Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
On Friday 21 August 2009 16:22:22 Evan Daniel wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Alex Pyattaevalex.pyatt...@gmail.com wrote: He has stated that the network does not allow P2P applications running Freenet as pure darknet will technically be F2F, now we can start arguing whether F2F is a subset of P2P or a distinctly different thing. But if we accept that F2F and P2P are different, then people who haven't enabled Opennet are actually not violating that particular network's guidelines. Actually, darknet peers inside LAN are not violating ToS, because the inside-network traffic is not an issue. The actual problem is that a bunch of p2p users seeding and leeching from internet can consume every possible bit of channel available on the ISP's connection. That's why they are illegal. The traffic for each user is virtually unlimited, but if you do the math, you will see that without p2p you just can not consume even 2 mbit/s channel, and we provide 10 mbit/s. Thus, when the user is downloading something big from time to time - it works just nice. But when he fills up at list 5 mbit/s with 24/7 p2p exchange the traffic utilization is much bigger than it should be. I have proposed to the managers that we allow p2p for extra charge (or with limited QoS), but they have decided that it will not work out (all that piracy stuff is still an issue). Online gamers are not always client-server. I have stated spring as a typical random-server udp-based game (ta-spring.com), the Company Of heroes also works similarily - host is a random node, and all nodes are interconnected. Indeed, 24x7 active connections can be suspicious, so I hope you will counter this problem so that I don't bother setting up filter. I suggest breaking every single connection that lasts for more than 1 hour, if it is not unique, and then reconnecting after random delay. PS: fuck bosses, I run freenet node myself=) Last I checked, p2p wasn't illegal in any place I know of :) This sounds to me like you really just need better QoS for your users, not to block P2P. It's relatively easy to allocate bandwidth such that everyone gets their fair share, and those that use it *less* get priority over the short term. That means that p2p users can use up any excess bandwidth, but if someone else is just trying to browse the web it will go quickly. Piracy is not the point of Freenet; please don't assume anyone running Freenet is a pirate. You should consult a lawyer about your liability for piracy -- I suspect, however, that you aren't liable until you are notified of a *specific* problem. Also, have you tried just asking your users to set reasonable bandwidth limits? All p2p apps I know of, including Freenet, provide bandwidth limiting controls. Perhaps you should simply inform your users of the situation and what you consider a reasonable bw limit for p2p apps. Or give them a quota and charge for usage beyond that. Or throttle them after it. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
On Friday 21 August 2009 16:04:28 Alex Pyattaev wrote: He has stated that the network does not allow P2P applications running Freenet as pure darknet will technically be F2F, now we can start arguing whether F2F is a subset of P2P or a distinctly different thing. But if we accept that F2F and P2P are different, then people who haven't enabled Opennet are actually not violating that particular network's guidelines. Actually, darknet peers inside LAN are not violating ToS, because the inside-network traffic is not an issue. The actual problem is that a bunch of p2p users seeding and leeching from internet can consume every possible bit of channel available on the ISP's connection. That's why they are illegal. The traffic for each user is virtually unlimited, but if you do the math, you will see that without p2p you just can not consume even 2 mbit/s channel, and we provide 10 mbit/s. Thus, when the user is downloading something big from time to time - it works just nice. But when he fills up at list 5 mbit/s with 24/7 p2p exchange the traffic utilization is much bigger than it should be. I have proposed to the managers that we allow p2p for extra charge (or with limited QoS), but they have decided that it will not work out (all that piracy stuff is still an issue). Online gamers are not always client-server. I have stated spring as a typical random-server udp-based game (ta-spring.com), the Company Of heroes also works similarily - host is a random node, and all nodes are interconnected. Ooh, that is interesting. Added to the stego wiki page. Indeed, 24x7 active connections can be suspicious, so I hope you will counter this problem so that I don't bother setting up filter. I suggest breaking every single connection that lasts for more than 1 hour, if it is not unique, and then reconnecting after random delay. Well, opennet has high enough churn that this isn't a problem. Darknet on the other hand is a problem: you have a fixed and probably small set of peers, Freenet needs to run 24x7 for good performance, sacrificing even more uptime/connectivity is not really viable at the moment. However in future it may be, we have some features planned that may help with this (e.g. long-term requests). PS: fuck bosses, I run freenet node myself=) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
Alex Pyattaev wrote: You know, I do think that freenet is a good idea. And in fact, until freenet users will consume too much traffic, i'm not going to ban them. Because i don't want to. In fact, right now 100.0% of major traffic consumers are using *other* P2P networks. Mostly torrents, some use mule DC, but they are much less pain - DC-like protocols never utilize 100% bandwidth due to long periods when noone is leeching from you. So the upload traffic is poorly utilized, and downloads are not so fast due to lack of seeders. So the major problem is torrent, which is extremely easy to detect and ban. And I like the idea. As of freenet, my interest is pure theory right now, since freenet users just don't bother be. If you like Freenet (cool that you do!) you could help the project: try to catch Freenet users on your network and report the results here, so developers would get valuable info. If you do catch someone, you could even (anonymously?) help him set up a more secure node, and then try to catch him again. The only problem that I can see here (and it may be kind of serious) would be: what if your bosses realize that you use resources, work hours, etc to catch Freenet users, and then you don't actually ban them? If you don't have a good excuse for that, may be better just forget the whole idea. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
The only problem that I can see here (and it may be kind of serious) would be: what if your bosses realize that you use resources, work hours, etc to catch Freenet users, and then you don't actually ban them? If you don't have a good excuse for that, may be better just forget the whole idea. Dude, don't worry. They are not that good=) and actually i like the idea. howeverm right now i have to finish the job on torrent and DC tracking. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
[freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
I'm a system administrator of a private home network, providing internet to subscribers via ethernet. The corporate policy prohibits the use of ANY p2p network by subscribers. The question is - is it possible to detect freenet nodes on my LAN? I could indeed use connection statistics, but this is not too useful. AFAIK, it is much harder to detect those who contact friends only, but what about others? I suppose the only real way is to have my own client and use it to get IP's to ban... However, the boss does not care about technical issues. Thanks for your help. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
I don't know about others, but I would not will to help you. 2009/8/21 Alex Pyattaev alex.pyatt...@gmail.com I'm a system administrator of a private home network, providing internet to subscribers via ethernet. The corporate policy prohibits the use of ANY p2p network by subscribers. The question is - is it possible to detect freenet nodes on my LAN? I could indeed use connection statistics, but this is not too useful. AFAIK, it is much harder to detect those who contact friends only, but what about others? I suppose the only real way is to have my own client and use it to get IP's to ban... However, the boss does not care about technical issues. Thanks for your help. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
Portscanning? I tried nmap on my node, but it can't identify the application. I don't know if other tools are able to. -ermanno 2009/8/21 Alex Pyattaev alex.pyatt...@gmail.com: I'm a system administrator of a private home network, providing internet to subscribers via ethernet. The corporate policy prohibits the use of ANY p2p network by subscribers. The question is - is it possible to detect freenet nodes on my LAN? I could indeed use connection statistics, but this is not too useful. AFAIK, it is much harder to detect those who contact friends only, but what about others? I suppose the only real way is to have my own client and use it to get IP's to ban... However, the boss does not care about technical issues. Thanks for your help. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
Hopefully the answer to Alex's question is: It can't be done. If he can detect freenet nodes on his network, you must assume that governments and the like can as well. I would rather we help Alex try (and hopefully fail) in detecting nodes on his private home network, than just ignore the fact that there are people out there (government, corporate or private) who will in fact try. And if we help Alex come up with a certain way of identifying nodes on his home network, hopefully Freenet can be improved, to fight this vulnerability. Cheers Søren On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 11:16 AM, bimbekbimbek...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know about others, but I would not will to help you. 2009/8/21 Alex Pyattaev alex.pyatt...@gmail.com I'm a system administrator of a private home network, providing internet to subscribers via ethernet. The corporate policy prohibits the use of ANY p2p network by subscribers. The question is - is it possible to detect freenet nodes on my LAN? I could indeed use connection statistics, but this is not too useful. AFAIK, it is much harder to detect those who contact friends only, but what about others? I suppose the only real way is to have my own client and use it to get IP's to ban... However, the boss does not care about technical issues. Thanks for your help. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
Ok people, I'll try to adopt my own freenode to track the users that try to connect to freenet. If I come up with solution, I'll indeed tell you. Hope I'll ban some nasty users before you make a patch, so that I can sleep well knowing that my bosses will never know about the freenet users in the LAN=) On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Søren Bredlund Caspersen soeren@gmail.com wrote: Hopefully the answer to Alex's question is: It can't be done. If he can detect freenet nodes on his network, you must assume that governments and the like can as well. I would rather we help Alex try (and hopefully fail) in detecting nodes on his private home network, than just ignore the fact that there are people out there (government, corporate or private) who will in fact try. And if we help Alex come up with a certain way of identifying nodes on his home network, hopefully Freenet can be improved, to fight this vulnerability. Cheers Søren On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 11:16 AM, bimbekbimbek...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know about others, but I would not will to help you. 2009/8/21 Alex Pyattaev alex.pyatt...@gmail.com I'm a system administrator of a private home network, providing internet to subscribers via ethernet. The corporate policy prohibits the use of ANY p2p network by subscribers. The question is - is it possible to detect freenet nodes on my LAN? I could indeed use connection statistics, but this is not too useful. AFAIK, it is much harder to detect those who contact friends only, but what about others? I suppose the only real way is to have my own client and use it to get IP's to ban... However, the boss does not care about technical issues. Thanks for your help. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
Victor, you basically repeat my idea (about the harvester), so i will think about implementation. Statistics method is not an option, almost the same stats are shown for online games (especially real-time) that utilize UDP. almost constant, mostly symmetrical(not always, e.g. spring produces asymmetrical bursty traffic). Alex. On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Victor Denisov vdeni...@redline.ru wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I'd suggest detecting Freenet nodes by their UDP traffic usage. No amount of VoIP or gaming activity will generate a near-constant UDP stream to ~20 external nodes. If your firewall/billing/traffic logging software provides for this, I think it'll be the simplest way. If you're proficient with Java, another way would be to create a simple opennet harvester (which constantly gets connections to new nodes, discovers more nodes, then blocks their IP addresses). With best regards, Victor Denisov. Alex Pyattaev wrote: Ok people, I'll try to adopt my own freenode to track the users that try to connect to freenet. If I come up with solution, I'll indeed tell you. Hope I'll ban some nasty users before you make a patch, so that I can sleep well knowing that my bosses will never know about the freenet users in the LAN=) On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Søren Bredlund Caspersen soeren@gmail.com mailto:soeren@gmail.com wrote: Hopefully the answer to Alex's question is: It can't be done. If he can detect freenet nodes on his network, you must assume that governments and the like can as well. I would rather we help Alex try (and hopefully fail) in detecting nodes on his private home network, than just ignore the fact that there are people out there (government, corporate or private) who will in fact try. And if we help Alex come up with a certain way of identifying nodes on his home network, hopefully Freenet can be improved, to fight this vulnerability. Cheers Søren On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 11:16 AM, bimbekbimbek...@gmail.com mailto:bimbek...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know about others, but I would not will to help you. 2009/8/21 Alex Pyattaev alex.pyatt...@gmail.com mailto:alex.pyatt...@gmail.com I'm a system administrator of a private home network, providing internet to subscribers via ethernet. The corporate policy prohibits the use of ANY p2p network by subscribers. The question is - is it possible to detect freenet nodes on my LAN? I could indeed use connection statistics, but this is not too useful. AFAIK, it is much harder to detect those who contact friends only, but what about others? I suppose the only real way is to have my own client and use it to get IP's to ban... However, the boss does not care about technical issues. Thanks for your help. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org mailto:Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org mailto:Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org mailto:Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFKjndNx7AVSvyjsUARAtT0AKCAAz0j/0oXPYvfsM5w3VWms6eR3gCeKPwP JZxBMV5E/FnO0lyUpvpf09U= =UQm7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Support mailing
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
Alex Pyattaev wrote: I'm a system administrator of a private home network, providing internet to subscribers via ethernet. The corporate policy prohibits the use of ANY p2p network by subscribers. The question is - is it possible to detect freenet nodes on my LAN? I could indeed use connection statistics, but this is not too useful. AFAIK, it is much harder to detect those who contact friends only, but what about others? I suppose the only real way is to have my own client and use it to get IP's to ban... However, the boss does not care about technical issues. Thanks for your help. If you do detect any nodes, pleaser tell us because that would mean that Freenet must be fixed. thanks for your help. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
Alex Pyattaev wrote: Ok people, I'll try to adopt my own freenode to track the users that try to connect to freenet. If I come up with solution, I'll indeed tell you. Hope I'll ban some nasty users before you make a patch, so that I can sleep well knowing that my bosses will never know about the freenet users in the LAN=) What you're doing here is catching Opennet users. Pure Darknet users wont be that easy to catch. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Victor, you basically repeat my idea (about the harvester), so i will think about implementation. Statistics method is not an option, almost the same stats are shown for online games (especially real-time) that utilize UDP. almost constant, mostly symmetrical(not always, e.g. spring produces asymmetrical bursty traffic). I don't really think so. First, most online games are client-server, so at each particular moment in time, it's not very likely that a particular IP will be conversing with 15+ different game servers. Next, Freenet nodes have random UDP ports, which is also not very typical for online games. Regards, Victor Denisov. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFKjpYRx7AVSvyjsUARArRzAJ9s9s7c6QpB3yXX4laPHxFGa9ITUACg8B0P FC2PF6wN2RcpJNxnOP7qh0M= =pivm -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
Luke771 wrote: Alex Pyattaev wrote: Ok people, I'll try to adopt my own freenode to track the users that try to connect to freenet. If I come up with solution, I'll indeed tell you. Hope I'll ban some nasty users before you make a patch, so that I can sleep well knowing that my bosses will never know about the freenet users in the LAN=) What you're doing here is catching Opennet users. Pure Darknet users wont be that easy to catch. He has stated that the network does not allow P2P applications running Freenet as pure darknet will technically be F2F, now we can start arguing whether F2F is a subset of P2P or a distinctly different thing. But if we accept that F2F and P2P are different, then people who haven't enabled Opennet are actually not violating that particular network's guidelines. - Volodya -- http://freedom.libsyn.com/ Echo of Freedom, Radical Podcast http://www.freedomporn.org/Freedom Porn, anarchist and activist smut None of us are free until all of us are free.~ Mihail Bakunin ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:59 AM, VolodyA! V Anarhistvolo...@whengendarmesleeps.org wrote: Luke771 wrote: Alex Pyattaev wrote: Ok people, I'll try to adopt my own freenode to track the users that try to connect to freenet. If I come up with solution, I'll indeed tell you. Hope I'll ban some nasty users before you make a patch, so that I can sleep well knowing that my bosses will never know about the freenet users in the LAN=) What you're doing here is catching Opennet users. Pure Darknet users wont be that easy to catch. He has stated that the network does not allow P2P applications running Freenet as pure darknet will technically be F2F, now we can start arguing whether F2F is a subset of P2P or a distinctly different thing. But if we accept that F2F and P2P are different, then people who haven't enabled Opennet are actually not violating that particular network's guidelines. Except that it's really, really obvious that friends are a subset of peers. See definition of peers. In a computing context, peers is as distinct from client/server etc. This is a silly argument, and any sysadmin will (rightly) tell you you're an idiot if you try to make it. Evan Daniel ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
He has stated that the network does not allow P2P applications running Freenet as pure darknet will technically be F2F, now we can start arguing whether F2F is a subset of P2P or a distinctly different thing. But if we accept that F2F and P2P are different, then people who haven't enabled Opennet are actually not violating that particular network's guidelines. Actually, darknet peers inside LAN are not violating ToS, because the inside-network traffic is not an issue. The actual problem is that a bunch of p2p users seeding and leeching from internet can consume every possible bit of channel available on the ISP's connection. That's why they are illegal. The traffic for each user is virtually unlimited, but if you do the math, you will see that without p2p you just can not consume even 2 mbit/s channel, and we provide 10 mbit/s. Thus, when the user is downloading something big from time to time - it works just nice. But when he fills up at list 5 mbit/s with 24/7 p2p exchange the traffic utilization is much bigger than it should be. I have proposed to the managers that we allow p2p for extra charge (or with limited QoS), but they have decided that it will not work out (all that piracy stuff is still an issue). Online gamers are not always client-server. I have stated spring as a typical random-server udp-based game (ta-spring.com), the Company Of heroes also works similarily - host is a random node, and all nodes are interconnected. Indeed, 24x7 active connections can be suspicious, so I hope you will counter this problem so that I don't bother setting up filter. I suggest breaking every single connection that lasts for more than 1 hour, if it is not unique, and then reconnecting after random delay. PS: fuck bosses, I run freenet node myself=) ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Alex Pyattaevalex.pyatt...@gmail.com wrote: He has stated that the network does not allow P2P applications running Freenet as pure darknet will technically be F2F, now we can start arguing whether F2F is a subset of P2P or a distinctly different thing. But if we accept that F2F and P2P are different, then people who haven't enabled Opennet are actually not violating that particular network's guidelines. Actually, darknet peers inside LAN are not violating ToS, because the inside-network traffic is not an issue. The actual problem is that a bunch of p2p users seeding and leeching from internet can consume every possible bit of channel available on the ISP's connection. That's why they are illegal. The traffic for each user is virtually unlimited, but if you do the math, you will see that without p2p you just can not consume even 2 mbit/s channel, and we provide 10 mbit/s. Thus, when the user is downloading something big from time to time - it works just nice. But when he fills up at list 5 mbit/s with 24/7 p2p exchange the traffic utilization is much bigger than it should be. I have proposed to the managers that we allow p2p for extra charge (or with limited QoS), but they have decided that it will not work out (all that piracy stuff is still an issue). Online gamers are not always client-server. I have stated spring as a typical random-server udp-based game (ta-spring.com), the Company Of heroes also works similarily - host is a random node, and all nodes are interconnected. Indeed, 24x7 active connections can be suspicious, so I hope you will counter this problem so that I don't bother setting up filter. I suggest breaking every single connection that lasts for more than 1 hour, if it is not unique, and then reconnecting after random delay. PS: fuck bosses, I run freenet node myself=) Last I checked, p2p wasn't illegal in any place I know of :) This sounds to me like you really just need better QoS for your users, not to block P2P. It's relatively easy to allocate bandwidth such that everyone gets their fair share, and those that use it *less* get priority over the short term. That means that p2p users can use up any excess bandwidth, but if someone else is just trying to browse the web it will go quickly. Piracy is not the point of Freenet; please don't assume anyone running Freenet is a pirate. You should consult a lawyer about your liability for piracy -- I suspect, however, that you aren't liable until you are notified of a *specific* problem. Also, have you tried just asking your users to set reasonable bandwidth limits? All p2p apps I know of, including Freenet, provide bandwidth limiting controls. Perhaps you should simply inform your users of the situation and what you consider a reasonable bw limit for p2p apps. Evan Daniel ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
At 09:15 AM 8/21/2009, Evan Daniel wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Victor Denisovvdeni...@redline.ru wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Luke771 wrote: What you're doing here is catching Opennet users. Pure Darknet users wont be that easy to catch. No, they'll be extremely easy to catch, along with their friends' IP addresses. Detect local darknet nodes via generic traffic analysis (how many people skype or play online games for 20+ hours a day with constant 80+ KB/sec traffic?) - Check local port used for conversations - find local nodes' darknet port - detect its darknet peers. Trivial. On the other hand, moving just one hop further in the darknet chain requires cooperation with the remote ISP, which is something everyone considers to be relatively difficult to achieve. Right now, the best defense for darknet nodes is that this sort of analysis is computationally expensive on a large network. For a small lan, it probably isn't, making even darknet relatively easy to catch. Freenet (or whatever) users could just route all of their traffic through a proxy via securely-encrypted VPN, such as XeroBank with OpenVPN. Although you'd still know that they were hogging bandwidth, you wouldn't have a clue what they were doing with it. = Jim Cook jimc...@panix.com ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
Evan Daniel wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:59 AM, VolodyA! V Anarhistvolo...@whengendarmesleeps.org wrote: Luke771 wrote: Alex Pyattaev wrote: Ok people, I'll try to adopt my own freenode to track the users that try to connect to freenet. If I come up with solution, I'll indeed tell you. Hope I'll ban some nasty users before you make a patch, so that I can sleep well knowing that my bosses will never know about the freenet users in the LAN=) What you're doing here is catching Opennet users. Pure Darknet users wont be that easy to catch. He has stated that the network does not allow P2P applications running Freenet as pure darknet will technically be F2F, now we can start arguing whether F2F is a subset of P2P or a distinctly different thing. But if we accept that F2F and P2P are different, then people who haven't enabled Opennet are actually not violating that particular network's guidelines. Except that it's really, really obvious that friends are a subset of peers. See definition of peers. In a computing context, peers is as distinct from client/server etc. This is a silly argument, and any sysadmin will (rightly) tell you you're an idiot if you try to make it. Evan Daniel The issue with my university was that P2P applications do not let anybody control who connects to your computer. Each person has to be responsible for the connections being made to the machine. Clearly F2F network is *not* a subset of P2P under that light. So many users will (rightly) call you an idiot (since we were not discussing peers and friends, but P2P and F2F). - Volodya -- http://freedom.libsyn.com/ Echo of Freedom, Radical Podcast http://www.freedomporn.org/Freedom Porn, anarchist and activist smut None of us are free until all of us are free.~ Mihail Bakunin ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 04:57:15PM +0100, VolodyA! V Anarhist wrote: Evan Daniel wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:59 AM, VolodyA! V Anarhistvolo...@whengendarmesleeps.org wrote: Luke771 wrote: Alex Pyattaev wrote: Ok people, I'll try to adopt my own freenode to track the users that try to connect to freenet. If I come up with solution, I'll indeed tell you. Hope I'll ban some nasty users before you make a patch, so that I can sleep well knowing that my bosses will never know about the freenet users in the LAN=) What you're doing here is catching Opennet users. Pure Darknet users wont be that easy to catch. He has stated that the network does not allow P2P applications running Freenet as pure darknet will technically be F2F, now we can start arguing whether F2F is a subset of P2P or a distinctly different thing. But if we accept that F2F and P2P are different, then people who haven't enabled Opennet are actually not violating that particular network's guidelines. Except that it's really, really obvious that friends are a subset of peers. See definition of peers. In a computing context, peers is as distinct from client/server etc. This is a silly argument, and any sysadmin will (rightly) tell you you're an idiot if you try to make it. Evan Daniel The issue with my university was that P2P applications do not let anybody control who connects to your computer. Each person has to be responsible for the connections being made to the machine. Clearly F2F network is *not* a subset of P2P under that light. So many users will (rightly) call you an idiot (since we were not discussing peers and friends, but P2P and F2F). - Volodya I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you. You control who your node connect with, but you *don't* control what goes through your node. You can control your friends, you cannot control friends of your friends. So we might consider that, _in the case of Freenet_, F2F is P2P, it's just extremely more difficult to censor. pgpDEVz813ugV.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] How can a system administrator detect active freenodes?
You know, I do think that freenet is a good idea. And in fact, until freenet users will consume too much traffic, i'm not going to ban them. Because i don't want to. In fact, right now 100.0% of major traffic consumers are using *other* P2P networks. Mostly torrents, some use mule DC, but they are much less pain - DC-like protocols never utilize 100% bandwidth due to long periods when noone is leeching from you. So the upload traffic is poorly utilized, and downloads are not so fast due to lack of seeders. So the major problem is torrent, which is extremely easy to detect and ban. And I like the idea. As of freenet, my interest is pure theory right now, since freenet users just don't bother be. On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Artefact2 artefa...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 04:57:15PM +0100, VolodyA! V Anarhist wrote: Evan Daniel wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 9:59 AM, VolodyA! V Anarhistvolo...@whengendarmesleeps.org wrote: Luke771 wrote: Alex Pyattaev wrote: Ok people, I'll try to adopt my own freenode to track the users that try to connect to freenet. If I come up with solution, I'll indeed tell you. Hope I'll ban some nasty users before you make a patch, so that I can sleep well knowing that my bosses will never know about the freenet users in the LAN=) What you're doing here is catching Opennet users. Pure Darknet users wont be that easy to catch. He has stated that the network does not allow P2P applications running Freenet as pure darknet will technically be F2F, now we can start arguing whether F2F is a subset of P2P or a distinctly different thing. But if we accept that F2F and P2P are different, then people who haven't enabled Opennet are actually not violating that particular network's guidelines. Except that it's really, really obvious that friends are a subset of peers. See definition of peers. In a computing context, peers is as distinct from client/server etc. This is a silly argument, and any sysadmin will (rightly) tell you you're an idiot if you try to make it. Evan Daniel The issue with my university was that P2P applications do not let anybody control who connects to your computer. Each person has to be responsible for the connections being made to the machine. Clearly F2F network is *not* a subset of P2P under that light. So many users will (rightly) call you an idiot (since we were not discussing peers and friends, but P2P and F2F). - Volodya I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you. You control who your node connect with, but you *don't* control what goes through your node. You can control your friends, you cannot control friends of your friends. So we might consider that, _in the case of Freenet_, F2F is P2P, it's just extremely more difficult to censor. ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
