Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration
Hi, Walter A quick survey of the 450 xos in my snapshot (including the installed set) shows 69 using sugar3 and 381 using sugar. I'll try to prepare a list of the unconverted (infidel) for possible use as GCI tasks. Tony ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration
Very interesting discussion. Perhaps the difficulties that Tony describes can be interpreted as emergent properties of the development process. However, others on private mailing lists, who are not so well informed, perceived these emergent properties as intended outcomes. These others are generally disengaged from the development process; as users they are neither reporting tickets nor testing new versions. They get what they pay for. (I don't like private mailing lists or the segregation of community; yet we keep increasing the segregation; e.g. socialhelp). Overall, I'm encouraged. -- James Cameron http://quozl.netrek.org/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration
Hi, Walter Because of gmail issue, I am sending this through Sugar-devel. Most of the activities included in 0.106 (XO-1.5+) release have been moved to GTK3. The exceptions are: Calculate, Clock, Implode, Labyrinth, Measure, Moon, Pippy, Record, Speak, and TurtleBlocks. I suspect that many or even most of the remaining activities in ASLO have not been converted. I'll run a check on my snapshot (9/15) today to identify ones that are not that could also be candidates for a GCI task. So far only one GCI participant has reported attempting to update ASLO. The completed GCI activities will need to be updated on ASLO once we get the problems with the dependent software resolved. Meanwhile, kudos to Cristian for the work on ShowNTell. He replaced Hulahop with WebKit and also moved the activity to GTK3. Tony On 12/28/2015 12:24 AM, James Cameron wrote: Very interesting discussion. Perhaps the difficulties that Tony describes can be interpreted as emergent properties of the development process. However, others on private mailing lists, who are not so well informed, perceived these emergent properties as intended outcomes. These others are generally disengaged from the development process; as users they are neither reporting tickets nor testing new versions. They get what they pay for. (I don't like private mailing lists or the segregation of community; yet we keep increasing the segregation; e.g. socialhelp). Overall, I'm encouraged. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration
Quoting Tony Anderson (2015-12-26 21:11:09) > I guess you see how far out from the developer community I am. I > associate sucrose with Activity Central. I am not sure what a sucrose > developer is. You need not know the details of how the parts of a code eco-system is divided in order to help: Report bugs to the corresponding issue tracker, and those who know better will pass on the information to the right part of the eco-system. ...but I strongly advice you to try not be judgemental without even understanding (just the very broad) anatomy of the thing you judge: Ask instead of judging! What I am referring to is your telling (not asking) that GStreamer works fine, which spawned this subthread. > The involved developers have been doing well. However, for many of the > activities in ASLO, the original contributors have moved on, a natural > situation in open source. Sure it is natural for developers to move on, and as a consequence, it is natural for some projects (those left without active developers) to to stop working when the underlying environment develops. Such situation is called "bit-rot", and calls for either new devoted developers to step in, or that code to be dropped. In such situations it is not helpful to point at "the old code worked fine, there was no need to change anything" - if you wanna live in the past then simply don't upgrade the _whole_ system at all. > There is no attempt to point fingers, the decision is there. If Sugar > is to move to the mobile device, it appears necessary to work in a > Javascript not Python environment. So an activity developer/maintainer > needs to decide whether his investment in time in GTK is warranted or > should be spent it in rewriting the activity as a Sugar-web-activity. You bring Javascript into this conversation, not me. For my part, we are talking about migration from GTK+ 2.x to GTK+ 3.x and how some activities fall behind in that transition. Kind regards, - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration
Tony, if you have a list of activities that need porting to GTK3, please let me know: it makes for nice GCI projects. That is how, in fact much of the updating happened over the past few years. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration
Hi, Jonas True - either that or ditch the activities evidently too badly maintained to work well with modern Sugar. Aye, There's the rub! Is the problem 'bad maintenance or none at all' or 'modern' Sugar. Certainly TuxMath is suffering from 'abandonment'. However, even abandoned code continues to run when the underlying support is there. In this case, programmers who were not involved in the development or maintenance of the code will have to figure out how to get it running again or rewrite it in Javascript. The port of activities to GTK+ 3.x seems to have stalled because of the higher priority to re-implement activities such as TurtleBlocks in javascript. Consider the long-term job security in rewriting Sim City in javascript as a Sugar-web-activity. Gstreamer In the case of gstreamer 0.1, I was able to find how to install the codecs: #script to enable webm, mp3, mp4, m4a, m4v for gstreamer-0.10 sudo cp libgstmad.so /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10/ sudo chmod 755 /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10/libgstmad.so sudo cp libmad.so.0 /usr/lib sudo chmod 755 /usr/lib/libmad.so.0 sudo cp libgstfaad.so /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10 sudo chmod 755 /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10/libgstfaad.so sudo cp libfaad.so.2.0.0 /usr/lib sudo chmod 755 /usr/lib/libfaad.so.2.0.0 sudo yum install gstreamer-ffmpeg-0.10.13-8.fc18.i686.rpm sudo ldconfig sudo rm -rf /home/olpc/.gstreamer-0.10/registry.i386.bin The script is the same for XO-1, XO-1.5, XO-1.75, XO-4 except that the specific files must match the architecture. I have no idea where /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10 went in gstreamer-1.0. As I recall, gstreamer-1.0 does not provide the registry.i386.bin which is required to register the codecs. Given the limited capacity of the XO what I do not want to do is install whole repositories, just the necessary files. I am certainly sure that everyone is bored to tears on this subject since I have mentioned it so many times already. Tony On 12/26/2015 01:31 PM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Tony Anderson (2015-12-26 16:29:09) Yet more examples of this broken software problem. I would call it examples of _unmaintained_ software. I.e. in my opinion for these examples the Sugar environment does the right thing of both a) moving to GTK+ 3.x while b) providing legacy support for GTK+ 2.x for several years. Issues then emerge with activities neglecting to migrate for several years to GTK+ 3.x. I have scripts which provide the 'bad and ugly' codecs for GStreamer 0.10 which work very well. Which codecs? GStreamer 1.0 also provides bad and ugly codecs - so an obvious first step is to ensure they are installed for your system. In the case of the Debian system, installing the package sugar-jukebox-activity by default pulls in the bad set but you will need to explicitly install the ugly set (because the very reason those are shipped separately is that they may cause your system to become less stable). If, on a Debian system, you install the metapackage sucrose then both the bad and ugly sets gets installed (always, not only by default, bcause the purpose of that metapackage is to ensure that as much of Sucrose as is packaged for Debian gets installed). I have had to regress to Jukebox 26 in order for this to work, Sounds like you have done some research on this. I recommend that you a) file a bugreport about this (if one is not filed already), and then b) refer to the bugreport each time you bring it up - e.g. in conversations like this one. Avoiding GTK + 2.x implies porting all 400 Sugar activities to GTK 3! True - either that or ditch the activities evidently too badly maintained to work well with modern Sugar. - Jonas ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration
Quoting Tony Anderson (2015-12-26 16:29:09) > Yet more examples of this broken software problem. I would call it examples of _unmaintained_ software. I.e. in my opinion for these examples the Sugar environment does the right thing of both a) moving to GTK+ 3.x while b) providing legacy support for GTK+ 2.x for several years. Issues then emerge with activities neglecting to migrate for several years to GTK+ 3.x. > I have scripts which provide the 'bad and ugly' codecs for GStreamer > 0.10 which work very well. Which codecs? GStreamer 1.0 also provides bad and ugly codecs - so an obvious first step is to ensure they are installed for your system. In the case of the Debian system, installing the package sugar-jukebox-activity by default pulls in the bad set but you will need to explicitly install the ugly set (because the very reason those are shipped separately is that they may cause your system to become less stable). If, on a Debian system, you install the metapackage sucrose then both the bad and ugly sets gets installed (always, not only by default, bcause the purpose of that metapackage is to ensure that as much of Sucrose as is packaged for Debian gets installed). > I have had to regress to Jukebox 26 in order for this to work, Sounds like you have done some research on this. I recommend that you a) file a bugreport about this (if one is not filed already), and then b) refer to the bugreport each time you bring it up - e.g. in conversations like this one. > Avoiding GTK + 2.x implies porting all 400 Sugar activities to GTK 3! True - either that or ditch the activities evidently too badly maintained to work well with modern Sugar. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration
Hi, Jonas I guess you see how far out from the developer community I am. I associate sucrose with Activity Central. I am not sure what a sucrose developer is. The involved developers have been doing well. However, for many of the activities in ASLO, the original contributors have moved on, a natural situation in open source. There is no attempt to point fingers, the decision is there. If Sugar is to move to the mobile device, it appears necessary to work in a Javascript not Python environment. So an activity developer/maintainer needs to decide whether his investment in time in GTK is warranted or should be spent it in rewriting the activity as a Sugar-web-activity. Tony On 12/26/2015 04:58 PM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Tony Anderson (2015-12-26 19:53:47) [Jonas wrote:] True - either that or ditch the activities evidently too badly maintained to work well with modern Sugar. Aye, There's the rub! Is the problem 'bad maintenance or none at all' or 'modern' Sugar. Certainly TuxMath is suffering from 'abandonment'. However, even abandoned code continues to run when the underlying support is there. In this case, programmers who were not involved in the development or maintenance of the code will have to figure out how to get it running again or rewrite it in Javascript. Wrong: In this case all developers were involved at their various levels of the chains of events but some of them were inactive: GTK+ developers chose to improve their code beyond what a previous API could contain and sensibly bumped API and kept alive the previous API for ages. Sucrose developers chose to build their code on top of GTK+ and sensibly handled the API split of GTK+ including maintenance of a legacy interface for ages. Activity developers chose to build their code on top of Sucrose and some of them sensibly migrated to new interfaces, but sadly some activity developers did not react yet - and *that* is not sensible. The port of activities to GTK+ 3.x seems to have stalled because of the higher priority to re-implement activities such as TurtleBlocks in javascript. Consider the long-term job security in rewriting Sim City in javascript as a Sugar-web-activity. Are you pointing fingers at other volunteers choosing to spend their time in a way you disaprove of, or have you provided patches to migrate some activities but have been turned down? In the case of gstreamer 0.1, I was able to find how to install the codecs: [...] I am certainly sure that everyone is bored to tears on this subject since I have mentioned it so many times already. Did you "mention" it through the appropriate issue tracker? - Jonas ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Current status of GTK+ 3.x migration
Quoting Tony Anderson (2015-12-26 19:53:47) [Jonas wrote:] >> True - either that or ditch the activities evidently too badly >> maintained to work well with modern Sugar. > > Aye, There's the rub! > > Is the problem 'bad maintenance or none at all' or 'modern' Sugar. > Certainly TuxMath is suffering from 'abandonment'. However, even > abandoned code continues to run when the underlying support is there. > In this case, programmers who were not involved in the development or > maintenance of the code will have to figure out how to get it running > again or rewrite it in Javascript. Wrong: In this case all developers were involved at their various levels of the chains of events but some of them were inactive: GTK+ developers chose to improve their code beyond what a previous API could contain and sensibly bumped API and kept alive the previous API for ages. Sucrose developers chose to build their code on top of GTK+ and sensibly handled the API split of GTK+ including maintenance of a legacy interface for ages. Activity developers chose to build their code on top of Sucrose and some of them sensibly migrated to new interfaces, but sadly some activity developers did not react yet - and *that* is not sensible. > The port of activities to GTK+ 3.x seems to have stalled because of > the higher priority to re-implement activities such as TurtleBlocks in > javascript. Consider the long-term job security in rewriting Sim City > in javascript as a Sugar-web-activity. Are you pointing fingers at other volunteers choosing to spend their time in a way you disaprove of, or have you provided patches to migrate some activities but have been turned down? > In the case of gstreamer 0.1, I was able to find how to install the > codecs: [...] > I am certainly sure that everyone is bored to tears on this subject > since I have mentioned it so many times already. Did you "mention" it through the appropriate issue tracker? - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
