Re: Migration path, please! (Re: [freenet-support] Freenet 0, 5 and 0, 7

2006-08-25 Thread fwolff33



Juiceman wrote:


With 10 connections, the data that could intercepted by one attacker


is roughly 10%. The problem is the attacker doesn't know how many


connections you have, so you could just be passing on data from any


number of connections you have.





It's currently trivialy easy to find out if a request of a connected peer was forwarded by that peer or if it was a local request from that peer because local requests aren't stored in the datastore/-cache. (http://wiki.freenetproject.org/FreenetZeroPointSevenSecurity, search for the headline "Datastore") Thus you only have to probe the datastore of the requesting peer after sending the data to it and can find out if it was forwarded or originated there. In my opinion this isn't really acceptable on either a dark- or opennet (perhaps on a true darknet but that doesn't exist right now) but it certainly would cause havoc on an opennet.


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Re: Migration path, please! (Re: [freenet-support] Freenet 0, 5 and 0, 7

2006-08-24 Thread Evan Daniel

On 24 Aug 2006 10:46:58 -0400, Rowland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

A me-too and a summary of the discussion thus far as I see it:

1. Breaking backward compatibility is a bad thing.
2. Saying you won't ever do it again is small comfort.
3. Providing a migration path would help a lot.
4. I don't care about the darknet. I don't object to its existence but I have 
no interest in it.
5. I want the opennet!
6. Backward compatibility between 0.5 and 0.7 looks like a foregone conclusion 
at this point.
7. What we need instead is a migration path from Freenet 0.5 to the 0.7 opennet.
8. And we need it badly. This could be a show stopper.
9. This should be a high priority item.

Now... what's the migration path gonna be?


First of all, it should be noted that there are significant technical
reasons that migrating content is difficult.  Key size changed from a
variable size from (IIRC) 1kB to 1MB to the current version of 32kB
for CHKs and 1kB for other keys.  Since most content needs bigger keys
than that, splitfiles are transparently supported.  The result is that
the locations of all the files changed.  Any data migration plan would
have to deal with this, and doing so is a non-trivial project.
Specifically, it would require more work on the part of the developers
(who are seriously overworked as it is) than it would require of the
users to reinsert the content on the new network and modify things as
needed.

1 -- yup, I agree.  But you were warned long ago it might happen.  It
did.  There were good reasons, and it wasn't done lightly.

2 -- actually, I don't think anyone has said it won't happen again.
Just that they will work very very hard to have it not happen before
1.0 gets released, which is still at least a couple years away.

3 -- yes, it would.  Please feel free to contribute one.  Personally,
as a donor to the freenet project, I would prefer my money go toward
doing cutting edge research into anonymity, and making the 0.7 version
work.

4 -- that's either naive or short-sighted.  No matter where you are,
it looks likely that opennet won't be a viable option forever.  We
can't just wait until that happens to produce an answer.  Also,
darknet has *inherent* security advantages that have been discussed
numerous times.

5 -- Yep.  So do most of us.  Myself included.  Getting enough refs is
pain when you don't know many people running Freenet (I know exactly
1).  Opennet is coming; be patient.  There are a lot of reasons not to
deploy opennet yet.  Most of them boil down to a) darknet is easer to
make work well and b) it doesn't yet.  Combined with c) most things
that improve the darknet performance will help the opennet, it seems
reasonable to try to fix the darknet first.

6 -- I think (and hope) it is.

7 -- We have one.  Install 0.7, and insert your content into it.  The
obvious improvement over this would be an easy way for most
applications to cross-post content.  In fact, I'll bet all most people
really need is for Frost to do that, and they can handle freesites etc
manually.  So please talk to the Frost devs about that, it would be
*way* easier than trying to solve the problem at the node level.

8 -- Doesn't appear to be yet.  It looks like the darknet is alive and
growing, though small.

9 -- I disagree.  If you want a file sharing program, go find one.  If
you want a chat program, go find one.  If you want an answer for
communicating in an actively hostile environment with legal backing to
its hostility, you need Freenet.  Except that you don't need 0.5,
because that doesn't solve the problem.  And you don't even really
need 0.7, because it doesn't yet either.  What you need is for smart,
motivated people to be working hard at finding a solution for you,
because AFAICT it doesn't exist yet.  And I think that's exactly what
the devs are doing.  Working on back compatibility would be a huge
drain on those resources, and they're working against a very real
clock.

Evan
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Re: Migration path, please! (Re: [freenet-support] Freenet 0, 5 and 0, 7

2006-08-24 Thread diddler4u

Evan,

Would you define this statement? they're (developers) working against a 
very real

clock.

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Re: Migration path, please! (Re: [freenet-support] Freenet 0, 5 and 0, 7

2006-08-24 Thread Evan Daniel

On 8/24/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Evan,

Would you define this statement? they're (developers) working against a
very real
clock.


Happily.  At some point, running Freenet will (likely) become illegal,
assuming current trends continue.  This includes in the West.  It may
already be in France.  It is safe to assume that developing Freenet
will have the same legal status, whatever that may be.

When that happens, the darknet needs to be sufficiently functional for
development to move off the public net and onto the darknet.  If the
darknet can't support a collaborative development effort by then, we
have a real problem.  It may or may not be enough to kill Freenet
entirely, but it would be a big enough setback to make data resets and
incompatible versions look rosy by comparison.

Evan
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Re: Migration path, please! (Re: [freenet-support] Freenet 0, 5 and 0, 7

2006-08-24 Thread diddler4u
So by running 0.7 in default mode I'm running in darknet? Or is there 
another piece of the freenet puzzle I need to discover?




From: Evan Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], support@freenetproject.org
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: support@freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Migration path, please! (Re: [freenet-support] Freenet 0, 5 
and 0,7

Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:46:11 -0400

On 8/24/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Evan,

Would you define this statement? they're (developers) working against a
very real
clock.


Happily.  At some point, running Freenet will (likely) become illegal,
assuming current trends continue.  This includes in the West.  It may
already be in France.  It is safe to assume that developing Freenet
will have the same legal status, whatever that may be.

When that happens, the darknet needs to be sufficiently functional for
development to move off the public net and onto the darknet.  If the
darknet can't support a collaborative development effort by then, we
have a real problem.  It may or may not be enough to kill Freenet
entirely, but it would be a big enough setback to make data resets and
incompatible versions look rosy by comparison.

Evan
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Re: Migration path, please! (Re: [freenet-support] Freenet 0, 5 and 0, 7

2006-08-24 Thread Juiceman

On 8/24/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

So by running 0.7 in default mode I'm running in darknet? Or is there
another piece of the freenet puzzle I need to discover?




It is a darknet because unless you give out your ref to someone
(like currently on IRC but that will change when 0.7 becomes large
enough for users to know friends using 0.7), it almost impractical to
tell you are even running Freenet.  The open-net is promiscuous and
is easily mapped.  See
http://www.itic.ca/DIC/News/archive.html#2004-05-25

They can have your IP address and with an ignorant judge, the RIAA
MPAA etc can serve you a lawsuit for copyright violations (regardless
of whether or not you are infringing.)  All they have to do is
convince a technologically ignorant judge that Freenet is like the old
Napster or similar program and they traced copyrighted material
coming off your IP address.  You are now hiring a lawyer to get the
case dismissed.  That is a plausible reason to use a darknet instead
of an open-net here in the free West.  Now imagine running the
program can get you thrown in jail for subversive information
spreading in some Eastern country and they can collect the info just
as quickly with an open-net...  A darknet would slow them down
immensely.

Now you see why open-nets are bad in the long run?


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Re: Migration path, please! (Re: [freenet-support] Freenet 0, 5 and 0, 7

2006-08-24 Thread urza9814

opennets are only bad in certain circumstances. The USA is not yet one
of them. With a darknet, it may be harder to get into the network, but
once your in it's a LOT easier to identify who is sharing and
inserting what files. So it could be argued that a darknet is much
riskier than an opennet. In a darknet, everyone else pretty much knows
who you are. As soon as one computer on the net gets compromised or
one person decides they don't like what you're doing, you're all
pretty much screwed. I mean, I'm no expert on darknets, but it seems
that if you only have 5 or 10 connections, and you always have the
same connections, and you have IRC logs swapping node refs and, better
yet, the actual node ref...it would be pretty easy to figure out what
nodes host what files. In an opennet, this kind of thing is expected
and protected against.

On 8/24/06, Juiceman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 8/24/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 So by running 0.7 in default mode I'm running in darknet? Or is there
 another piece of the freenet puzzle I need to discover?



It is a darknet because unless you give out your ref to someone
(like currently on IRC but that will change when 0.7 becomes large
enough for users to know friends using 0.7), it almost impractical to
tell you are even running Freenet.  The open-net is promiscuous and
is easily mapped.  See
http://www.itic.ca/DIC/News/archive.html#2004-05-25

They can have your IP address and with an ignorant judge, the RIAA
MPAA etc can serve you a lawsuit for copyright violations (regardless
of whether or not you are infringing.)  All they have to do is
convince a technologically ignorant judge that Freenet is like the old
Napster or similar program and they traced copyrighted material
coming off your IP address.  You are now hiring a lawyer to get the
case dismissed.  That is a plausible reason to use a darknet instead
of an open-net here in the free West.  Now imagine running the
program can get you thrown in jail for subversive information
spreading in some Eastern country and they can collect the info just
as quickly with an open-net...  A darknet would slow them down
immensely.

Now you see why open-nets are bad in the long run?


--
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the
death, your right to say it. - Voltaire
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Re: Migration path, please! (Re: [freenet-support] Freenet 0, 5 and 0, 7

2006-08-24 Thread Juiceman

On 8/24/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

opennets are only bad in certain circumstances. The USA is not yet one
of them. With a darknet, it may be harder to get into the network, but
once your in it's a LOT easier to identify who is sharing and
inserting what files. So it could be argued that a darknet is much
riskier than an opennet. In a darknet, everyone else pretty much knows
who you are. As soon as one computer on the net gets compromised or
one person decides they don't like what you're doing, you're all
pretty much screwed. I mean, I'm no expert on darknets, but it seems
that if you only have 5 or 10 connections, and you always have the
same connections, and you have IRC logs swapping node refs and, better
yet, the actual node ref...it would be pretty easy to figure out what
nodes host what files. In an opennet, this kind of thing is expected
and protected against.



With 10 connections, the data that could intercepted by one attacker
is roughly 10%.  The problem is the attacker doesn't know how many
connections you have, so you could just be passing on data from any
number of connections you have.
--
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the
death, your right to say it. - Voltaire
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