[Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Deleting an entry in the Journal while the activity is running
Hi, I came across the following: There is an option to delete an entry in the Journal entry palette and one in the detail section of an entry. This entry is as well available when an activity is running. Currently when you delete an entry of a running activity the entry gets recreated when closing the running activity. So we do not have any data loss. Two options I discussed so far with Sascha on irc: We could either make the delete option inactive when an activity is running or display an alert when the button is pressed. Any other options? How do you like them? Personal Note: While I like the inactive-option I am not sure this tells the user why an option is not available. Regards, Simon ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Deleting an entry in the Journal while the activity is running
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 01:01:22PM +0100, Simon Schampijer wrote: Hi, I came across the following: There is an option to delete an entry in the Journal entry palette and one in the detail section of an entry. This entry is as well available when an activity is running. Currently when you delete an entry of a running activity the entry gets recreated when closing the running activity. So we do not have any data loss. Two options I discussed so far with Sascha on irc: We could either make the delete option inactive when an activity is running or display an alert when the button is pressed. Any other options? How do you like them? Personal Note: While I like the inactive-option I am not sure this tells the user why an option is not available. In my mind problem here is not with deletion(in mind it should just work, delete entry w/o any popups and inactive modes) but with workflow when activities write to journal on every deactivation. Not sure how we can fix last issue but sure that fixing 1st one at first is a crutch. -- Aleksey ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Deleting an entry in the Journal while the activity is running
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:30:40PM +, Aleksey Lim wrote: In my mind problem here is not with deletion(in mind it should just work, delete entry w/o any popups and inactive modes) but with workflow when activities write to journal on every deactivation. I disagree. Having the activities save their state automatically on closing is important for not losing any work done by the user. And while we should optimize activities to not save during their runtime (i.e. for window switches) if there hasn't been change since last save, we need to at least update the timestamp on close. If we compare our system to real activities, deleting a Journal object that is still open doesn't make a lot of sense: It's like throwing a painting into the garbage while you're still drawing on it. To get our model back in sync two options come to my mind: 1. Prevent deletion while the activity is still running. 2. Automatically close the running activity (on switching away from it we have saved, so there are no unsaved changes left to write on closing it). Originally I preferred #1, but maybe #2 makes more sense to the user. Just hope nobody discovers it as a way to close activities (especially depending on the particular translation of delete)... CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Deleting an entry in the Journal while the activity is running
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Aleksey Lim alsr...@member.fsf.org wrote: On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 01:01:22PM +0100, Simon Schampijer wrote: Hi, I came across the following: There is an option to delete an entry in the Journal entry palette and one in the detail section of an entry. This entry is as well available when an activity is running. Currently when you delete an entry of a running activity the entry gets recreated when closing the running activity. So we do not have any data loss. Two options I discussed so far with Sascha on irc: We could either make the delete option inactive when an activity is running or display an alert when the button is pressed. Any other options? How do you like them? Personal Note: While I like the inactive-option I am not sure this tells the user why an option is not available. In my mind problem here is not with deletion(in mind it should just work, delete entry w/o any popups and inactive modes) but with workflow when activities write to journal on every deactivation. Not sure how we can fix last issue but sure that fixing 1st one at first is a crutch. -- Aleksey ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel I agree with Aleksey that delete should just work. The place for any dialog would be in the activity itself, when it goes to write. But it is not clear to me that the current behavior is necessarily a bug. But following up on Sascha's suggestion, if we need to (1) notify the activity to do a save when the delete occurs and don't save except on changes, then any subsequent changes would presumably be an intentional override by the user. (2) Catching the time stamp would be the only other point of intervention. Question: is this still a problem in the world of real versioning? -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Deleting an entry in the Journal while the activity is running
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:30:40PM +, Aleksey Lim wrote: On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 01:01:22PM +0100, Simon Schampijer wrote: Hi, I came across the following: There is an option to delete an entry in the Journal entry palette and one in the detail section of an entry. This entry is as well available when an activity is running. Currently when you delete an entry of a running activity the entry gets recreated when closing the running activity. So we do not have any data loss. Two options I discussed so far with Sascha on irc: We could either make the delete option inactive when an activity is running or display an alert when the button is pressed. Any other options? How do you like them? Personal Note: While I like the inactive-option I am not sure this tells the user why an option is not available. In my mind problem here is not with deletion(in mind it should just work, delete entry w/o any popups and inactive modes) but with workflow when activities write to journal on every deactivation. Not sure how we can fix last issue but sure that fixing 1st one at first is a crutch. The idea I had in mind is implicit place for implicit save(on every activity deactivation) and explicit place(journal) for explicit save(Stop or Keep buttons in activity) So, delete will just work(will delete current explicit journal object) and if activity is still open, new object will appear in journal only if user click Stop or Keep buttons (or on activity crash, tmp object will appear as well). -- Aleksey ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Deleting an entry in the Journal while the activity is running
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 08:08:47AM -0500, Walter Bender wrote: But following up on Sascha's suggestion, if we need to (1) notify the activity to do a save when the delete occurs and don't save except on changes, then any subsequent changes would presumably be an intentional override by the user. (2) Catching the time stamp would be the only other point of intervention. Just to make it clear: There's no need to notify the activity to make it save prior to deletion: It already saved on switching from the activity to the Journal. Question: is this still a problem in the world of real versioning? The current model (*) is to delete single versions (and cope with holes in the history), not the entire entry (i.e. all versions of it). The effect of deleting a version is to make it disappear from history, showing the parent instead in the Journal if it was the most recent one. Saving a more recent version on activity close after deletion would fit into that model, but IMO still be unexpected (as it contains the changes you just deleted). That being said, the current implementation would break (while closing the activity) if you delete the current version while the activity is still running as it requires the parent version (which has just been deleted) to exist. (*) As evolved from design discussions; I'm still not sure it is the right thing to do. CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Deleting an entry in the Journal while the activity is running
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 01:30:16PM +, Aleksey Lim wrote: The idea I had in mind is implicit place for implicit save(on every activity deactivation) and explicit place(journal) for explicit save(Stop or Keep buttons in activity) It seems I still don't understand what you mean. Can you please elaborate on what exactly you would like to change and what the workflow would look like to the user? CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Deleting an entry in the Journal while the activity is running
On 25 Jan 2010, at 12:01, Simon Schampijer wrote: Hi, I came across the following: There is an option to delete an entry in the Journal entry palette and one in the detail section of an entry. This entry is as well available when an activity is running. Currently when you delete an entry of a running activity the entry gets recreated when closing the running activity. So we do not have any data loss. Two options I discussed so far with Sascha on irc: We could either make the delete option inactive when an activity is running or display an alert when the button is pressed. Any other options? How do you like them? FWIW: Having read Sascha's Walter's and Aleksey's responses, I think I prefer just inactivating the erase UIs for instantiated activity objects, as Simon already mentioned. Perhaps another slant on this would be to change** Journal erase into stop palette entries for instantiated activities? ** I know we're not big on menu items that change function, but I'll be damned if I'm going to suggest adding a stop item to every Journal object palette (and the details view toolbar); the Journal palettes are already way too large/complicated... [though it would still seem to be a valid reinforcement of the object model] Regards, --Gary Personal Note: While I like the inactive-option I am not sure this tells the user why an option is not available. Regards, Simon ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Deleting an entry in the Journal while the activity is running
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 02:58:46PM +0100, Sascha Silbe wrote: On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 01:30:16PM +, Aleksey Lim wrote: The idea I had in mind is implicit place for implicit save(on every activity deactivation) and explicit place(journal) for explicit save(Stop or Keep buttons in activity) It seems I still don't understand what you mean. Can you please elaborate on what exactly you would like to change and what the workflow would look like to the user? I just think that original problem, that Simon mentioned, is not in place of fixing deletion workflow but in place when new entry will appear after switching-to-activity-then-back-to-journal. So, idea was just keeping tmp state of activateed object but not exposing it in journal. If user deleted journal entry which is active right now, entry will be just deleted and will appear in journal only after explicit saving in activity. All this is related only to current ds implementation and at the end I agree with Gary and Simon that we can just inactivate delete menu entry(since what I proposed could not be trivial implemented). -- Aleksey ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
