Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
I very much hope that whatever UI design is settled on for the font configuration control panel that: 1) whatever needs to be clicked on will be large enough both for younger children and senior citizens; 2) the solution will include both an easy *and obvious* "1 up" and "1 down" option. In this regard I completely agree with Daniel, as this will likely be the most frequently desired usage. Dragging a slider to increment/decrement by 1 is unnecessarily cumbersome and tricky. Perhaps having two designated boxes to click, in addition to the slider, would be the best idea. Art Hunkins ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote: > It may make sense to allow setting of the font as well. While the > default "Sans" may be good enough for most European scripts, it may > cause problems for Arabic, Asian, South Asian scripts, etc. "Sans" > usually resolves to DejaVu Sans, etc, which often carry suboptimal > glyphs from non Latin scripts (to serve as a worst case fallback if > nothing else is available). This can be worked around with clever > fontconfig rules, but that would be painful to do for each and every > script out there, and it might be useful to allow the user to choose > the font-face along with the size. Painful, but I'd argue that this is a necessary part of making a properly localized build. As discussed in another thread recently, it's very confusing to have a plethora of fonts available all with overlapping codesets. Better would be to put in the work to make at least the basic "Sans" font (and maybe "Serif" as well) have good coverage of unicode via fontconfig. This is a separate issue from "whether the font control panel should allow you to change the system font". I'd say that the font control panel *should* let you customize the font, just because it's fun. I've made similar arguments before about the home screen, colors, etc, etc. It's fun, and it lets kids make the computers their own. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 4:19 PM, C. Scott Ananian wrote: > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Albert Cahalan wrote: >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 2:50 PM, C. Scott Ananian wrote: >> >>> Really, the problems described here can all be solved by careful font >>> selection and configuration. Fontconfig allows 'virtual fonts' which >>> can combine the best parts of a number of font files. >> >> Please explain how this solves the problem of having >> multiple fonts in the GUI that all look the same to a >> single-language user. >> >> (for example, 100 fonts with foreign-sounding names >> that all look **exactly** like DejaVu Sans) > > You should configure fontconfig to only show *one* "Sans" font which > includes the relevant parts of all these other script-specific fonts > for the appropriate unicode ranges. I don't think "Sans" should pretend to be a font. The GUI should have the correct font name. > Fonts which map script-specific > differences which do not have a roman-script equivalent should either > be given names which make this clear (made up example: "Sans (North > Korea)", "Sans (South Korea)") and/or omitted from deployments This is unsatisfying and/or troublesome. Last I looked (which was some time ago) there were about 20 Arabic fonts in the standard OS builds. They all looked **exactly** like DejaVu Sans. What if I do want multi-script text? If I can't pick a distinct font for each script, then I have to change fonts all over the document. (assuming I'm not happy with the default pairing) ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Albert Cahalan wrote: > selection of the font. If I remember right, there are about 14 scripts > in active use around the world. For the record: "The number of human languages is much larger than the number of systems for writing them down, but the definitive reference on the subject, The World's Writing Systems (Peter T. Daniels and William Bright, eds.), still has 74 big sections, most of which discuss not one but a family of related writing systems. The Unicode system, which we'll discuss in depth, covers some three dozen different language-oriented character sets." http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/04/06/Unicode --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 2:50 PM, C. Scott Ananian wrote:
>
>> Really, the problems described here can all be solved by careful font
>> selection and configuration. Fontconfig allows 'virtual fonts' which
>> can combine the best parts of a number of font files.
>
> Please explain how this solves the problem of having
> multiple fonts in the GUI that all look the same to a
> single-language user.
>
> (for example, 100 fonts with foreign-sounding names
> that all look **exactly** like DejaVu Sans)
You should configure fontconfig to only show *one* "Sans" font which
includes the relevant parts of all these other script-specific fonts
for the appropriate unicode ranges. Fonts which map script-specific
differences which do not have a roman-script equivalent should either
be given names which make this clear (made up example: "Sans (North
Korea)", "Sans (South Korea)") and/or omitted from deployments
targeted at roman-script language groups, with a fontconfig which
directs the use of an appropriate alias font ("Sans", which has
compromise glyphs for Korean, listed as an alias for both "Sans (North
Korea)" and "Sans (South Korea)").
--scott
--
( http://cscott.net/ )
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 2:50 PM, C. Scott Ananian wrote: > Really, the problems described here can all be solved by careful font > selection and configuration. Fontconfig allows 'virtual fonts' which > can combine the best parts of a number of font files. Please explain how this solves the problem of having multiple fonts in the GUI that all look the same to a single-language user. (for example, 100 fonts with foreign-sounding names that all look **exactly** like DejaVu Sans) ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
On Saturday, January 30, 2010, Albert Cahalan wrote: > selection of the font. If I remember right, there are about 14 scripts > in active use around the world. Ha! If only! Really, the problems described here can all be solved by careful font selection and configuration. Fontconfig allows 'virtual fonts' which can combine the best parts of a number of font files. --Scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 12:39, Tim McNamara wrote: > It is released under an open font licence, however I remember hearing > difficulties with typeface licencing & GPL. > The FSF doesn't state that the SIL OFL is incompatible with the GPL: http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html#Fonts On the other hand, they don't go out of their way to state its compatibility either. -- Luke Faraone http://luke.faraone.cc ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
2010/1/31 Albert Cahalan
> Sayamindu Dasgupta writes:
>
> > It may make sense to allow setting of the font as well. While the
> > default "Sans" may be good enough for most European scripts, it may
> > cause problems for Arabic, Asian, South Asian scripts, etc. "Sans"
> > usually resolves to DejaVu Sans, etc, which often carry suboptimal
> > glyphs from non Latin scripts
>
> I think it's only fair that you get suboptimal glyphs too. :-)
>
> DejaVu Sans looks bad even for English with plain ASCII. Among other
> things, somebody invented a screwy non-standard way to distinguish the
> lowercase L ("l") character. That sort of "innovation" just isn't what
> you do in a system-wide default font. The rest is messed up too.
>
> BTW, consider a document containing several languages. You'd normally
> want all the Latin-based ones to use one font, all the Cyrillic ones to
> use one font, and so on. In other words, per-script (not per-language)
> selection of the font. If I remember right, there are about 14 scripts
> in active use around the world.
>
>
I thought that Gentium may have a sans serif typeface. No, but they refer to
Andika SIL : "Andika is a sans serif, Unicode-compliant font designed
especially for literacy use, taking into account the needs of beginning
readers. The focus is on clear, easy-to-perceive letterforms that will not
be readily confused with one another."
Seems to fit the bill very well. It is released under an open font licence,
however I remember hearing difficulties with typeface licencing & GPL.
Here's a link:
http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scrIpts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=Andika
Tim McNamara
Identi.ca / Twitter: @timClicks
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
Sayamindu Dasgupta writes:
> It may make sense to allow setting of the font as well. While the
> default "Sans" may be good enough for most European scripts, it may
> cause problems for Arabic, Asian, South Asian scripts, etc. "Sans"
> usually resolves to DejaVu Sans, etc, which often carry suboptimal
> glyphs from non Latin scripts
I think it's only fair that you get suboptimal glyphs too. :-)
DejaVu Sans looks bad even for English with plain ASCII. Among other
things, somebody invented a screwy non-standard way to distinguish the
lowercase L ("l") character. That sort of "innovation" just isn't what
you do in a system-wide default font. The rest is messed up too.
BTW, consider a document containing several languages. You'd normally
want all the Latin-based ones to use one font, all the Cyrillic ones to
use one font, and so on. In other words, per-script (not per-language)
selection of the font. If I remember right, there are about 14 scripts
in active use around the world.
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Daniel Drake wrote: > 2010/1/19 Yevlempy(Harsh Verma) : >> Hi >> >> I am working on building the font configuring control panel, it will be a >> pygtk based control panel extension for >> handling the fonts. I have been working on few mockups for designing the >> font configuring control panel. There >> are three different kind of rough mockups i am giving here, with there own >> features and would like your advice >> and feedback on which to work upon. > > Is there a reason you haven't taken the 2-button approach proposed in > the Feature page? > http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Font_configuration > > The font size does not need to be presented to the user. I agree that the actual font size isn't important. However, I think the slider is a nicer presentation of the possible range. Perhaps the slider just has "small" and "large" labels at the ends, and a "default" label fixed somewhere in the middle. Coupling that with a real-time resizing label would provide great feedback. Eben > Daniel > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
2010/1/19 Yevlempy(Harsh Verma) : > Hi > > I am working on building the font configuring control panel, it will be a > pygtk based control panel extension for > handling the fonts. I have been working on few mockups for designing the > font configuring control panel. There > are three different kind of rough mockups i am giving here, with there own > features and would like your advice > and feedback on which to work upon. Is there a reason you haven't taken the 2-button approach proposed in the Feature page? http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Font_configuration The font size does not need to be presented to the user. Daniel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 00:41, James Cameron wrote: >> I prefer the first option ... and I'd also like an example of the font >> size shown; preferrably a few words that wrap. > > I agree with both points. > It may make sense to allow setting of the font as well. While the default "Sans" may be good enough for most European scripts, it may cause problems for Arabic, Asian, South Asian scripts, etc. "Sans" usually resolves to DejaVu Sans, etc, which often carry suboptimal glyphs from non Latin scripts (to serve as a worst case fallback if nothing else is available). This can be worked around with clever fontconfig rules, but that would be painful to do for each and every script out there, and it might be useful to allow the user to choose the font-face along with the size. -sdg- -- Sayamindu Dasgupta [http://sayamindu.randomink.org/ramblings] ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 00:41, James Cameron wrote: > I prefer the first option ... and I'd also like an example of the font > size shown; preferrably a few words that wrap. I agree with both points. Regards, Tomeu > -- > James Cameron > http://quozl.linux.org.au/ > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
I prefer the first option ... and I'd also like an example of the font size shown; preferrably a few words that wrap. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
Do all these methods require restart? (I assume restart is essentially "reboot system".) Is reboot required to cleanly change default font? Art Hunkins - Original Message - From: Yevlempy(Harsh Verma) To: Sugar-dev Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 2:22 PM Subject: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration Hi I am working on building the font configuring control panel, it will be a pygtk based control panel extension for handling the fonts. I have been working on few mockups for designing the font configuring control panel. There are three different kind of rough mockups i am giving here, with there own features and would like your advice and feedback on which to work upon. 1> http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8779/sugarfontpanel1.png This contains a simple drag menu to adjust the size as starting from 5 to 48 with default 10 and default font Sans Serif .[1]This will also contain a restart sign at the bottom of the frame. 2>http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4790/sugarfontpanel2.png This contains the same features as in gnome font panel, the button at the middle of the frame works same as desktop fonts work in gnome, on pressing it we will get various font and size changing options. 3>http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5271/sugarfontpanel3.png The third one will kinda work as the language settings in sugar works i.e a dropdown menu will appear containing the font sizes. [1] By saying this i mean a icon at the bottom that updates the changes in font, the next time system is rebooted Kindly provide your feedback, so that i can start working on it. Thanks, yevlempy -- yevlempy | Harsh Verma Fedora Ambassador(INDIA) http://yevlempy.wordpress.com/ -- ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
Hi Yevlempy, On 19 Jan 2010, at 19:22, Yevlempy(Harsh Verma) wrote: > Hi > > I am working on building the font configuring control panel, it will be a > pygtk based control panel extension for > handling the fonts. Cool, thanks for volunteering! > I have been working on few mockups for designing the font configuring control > panel. There > are three different kind of rough mockups i am giving here, with there own > features and would like your advice > and feedback on which to work upon. > > 1> http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8779/sugarfontpanel1.png > This contains a simple drag menu to adjust the size as starting from 5 to 48 > with default 10 and default font Sans > Serif .[1]This will also contain a restart sign at the bottom of the frame. This 1st design appeals to me the most. Simple, clean, not too overwhelming. Will there be a mark or label where the default "10" value would be, so that once you move it, you know what the original default was? Am I right in assuming that just the font size is being adjusted (the other designs suggest that the font may also change). For the "restart button", other control panels reveal an alert if you try to exit with a changed value (and show a small warning triangle and message at the bottom of the canvas once you change from the current value). <> Regards, --Gary > 2>http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4790/sugarfontpanel2.png > This contains the same features as in gnome font panel, the button at the > middle of the frame works same as > desktop fonts work in gnome, on pressing it we will get various font and size > changing options. > > 3>http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5271/sugarfontpanel3.png > The third one will kinda work as the language settings in sugar works i.e a > dropdown menu will > appear containing the font sizes. > > [1] By saying this i mean a icon at the bottom that updates the changes in > font, the next time > system is rebooted > > Kindly provide your feedback, so that i can start working on it. > > Thanks, > yevlempy > -- > yevlempy | Harsh Verma > Fedora Ambassador(INDIA) > http://yevlempy.wordpress.com/ > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Control Panel Font configuration
Hi Yevlempy, thanks for stepping up and taking this task! Welcome in the team ;D On 01/19/2010 08:22 PM, Yevlempy(Harsh Verma) wrote: > Hi > > I am working on building the font configuring control panel, it will be a > pygtk based control panel extension for > handling the fonts. I have been working on few mockups for designing the > font configuring control panel. There > are three different kind of rough mockups i am giving here, with there own > features and would like your advice > and feedback on which to work upon. I have added your topic to the design meeting next Saturday (15:30 UTC). If you can attend even better, otherwise I will forward the feedback. So latest you get feedback about the design after this weekend. So, in the meantime you can start looking at the extensions code [2] for a control panel. Have you setup your Sugar environment [3] already? Please let us know if any guidance is needed? Thanks, Simon PS: Btw, it would be great to document this process of writing a Control Panel extension. So if you take notes while going, and of course point out the parts where we lack documentation etc that would be helpful :) [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/0.88_Meeting#Font_configuration [2] http://git.sugarlabs.org/projects/sugar/repos/mainline/trees/master/extensions/cpsection [3] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Jhbuild ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
