Re: [Sugar-devel] Should we care about non readers and kids with motor skill issues?
Caroline Meeks writes: True. But all kids matter. Including the nonreaders, the ones going to schools that are not taught in their native language, the ones for whom reading is a struggle, the dyslectics. You don't want to keep them non-readers forever, do you? That's what happens when you don't push them to use text. There are 2-year-old kids using Tux Paint. They don't read AFAIK, yet nearly every Tux Paint icon comes with text. There is even an area at the bottom of the screen where Tux constantly spews text. The less a kid is able to read, the more he desperately needs text. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Should we care about non readers and kids with motor skill issues? was - Re: RFC: Kill the delayed menus for good
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 03:28, Caroline Meeks solutiongr...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps. What would you define as the ailment, yourself? The primary intent was to encourage use of a direct interaction model, in which palettes we're supposed to play a big role. When it turned out that young kids, who didn't read, and who didn't have motor skills for selecting form the palettes, we aimed to reduce accidental invocation of them without entirely eliminating discovery by increasing the delay. Many kids have motor skills, and the ones that don't initially are remarkably good (being kids) at developing motor skills that they don't yet have. Many kids also read. In fact, let's cut into some real deep philosophy stuff here... True. But all kids matter. Including the nonreaders, the ones going to schools that are not taught in their native language, the ones for whom reading is a struggle, the dyslectics. Also I really disagree about the developing motor skills. I think developing motor skills is a developmental thing that goes at different paces. I see kids that can get the concepts of Sugar but who struggle with clicking the blocks together in Turtle Art. I think they are perfectly normal kids who will eventually have perfectly adequate motor skills for normal computing. Providing them with a system that is as easy as possible for them while those motor skills are developing should be one of our missions. The idea that the XO laptop is mainly for kids who can't read is completely bogus. Now, maybe you're thinking of other children when you say this, but I prefer to first consider the main existing userbase. Laptops which have Sugar installed on them are primarily located in schools and are used for education. It is kind of ridiculous to say Well, you don't actually need to know how to read to use the laptops, so we should make the interface not require reading. when the truth is that, for most activities that have any educational merit, you DO need to read and you need to read things significantly more complicated than activity names. Most of the people who use Sugar for most of the time WILL know how to read. I disagree on this too. I think there a host of activities that nonreaders could use in Sugar. Paint, Colors, Jingsaw, Flipsticks, Write (writing a great way to learn to read), speak, many GCompris Games, Calculate, books that are read to you, Browse if you share a favorited website. In fact if you share a started activity then you further expand the number of things a nonreader could do. I agree with this, that's what I think of when I hear low floor, no ceiling. Regards, Tomeu -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Should we care about non readers and kids with motor skill issues? was - Re: RFC: Kill the delayed menus for good
as someone who grew up dyslexic before computers, I have to say, XOs should be for EveryOne, readers, people with difficulty reading, those young and not reading, and dyslexics, plus those with motor issues. you could check the prevalance numbers, but with deployments of 300k or so, you are going to get a large segment of people, i.e. high numbers (thousands, to tens of thousands?) who need to be included... and that is without autism, and other physical issues like muscular dystrophy, deafness, blind, etc... emotional and cognitive issues probably abound as well, and a computer is sometimes a good way to go, even special ed might agree with that... as a kid, and some continuing, my handwritting is really bad, and was able to use a typewritter in class. in today's classrooms, having a computer, that has built in keyboard + memory and ability on screen to change fonts, character sizes, etc, may make reading a possiblity, not to mention some interactivity options and more patience than your average teacher, student teacher, class assistant, and parent probably possess... plus dysgraphia, like dyslexia but graphics, (think picasa on a bad day), and stick figures would be the best to be expected, whereas programming something to draw for one might not be an issue, turtle art, programming graphics, etc. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 03:28, Caroline Meeks solutiongr...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps. What would you define as the ailment, yourself? The primary intent was to encourage use of a direct interaction model, in which palettes we're supposed to play a big role. When it turned out that young kids, who didn't read, and who didn't have motor skills for selecting form the palettes, we aimed to reduce accidental invocation of them without entirely eliminating discovery by increasing the delay. Many kids have motor skills, and the ones that don't initially are remarkably good (being kids) at developing motor skills that they don't yet have. Many kids also read. In fact, let's cut into some real deep philosophy stuff here... True. But all kids matter. Including the nonreaders, the ones going to schools that are not taught in their native language, the ones for whom reading is a struggle, the dyslectics. Also I really disagree about the developing motor skills. I think developing motor skills is a developmental thing that goes at different paces. I see kids that can get the concepts of Sugar but who struggle with clicking the blocks together in Turtle Art. I think they are perfectly normal kids who will eventually have perfectly adequate motor skills for normal computing. Providing them with a system that is as easy as possible for them while those motor skills are developing should be one of our missions. The idea that the XO laptop is mainly for kids who can't read is completely bogus. Now, maybe you're thinking of other children when you say this, but I prefer to first consider the main existing userbase. Laptops which have Sugar installed on them are primarily located in schools and are used for education. It is kind of ridiculous to say Well, you don't actually need to know how to read to use the laptops, so we should make the interface not require reading. when the truth is that, for most activities that have any educational merit, you DO need to read and you need to read things significantly more complicated than activity names. Most of the people who use Sugar for most of the time WILL know how to read. I disagree on this too. I think there a host of activities that nonreaders could use in Sugar. Paint, Colors, Jingsaw, Flipsticks, Write (writing a great way to learn to read), speak, many GCompris Games, Calculate, books that are read to you, Browse if you share a favorited website. In fact if you share a started activity then you further expand the number of things a nonreader could do. I agree with this, that's what I think of when I hear low floor, no ceiling. Regards, Tomeu -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- DancesWithCars leave the wolves behind ;-) ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[Sugar-devel] Should we care about non readers and kids with motor skill issues? was - Re: RFC: Kill the delayed menus for good
Perhaps. What would you define as the ailment, yourself? The primary intent was to encourage use of a direct interaction model, in which palettes we're supposed to play a big role. When it turned out that young kids, who didn't read, and who didn't have motor skills for selecting form the palettes, we aimed to reduce accidental invocation of them without entirely eliminating discovery by increasing the delay. Many kids have motor skills, and the ones that don't initially are remarkably good (being kids) at developing motor skills that they don't yet have. Many kids also read. In fact, let's cut into some real deep philosophy stuff here... True. But all kids matter. Including the nonreaders, the ones going to schools that are not taught in their native language, the ones for whom reading is a struggle, the dyslectics. Also I really disagree about the developing motor skills. I think developing motor skills is a developmental thing that goes at different paces. I see kids that can get the concepts of Sugar but who struggle with clicking the blocks together in Turtle Art. I think they are perfectly normal kids who will eventually have perfectly adequate motor skills for normal computing. Providing them with a system that is as easy as possible for them while those motor skills are developing should be one of our missions. The idea that the XO laptop is mainly for kids who can't read is completely bogus. Now, maybe you're thinking of other children when you say this, but I prefer to first consider the main existing userbase. Laptops which have Sugar installed on them are primarily located in schools and are used for education. It is kind of ridiculous to say Well, you don't actually need to know how to read to use the laptops, so we should make the interface not require reading. when the truth is that, for most activities that have any educational merit, you DO need to read and you need to read things significantly more complicated than activity names. Most of the people who use Sugar for most of the time WILL know how to read. I disagree on this too. I think there a host of activities that nonreaders could use in Sugar. Paint, Colors, Jingsaw, Flipsticks, Write (writing a great way to learn to read), speak, many GCompris Games, Calculate, books that are read to you, Browse if you share a favorited website. In fact if you share a started activity then you further expand the number of things a nonreader could do. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
