Re: Art in dialling
I would like to thank all the collegues that have sent me a responce to my request. Some of them got the centre of my request. I will write privately to let know what photos are of my interest. Thank you Mario --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Horas benedictinus
An archeologist discovered a very old sundial on a church in a small village in south of Poland. It is a scratch dial with no gnomon nor any hour markings except for a few lines and a hole in the middle. As good as I could I tried to describe this kind of dials giving other examples found in this area. He seemed to be satisfied however he asked if the dial could be related to HORAS BENEDICTINUS. This terms is new to me. Could someone help me understand this, please? What does it refer to? -- Best regards Darek Oczki 52N 21E Warsaw, Poland GNOMONIKA.pl Sundials in Poland http://gnomonika.pl --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Horas benedictinus
Dear Darek, By horas benedictinus, he means the hours according to the Benedictine Rule--better known as the hours of the divine office. These are unequal hours used by the monks for the times of prayer: prime,..., tercesext...nones...etc. The Catholic church used these hours in regulating masses and other prayer services. Sara 42°36'N 71° 22'W West Newton, MA 02465 -Original Message- From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Darek Oczki Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:32 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Horas benedictinus An archeologist discovered a very old sundial on a church in a small village in south of Poland. It is a scratch dial with no gnomon nor any hour markings except for a few lines and a hole in the middle. As good as I could I tried to describe this kind of dials giving other examples found in this area. He seemed to be satisfied however he asked if the dial could be related to HORAS BENEDICTINUS. This terms is new to me. Could someone help me understand this, please? What does it refer to? -- Best regards Darek Oczki 52N 21E Warsaw, Poland GNOMONIKA.pl Sundials in Poland http://gnomonika.pl --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Horas benedictinus
You should see an image, in each case on the Sundial Atlas you find. For example: www.sundialatlas.eu/atlas.php?so=ES1185 Mario Arnaldi can help you. Ciao Fabio Garnero Il giorno 10/apr/13, alle ore 15:31, Darek Oczki ha scritto: An archeologist discovered a very old sundial on a church in a small village in south of Poland. It is a scratch dial with no gnomon nor any hour markings except for a few lines and a hole in the middle. As good as I could I tried to describe this kind of dials giving other examples found in this area. He seemed to be satisfied however he asked if the dial could be related to HORAS BENEDICTINUS. This terms is new to me. Could someone help me understand this, please? What does it refer to? -- Best regards Darek Oczki 52N 21E Warsaw, Poland GNOMONIKA.pl Sundials in Poland http://gnomonika.pl --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
R: Horas benedictinus
Hi Darek, the Horas Benedictinus, are related to the the canonical hours used by benedictine monks for the religious office in his churches: Hora Prima, Hora Secunda, Hora Tertia, Hora Sexta... The ancient roman temporary hours was adapted by benetictine monks for his prayers in the churches... stanting from Saint Benedetto in the VI th century... See also Horae Canonicae topics... Greetings to all, Nicola Messaggio originale Da: dhar...@o2.pl Data: 10/04/2013 15.31 A: sundial@uni-koeln.de Ogg: Horas benedictinus An archeologist discovered a very old sundial on a church in a small village in south of Poland. It is a scratch dial with no gnomon nor any hour markings except for a few lines and a hole in the middle. As good as I could I tried to describe this kind of dials giving other examples found in this area. He seemed to be satisfied however he asked if the dial could be related to HORAS BENEDICTINUS. This terms is new to me. Could someone help me understand this, please? What does it refer to? -- Best regards Darek Oczki 52N 21E Warsaw, Poland GNOMONIKA.pl Sundials in Poland http://gnomonika.pl --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Horas benedictinus
Darek, I think that the Latin is wrong. Maybe he would say something like Horae Benedicti or horae benedictinae, that is the hour from St Benedict. As Sara and Nicola and Fabio and other has written I think that your friend meant the ancient canonical hours dressed on the seasonal hours of Greco-Roman origin. Nevertheless I want point your attention to not confuse the temporal o seasonal hours with the canonical hours or with the benedictine hours. First: the canonical hours were movable times for preyer and not fix as the common temporal hours. I mean for example, Terce could be recited at a different time from tird hour of the day. Second: we can write benedictine hours only when they are really the canonical times recorded in the Rule of St Benedict. As far as I know medieval sundials with real benedictine hour are very few and I recorded in my book Tempus et Regula volume 1, part 5, chap. 5.1. There are many medieval sundial with indication of the moved time for canonical hours but not all are dressed on the st. Benedict Rule. My opinion is that if you are unsure, you should describe them as canonical hours and not Benedict's hours. Mario - Original Message - From: nicolasever...@libero.it To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Cc: dhar...@o2.pl Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 3:45 PM Subject: R: Horas benedictinus Hi Darek, the Horas Benedictinus, are related to the the canonical hours used by benedictine monks for the religious office in his churches: Hora Prima, Hora Secunda, Hora Tertia, Hora Sexta... The ancient roman temporary hours was adapted by benetictine monks for his prayers in the churches... stanting from Saint Benedetto in the VI th century... See also Horae Canonicae topics... Greetings to all, Nicola Messaggio originale Da: dhar...@o2.pl Data: 10/04/2013 15.31 A: sundial@uni-koeln.de Ogg: Horas benedictinus An archeologist discovered a very old sundial on a church in a small village in south of Poland. It is a scratch dial with no gnomon nor any hour markings except for a few lines and a hole in the middle. As good as I could I tried to describe this kind of dials giving other examples found in this area. He seemed to be satisfied however he asked if the dial could be related to HORAS BENEDICTINUS. This terms is new to me. Could someone help me understand this, please? What does it refer to? -- Best regards Darek Oczki 52N 21E Warsaw, Poland GNOMONIKA.pl Sundials in Poland http://gnomonika.pl --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Horas benedictinus
Here is a quotation from the Rule of St Benedict. CHAPTER XVI, How the Work of God Is to Be Performed during the Day As the Prophet saith: Seven times a day I have given praise to Thee (Psalms 119:164), this sacred sevenfold number will be fulfilled by us in this wise if we perform the duties of our service at the time of Lauds, Prime, Tierce, Sext, None, Vespers, and Complin; These times were based on the position of the sun and shadow lengths: dawn, sunrise, mid-morning, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and nightfall. Moslem prayer times used the same time system but generally dropped the sunrise and mid-morning prayers. Regards, Roger Bailey -- From: Darek Oczki dhar...@o2.pl Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:31 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Horas benedictinus An archeologist discovered a very old sundial on a church in a small village in south of Poland. It is a scratch dial with no gnomon nor any hour markings except for a few lines and a hole in the middle. As good as I could I tried to describe this kind of dials giving other examples found in this area. He seemed to be satisfied however he asked if the dial could be related to HORAS BENEDICTINUS. This terms is new to me. Could someone help me understand this, please? What does it refer to? -- Best regards Darek Oczki 52N 21E Warsaw, Poland GNOMONIKA.pl Sundials in Poland http://gnomonika.pl --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6235 - Release Date: 04/09/13 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6236 - Release Date: 04/10/13 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Horas benedictinus
These times were based on the position of the sun and shadow lengths: dawn, sunrise, mid-morning, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and nightfall. Moslem prayer times used the same time system but generally dropped the sunrise and mid-morning prayers. If we talking on the Rule of St. Benedict, this is not correct Roger. Ch. 16th gives only general notices about the Opus Dei (the Work of God or the Divine Office). The Rule gives times along the year and it is very clear about the moments for Prayers. Chapters to be read are the 41th, the 42d and the 48th. But This is only for the Benedict's Rule. Other Rules presents different times. Mario --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South?
Dear List Members (and experts!), I am a new member to this Mailing List - a school-teacher who can see the several curriculum benefits, of using sundials in (mainly Primary) schools. One of my pupils recently asked me a question, which seemed simple - but after thinking about it, now I am not so sure it has an obvious answer! Basically, is geographic East/West always at exact 'right-angles' to the direction of North/South - or is this affected by Latitude of location? On magnetic compasses, plus most maps (depending on the projection used), East/West is certainly at 90 degrees to North/South - but at (say) the North and South Poles there is no East or West direction at all, or are those locations just 'special cases' (being the exception to the rule)? That is what made me wonder, if East/West might depend on the Latitude. To keep things simple, I am only thinking about horizontal surfaces. I shall look forward to your replies, explaining whether East/West is always at 'right-angles' to North/South (or not, as the case may be). Thanks, Bev Stimpson. -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South?
On Wed, April 10, 2013 2:41 pm, Beverly Stimpson wrote: Dear List Members (and experts!), I am a new member to this Mailing List - a school-teacher who can see the several curriculum benefits, of using sundials in (mainly Primary) schools. One of my pupils recently asked me a question, which seemed simple - but after thinking about it, now I am not so sure it has an obvious answer! Basically, is geographic East/West always at exact 'right-angles' to the direction of North/South - or is this affected by Latitude of location? On magnetic compasses, plus most maps (depending on the projection used), East/West is certainly at 90 degrees to North/South - but at (say) the North and South Poles there is no East or West direction at all, or are those locations just 'special cases' (being the exception to the rule)? That is what made me wonder, if East/West might depend on the Latitude. To keep things simple, I am only thinking about horizontal surfaces. How big is your horizontal surface? On a small enough scale, they always are. Granted, you might have to get pretty small the closer you get to the poles. As you zoom out, the distortion becomes more apparent, and at the poles east and west become meaningless. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South?
Yes, at the point of intersection they are, but don't forget though that lat and long are great circles, not straight lines. Of course, there is no east or west at the poles. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South?
Reminds me of someone a year or so ago who developed a method of determining the east of Mecca for prayer purposes regardless of how far north or south the location of the person is. In this case, east varies quite a bit. Another slightly off topic question your students may want to consider: if the earth rotates west to east, one would think there is some friction between the earth and the air causing the air to turn at a slower rate. This suggests winds should be out of the east. However, prevailing winds are often out of the west. Does this make sense? From: Beverly Stimpson beverly.stimp...@gmail.com To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 5:41 PM Subject: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South? Dear List Members (and experts!), I am a new member to this Mailing List - a school-teacher who can see the several curriculum benefits, of using sundials in (mainly Primary) schools. One of my pupils recently asked me a question, which seemed simple - but after thinking about it, now I am not so sure it has an obvious answer! Basically, is geographic East/West always at exact 'right-angles' to the direction of North/South - or is this affected by Latitude of location? On magnetic compasses, plus most maps (depending on the projection used), East/West is certainly at 90 degrees to North/South - but at (say) the North and South Poles there is no East or West direction at all, or are those locations just 'special cases' (being the exception to the rule)? That is what made me wonder, if East/West might depend on the Latitude. To keep things simple, I am only thinking about horizontal surfaces. I shall look forward to your replies, explaining whether East/West is always at 'right-angles' to North/South (or not, as the case may be). Thanks, Bev Stimpson. -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South?
While longitude lines are great circles, latitude lines are small circles. David Patte wrote: Yes, at the point of intersection they are, but don't forget though that lat and long are great circles, not straight lines. Of course, there is no east or west at the poles. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South?
True - correction accepted, except at the equator :) I wonder if the poles have infinitely small latitude 'circles' ;) On 2013-04-10 22:02, kool...@dickkoolish.com wrote: While longitude lines are great circles, latitude lines are small circles. David Patte wrote: Yes, at the point of intersection they are, but don't forget though that lat and long are great circles, not straight lines. Of course, there is no east or west at the poles. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South?
This would be the starting azimuth of the great circle route from your location to Mecca. Here's a web page that does this: http://www.qiblalocator.com/ Douglas Vogt wrote: Reminds me of someone a year or so ago who developed a method of determining the east of Mecca for prayer purposes regardless of how far north or south the location of the person is. In this case, east varies quite a bit. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South? [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]
Hi Douglas, I realise your question about the wind was a for discussion type question, but it seems to imply a fallacy. The atmosphere and the earth are part of the same system and rotate together, so if everything was static there would be no friction between the atmosphere and the surface of the Earth. However the atmosphere is a fluid and there is unequal heating between the equator and the poles. The unequal heating causes air density and pressure differences, and the atmosphere develops a circulation. Because the Earth is a rotating sphere the motion of these circulations are deflected to preserve angular momentum. The resulting pattern of atmospheric circulation becomes quite complicated. In the simple case of a non rotating Earth air would rise at the equator and descend at the poles, and at the surface of the Earth there would be a pole to equator ward return flow, that is a northerly wind in the northern hemisphere and a southerly in the southern. This would make a single cell of circulation equator to pole in both hemispheres. However as the Earth is rotating, rather than one circulation cell, we have three. The full hemisphere cell mentioned above reaches only to about 30° latitude and is called the Hadley cell. The rotation of the Earth affects the cell by deflecting the surface return flow to the west in both hemispheres. These are the NE trades of the northern hemisphere and the SE trades of the southern hemisphere. The other two circulation cells are the Ferrel and the Polar cell. The Ferrel Cell runs in the opposite sense to the direct thermally driven Hadley cell, so the surface winds run the opposite way as well, and are deflected in the opposite way. So in the northern hemisphere in the mid-latitudes the average/predominant wind would be a SW wind. However the Ferrel circulation is much more complicated than this simple picture suggests, and there are flows both north and south, though both are generally from the west. Cheers Hank From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Douglas Vogt Sent: Thursday, 11 April 2013 10:57 To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South? Reminds me of someone a year or so ago who developed a method of determining the east of Mecca for prayer purposes regardless of how far north or south the location of the person is. In this case, east varies quite a bit. Another slightly off topic question your students may want to consider: if the earth rotates west to east, one would think there is some friction between the earth and the air causing the air to turn at a slower rate. This suggests winds should be out of the east. However, prevailing winds are often out of the west. Does this make sense? From: Beverly Stimpson beverly.stimp...@gmail.com To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 5:41 PM Subject: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South? Dear List Members (and experts!), I am a new member to this Mailing List - a school-teacher who can see the several curriculum benefits, of using sundials in (mainly Primary) schools. One of my pupils recently asked me a question, which seemed simple - but after thinking about it, now I am not so sure it has an obvious answer! Basically, is geographic East/West always at exact 'right-angles' to the direction of North/South - or is this affected by Latitude of location? On magnetic compasses, plus most maps (depending on the projection used), East/West is certainly at 90 degrees to North/South - but at (say) the North and South Poles there is no East or West direction at all, or are those locations just 'special cases' (being the exception to the rule)? That is what made me wonder, if East/West might depend on the Latitude. To keep things simple, I am only thinking about horizontal surfaces. I shall look forward to your replies, explaining whether East/West is always at 'right-angles' to North/South (or not, as the case may be). Thanks, Bev Stimpson. -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South?
And at the Equator, would the Longitude circle be the biggest circle of them all, because there is a bulge at the Equator. A bulge because the mass is forced out due the the Earth spinning? Anyone know the answer, I don't? I believe the moon also warps the Longitude circles because that is why there is a high tide in two places on the Earth at the same time. The moon's gravity pulls the Earth mass and that also makes a high tide on the opposite side of the Earth away from the moon. The high tide on the moon side of the Earth is caused by the moon's gravity pull on the water. Looks to me that the Latitude/Longitude circles are all warping and changing? Do I have this correct? Roderick Wall. -Original Message- From: David Patte ₯ Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 12:08 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South? True - correction accepted, except at the equator :) I wonder if the poles have infinitely small latitude 'circles' ;) On 2013-04-10 22:02, kool...@dickkoolish.com wrote: While longitude lines are great circles, latitude lines are small circles. David Patte wrote: Yes, at the point of intersection they are, but don't forget though that lat and long are great circles, not straight lines. Of course, there is no east or west at the poles. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6237 - Release Date: 04/10/13 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Is East/West always at exact 'right-angles', to North/South?
Yes the distance around the equator is larger than twice the distance from pole to pole. The flattening of the earth (oblateness) is minor though. I can find the exact number if you are interested. I write astronomy software that has to take this into effect. actually - latitude (contrary to popular misconception) is not measured as an angle from the centre of the earth, but from the angle from the celestial equator. This makes a difference because the earth is flattened as mentioned above. An interesing side effect is that the latitudes are not equally spaced on the globe, as one might expect from geometry. The distance of 5 degrees latitude depends on the latitude. I forget offhand if latitude circles are closer together at the poles or the equator. I have heard that the high tide is in fact because the earth is being pulled away from the water on the other side of the earth - a slight difference which explains why high tides are on opposite sides of the earth at the same time. On 2013-04-10 23:23, R Wall ml wrote: And at the Equator, would the Longitude circle be the biggest circle of them all, because there is a bulge at the Equator. A bulge because the mass is forced out due the the Earth spinning? Anyone know the answer, I don't? I believe the moon also warps the Longitude circles because that is why there is a high tide in two places on the Earth at the same time. The moon's gravity pulls the Earth mass and that also makes a high tide on the opposite side of the Earth away from the moon. The high tide on the moon side of the Earth is caused by the moon's gravity pull on the water. Looks to me that the Latitude/Longitude circles are all warping and changing? Do I have this correct? Roderick Wall. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Horas benedictinus
Thank you Mario, for this insight. I did not read the whole book, just the excerpts. These are useful, correct but incomplete information. Perhaps I should read the the 41th, the 42nd and the 48th. Or perhaps not. I do not live by Benedict's Rule, the Divine Office, Moslem Prayer times etc but by the natural circadian and solar rhythms. Regards, Roger Bailey -- From: Mario Arnaldi marna...@libero.it Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 10:37 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Horas benedictinus These times were based on the position of the sun and shadow lengths: dawn, sunrise, mid-morning, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and nightfall. Moslem prayer times used the same time system but generally dropped the sunrise and mid-morning prayers. If we talking on the Rule of St. Benedict, this is not correct Roger. Ch. 16th gives only general notices about the Opus Dei (the Work of God or the Divine Office). The Rule gives times along the year and it is very clear about the moments for Prayers. Chapters to be read are the 41th, the 42d and the 48th. But This is only for the Benedict's Rule. Other Rules presents different times. Mario --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6236 - Release Date: 04/10/13 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6237 - Release Date: 04/10/13 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
