Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-15 Thread evolution
Quoting Toad [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Okay, you'll never get acceptable performance. Tough.

Yeah!  Get a proper operating system use schedule.

-todd

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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-13 Thread Toad
On Mon, Jul 12, 2004 at 09:31:23PM -0500, David Masover wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 
 
 Toad wrote:
 | On Sun, Jul 11, 2004 at 10:12:19PM -0500, David Masover wrote:
 |
 | Strange. It didn't produce actual error messages? Usually the node
 | responds in a reasonable time nowadays... of course if your browser is
 | set to only use 2 connections it might take a while...
 
 My browser is set to a bit more, but it still takes at least a few
 minutes to get an error.  I think the error is usually either data not
 found or (more likely) key not found.  These are from the default
 bookmarks -- things like FIND.  Expect fewer 'I thinks' in my complaints
 when I actually have a node running again.
 
 || How much RAM does it have? We have had reports of reasonable performance
 |
 |256 megs, but it's also running a lot of stuff --
 |apache,squid,qmail,djbdns,dhcpd,samba,sshd,bincimap,stunnel
 |
 |Admittedly, there's not a lot of load on it, and a lot of that could be
 |swapped.  But I'm running Linux 2.6, and Top shows 99% CPU in userland,
 |by Freenet -- not in IO-Wait, where it would be if RAM was an issue.
 |
 | How long after startup? I'd expect a CPU spike for the first hour or
 | two... it should go away after that... but is this on a 200MHz system?
 
 It is a 200 mhz system, but I usually don't leave Freenet running for
 very long.  Like, I'll run it for an hour in the evening while I try to
 get content (and browse other sites while I'm bored of waiting), and
 then I'll shut it down for the night so my brother can game (he wakes up
 earlier than me).

Okay, you'll never get acceptable performance. Tough. Not much we can do
about it. Well, maybe it'll improve with some future changes...
 
 | That's not been everyone else's experience :). Seriously, it's not a
 | matter of local node optimisation. It's a matter of optimising THE
 | NETWORK. That means getting routing working.
 
 Ah, I see.  Still, they are sort of co-dependent.  If a node has a
 massive spike in CPU usage for the first hour, it hurts the network.  If
 the network is slow, it doesn't matter much how fast the local node is.
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.


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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-12 Thread Jay Oliveri
On Sunday 11 July 2004 10:58 pm, David Masover wrote:
 | not sure my archives even go back that far, but the basis for
 | choosing Java should be obvious; platform independence and a
 | rich API that comes standard with the language.

 As a purely academic argument, Parrot and .NET both do those things now,
 and an API doesn't seem like it'd help that much with Freenet.  It's not
 the interface that's broken.

So in 1999 what should have been chosen?  Neither Parrot nor .NET were even 
around.  Parrot itself is another virtual machine, being used for Perl6.  
And .NET is currently Microsoft specific, the GNU implementation Mono still 
far enough behind to be considered a stable platform on Unix, or even 
Windows itself.

-- 
Jay Oliveri
GnuPG ID: 0x5AA5DD54
FCPTools Maintainer
www.sf.net/users/joliveri
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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-12 Thread Toad
On Sun, Jul 11, 2004 at 03:11:46AM -0700, Tracy R Reed wrote:
 On Sat, Jul 10, 2004 at 01:40:33PM -0400, Paul spake thusly:
  Not nessessarly. Freenet requires a lot of horsepower because of all
  the crypto required for even simple connections.
 
 Which is why we need to use native BigInt and FEC encoders to get
 something approaching reasonable performance. Fast as C++ my patootie.

It depends what you're doing. Even the Java zealots admit this.
Personally I see no reason why GCJ-compiled code (using GMP for
BigInteger) shouldn't be reasonably fast. Of course Sun's BigInteger
support is slow, they don't open source the code so they can't use
libgmp!
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.


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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-11 Thread David Masover
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Jay Oliveri wrote:
[...]
| days.  Did you leave it running while properly opening up the port it
uses
| for incoming connections in your firewall (if needed)?
Yes.  It's on the firewall machine, which really only does NAT anyway.
| I have an 2.5G Athlon XP w/ 1G of RAM and I don't notice that it's
running.
| It tends to play nice on my system regardless of my success in getting
any
| data out of it.
I'm talking about bandwidth, and it runs on said firewall machine -- a
200 mhz emachine.
| not sure my archives even go back that far, but the basis for choosing
Java
| should be obvious; platform independence and a rich API that comes
standard
| with the language.
As a purely academic argument, Parrot and .NET both do those things now,
and an API doesn't seem like it'd help that much with Freenet.  It's not
the interface that's broken.
| You don't have much experience with Java then.  Freenet is atypical of a
I'm glad I don't have much experience with Java.  I'll say no more.
| All this aside, when routing doesn't work in Freenet it can't be
blamed on
I like to blame Java, but you're right.
| helping matters much.  It's hoped this will change when one of the Free
| Software implementations of Java (gcj, Kaffe) becomes more stable wrt
| Freenet.
Good luck (and I don't mean that sarcastically).  I've never gotten
Kaffe to run a Hello World program.
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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-11 Thread David Masover
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Toad wrote:
| On stable? How many live connections? Do you get RNFs? DNFs?
I think stable was actually better last I checked than unstable.  Don't
know RNF or DNF from Dionsaur.  5-10 connections, 2 or 3 loaded before
the browser timed out (guess).
| How much RAM does it have? We have had reports of reasonable performance
256 megs, but it's also running a lot of stuff --
apache,squid,qmail,djbdns,dhcpd,samba,sshd,bincimap,stunnel
Admittedly, there's not a lot of load on it, and a lot of that could be
swapped.  But I'm running Linux 2.6, and Top shows 99% CPU in userland,
by Freenet -- not in IO-Wait, where it would be if RAM was an issue.
| on that class of hardware. OTOH, it's not a big priority at the moment.
What's the bigger priority right now?  Because everything always seemed
to just work for me with Freenet -- it would just do it excruciatingly
slow.
| I don't think Freenet's bandwidth limiting is unobtrusive enough for
| gaming. Having said that, a gamer will tell you that ANYTHING else
| running on the connection will increase his ping. Even if it doesn't! :)
I'm a gamer, and I run web and email on this.  My bro notices when I run
freenet.
| those will be rectified when GCJ works. If we had used C++, we'd have
| spent a year arguing over whether to include a garbage collector. If
| we had used Ocaml, we'd have had even fewer coders than we have now.
If you'd used Perl?  (Ok, that's not fair, and it's moot anyway.)
| I've seen all of the above. Get hold of a copy of Eclipse compiled under
| GCJ sometime...
Will do!  Sometime...
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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-11 Thread Tracy R Reed
On Sat, Jul 10, 2004 at 01:40:33PM -0400, Paul spake thusly:
 Not nessessarly. Freenet requires a lot of horsepower because of all
 the crypto required for even simple connections.

Which is why we need to use native BigInt and FEC encoders to get
something approaching reasonable performance. Fast as C++ my patootie.

-- 
Tracy Reed The attachment is a digital signature.
http://copilotconsulting.com   More info: http://copilotconsulting.com/sig


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[freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-10 Thread David Masover
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What's the health of Freenet as a whole right now?  I'm getting lots of
pages taking forever to load (or never loading), and I think it's still
using 100% CPU on my 200 mhz router on 768k (up and down) DSL, even
though the browser is on another machine...
I was planning to make a permanent node, but I don't run it much
anymore, because my brother games (so he needs high bandwidth and low
latency), and Freenet is still the most costly service I run on that
thing (in terms of CPU, bandwidth, etc.)
I know it's been mentioned before, but I'll state for the record that I
think Java was a bad choice.  Rather than start a new flame war, I'd
like to go read up on why it was chosen (any archives I should look at?).
For the record, I have never, ever seen a java program load quickly, run
even tolerably fast for anything beyond the most basic things, and I've
never seen an open source implementation of Java work firsthand.  I
don't like the syntax, but that's a personal issue -- I'd love to be
proven wrong on this.
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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-10 Thread Paul
Not nessessarly. Freenet requires a lot of horsepower because of all
the crypto required for even simple connections.

a href=http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45250;Java vs C++/a


Java vs C++ Shootout Revisited
June 15, 2004

Summary
I was sick of hearing people say Java was slow, says Keith Lea,
so I took the benchmark code for C++ and Java from the now outdated
Great Computer Language Shootout (Fall 2001) and ran the tests
myself. Lea's results three years on? Java, he finds, is
significantly faster than optimized C++ in many cases.

img src=http://www.kano.net/javabench/graph;




On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:15:50 -0500, David Masover [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 What's the health of Freenet as a whole right now?  I'm getting lots of
 pages taking forever to load (or never loading), and I think it's still
 using 100% CPU on my 200 mhz router on 768k (up and down) DSL, even
 though the browser is on another machine...
 
 I was planning to make a permanent node, but I don't run it much
 anymore, because my brother games (so he needs high bandwidth and low
 latency), and Freenet is still the most costly service I run on that
 thing (in terms of CPU, bandwidth, etc.)
 
 I know it's been mentioned before, but I'll state for the record that I
 think Java was a bad choice.  Rather than start a new flame war, I'd
 like to go read up on why it was chosen (any archives I should look at?).
 
 For the record, I have never, ever seen a java program load quickly, run
 even tolerably fast for anything beyond the most basic things, and I've
 never seen an open source implementation of Java work firsthand.  I
 don't like the syntax, but that's a personal issue -- I'd love to be
 proven wrong on this.
 
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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-10 Thread Jay Oliveri
On Friday 09 July 2004 12:15 am, David Masover wrote:
 What's the health of Freenet as a whole right now?  I'm getting lots of
 pages taking forever to load (or never loading), and I think it's still
 using 100% CPU on my 200 mhz router on 768k (up and down) DSL, even
 though the browser is on another machine...

My node isn't running too well either, even after leaving it on for a few 
days.  Did you leave it running while properly opening up the port it uses 
for incoming connections in your firewall (if needed)?

 I was planning to make a permanent node, but I don't run it much
 anymore, because my brother games (so he needs high bandwidth and low
 latency), and Freenet is still the most costly service I run on that
 thing (in terms of CPU, bandwidth, etc.)

I have an 2.5G Athlon XP w/ 1G of RAM and I don't notice that it's running.  
It tends to play nice on my system regardless of my success in getting any 
data out of it.

 I know it's been mentioned before, but I'll state for the record that I
 think Java was a bad choice.  Rather than start a new flame war, I'd
 like to go read up on why it was chosen (any archives I should look at?).

That's a good idea.  A discussion based on backing out of Java at this point 
is totally pointless and would set the project back another X years.  I'm 
not sure my archives even go back that far, but the basis for choosing Java 
should be obvious; platform independence and a rich API that comes standard 
with the language.

 For the record, I have never, ever seen a java program load quickly, run
 even tolerably fast for anything beyond the most basic things, and I've
 never seen an open source implementation of Java work firsthand.  I
 don't like the syntax, but that's a personal issue -- I'd love to be
 proven wrong on this.

You don't have much experience with Java then.  Freenet is atypical of a 
Java application IMO.  I would argue that Java has found a nice home in the 
Web Services market (JSP, Servlets, EJB), but Freenet attempts to be all 
things that Java isn't necessarily good at (for starters, NIO is something 
not necessary for most web apps).

All this aside, when routing doesn't work in Freenet it can't be blamed on 
the language it was implemented in.  Broken routing can easily be coded in 
C, Python, assembler or whatever language you desire.  On the other hand 
being tied to a proprietary language like Java under Sun's control isn't 
helping matters much.  It's hoped this will change when one of the Free 
Software implementations of Java (gcj, Kaffe) becomes more stable wrt 
Freenet.

-- 
Jay Oliveri
GnuPG ID: 0x5AA5DD54
FCPTools Maintainer
www.sf.net/users/joliveri
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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-10 Thread Nicholas Sturm

All this aside, when routing doesn't work in Freenet it can't be blamed on 
the language it was implemented in.  Broken routing can easily be coded in 
C, Python, assembler or whatever language you desire.  On the other hand 
being tied to a proprietary language like Java under Sun's control isn't 
helping matters much.  It's hoped this will change when one of the Free 
Software implementations of Java (gcj, Kaffe) becomes more stable wrt 
Freenet.

 

I lost the meaning in the last sentence.  What was intended by wrt?
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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-10 Thread Toad
On Thu, Jul 08, 2004 at 11:15:50PM -0500, David Masover wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 
 What's the health of Freenet as a whole right now?  

I'm not sure. It depends on various factors. For example, which branch
you are running.

 I'm getting lots of
 pages taking forever to load (or never loading),

On stable? How many live connections? Do you get RNFs? DNFs?

 and I think it's still
 using 100% CPU on my 200 mhz router on 768k (up and down) DSL, even
 though the browser is on another machine...

:(

How much RAM does it have? We have had reports of reasonable performance
on that class of hardware. OTOH, it's not a big priority at the moment.
First make it work. Then make it work fast.. Most machines running
Freenet are probably 5 times faster than the above hardware...
 
 I was planning to make a permanent node, but I don't run it much
 anymore, because my brother games (so he needs high bandwidth and low
 latency), and Freenet is still the most costly service I run on that
 thing (in terms of CPU, bandwidth, etc.)

I don't think Freenet's bandwidth limiting is unobtrusive enough for
gaming. Having said that, a gamer will tell you that ANYTHING else
running on the connection will increase his ping. Even if it doesn't! :)
 
 I know it's been mentioned before, but I'll state for the record that I
 think Java was a bad choice.  Rather than start a new flame war, I'd
 like to go read up on why it was chosen (any archives I should look at?).

Ian liked it. Ian was the original coder. Java is a reasonable
OO-procedural language which has a number of eccentricities. Most of
those will be rectified when GCJ works. If we had used C++, we'd have
spent a year arguing over whether to include a garbage collector. If 
we had used Ocaml, we'd have had even fewer coders than we have now. 
Etc etc.
 
 For the record, I have never, ever seen a java program load quickly, run
 even tolerably fast for anything beyond the most basic things, and I've
 never seen an open source implementation of Java work firsthand.  I
 don't like the syntax, but that's a personal issue -- I'd love to be
 proven wrong on this.

I've seen all of the above. Get hold of a copy of Eclipse compiled under
GCJ sometime...
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.


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Re: [freenet-support] Freenet Project health

2004-07-10 Thread Christopher Brian Jack


On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Nicholas Sturm wrote:

 helping matters much.  It's hoped this will change when one of the Free
 Software implementations of Java (gcj, Kaffe) becomes more stable wrt
 Freenet.
 
 I lost the meaning in the last sentence.  What was intended by wrt?

with-respect-to

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