me - it seems irresponsible to me to automate), 
I strongly recommend to use the de-facto GNU filenames: INSTALL for 
notes relevant only at install time (i.e. both for manual install and 
for distributors) and README for hints targeted end-users.




None of these additional fields need be required, but their inclusion 
would make things easier. (This is not a new idea, but one that seems 
timely given all the upstream interest in Sugar these days.)


I guess you meant _downstream_ interest above.  Distributors are 
downstream to Sugarlabs, only GTK+, Python and similar are upstream, and 
I suspect that's not the ones gaining interest in Sugar.



Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [Feature] activity.info enhancements

2009-12-11 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 09:39:15PM -0500, Walter Bender wrote:

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Jonas Smedegaard d...@jones.dk wrote:

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:43:56PM -0500, Walter Bender wrote:


Summary: It would facilitate the packaging of Sugar activities into 
RPMs and DEBs if there were additional information available in the 
activity.info file.


I would use such hints only as inspiration for Debian packaging, not 
rely on it.


None of these additional fields need be required, but their 
inclusion would make things easier. (This is not a new idea, but one 
that seems timely given all the upstream interest in Sugar these 
days.)


I guess you meant _downstream_ interest above.  Distributors are 
downstream to Sugarlabs, only GTK+, Python and similar are upstream, 
and I suspect that's not the ones gaining interest in Sugar.



Yes. Downstream.


:-)


I based my proposal on a discussion with only a small sample of 
packagers. I take it from both Jonas and Aleksey that there may be 
better ways of assisting packagers. The goal is that activity 
developers do have a lot of knowledge about their creations and it 
would make sense to have them express it in some way that would save 
work for others. But what form this expression takes I leave to those 
more knowledgeable.


I certainly agree that sharing such info makes good sense - it only 
worried me if using a machine-readable format as that could create an 
expectation among activity developers of it being used automatically by 
distributors which I wouldn't do myself and recommend against others 
doing either.



Jonas, it may make sense not to depend on things like dependency names, 
etc. but I can imagine things like a summary, description, URL of the 
homepage, etc. could be reasonable to accept from developers.


It makes good sense for upstream to clearly express such metadata, but I 
still see it as distribution choice if using it verbatim or not.


As an example, the distributor may have a different interpretation of 
Homepage than upstream (as has been discussed before on this list).


If you really want to use a machine-readable format then I recommend 
using DOAP instead of reinventing the wheel.  But even if you do, I 
still recommend to use an INSTALL file as well.




Hope that makes sense.  If not please keep arguing! :-)


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [RELEASE] sugar-toolkit-0.84.7

2009-12-09 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 03:56:40PM +, Daniel Drake wrote:

On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 16:04 +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 06:53:38AM -0500, Daniel Drake wrote:
== Source ==

http://download.sugarlabs.org/sources/sucrose/glucose/sugar-toolkit/sugar-toolkit-0.84.7.tar.bz2

Fix bold font style.

Just a note for future releases and other distributors wondering like
me: it seems you tagged the 0.84.6 release slightly wrong so it included
above bold font style fix.


It doesn't appear that way - can you be more specific about what you're
looking at?


Strange: it seems indeed now when double-checking that it was an error 
at my end (I must've somehow pulled the older-dated but newer bugfix 
commit when intended to pull only the v0.84.6 release).


So please just ignore my earlier post :-/


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] sugar master will depend on simplejson again

2009-12-05 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 01:41:17PM +0100, Sascha Silbe wrote:

On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 01:17:49PM +0100, Simon Schampijer wrote:

[Debian]
could it be that 2.5 is only the default and that it is fine for a 
package to depend on python 2.6?
No, that's not the case. Python 2.6 is only available in 
experimental, not in unstable or testing.


Even when Python2-6 appears in unstable, it is most probably a problem 
still as long as not being the default, due to some Python modules only 
compiled for the default Python version (multi-version Python module 
support is optional and raise packaging complexity considerably except 
when using CDBS, which is discouraged for other reasons by some 
developers).


Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar Platform clarifications

2009-12-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 11:27:27AM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 01.12.2009, at 02:43, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:


On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 02:15:46AM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 29.11.2009, at 15:02, Sascha Silbe wrote:


http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.86/Platform_Components


Speaking of Etoys - that 0.86 page lists 4.0.2206, whereas the 
actual Etoys version in the 0.86 release was 4.0.2319 (and 4.0.2332 
in 0.86.2). How come? Should I just change it, and if so, to which 
version? Also, there have been some bug fixes since then, the 
current version (good for 0.82 to 0.86) is 4.0.2339.


I believe that page should have the minimal version working with 
Sugar.


It is a wiki: feel free to update if the information is wrong :-)


I changed it to 4.0.2332.


Which means you consider older versions to *not* work with Sugar?


Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar Platform clarifications

2009-12-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 02:48:18PM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 01.12.2009, at 13:33, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 11:27:27AM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 01.12.2009, at 02:43, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:


On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 02:15:46AM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 29.11.2009, at 15:02, Sascha Silbe wrote:


http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.86/Platform_Components


Speaking of Etoys - that 0.86 page lists 4.0.2206, whereas the 
actual Etoys version in the 0.86 release was 4.0.2319 (and 
4.0.2332 in 0.86.2). How come? Should I just change it, and if so, 
to which version? Also, there have been some bug fixes since then, 
the current version (good for 0.82 to 0.86) is 4.0.2339.


I believe that page should have the minimal version working with 
Sugar.


It is a wiki: feel free to update if the information is wrong :-)


I changed it to 4.0.2332.


Which means you consider older versions to *not* work with Sugar?


No, but the page says that these are the versions that activity 
authors can rely on when targeting Sugar 0.86. Actually, 4.0.2339 has 
an important fix for etoys-based activities (SugarLabs #1576), but 
since this was not ready in time for 0.86, activity authors can not 
rely on it.


Python 2.6 was also ready when 0.86 was released, but promising 
activity authors as a minimum that version raise the bar for 
distributors.


I strongly recommend to promote a more relaxed lowest denominator.


- Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar Platform clarifications

2009-12-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 03:45:08PM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 01.12.2009, at 15:13, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 02:48:18PM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 01.12.2009, at 13:33, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 11:27:27AM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 01.12.2009, at 02:43, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:


On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 02:15:46AM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 29.11.2009, at 15:02, Sascha Silbe wrote:


http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.86/Platform_Components


Speaking of Etoys - that 0.86 page lists 4.0.2206, whereas the 
actual Etoys version in the 0.86 release was 4.0.2319 (and 
4.0.2332 in 0.86.2). How come? Should I just change it, and if 
so, to which version? Also, there have been some bug fixes since 
then, the current version (good for 0.82 to 0.86) is 4.0.2339.


I believe that page should have the minimal version working with 
Sugar.


It is a wiki: feel free to update if the information is wrong :-)


I changed it to 4.0.2332.


Which means you consider older versions to *not* work with Sugar?


No, but the page says that these are the versions that activity 
authors can rely on when targeting Sugar 0.86. Actually, 4.0.2339 
has an important fix for etoys-based activities (SugarLabs #1576), 
but since this was not ready in time for 0.86, activity authors can 
not rely on it.


Python 2.6 was also ready when 0.86 was released, but promising 
activity authors as a minimum that version raise the bar for 
distributors.


I strongly recommend to promote a more relaxed lowest denominator.


Python 2.6 is not part of Sugar. Etoys 4.0.2332 is part of the Sugar 
0.86.2 release, not merely a dependency.


Oh - off course.  It makes perfect sense now :-)


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Re: [Sugar-devel] [RELEASE] sugar-datastore-0.87.1

2009-12-01 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 05:39:07PM +, Aleksey Lim wrote:

== Source ==

http://download.sugarlabs.org/sources/sucrose/glucose/sugar-datastore/sugar-datastore-0.87.1.tar.bz2


Please push Git tags too.  For Debian packaging I prefer to track both 
Git commits and tarball releases in concert, and right now the newest 
Git tag for sugar-datastore is v0.86.1



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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar Platform clarifications

2009-11-30 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 02:15:46AM +0100, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 29.11.2009, at 15:02, Sascha Silbe wrote:


http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.86/Platform_Components


Speaking of Etoys - that 0.86 page lists 4.0.2206, whereas the actual 
Etoys version in the 0.86 release was 4.0.2319 (and 4.0.2332 in 
0.86.2). How come? Should I just change it, and if so, to which 
version? Also, there have been some bug fixes since then, the current 
version (good for 0.82 to 0.86) is 4.0.2339.


I believe that page should have the minimal version working with Sugar.

It is a wiki: feel free to update if the information is wrong :-)


 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar Platform clarifications (was: Re: [Debian-olpc-devel] Missing deps for sucrose-0.86.)

2009-11-29 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 03:02:15PM +0100, Sascha Silbe wrote:

(Repost due to subscribers-only policy on sugar-devel)

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 12:53:48PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

Please note that comparing the list of missing dependencies 
provided by  Michael Stone with the components listed in the 
Sugar Platform page,  only EToys is missing.
That's good news. Which package does gst-plugins-espeak hide in? 
It's still on my to-do list for sugar-jhbuild.
It is not (yet) packaged for Debian, I believe.  Oh, sorry if I 
missed out on that one...

Too bad, IIRC I had trouble building it from source. :-/


Ask me nice and I'll do it :-) Please ask at the Alioth list, not here.


I think the Sugar Platform page [1] should list upstream source 
packages; unless explicitly noted otherwise activity authors can 
expect that

a) Python bindings,
b) executables and
c) data files
provided by the (upstream-)default configuration are installed.


Makes sense to me: that is sufficient for arch-independent scripting 
code to work.  Development headers are required only for _distro_ 
developers.


I think, however, that it makes sense to explicitly list the Python 
bindings that are expected, as version numbers are often not in sync, 
and sometimes multiple incompatible wrappers exist.


It might even make sense to *only* list the Python wrappers - their 
underlying libraries cannot be linked against directly 
arch-independently anyway.



Once 0install support gets merged, Sugar Platform should be enhanced to 
include build tools (autocrap, c(++) compiler, ...); in that case, 
activity authors can also rely on the corresponding -dev(el) packages 
(i.e. libraries, header files, etc.) to be installed as well.


I have not followed the discussions on 0install, but it surprises me 
that this should be mandatory - I always considered 0install as 
comparable to a distribution.


I might loose interest in Sugar if 0install becomes integral part of 
core Sugar.  But that's another discussion.



If there's anything most distros leave out that's included in the 
upstream defaults, it should be mentioned in the list (i.e. removed 
from the Sugar Platform). For a single distro (e.g. Debian disabling 
something Fedora ships) it should be discussed on sugar-devel first.



As for the special case of gstreamer, I'd say it should include 
gstreamer-plugins-good (AFAICT that's an upstream distinction, so 
distro-agnostic), but not -bad or even -ugly. Especially MP3 support 
should be kept out (until after all patents have expired, whenever 
that might be) of the Sugar Platform, as it is a minefield of legal 
issues. (*)


Makes sense.  And -good is also listed already, so I whined a bit too 
much.




Python 2.5/2.6
Authors should then know that well-written implies must only use  
functions supported by *both* Python 2.5 and Python 2.6.

Gtk+ 2.16
Debian have moved on to GTK+ 2.18 in Sid, and do not offer the 
older  library as an alternative.

[...]
Personally I consider the list as minimum version, not exact 
version (given current distro practices it cannot be the latter). 
Yes, activity authors should be (made) aware of that and cater for 
the consequences (which isn't exactly easy, but a different topic).


Makes sense to me.

I have now updated the Sugar Platform page to say Minimum version 
and drop the superfluous/confusing newer versions mentioned for Python 
and CSound.




GStreamer 0.10

[...]


gstreamer 0.10.14
Huh?!? I guess the capitalized is an ABI and the lowercased one is 
the actual implementation.  So a Sugar Platform must include a 
specific   micro version of the actual implementation of 
GStreamer?!?

Looks like a mistake to me.


I've now merged those entries.




[1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.86/Platform_Components
(*) There is a way for individual users to legally acquire and use 
the Fluendo MP3 decoder, but not for (package / image / whatever) 
distributors (due to patent license restrictions). So as long as any 
MP3 patent is valid, SoaS cannot legally include an MP3 decoder (only 
an installer for it, which would require an internet connection 
during installation).


CU Sascha

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar Platform clarifications (was: Re: [Debian-olpc-devel] Missing deps for sucrose-0.86.)

2009-11-29 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 05:37:44PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 03:02:15PM +0100, Sascha Silbe wrote:

(Repost due to subscribers-only policy on sugar-devel)

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 12:53:48PM +0100, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

Please note that comparing the list of missing dependencies 
provided by Michael Stone with the components listed in the 
Sugar Platform page, only EToys is missing.
That's good news. Which package does gst-plugins-espeak hide in? 
It's still on my to-do list for sugar-jhbuild.
It is not (yet) packaged for Debian, I believe.  Oh, sorry if I 
missed out on that one...

Too bad, IIRC I had trouble building it from source. :-/


Ask me nice and I'll do it :-) Please ask at the Alioth list, not here.


Just to avoid misunderstandings: I always enjoy working together with 
Sascha - above was just trying to make a joke, not a grumpy remark as I 
realize now that it could easily be misunderstood as.



Kind regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Activity Versioning - Dotted Scheme

2009-11-29 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 01:23:22PM -0500, Wade Brainerd wrote:
Anecdote: My XO ran out of space over Thanksgiving and automatically 
deleted Browse at boot time.  I downloaded the latest version, but it 
failed to launch as my XO is running the OLPC 8.2.0 build.  This was 
pretty annoying to me as I didn't have a web browser available to go 
find out which version *would* work.


Hmmm - I believe we were promised that ASLO would ensure that only 
Activities supported by the client branch of Sugar would be served.


Was that a brain fart of mine, a single glitch in an otherwise reliable 
ASLO version handling, or whould we simply warn Sugar 0.82 users to 
*not* use ASLO?



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