Re: Southern Hemisphere

[Frank Evans]

And of course the time lines rotate in opposite directions north and 
south of the equator, as the sun travels east, south, west in the 
northern hemisphere and east, north, west in the southern hemisphere 
(except seasonally in the tropics).

Frank, 55N 1W.

On 16/11/2015 10:49, rodwall1234 wrote:


Hi Phil,

The shadow forming edge of the Gnomon must be parallel the the axis of 
the earth. To do that the shadow forming edge of the Gnomon is set to 
be the same as your latitude. The only difference in the southern 
hemisphere is the the tip of the Gnomon is facing South. While in the 
Northern hemisphere it faces to the North. Doing this keeps the shadow 
forming edge of the Gnomon parallel to the axis of the earth, whatever 
the location.


Roderick Wall,
Melbourne
Australia.

On Nov 16, 2015 9:37 AM, Phil Dorman  wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I joined this list because I have a specific question which I
can't find a definitive answer to.

I want to install a sundial at Perth WA Australia which is pretty
close to 32deg South latitude.

From what I can determine that means the Gnomon should be 32deg
above horizontal.

Or is that just for the Northern Hemisphere ??

As I move North in Australia the Latitude number gets Smaller

Eg Latitude of Brisbane QLD (further North) is 27.46deg

So presumably the Latitude at the Equator would be Zero !

Which would mean a sundial Gnomon at the Equator would be
Horizontal ie Flat on the Ground

Which of course would not work.

And at the South Pole it would be Vertical 90deg from Horizontal
and also would not work since there would be no ground for the
shadow to fall on.

So. Am I correct to put it at 32deg from Horizontal for Perth WA
or not ?

Phil Dorman /:~)>

MAATES_Transparent_for_email //

/Machinery Appreciation & Transport Engineering Society
/946 Wattagan Crk Rd
Watagan NSW 2325

0419 501285



---
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---
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Re: Southern Hemisphere

[Michael Ossipoff]

Oops, a typo:

I meant to say that, at the North Pole, no sundial will tell time when the
solar declination is south. But, of course, at the South Pole, it's when
the solar declination is *north*, that there won't be sunshine and sundials
won't tell time.

Michael Ossipoff

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Michael Ossipoff 
wrote:

> People who have already replied have said pretty much everything that I'd
> have said.
>
> As several people pointed out, yes the shadow-casting gnomon-edge should
> be tipped 32 degrees above the horizonal, at latitude 32 south.
>
> But, because it's south latitude, the up-pointing end of the gnomon should
> point southward, as was also pointed out.  ...and the hour-marking should
> be anti-clockwise instead of clockwise, because the sun goes around the sky
> anti-clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere.
>
> Of course the reason why your analog clocks and watches have clockwise
> dials is because the sun goes around clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere.
>
> Someone pointed out that an Equatorial Band Sundial works fine at or near
> the equator. A Horizontal Flat Dial also works at the equator. But it takes
> the form of a Polar Dial, and, because it's a Polar Dial, its range of
> timetelling hour is limited.
>
> A Horizontal Flat Dial would work fine at the North Pole or South Pole.
> There, it would be an Equatorial-Dial.  But it wouldn't tell time in winter
> (more accurately, any time when the declination is south).  ...but there
> wouldn't be sunlight there, when declination is south, anyway, and so no
> sundial would tell time then.
>
> Michael Ossipoff
> 26N, 80W
>
> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Phil Dorman  wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>>
>>
>> I joined this list because I have a specific question which I can’t find
>> a definitive answer to.
>>
>>
>>
>> I want to install a sundial at Perth WA Australia which is pretty close
>> to 32deg South latitude.
>>
>> From what I can determine that means the Gnomon should be 32deg above
>> horizontal.
>>
>> Or is that just for the Northern Hemisphere ??
>>
>>
>>
>> As I move North in Australia the Latitude number gets Smaller
>>
>> Eg Latitude of Brisbane QLD (further North) is 27.46deg
>>
>> So presumably the Latitude at the Equator would be Zero !
>>
>> Which would mean a sundial Gnomon at the Equator would be Horizontal ie
>> Flat on the Ground
>>
>> Which of course would not work.
>>
>> And at the South Pole it would be Vertical 90deg from Horizontal and also
>> would not work since there would be no ground for the shadow to fall on.
>>
>>
>>
>> So. Am I correct to put it at 32deg from Horizontal for Perth WA or not ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil Dorman /:~)>
>>
>> [image: MAATES_Transparent_for_email] 
>>
>>
>> *Machinery Appreciation & Transport Engineering Society*946 Wattagan Crk
>> Rd
>> Watagan NSW 2325
>>
>> 0419 501285
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>
>>
>>
>
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Southern Hemisphere

[Michael Ossipoff]

People who have already replied have said pretty much everything that I'd
have said.

As several people pointed out, yes the shadow-casting gnomon-edge should be
tipped 32 degrees above the horizonal, at latitude 32 south.

But, because it's south latitude, the up-pointing end of the gnomon should
point southward, as was also pointed out.  ...and the hour-marking should
be anti-clockwise instead of clockwise, because the sun goes around the sky
anti-clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere.

Of course the reason why your analog clocks and watches have clockwise
dials is because the sun goes around clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere.

Someone pointed out that an Equatorial Band Sundial works fine at or near
the equator. A Horizontal Flat Dial also works at the equator. But it takes
the form of a Polar Dial, and, because it's a Polar Dial, its range of
timetelling hour is limited.

A Horizontal Flat Dial would work fine at the North Pole or South Pole.
There, it would be an Equatorial-Dial.  But it wouldn't tell time in winter
(more accurately, any time when the declination is south).  ...but there
wouldn't be sunlight there, when declination is south, anyway, and so no
sundial would tell time then.

Michael Ossipoff
26N, 80W

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Phil Dorman  wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
>
>
> I joined this list because I have a specific question which I can’t find a
> definitive answer to.
>
>
>
> I want to install a sundial at Perth WA Australia which is pretty close to
> 32deg South latitude.
>
> From what I can determine that means the Gnomon should be 32deg above
> horizontal.
>
> Or is that just for the Northern Hemisphere ??
>
>
>
> As I move North in Australia the Latitude number gets Smaller
>
> Eg Latitude of Brisbane QLD (further North) is 27.46deg
>
> So presumably the Latitude at the Equator would be Zero !
>
> Which would mean a sundial Gnomon at the Equator would be Horizontal ie
> Flat on the Ground
>
> Which of course would not work.
>
> And at the South Pole it would be Vertical 90deg from Horizontal and also
> would not work since there would be no ground for the shadow to fall on.
>
>
>
> So. Am I correct to put it at 32deg from Horizontal for Perth WA or not ?
>
>
>
> Phil Dorman /:~)>
>
> [image: MAATES_Transparent_for_email] 
>
>
> *Machinery Appreciation & Transport Engineering Society*946 Wattagan Crk
> Rd
> Watagan NSW 2325
>
> 0419 501285
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
>
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Southern Hemisphere

[Willy Leenders]

Phil,

A sundial on the equator (whose style is horizontal) certainly works.
As an example, a photograph of a sundial in Singapore, near the equator.

Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be




Op 15-nov-2015, om 23:37 heeft Phil Dorman het volgende geschreven:

> Hi Everyone,
>  
> I joined this list because I have a specific question which I can’t find a 
> definitive answer to.
>  
> I want to install a sundial at Perth WA Australia which is pretty close to 
> 32deg South latitude.
> From what I can determine that means the Gnomon should be 32deg above 
> horizontal.
> Or is that just for the Northern Hemisphere ??
>  
> As I move North in Australia the Latitude number gets Smaller
> Eg Latitude of Brisbane QLD (further North) is 27.46deg
> So presumably the Latitude at the Equator would be Zero !
> Which would mean a sundial Gnomon at the Equator would be Horizontal ie Flat 
> on the Ground
> Which of course would not work.
> And at the South Pole it would be Vertical 90deg from Horizontal and also 
> would not work since there would be no ground for the shadow to fall on.
>  
> So. Am I correct to put it at 32deg from Horizontal for Perth WA or not ?
>  
> Phil Dorman /:~)>
> 
> Machinery Appreciation & Transport Engineering Society
> 946 Wattagan Crk Rd
> Watagan NSW 2325
> 0419 501285
>  
>  
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
> 

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Southern Hemisphere

[Willy Leenders]

Phil,

A sundial on the equator (whose style is horizontal) certainly works.
As an example, a photograph of a sundial in Singapore, near the equator.

Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be




Op 15-nov-2015, om 23:37 heeft Phil Dorman het volgende geschreven:

> Hi Everyone,
>  
> I joined this list because I have a specific question which I can’t find a 
> definitive answer to.
>  
> I want to install a sundial at Perth WA Australia which is pretty close to 
> 32deg South latitude.
> From what I can determine that means the Gnomon should be 32deg above 
> horizontal.
> Or is that just for the Northern Hemisphere ??
>  
> As I move North in Australia the Latitude number gets Smaller
> Eg Latitude of Brisbane QLD (further North) is 27.46deg
> So presumably the Latitude at the Equator would be Zero !
> Which would mean a sundial Gnomon at the Equator would be Horizontal ie Flat 
> on the Ground
> Which of course would not work.
> And at the South Pole it would be Vertical 90deg from Horizontal and also 
> would not work since there would be no ground for the shadow to fall on.
>  
> So. Am I correct to put it at 32deg from Horizontal for Perth WA or not ?
>  
> Phil Dorman /:~)>
> 
> Machinery Appreciation & Transport Engineering Society
> 946 Wattagan Crk Rd
> Watagan NSW 2325
> 0419 501285
>  
>  
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
> 

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Southern Hemisphere

[rodwall1234]

Hi Phil again,

The sundial normally needs to be designed for your latitude. That is the Gnomon 
angle to the face plate is the same as your latitude. But if it is designed for 
some other latitude. It will still work OK. So long as you make the shadow 
forming edge of the Gnomon parallel to the axis of the earth. And not make the 
face plate horizontal.

Another point is that the numbers go around the face clockwise in the Northern 
hemisphere. While in the southern hemisphere they are anticlockwise.

You may like to check your sundial. Because if it was imported into Australia, 
it may have been designed for the northern hemisphere.

Regards,

Roderick Wall.

On Nov 16, 2015 9:37 AM, Phil Dorman  wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
>  
>
> I joined this list because I have a specific question which I can’t find a 
> definitive answer to.
>
>  
>
> I want to install a sundial at Perth WA Australia which is pretty close to 
> 32deg South latitude.
>
> From what I can determine that means the Gnomon should be 32deg above 
> horizontal.
>
> Or is that just for the Northern Hemisphere ??
>
>  
>
> As I move North in Australia the Latitude number gets Smaller
>
> Eg Latitude of Brisbane QLD (further North) is 27.46deg
>
> So presumably the Latitude at the Equator would be Zero !
>
> Which would mean a sundial Gnomon at the Equator would be Horizontal ie Flat 
> on the Ground
>
> Which of course would not work.
>
> And at the South Pole it would be Vertical 90deg from Horizontal and also 
> would not work since there would be no ground for the shadow to fall on.
>
>  
>
> So. Am I correct to put it at 32deg from Horizontal for Perth WA or not ?
>
>  
>
> Phil Dorman /:~)>
>
> Machinery Appreciation & Transport Engineering Society
> 946 Wattagan Crk Rd
> Watagan NSW 2325
>
> 0419 501285
>
>  
>
>  ---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Southern Hemisphere

[rodwall1234]

Hi Phil,

The shadow forming edge of the Gnomon must be parallel the the axis of the 
earth. To do that the shadow forming edge of the Gnomon is set to be the same 
as your latitude. The only difference in the southern hemisphere is the the tip 
of the Gnomon is facing South. While in the Northern hemisphere it faces to the 
North. Doing this keeps the shadow forming edge of the Gnomon parallel to the 
axis of the earth, whatever the location.

Roderick Wall, 
Melbourne
Australia.

On Nov 16, 2015 9:37 AM, Phil Dorman  wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
>  
>
> I joined this list because I have a specific question which I can’t find a 
> definitive answer to.
>
>  
>
> I want to install a sundial at Perth WA Australia which is pretty close to 
> 32deg South latitude.
>
> From what I can determine that means the Gnomon should be 32deg above 
> horizontal.
>
> Or is that just for the Northern Hemisphere ??
>
>  
>
> As I move North in Australia the Latitude number gets Smaller
>
> Eg Latitude of Brisbane QLD (further North) is 27.46deg
>
> So presumably the Latitude at the Equator would be Zero !
>
> Which would mean a sundial Gnomon at the Equator would be Horizontal ie Flat 
> on the Ground
>
> Which of course would not work.
>
> And at the South Pole it would be Vertical 90deg from Horizontal and also 
> would not work since there would be no ground for the shadow to fall on.
>
>  
>
> So. Am I correct to put it at 32deg from Horizontal for Perth WA or not ?
>
>  
>
> Phil Dorman /:~)>
>
> Machinery Appreciation & Transport Engineering Society
> 946 Wattagan Crk Rd
> Watagan NSW 2325
>
> 0419 501285
>
>  
>
>  ---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Southern Hemisphere

[Frank Evans]

And of course the time lines rotate in opposite directions north and 
south of the equator, as the sun travels east, south, west in the 
northern hemisphere and east, north, west in the southern hemisphere 
(except seasonally in the tropics).

Frank, 55N 1W.
---
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RE: Southern Hemisphere

[Jack Aubert]

I suggest you look at the British Sundial Society piece created by Tony Moss
that shows how different types of sundials work at different places on the
earth's surface. 

 

http://sundialsoc.org.uk/discussions/how-do-sundials-work/

 

At the poles and the equator, sundials have to take different shapes than
the horizontal plate with inclined gnomon you are used to seeing.   In Perth
your gnomon should, indeed, have a 32 degree slope and be parallel to the
earth's axis.  But the hour line numbers are reversed from what they are in
the northern hemisphere.  

 

Jack Aubert

 

 

 

 

 

From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Phil Dorman
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 5:37 PM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Southern Hemisphere

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I joined this list because I have a specific question which I can't find a
definitive answer to.

 

I want to install a sundial at Perth WA Australia which is pretty close to
32deg South latitude.

>From what I can determine that means the Gnomon should be 32deg above
horizontal.

Or is that just for the Northern Hemisphere ??

 

As I move North in Australia the Latitude number gets Smaller

Eg Latitude of Brisbane QLD (further North) is 27.46deg 

So presumably the Latitude at the Equator would be Zero !

Which would mean a sundial Gnomon at the Equator would be Horizontal ie Flat
on the Ground

Which of course would not work.

And at the South Pole it would be Vertical 90deg from Horizontal and also
would not work since there would be no ground for the shadow to fall on.

 

So. Am I correct to put it at 32deg from Horizontal for Perth WA or not ?

 

Phil Dorman /:~)>

  

Machinery Appreciation & Transport Engineering Society
946 Wattagan Crk Rd
Watagan NSW 2325

0419 501285

 

 

---
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Re: Southern hemisphere heliochronometer?

[The Shaws]

Dave,

Pilkington and Gibbs certainly made a model of 
their heliochronometer for the southern hemisphere.
I have a photo of one if you would like to see 
it.
It's a Type 5, Serial number 598.

Mike Shaw

53.37 North03.02 West

www.wiz.to/sundials

RE: Southern hemisphere heliochronometer?

[Andrew James]

Bill Gottesman wrote
The answer is yes.  I think it was called Homan's Heliochronometer, and
was made in South Africa. ...

Althugh William Homan worked professionally in South Africa (and filed
patents from there) all the instruments by him that I've ever seen have
a Glasgow address. Bill, have you come across one made in South Africa?
I have seen one by him made (at 22 Renfrew Street Glasgow) for about 8
degrees North - probably Trincomalee. Not quite the Southern hemisphere,
but pretty close!

Andrew James


PRI Limited,
PRI House, Moorside Road
Winchester, Hampshire
SO23 7RX United Kingdom   
Tel:  +44 (0) 1962 840048
Fax: +44 (0) 1962 841046
www.pri.co.uk

 The Intelligent Metering Company 
This correspondence is confidential and is solely for the intended 
recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, 
disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message or any part of it. 
If you are not the intended recipient please delete this correspondence from 
your system and notify the sender immediately.
This message has been scanned for viruses by MailControl

-

Re: Southern hemisphere heliochronometer?

[BillGottesman]

I think I did see photos of one from South Africa in an e-mail about 2 years ago from someone who wanted to know more about a sundial they had. It looked alot like a cross between a Pilkington and Gibbs Sol Horometer and their better known Heliochronometer as I recall. I could kick myself in that I seem to have deleted the photos they sent me.

-Bill

In a message dated 11/15/2005 4:15:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
Althugh William Homan worked professionally in South Africa (and filed
patents from there) all the instruments by him that I've ever seen have
a Glasgow address. Bill, have you come across one made in South Africa?

Re: Southern hemisphere heliochronometer?

[BillGottesman]

The answer is yes. I think it was called Homan's Heliochronometer, and was made in South Aftrica. Google was not that helpful.

-Bill Gottesman

In a message dated 11/14/2005 9:00:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
Hi all:

 I have a question for list members. Does anyone know if a Southern
hemisphere heliochronometer has ever been produced? I would think one must
have been, but can find no reference to any on the net.
 Perhaps the Pilkington could be made to operate below the equator?

Re: Southern hemisphere heliochronometer?

[Sunny Dial \[Simon\]]

Yes, there was a batch of them made for one of the
African expeditions in the last war, I believe, but
that fizzled out and they were not used. Folkard and
Ward of Sundials Australia have one. They were
numbered. I am on the road so I dont have access to my
resources, otherwise I would add more details.

Simon

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The answer is yes.  I think it was called Homan's
 Heliochronometer, and was 
 made in South Aftrica.  Google was not that helpful.
 
 -Bill Gottesman
 
 In a message dated 11/14/2005 9:00:23 PM Eastern
 Standard Time, 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
  Hi all:
  
I have a question for list members.  Does anyone
 know if a Southern
  hemisphere heliochronometer has ever been
 produced?  I would think one must
  have been, but can find no reference to any on the
 net.
Perhaps the Pilkington could be made to operate
 below the equator?
 

-

Re: Southern hemisphere horizontal dial

[Mike Cowham]

The mentioning of the southern hemisphere horizontal dial and especially of 
the 
spanish text on it caught my attention and interest since I live in South 
America (Chile).
Where can I find details (website) to the auction, the sundial, etc.?

Dear Daniel,
I have tried below to read the EoT table etc. on the Southern
Hemisphere dial for you.  The results are shown below, but due to the
poor resolution of the photograph in the catalogue I may have copied a
few erroneously.  Anyway, here goes.  I have used the == signs to
denote a decorative line that travels through the tables, roughly as
shown, but it does curl nicely, especially at the ends.  It seems a
great way of denoting 'dial faster' or 'dial slower'.  Note that the
last 4 months are strictly in one line on the dial, but due to the
limitations of page width I have had to split it in two.  The / denotes
a solid vertical line across that part of the table.  At the point where
the === line changes polarity there is also a 0 inserted, but it is
difficult to show here.


  JAN.   /   FEBR./  MAERZ
DIAS   2. 7. 11. 17. 28. / 2. 20. 27. / 4. 12. 19. 20. 29.
MTR?   4  6  8   10  13  / 14 14  16  / 12 10  8   8   5
   ==//==

 APRIL / MAI/ JUNI
 1. 8. 12. 13. 20. 25. / 2. 15. 28. / 4. 10. 11. 20. 24. 29.
 4  2   1  //=1   2   3
 ===1   2  / 3   4   5  / 2   1  ===

   JULI /AUGUST
4. 10. 19.  /  4. 12. 17. 22. 25. 28.
4   5   6   /  6   5   4   2   2   1
/

  SEPT./  OKTB.
5. 11. 16. 22. 28. / 1. 7. 11. 20. 27. /
===/===/
1   3   5   7   9  / 10 12 13  15  ??  /

 /  NOVE.  /   DEZB.
 / 11. 22. 29. / 1. 11. 17. 25. 27. 30.
 /=/==   1   3
 / 16  14  12  / 11  7   4   ==


FAST +
  ==
SLOW -

Around the compass is the following:-

  HEMISHÉRIO  S  SUL

the central S is for the S point of the compass.

It is difficult to estimate a particular latitude from the view
shown but I can tell you that the horizontal dial plate runs from about
04:30am to 07:30 pm, so if it is for South America it must be somewhere
fairly south.

If you would like a JPEG of the dial, please let me know (off
the list).
Regards,
Mike Cowham.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cambridge, UK.