date:20050902

That's where you are wrong Todd.

For many things I am still at the bottom of the heap, and freely admit it.

For other things I have learned from other peoples mistakes, and admit to
that too.

Other things I learned from my own mistakes, nothing wrong with that either.

Simply put, I refuse to be a totaly hopeless victim and try to plan
accordingly.

I am on a budget just like many of those people.I have been stuck alone
in a blizzard 4 days without any contact with the outside or food other than
2 cans of soup and a few crackers that I had with me, so you can not say
that I haven't  been on a roof top , and don't know what it's like.

Preparations can be made if you make the effort.

I made the effort, it can be done.

There is always something that can be done.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:27
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 You know Greg,

 Sometimes doing nothing is the best that anyone can do. I guess it's
 been a long time since you've been at the bottom of the heap, having few
 or no options and nothing much else available to you other than hope
 that it gets no worse.

 I wonder what roofs you'd have been standing on if you were in some of
 those persons situations.

 But instead of you attempting to understand what the worst of worst
 situations could be, even before any calamity, I suppose we get to
 listen to you going on, issuing more of the same thoughtless mimickery
 as if everyone in the world has been afforded the same opportunities as
you.

 Simply put? Your superiority complex, arrogance and carelessness are
 showing.

 Todd Swearingen



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Re: [Biofuel] Flywheel 'batteries'

2005-09-02 Thread Tony DeCarmine

Well - it IS nice to kick over a hornet's nest, from time to time...

I like this table (posted earlier):

Table 12.1 Energy-storage data. 
 Maximum energy-storage capability of various materials

 W-hr/lbm kJ/kgMaterial
 14,900  118,250  Hydrogen 
   5,85046,430  Gasoline 
   2,76021,900  Methanol 
  208  1,650  Silver-zinc-battery 
85 675  Lead-acid-battery 
14  111 Flywheel 
10   79  Compressed gas and container
  1 8  Rubber bands 
  0.060.5   Springs

Quite the illustration. Trick is, the infrastructure is a good bit simpler for 
the flywheel than for the H2 or even gas and MeOH. Also, this figure for a 
flywheel assumes... something. Likely a figure for a cast iron simple disc. 
There are better ways of building a flywheel.

In fact, comments about fragmentation issues from other flywheel projects bring 
up the materials issue - modern ultra-high speed flywheels use carbon fiber 
wraps. There is a limiting factor involving the ratio of density to tensile 
strength and modulus - carbon fibers kick steel's butt in the modulus area. 
Allows much higher rotational speeds. Look at the wheels on those supersonic 
cars - no Goodyears there. Similar construction - velocity of the outside 
diameter of the tires for these cars reaches mach 1. Heeluva flywheel. 
Especially since (look at the posting with the formulae) kinetic energy in a 
flywheel is, IIRC, proportional to the *square* of the rotational velocity. 
I'll stay out of the polar moment thing for now.

In another post this thread someone mentioned using Concrete and thin water 
film bearings. I was reminded of a few neat toys one can occasionally find. 
Seems one can polish a 1 meter granite sphere and a mating socket well enough 
that a few psi water pressure can float the many-tons ball such that a small 
child can get it spinning - with effort. Stopping it, well... This is likely a 
better solution than mags and a vacuum bottle. The bottle (which I didn't think 
of before) is only really required with ultra-high speed wheels - the multi-ton 
concrete job wouldn't spin too fast (couldn't, really - no good in tension) to 
store some good HP-Hours.

Boku lo-tech...

Pax,
Tony








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Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions (please).

2005-09-02 Thread Jeromie Reeves

Manzo, Emil wrote:

 Hi Joe, for no (very few) moving parts you need a ram-jet. Or as some 
 used to call a “scram jet”.

A scramjet is for once you reach super sonic speeds and is designed 
slightly differently then a ramjet. Same
mechanics of operation though.

 It is essentially a pipe with a venturi and a fuel injector. It needs 
 to have air flowing through it before ignition, like if it was 
 attached to a glider or vehicle. Once enough airspeed flows, the 
 injector is activated and the fuel ignited producing thrust. I bet WVO 
 would work for fuel J. Another one of my hair-brained dreams….

 Regards,

 Emil

 -Original Message-
 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Joe Street
 *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:03 PM
 *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd 
 like to try something...but first, your opinions (please).

 Yes but as for sustainability tell me how long do these things run for 
 at 60 and 70,000RPM and how often do you have to repair them??

 Joe

 Michael Redler wrote:

 You have to have deep pockets to play with those things.

 Not necessarily. I joined [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] a few weeks ago after learning 
 that you can get everything you need from a junk yard. People are 
 buying auto turbochargers and back feeding the compressor gasses to 
 the exhaust turbine and adding some fuel and an igniter (spark plug).

 http://www.junkyardjet.com/

 I'm just having trouble collecting data on efficiency for this technique.

 Mike


 */Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 Hi Emil;

 I should have said that is not my page. I haven't built a
 conventional type pulsejet. I just pulled the link from my
 bookmarks FYI.
 I am more interested in the coanda effect and the ferroelectric
 effect. The problem wih turbines is they are not very sustainable.
 You have to have deep pockets to play with those things. I want
 something with no moving parts. (other than phonons :-) )
 Just wanted to let you know there are surplus turbines available
 out there.

 Good luck
 Joe

 Manzo, Emil wrote:

 Hi Joe. When you said Pulse-jet you reminded me of something I saw
 when I was a kid. It was a small jet turbine that bolted onto your
 car’s differential. It bolted in place of the rear differential
 cover and connected to your fuel and electrical system. As the car
 ran down the highway, the turbine came up to speed and you could
 flip a switch and inject fuel into it for a boost. Primitive but
 effective. I bet one of these would run well on biodiesel.

 Your pulse-jets are fabulous. At first I thought they were
 “scram-jets” but then saw the turbine. Cool. How much to they cost?

 -Original Message-
 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Joe
 Street
 *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:39 PM
 *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re:
 I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions (please).

 This is not at all far fetched. Several people are bulding teir
 own turbines and other things like pulsejet engines etc. However
 you can get surplus APU's (auxiliary power units) at bargain
 prices if you look around. Check here:
 http://freespace.virgin.net/dyno.power/gasturbine/

 Fun stuff! Pulse jets are not just for the military anymore! There
 is even a guy talking about building his own personal cruise
 missile. =-O Talk about civil disobedience!

 Joe

 Michael Redler wrote:

 I've been researching the feasibility of building a biofuel
 turbojet engine.

 Apparently, it's not as far fetched as one might think. I'm still
 unsure of thermal efficiency and if it's competitive with other
 cycles. In theory, it should be.

 Has anyone done similar research?

 Mike

 






 

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Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions (please).




I think you are right, but, that doesn't 
help him right now.


Greg H.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  15:12
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: 
  [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions 
  (please).
  The jury is still out on that. They had no legal grounds 
  for shutting him down (last I heard)JoeGreg and April wrote:
  



Yes, and he was shut down because 
governments panicked.

Greg H.


  - 
  Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: 
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: 
  Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:38
  Subject: 
  Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try 
  something...but first, your opinions (please).
  
  snip
  Fun stuff! Pulse jets are not just for the military 
  anymore! There is even a guy talking about building his own personal 
  cruise missile. 
  =-O  
  Talk about civil disobedience!JoeMichael Redler 
  wrote:
  


I've been researching the feasibility ofbuilding a 
biofuelturbojet engine.

Apparently, it's not as far fetched as one might think. I'm still 
unsure of thermal efficiency and if it's competitive with other cycles. 
In theory, it should be.

Has anyone done similar research?

MikeNick [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]From: 
  "Nick" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: 
  Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:00:46 -Subject: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd 
  like to try something...but first, your opinions 
  (please).Don and John have both built fine shaft engines 
  so there is no reason why you can't build yourself an auxilliary 
  generator. You should be abe to use a very small gas generator 
  perhaps couple to the turbine of a slightly larger turbo. replace 
  the compressor with a step down gearing and into a generator 
  see what John has built here... http://www.nickhaddock.co.uk/jetgallery.htm 
  Nick :-)--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
  Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
   Hi everyone,  Has anyone attached a fan 
  w/shaft after the cumbustor as a power take off and has anyone 
  used a turbojet for power generation. If this is feasible I'd like 
  to build a small auxiliary generator.  If I get a lot 
  of "thumbs down" on that idea, that's OK too. It was just a 
  thought.  Mike
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread John I

 Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:37:35 -0500
 From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is
 There Blame?
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Message-ID:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a
 fellow human being.
 Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy).
 They are pleading
 for help even though you think they might not
 deserve it (have mercy).
 That's what drew me to this list in the first place;
 sharing information
 freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of
 ideas here greater
 than any one person. If my reactor catches fire
 because I made a stupid
 mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I
 feel when I read your
 posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry.

I also find it hard to critisize someone for not
planning contigency meals (or more) in case of an
emergency when they may have a tough time planning or
providing the very meal they'll eat tonight.  As it's
been said, it's hard to go when you have no means to
go, so you're stuck.  It's horrible and I can only
imagine that fealing of helplessness.  That being
said, I find it hard to catagorize all the victims
as victims.  There is something to be said for the
idea that most have chosen that's where they'll live
rather then being forced by virtue of economics or
other.  It's been said more then a few times in the
list on this subject how questionable it is to live
below sea level next to the sea... and in a known
hurricane area to boot.  Past that, I think it's quite
reasonable, and should be encouraged,  to present
contigencies or various ideas in this group.  I
suspect that many of the affected by this storm will
not approach life in the same way just as do many who
survive a disaster of this sort.  Then again, many
just rebuild and continue as they were and hope it
doesn't happen again, complacent per the norm.  
I commend Greg for trying to be prepared and looking
after the wellfare of himself and his family.  I
suspect that he's shared his views of survival with
others, others that may well be saved by such advice. 
It's only too bad such a voice hadn't been heard by
more of the affected.  
Either way, whether by their own fault or not, my
heart goes out to the many who are suffering over loss
of home, life, certainty.  I'd like to wish that a
storm like this will never happen again, but we all
know it will... somewhere, sometime.

 Regards,
 Emil

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Greg and
 April
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is
 There Blame?

 Yes.

 If people live in an area, they should learn of
 dangerous natural
 occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal
 waves, blizzards and
 the
 like ), and make preparations for them.

 Like I said in another post:

 I have no issue with those that TRIED to do
 something to help them
 selves
 and still got into trouble.

 BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  (
 despite all the
 warnings ) to help them selves then expect the
 government and everyone
 else
 to drop what their doing and save them, because they
 would rather buy a
 case
 of beer, than a bus ticket..

 Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that
 they may only have 5
 min
 warning to get to higher ground, and may lose
 everything they should not
 live below a dam.

 If people are going to fly, they need to take it
 upon them selves to
 find
 out what kind of aircraft they are going to be
 flying on and find out if
 that model of aircraft has a good history of flight
 safety, and then
 take
 the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes
 the one in a
 million
 chance actualy happens.

 If one looks at the past one can see that a given
 area is subject to
 hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.

 If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the
 fact that you have
 a
 chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50
 ft of sea level near
 a
 coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well
 reach you.

 Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't
 leave because of
 ignorant parents and for the people that tried and
 still failed.Not
 for
 someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5
 gal bucket of water
 that
 could save their life.

 7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and
 cost about the same as
 a
 case of beer.

 If people would pay attention when the experts tell
 them not to expect
 help
 after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be
 allot better off
 putting
 the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink
 that stupid beer.
 With
 a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor
 are they hard to
 put
 together, I have put several together for my family.

 If I had to leave the house:
 I can with 5 min

Re: [Biofuel] [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...butfirst, your opinions (please).




I think it was in mid 2004 that the US gov, 
leaned on the NZ gov, claiming that the information that he was giving out was 
causing a terrorist threat.

Greg H.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Peter 
  Morgan 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  13:08
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [DIYGasTurbines] 
  Re: I'd like to try something...butfirst, your opinions (please).
  
  
  It was about 4 months ago, no luck contacting anyone, next time I am in NZ, 
  I will be sure to drop in though...lol
  
  From: "Greg and April" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: 
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo: 
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: 
  Re: [Biofuel] [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...butfirst, 
  your opinions (please).Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:05:11 
  -0600
  
  

  
  
I'm not surprised.

When did you send the 
money?

That guy was stepped on big time by Big 
Brotherafter 9-11.

Greg H.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Peter Morgan 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  12:21
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 
  [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions 
  (please).
  
  
  
  Just to warn you all...I sent my money to
  New pulse jet engine http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/xjet.shtml
  And did not get my stuff !
  Best Regards
  
  


From:Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:Re: 
[Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try 
something...but first, your opinions 
(please).Date:Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:11:39 
-0400Brian Rodgers wrote: 
You guys are a trip.  LOL there is 
no stopping some people.Here you will like this one for 
alternative 
transportationhttp://www.aeros-uk.co.uk/html/jetbug.htmlIt 
can burn biodiesel!!Joe This info 
has been some of the most entertaining reading I have done in 
years. Starting with: Build your own junkyard 
turbine http://www.junkyardjet.com/primitive.html 
 New pulse jet engine 
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/xjet.shtml I then went to see 
what Joe was talking about with:coanda effect and the 
ferroelectric effect. very cool stuff: Using The Coanda 
Effect In A Pulsejet: 
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/coanda.shtml  
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/coanda.htm Thank you for 
'making my day" Brian Rodgers  
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

No you shouldn't be dumped from the list.

Let's me see if I can put it in terms of your reactor.

If a guy down the street designed a reactor, and it caught fire.

2 months later he builds it again, and it catches fire again.

Who is at fault?

A different person hearing about biodiesel decides to build the same type of
reactor, despite hearing about the fires, and that one catches fire.Who
would be at fault?

A third person finds out about BioDiesel and  builds this reactor design,
and it catches fire.   Who is at fault?

And a 4th person and a 5th person and so on, and most of the times the
reactor designs catch fire.Who is at fault for the fires?

Ok now it is common knowledge that this reactor design is likely to catch
fires sooner or later.

What about if after the fires, you built the same design, despite being
warned many times that this is a dangerous design?
Who's fault would it be, that your reactor caught fire and burned down your
house, and your wife or kid ended up with 2nd degree burns because of it?
How do you think the people that warned you would feel, that they warned
you, but, you failed to listen?Would they feel sorrier for you that your
reactor burned down or sorrier for the person that ended up with the 2
degree burn?I think so.

How would you feel, if you know a person was warned that a reactor design
was dangerous, many times, before they built it, and they still built it?
What about after the reactor burned down and someone was injured or killed
because the warnings were not heeded?Sure, you would feel bad, that it
happened, but, you would also be angry, because the hurt and the pain need
not have been as severe if some precautions were taken.

I hurt, that it happened, but, in many ways I am extremely angry with the
situation, because I know, without any doubt, that it need not have been
that bad ( or be as bad as it is ) had more people been prepared, or taken
more steps to be prepared for the worst.Not just with individuals, but,
with the city of New Orleans, for it sure does not look like they had any
comprehensive disaster plan.And if anybody should have had a plan in
place to deal with a worst case scenario, they should have.The state is
just as guilty, they knew how bad it could get for years, heck I knew for 15
years that this could happen, so did many other, and the warnings were out
there.Unfortunately it always starts with the individuals, because, it
almost always takes at least 72 hrs to really get people and supplies moving
to those that needs it.

What am I doing about it?

It doesn't matter, because someone could claim I'm making it up, and how
would I prove a negative wrong?

Greg H.




- Original Message - 
From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:37
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.
 Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleading
 for help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).
 That's what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing information
 freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greater
 than any one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupid
 mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read your
 posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry.

 Regards,
 Emil

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg and
 April
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

 Yes.

 If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
 occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
 the
 like ), and make preparations for them.

 Like I said in another post:

 I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
 selves
 and still got into trouble.

 BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
 warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
 else
 to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
 case
 of beer, than a bus ticket..

 Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
 min
 warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
 live below a dam.

 If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to
 find
 out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
 that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then
 take
 the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a
 million
 chance actualy happens.

 If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
 hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.

 If you live below sea level near a

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Flamemom





In a message dated 9/1/2005 5:16:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor 
  judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment?The irony here ishow 
  youexpress less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
  worse.
  
  Mike

The issue isn't quite that simple.
These people aren't doing anything to help themselves.
They are shooting at the rescue workers, setting fires, massive 
looting.

More security being sent in means less resources for the relief.
Yet security is the issue these people have forced to the front of the 
list.

I also don't have any sympathy for people who refuse to help themselves and 
do their best to interfere with those who are trying to help them.

To shoot at someone trying to help another, just because it isn't you is 
pretty horrible.
If you want to get help for yourself and your family, pitch in and help 
out. Speed up the rescue and assistance for those in more need and your turn 
comes faster.

I've never seen any disaster before where the victims refused to pitch in, 
shot at rescue workers and in general made their own relief more 
difficult.

In the hurricane damage in Florida, the day after people were getting out 
and about, cleaning up (particularly the roads) and making repairs and doing 
what ever they could for each other and making things easier for the relief to 
get thru.

I was in the Earthquake in San Francisco, and immediately after it settled, 
we were doing the same thing. Helping each other and cleaning up and making 
ourselves easy tohelp.

These people are not following the pattern and I don't have any sympathy 
for them either.

Relief buses are very, very late because the roads are blocked. Fine, get 
out and help clear the roads. No food being distributed, fine get a hold of 
someone in charge and volunteer to lead your fellows to do the work. If relief 
isn't timely because it takes large teams to do the work of one person simply 
for security's sake, then relief simply isn't going to be timely or 
efficient.

These people don't get my sympathy either, they horrify me.

I thought that the majority of the people on a list like this one would be 
very much into doing for yourself, not waiting around depending on others to 
rescue us from the dinodiesel (I love that word, thanks to who ever used it) 
problems. People who step right up and do what needs to be done. People who help 
each other not from charity or empathy but from the desire to propagate the 
ideas and energy of "do-it-yourself".

Therefore, I find his attitude quite logical.

I'm a newbie though, what do I know.

Blessings
Johanna
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Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost

2005-09-02 Thread Terry Dyck

New Orleans was not only lost because Bush has his troops in Iraq but 
because the cause of the hurricane is that the Gulf of Mexico is very hot 
this year because of Global Warming and Bush has not signed the Kyoto accord 
or helped in anyway to slow down Global Warming.


Terry Dyck



From: Bede [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:16:30 +1200


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10062.htm


How New Orleans Was Lost

By Paul Craig Roberts

09/01/05 Antiwar -- -- Chalk up the city of New Orleans as a cost of
Bush's Iraq war.

There were not enough helicopters to repair the breached levees and rescue
people trapped by rising water. Nor are there enough Louisiana National
Guardsmen available to help with rescue efforts and to patrol against
looting.

The situation is the same in Mississippi.

The National Guard and helicopters are off on a fool's mission in Iraq.

The National Guard is in Iraq because fanatical neoconservatives in the 
Bush

administration were determined to invade the Middle East and because
incompetent Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld refused to listen to the 
generals,

who told him there were not enough regular troops available to do the job.

After the invasion, the arrogant Rumsfeld found out that the generals were
right. The National Guard was called up to fill in the gaping gaps.

Now the Guardsmen, trapped in the Iraqi quagmire, are watching on TV the
families they left behind trapped by rising waters and wondering if the
floating bodies are family members. None know where their dislocated
families are, but, shades of Fallujah, they do see their destroyed homes.

The mayor of New Orleans was counting on helicopters to put in place 
massive

sandbags to repair the levee. However, someone called the few helicopters
away to rescue people from rooftops. The rising water overwhelmed the
massive pumping stations, and New Orleans disappeared under deep water.

What a terrible casualty of the Iraqi war  one of our oldest and most
beautiful cities, a famous city, a historic city.

Distracted by its phony war on terrorism, the U.S. government had made no
preparations in the event Hurricane Katrina brought catastrophe to New
Orleans. No contingency plan existed. Only now after the disaster are FEMA
and the Corps of Engineers trying to assemble the material and equipment to
save New Orleans from the fate of Atlantis.

Even worse, articles in the New Orleans Times-Picayune and public 
statements

by emergency management chiefs in New Orleans make it clear that the Bush
administration slashed the funding for the Corps of Engineers' projects to
strengthen and raise the New Orleans levees and diverted the money to the
Iraq war.

Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told the
New Orleans Times-Picayune (June 8, 2004): It appears that the money has
been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the 
war
in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy 
that
the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make 
the

case that this is a security issue for us.

Why can't the U.S. government focus on America's needs and leave other
countries alone? Why are American troops in Iraq instead of protecting our
own borders from a mass invasion by illegal immigrants? Why are American
helicopters blowing up Iraqi homes instead of saving American homes in New
Orleans?

How can the Bush administration be so incompetent as to expose Americans at
home to dire risks by exhausting American resources in foolish foreign
adventures? What kind of homeland security is this?

All Bush has achieved by invading Iraq is to kill and wound thousands of
people while destroying America's reputation. The only beneficiaries are 
oil
companies capitalizing on a good excuse to jack up the price of gasoline 
and

Osama bin Laden's recruitment.

What we have is a Republican war for oil company profits while New Orleans
sinks beneath the waters.


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?




No. 

I'm saying that when specialist from the 
field of meteorology say it's going to be a bad storm and they should evacuate 
coastal areas,people should believe them.

I'm saying that when specialist from the 
field of geology say thata any break in the levies would put 20 feet ( or 
more ) of water in parts of New Orleans, people should believe 
them.

I'm saying that whenspecialist from 
the field of disaster relief and disaster preparedness, say not to expect any 
direct help from the government for the first 72 hrs after a disaster, people 
should believethem.

That is what I'm am saying.

What you are hearing from meis not a 
matter of expressingless sympathy as the results ofmatters 
gettingworse, but, of extremefrustration on my part, from knowing, 
that part of this suffering, did not have to happen, had more planning been 
done.

" People don't plan to 
fail. People justfail to plan ".

The more suffering I'm hearing about, 
themore frustrated I am getting. I am extremely 
frustrated about the whole situation, and there is not much more I can do, other 
than I have already done, ( other than to warn other's )and I don't like 
it one little bit.


Greg H.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  14:54
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New 
  Orleans. Is There Blame?
  
  
  Whatever happened to "From Each According To His Abilities, To Each 
  According To His Needs"?
  
  ...oh, I forgot. That never really caught on in the US (sorry, couldn't 
  help myself).
  
  So Greg, when you say stuff like "
  
  "If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."
  
  Are you saying that we should scold them first, then help them? Maybe you 
  mean that they "made their bed" and now they should "lay in it" as the saying 
  goes.
  "If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."
  
  You mean like, civil servants, in uniform like the police or something. 
  That's the funny part Greg. Those "experts" have been barking ordersat 
  some of the people down there for decades. You would think that they would 
  listen and maybe trust them when they say something. By the way, ...ever watch 
  Mississippi Burning? ...great movie!
  
  I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor 
  judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment?The irony here ishow 
  youexpress less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
  worse.
  
  Mike"Manzo, Emil" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  You 
can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.Put 
yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleadingfor 
help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).That's 
what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing informationfreely 
to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greaterthan any 
one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupidmistake, 
should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read yourposts 
doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry. 
Regards,Emil-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Greg andAprilSent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 
PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina 
slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?Yes.If people live in an 
area, they should learn of dangerous naturaloccurrences ( quakes, 
tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards andthelike ), and make 
preparations for them.Like I said in another post:"I have no 
issue with those that TRIED to do something to help themselvesand 
still got into trouble.BUT I do have issues with those that did 
NOTHING ( despite all thewarnings ) to help them selves then expect the 
government and everyoneelseto drop what their doing and save them, 
because they would rather buy acaseof beer, than a bus 
ticket.".Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they 
may only have 5minwarning to get to higher ground, and may lose 
everything they should notlive below a dam.If people are going 
to fly, they need to take it upon them selves tofindout what kind of 
aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out ifthat model of 
aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and thentakethe 
personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in 
amillionchance actualy happens.If one looks at the past one 
can see that a given area is subject tohurricanes and should prepare 
accordingly.If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the 
fact that you haveachance of getting flooded. If you live within 50 
ft of sea level nearacoast, expect that the tidal surge could very 
well reach you.Empathy? My empathy is for the kids that couldn't 
leave because ofignorant parents and for the people that

Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost

2005-09-02 Thread TarynToo

Wow, nice catch Bede, Fits right in with is there blame?

I just love to blame stuff on Bush and his cronies. Except...I'm not  
sure that all the kings men could have put Orleans together again.

Certainly, having pissed away the country's emergency resources, Bush  
is responsible for many of the deaths in La and Ms. Kinda like stupid  
kids who empty the fire extinguishers in school.  But I think Katrina,  
and years of head-in-the-sand development is what drowned Orleans.

taryn
http://ornae.com/

On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Bede wrote:


 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10062.htm


 How New Orleans Was Lost

 By Paul Craig Roberts

 09/01/05 Antiwar -- -- Chalk up the city of New Orleans as a cost of
 Bush's Iraq war.

 There were not enough helicopters to repair the breached levees and  
 rescue
 people trapped by rising water. Nor are there enough Louisiana National
 Guardsmen available to help with rescue efforts and to patrol against
 looting.

 The situation is the same in Mississippi.

 The National Guard and helicopters are off on a fool's mission in Iraq.

 The National Guard is in Iraq because fanatical neoconservatives in  
 the Bush
 administration were determined to invade the Middle East and because
 incompetent Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld refused to listen to the  
 generals,
 who told him there were not enough regular troops available to do the  
 job.

 After the invasion, the arrogant Rumsfeld found out that the generals  
 were
 right. The National Guard was called up to fill in the gaping gaps.

 Now the Guardsmen, trapped in the Iraqi quagmire, are watching on TV  
 the
 families they left behind trapped by rising waters and wondering if the
 floating bodies are family members. None know where their dislocated
 families are, but, shades of Fallujah, they do see their destroyed  
 homes.

 The mayor of New Orleans was counting on helicopters to put in place  
 massive
 sandbags to repair the levee. However, someone called the few  
 helicopters
 away to rescue people from rooftops. The rising water overwhelmed the
 massive pumping stations, and New Orleans disappeared under deep water.

 What a terrible casualty of the Iraqi war – one of our oldest and most
 beautiful cities, a famous city, a historic city.

 Distracted by its phony war on terrorism, the U.S. government had made  
 no
 preparations in the event Hurricane Katrina brought catastrophe to New
 Orleans. No contingency plan existed. Only now after the disaster are  
 FEMA
 and the Corps of Engineers trying to assemble the material and  
 equipment to
 save New Orleans from the fate of Atlantis.

 Even worse, articles in the New Orleans Times-Picayune and public  
 statements
 by emergency management chiefs in New Orleans make it clear that the  
 Bush
 administration slashed the funding for the Corps of Engineers'  
 projects to
 strengthen and raise the New Orleans levees and diverted the money to  
 the
 Iraq war.

 Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told  
 the
 New Orleans Times-Picayune (June 8, 2004): It appears that the money  
 has
 been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and  
 the war
 in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is  
 happy that
 the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to  
 make the
 case that this is a security issue for us.

 Why can't the U.S. government focus on America's needs and leave other
 countries alone? Why are American troops in Iraq instead of protecting  
 our
 own borders from a mass invasion by illegal immigrants? Why are  
 American
 helicopters blowing up Iraqi homes instead of saving American homes in  
 New
 Orleans?

 How can the Bush administration be so incompetent as to expose  
 Americans at
 home to dire risks by exhausting American resources in foolish foreign
 adventures? What kind of homeland security is this?

 All Bush has achieved by invading Iraq is to kill and wound thousands  
 of
 people while destroying America's reputation. The only beneficiaries  
 are oil
 companies capitalizing on a good excuse to jack up the price of  
 gasoline and
 Osama bin Laden's recruitment.

 What we have is a Republican war for oil company profits while New  
 Orleans
 sinks beneath the waters.


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Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: OpAmp Active Filter Synthesis

2005-09-02 Thread Mike Montour

Kirk McLoren wrote:

 Very lossy -- and not recommended.
 Don Lancaster was interested in efficient inverters and the least number
 of switches.
 I think his website is tiaja.com

http://www.tinaja.com/magsn01.asp

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread TarynToo

In captions on news photos of Orleans:
White people who were carrying boxes were 'scavenging'.
Black people who were carrying boxes were 'looting'.

Both the white scavengers and the black looters were collecting stuff 
that was certain to be a complete write-off for whomever owned it 
before. Who cares if a wet TV ends up in someone's new cardboard home?

Robert Heinlein (I think) once said, The punishment for stupidity is 
death. If you're seeking consumer electronics instead of water, food, 
and medicine, the Darwin effect is sure to get you.

When some poor fool gets caught with a few joints, more than once, we 
toss him in prison for a long mandatory sentence, often evicting some 
rapist or murderer who wasn't  mandatorily sentenced.
When some rich fool gets caught defrauding 300 million people, we 
re-elect him.

Ok, that's my rant for the evening, g'night all.

taryn
http://ornae.com/


On Sep 1, 2005, at 10:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Kim,

 You and Greg are not the only ones who feel that way.  I am just 
 getting
 caught up on the day's email, and I found that I agree more with you 
 two
 that most of the others on this particular topic.  If I lived in a
 disaster-prone area, like Southern Louisiana, Florida, Southern 
 California
 or even Seattle/Tacoma area, I would certainly prepare for the worst.

 I also do not condemn the people who attempted to help themselves.  In 
 fact,
 I do feel sorry for those souls who did evacuate (or tried to) and now 
 do
 not know where their homes are still standing or have been stripped 
 clean by
 selfish looters.  I would gladly open my home to someone in that 
 situation,
 whether I knew them well or not.

 For those who stayed behind against the warnings of the weather experts
 (including the non-governmental ones), state and local governments, 
 don't
 worry, the Fed's will come in and bail you out as they always do.  I 
 just
 hope that the local police get a copy of the news tapes showing the 
 faces of
 those looters carrying TVs  DVD players out of the abandoned stores.  
 What
 do you need a TV for when the power is expected to be out for weeks or
 months?  It would be nice to see some prosecuted.

 Thanks,

 Earl Kinsley
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 --
 Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible 
 government
 owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. 
 To
 destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance 
 between
 corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the 
 statesmen of
 today.
  - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906

 - Original Message -
 From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 Greetings,

 I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration 
 with
 people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to 
 pick
 up the pieces?

 Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just 
 those who
 don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we 
 were
 growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water 
 main
 and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street
 that
 was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have 
 the
 money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums. 
  I
 mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid 
 they
 were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help 
 the
 guy.

 How about:  God helps those who help themselves?

 I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves 
 and
 others is out of line.

 And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
 people of Louisianna.

 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:


 I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
 judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how 
 you
 express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
 worse.

 Mike


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Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost

2005-09-02 Thread Hakan Falk


Taryn,

You must admit that he killed many more in Iraq for the money,
he is responsible for those death also, maybe he call that
efficiency instead. More killed for the money. I can guarantee
that the pictures of devastated people that we now see from
Orleans, have been going on for many years in Iraq. So it is
not only Bush fault, he only raised the bar and achieved much
more in shorter time frame.

When media show the desperation among the Iraqi people, it
is not many who cares, maybe Orleans will create more of
compassion for the country that US occupy. The homes that
are destroyed and people killed in Iraq, are 100's times more
than Orleans.

Hakan


At 08:38 02/09/2005, you wrote:
Wow, nice catch Bede, Fits right in with is there blame?

I just love to blame stuff on Bush and his cronies. Except...I'm not
sure that all the kings men could have put Orleans together again.

Certainly, having pissed away the country's emergency resources, Bush
is responsible for many of the deaths in La and Ms. Kinda like stupid
kids who empty the fire extinguishers in school.  But I think Katrina,
and years of head-in-the-sand development is what drowned Orleans.

taryn
http://ornae.com/

On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Bede wrote:

 
  http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10062.htm
 
 
  How New Orleans Was Lost
 
  By Paul Craig Roberts
 
  09/01/05 Antiwar -- -- Chalk up the city of New Orleans as a cost of
  Bush's Iraq war.
 
  There were not enough helicopters to repair the breached levees and
  rescue
  people trapped by rising water. Nor are there enough Louisiana National
  Guardsmen available to help with rescue efforts and to patrol against
  looting.
 
  The situation is the same in Mississippi.
 
  The National Guard and helicopters are off on a fool's mission in Iraq.
 
  The National Guard is in Iraq because fanatical neoconservatives in
  the Bush
  administration were determined to invade the Middle East and because
  incompetent Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld refused to listen to the
  generals,
  who told him there were not enough regular troops available to do the
  job.
 
  After the invasion, the arrogant Rumsfeld found out that the generals
  were
  right. The National Guard was called up to fill in the gaping gaps.
 
  Now the Guardsmen, trapped in the Iraqi quagmire, are watching on TV
  the
  families they left behind trapped by rising waters and wondering if the
  floating bodies are family members. None know where their dislocated
  families are, but, shades of Fallujah, they do see their destroyed
  homes.
 
  The mayor of New Orleans was counting on helicopters to put in place
  massive
  sandbags to repair the levee. However, someone called the few
  helicopters
  away to rescue people from rooftops. The rising water overwhelmed the
  massive pumping stations, and New Orleans disappeared under deep water.
 
  What a terrible casualty of the Iraqi war  one of our oldest and most
  beautiful cities, a famous city, a historic city.
 
  Distracted by its phony war on terrorism, the U.S. government had made
  no
  preparations in the event Hurricane Katrina brought catastrophe to New
  Orleans. No contingency plan existed. Only now after the disaster are
  FEMA
  and the Corps of Engineers trying to assemble the material and
  equipment to
  save New Orleans from the fate of Atlantis.
 
  Even worse, articles in the New Orleans Times-Picayune and public
  statements
  by emergency management chiefs in New Orleans make it clear that the
  Bush
  administration slashed the funding for the Corps of Engineers'
  projects to
  strengthen and raise the New Orleans levees and diverted the money to
  the
  Iraq war.
 
  Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told
  the
  New Orleans Times-Picayune (June 8, 2004): It appears that the money
  has
  been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and
  the war
  in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is
  happy that
  the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to
  make the
  case that this is a security issue for us.
 
  Why can't the U.S. government focus on America's needs and leave other
  countries alone? Why are American troops in Iraq instead of protecting
  our
  own borders from a mass invasion by illegal immigrants? Why are
  American
  helicopters blowing up Iraqi homes instead of saving American homes in
  New
  Orleans?
 
  How can the Bush administration be so incompetent as to expose
  Americans at
  home to dire risks by exhausting American resources in foolish foreign
  adventures? What kind of homeland security is this?
 
  All Bush has achieved by invading Iraq is to kill and wound thousands
  of
  people while destroying America's reputation. The only beneficiaries
  are oil
  companies capitalizing on a good excuse to jack up the price of
  gasoline and
  Osama bin Laden's recruitment.
 
  What we have is a Republican war for oil company

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Frantz DESPREZ

France must be punished
   Condie RICE
:-)
frantz

On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:

OK .. well .. history

New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called  
the
Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of  
trade.

But really only a port that sent goods to another land.

New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a  
population
of free black.

It also needs to be understood that the majority of those free black  
were
from a line of freed slaves (women) who were the contract purchased
mistresses of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their
offspring .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers  
conducting
negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible
contract to ensure their future wealth.

The whiter the skin the more desirable.

Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having  
children
fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there  
..
these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head
scarves.

I have a thing about head scarves!!

.. and .. no .. my ethnic background is  
German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a
bit of Swedish (as if a bit of anything could fit in there).

The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of
neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for  
his
contract acquired (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual
contracts .. and even if the the gentleman grew tired of his  
mistress ..
the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was  
in the
name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.

If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with  
another
woman.

New Orleans wasn't a planned neighborhood .. but historically, it  
has gain
a certain reputation of being a great place to party.

Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business
follows.

The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the  
population ..
the businesses .. and the party.

.. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the
French .. a large percentage of the free black disappeared (sold  
north)
and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Greetings,
I am sorry if I took your comment the wrong way.  I am just trying to share 
alternatives.  You are correct, there is no one size fits all in the health 
department, since our genealogy has lots to do with what will work for us

At 06:47 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
Kim , my apologies if my position was taken as ridicule, there was no such 
intent.  All I am trying
to do is point out all the variables in any health decision, particularly 
when someone makes a
blanket statement such as A is good, B is bad.



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Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: OpAmp Active Filter Synthesis

2005-09-02 Thread Brian Rodgers

Hi Mike
So would I.
Did you?
The filter has less to do with sine wave synthesis and more to do
with ensuring a clean signal.
Of course, this is basic electronics.
Which is probably why Kirk said it is very lossy. To turn away a
signal is in itself loss unless you have some way to feed it back
after massaging it.
Do you have access to an oscilloscope?
Check out the wave shape coming out of a cheap battery backup used for
small computers.
Compare it to the wave shape of grid AC.
Can you see the difference?
 There is also the added bonus of creating/using  more primitive
signal generators without sacrificing quality since the filter will
reject unwanted signals.
Why are you using primitive electronics?
OK Soare you going to explain why or just leave me hangin'? Mike
You haven't the foggiest idea why I said you were hanging?
Hmmm.
I am trying to help.
Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost

Taryn,

You must admit that he killed many more in Iraq for the money,
he is responsible for those death also, maybe he call that
efficiency instead. More killed for the money. I can guarantee
that the pictures of devastated people that we now see from
Orleans, have been going on for many years in Iraq. So it is
not only Bush fault, he only raised the bar and achieved much
more in shorter time frame.

When media show the desperation among the Iraqi people, it
is not many who cares, maybe Orleans will create more of
compassion for the country that US occupy. The homes that
are destroyed and people killed in Iraq, are 100's times more
than Orleans.

Hakan

Ah, Hakan, thankyou for saying so, I agree, I believe many others 
here do too though they haven't said so.

Maybe we're now in danger of being accused of not caring about New 
Orleans, like you can still get accused of not caring about the 
victims of 9/11 if you try to put it in perspective (especially in 
the perspective of Iraq and Afghanistan!).

We could do other counts. We could count the messages about New 
Orleans and Katrina so far and compare them with the number of 
messages in the archives about the Asian tsunami, correlate it with 
death and damage data, and I could add that there are at least as 
many Asians here as Americans. But we all know what the answer would 
be.

We could search the archives for discussion of the floods in 
Bangladesh that displaced 30 million of the world's poorest people 
last year. I wonder if we'd find any. I could find quite a few 
Bangladeshi list members though.

Maybe the Bangladeshi victims shouldn't have moved there in the first 
place, they only have themselves to blame? Maybe better planning 
would have helped them. Actually it wouldn't have told them that the 
mega-floods which come every ten years would be three years early 
this time and it wouldn't have helped them prevent it either, since 
much of the cause was that global warming had brought increased 
monsoon rainfall and sped up the melting of the Himalayan snows, 
which drain into Bangladesh. The main cause of that of course lies 
even further out of reach of Bangladeshi planners than the snows of 
the Himalayas do.

Bangladesh doesn't feature among the world's Top 10 greenhouse gas 
producers. There's no figure that I can find for the number of 
Bangladeshis per motor vehicle, probably because it's a meaninglessly 
large figure. It's right up there with Nepal at 200-plus or 
something, 200 plus any number you like. Bangladesh accounts for less 
than a fifth of its per-capita share of world energy consumption. 
Bangladeshis are responsible for 40 kg of CO2 emissions each per 
year, quite sustainable, like the rest of their eco-footprint. Most 
of the list members now following the Katrina/New Orleans threads are 
responsible for 5.5 tonnes of CO2 emissions each per year, wildly 
unsustainable like most of the rest of their eco-footprint and 137.5 
times as much as those of a Bangladeshi, while some of them, with 
computers, affordable Internet connections and time to spare, seem to 
be claiming they're not among the privileged and are at bottom of the 
heap.

Yes, it's fair enough to discuss emergency plans, but that hasn't 
really counted for much, while Bede's post and Terry Dyck's are among 
the few that have offered anything further, IMHO.

Think globally, act locally? It's a global list, with a worldwide and 
very diverse membership, and many list members have said how much 
they value both that and the kind of input that results from it.

So thankyou for a much-needed dose of reality and perspective, Hakan.

Best wishes

Keith



At 08:38 02/09/2005, you wrote:
 Wow, nice catch Bede, Fits right in with is there blame?
 
 I just love to blame stuff on Bush and his cronies. Except...I'm not
 sure that all the kings men could have put Orleans together again.
 
 Certainly, having pissed away the country's emergency resources, Bush
 is responsible for many of the deaths in La and Ms. Kinda like stupid
 kids who empty the fire extinguishers in school.  But I think Katrina,
 and years of head-in-the-sand development is what drowned Orleans.
 
 taryn
 http://ornae.com/
 
 On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Bede wrote:
 
  
   http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10062.htm
  
  
   How New Orleans Was Lost
  
   By Paul Craig Roberts
  
   09/01/05 Antiwar -- -- Chalk up the city of New Orleans as a cost of
   Bush's Iraq war.
  
   There were not enough helicopters to repair the breached levees and
   rescue
   people trapped by rising water. Nor are there enough Louisiana National
   Guardsmen available to help with rescue efforts and to patrol against
   looting.
  
   The situation is the same in Mississippi.
  
   The National Guard and helicopters are off on a fool's mission in Iraq.
  
   The National Guard is in Iraq because fanatical neoconservatives in
   the Bush
   administration were determined to invade the Middle East and because

Re: [Biofuel] Venezuela to Provide Discounted Heating Oil and Free Eye Operat...

In a message dated 9/1/2005 10:04:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Good call Kirk;

Thats why I am setting up a non profit organization for making 
biofuel. http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca
Power to the people man. Lucky they left a loophole for us to jump through eh?

Joe

That sounds like a wonderful idea.
I have seen Mike's completely sealed reactor, and now you seem to have one.
Are these for sale to other states?
Are there blueprints or something?

How does someone who wants to copy you, get a processor big enough to do so?

Bearing in mind that I have yet to build my test processing system 
and still waiting for the answers to some other questions so it will 
be awhile.

Do you think I should re ask my questions, or wait a bit longer first?

I'm sure your patience will be rewarded.

Best wishes

Keith


But if it's doable, maybe I could start working on gathering a 
co-operative of interested people to work with.

Blessings
Johanna


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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

Hi all

Hi, Kim

I think that both HO and chlorine act as oxidizers, providing similar
sanitizing effects, but I'm awfully rusty. Oh! Accidental pun, my
favorite kind!

And here in florida they use copper compounds to reduce algae growth in
slow moving waters. As I seem to recall people tossing a few pennies in
their mood fountains to keep the water clear.

Sorry to hear about your allergies. I take a middle ground on lots of
organic/synthetic issues but I've friends who've become wildly
sensitized.

It's a worldwide scourge.

Regarding silver, probably better to get colloidal silver, make sure 
it's high quality and don't try to make it yourself, you folks 
already have one blue senator.

Grapefruit seed extract (organic source) is useful and effective.

Best wishes

Keith


Taryn


On Sep 1, 2005, at 7:04 PM, Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

  Greetings,
 
  I was suggesting an alternative for those whose health is of vital
  importance, to them.  I am fighting hard to prevent myself from
  becoming
  totally chemically sensitive, so I can still have a life.  Many of the
  things our government says are safe are responsible for people becoming
  like I am, allergic to everything.
 
  If it is too much bother to find out how to use alternatives, then so
  be
  it.  No need to ridicule the information.
 
  Bright Blessings,
  Kim
 
  At 05:39 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
  at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe?  At what
  concentration is
  chlorine bleach unsafe?
  also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what
  concentration is
  chlorine ineffective
  against what organisms?  viruses? bacteria? cryptosporidium? giradia?
  amoeba? nematodes? etc.
 
  darn, things can get complex in a hurry if you think about it.  sorry
 
 
 
  Garth  Kim Travis wrote:
  Greetings,
  Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water
  fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young
  girls and
  child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
  Bright Blessings,
  Kim
 
  At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
 
  Thanks for the info Emil.
  I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another
  thread.
  Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
  We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in
  an
  emergency.
  Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
  It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
  Better safe than sorry.
  Brian


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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

2005-09-02 Thread Brian Rodgers

This is better. 
I am isolated here for the long weekend at the ranch with no high
speed Internet (poor me, I know) no media either, but that is a
choice. Anyway, the Katrina thread was a bit much for me as I have no
idea what is happening down there on the Gulf Coast.It does sound
awful, but I have wonder if the media isn't making it look even worse
than it really is. Don't know, I am here not there.

Back to the silver  copper as oxidisers in water. I think that my
fear of stagnant water comes directly from my wife who has had
Legionnaires disease. She of course does not trust water older that a
few weeks. Coincidentally she has a teaching degree in biology and she
leans toward bleach. Of course bleaching our stored drinking water  is
out of the question. Yuk.
Then the idea of using hydrogen peroxide, it never occurred to me to
use it for anything except cleansing wounds. Once again you all get me
thinking more.
I will run these ideas by my gal. Thank you.
Brian Rodgers

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Greetings,
No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe 
that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander, 
then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children 
died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that 
every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like 
that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others 
to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that 
their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
  Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
  help themselves, just those who don't.


And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
all they could within their means?

An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
than Katrina. See  Hurricane Pam Exercise,
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm

I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?

As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out
of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and
stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made
decisions on the same basis.

A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb
as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government
welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such
rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.

Todd Swearingen



Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

 Greetings,
 
 I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
 people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick
 up the pieces?
 
 Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who
 don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were
 growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
 and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street that
 was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
 money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
 mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
 were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy.
 
 How about:  God helps those who help themselves?
 
 I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and
 others is out of line.
 
 And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
 people of Louisianna.
 
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 
 I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
 judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
 express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?




"Preparations can be made if you make the effort."

This thread is beginning to take on a "they" flavor. They were unprepared, lazy, foolish, etc.

I do everything I can to resist the urge to judge people. However, I exercise every freedom to judge other people's opinions and philosophies with every expectation that they reciprocate.

That said, I thinka statement like "Preparations can be made if you make the effort." is a generalization which is presumptuous, judgmental (in this context), lacksany informational value and is based completely on emotion.

MikeGreg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That's where you are wrong Todd.For many things I am still at the bottom of the heap, and freely admit it.For other things I have learned from other peoples mistakes, and admit tothat too.Other things I learned from my own mistakes, nothing wrong with that either.Simply put, I refuse to be a totaly hopeless victim and try to planaccordingly.I am on a budget just like many of those people. I have been stuck alonein a blizzard 4 days without any contact with the outside or food other than2 cans of soup and a few crackers that I had with me, so you can not saythat I haven't " been on a roof top ", and don't know what it's like.Preparations can be made if you make the effort.I made the effort, it can be done.There is always something that can be done.Greg H.___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread John Hayes

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:
 Greetings,
 No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  

I prefer Blaupunkt over Pioneer, but my friend prefers Aiwa. Anything is 
better than Sony.

Oh wait... nevermind.

;)

jh

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


"We never said that every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like that. However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves."

Being apologetic doesn't change the fact that these kinds of generalizationsexpress a kind of discrimination that, at best has no value and at worst becomes the seed for something worse.

MikeGarth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Greetings,No one but you has brought up any stereo types. If you honestly believe that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander, then enjoy your rose colored glasses. Most of us feel anger that children died because their parents would not heed warnings. We never said that every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like that. However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves. It is sad that their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.Bright Blessings,Kim___
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Re: [Biofuel] Bush's Obscene Tirades





Hi Fritz;

Yes not a lot of folks know about the mercury that leaches out when a
valley is flooded but it is also happening along the Mackenzie and
Athabaska and poisoning the Arctic Ocean.  I remember paddling in the
Gouin reservoir many moons ago and staring down through the quiet
depths at the flooded forest standing beneath my kayak.  It seemed like
I was flying over the forest and I thought it was very cool, but I
didn't know about the mercury at that time.  And just think
hydroelectricity is touted as being an environmentally sound renewable
resource. Now I laugh when I hear about people telling big fishing
stories about the area.  I wouldn't eat a bite of that fish! 
Speaking of fish I know the feeling about swimming against the
current.  But the salmon do it every year.  Don't give up the good
fight.  Remember the salmon!

Best regards
Joe

Fritz Friesinger wrote:

  
  
  
  Hey Joe,
  i always have been in fierce
opposition to the practice of Hydro Quebec!
  HQ is responsable for a big part on
our Waterpollution (Mercury) with their methodes of floating huge
landsites to build the Reservoirs! and there we do not jet mention the
Methangas this practic produces!
  but i start to get a bit tired of
swimming upstream!
F.F.
  - Original Message - 
  
From:
Joe Street 
To:
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent:
Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:50 PM
Subject:
Re: [Biofuel] Bush's Obscene Tirades


ROFLMAO how can you be on my side when your provincial government is
stealing power from Labrador and selling it to New York State??
And then to make it worse dumb Ontarians running thier air con dee full
blast in July are buying it back from the US at a premium..a
nuts.
OK never mind I don't want to get into that here.
Yes it would be boomerang as you put it.

J

Fritz Friesinger wrote:

  
  
  Hello Joe,
  i am on your side on this
one,the problem is only... is Antarctica holding so long the Ice and
if... doesnt the Yankees accelerate the meltdown even more
  so than it would be a Boomerang
idea
  Fritz from Quebec
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Joe Street 
To:
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent:
Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:46 AM
Subject:
Re: [Biofuel] Bush's Obscene Tirades


Now finally someone comes up with a REALLY good idea!  Ok I propose a
motion that the countries we swap should be the USA and Antartica.  The
US needs some cooling off and I think (and most Canadians would agree)
it would be cool to have penguins for neighbors anyways.  Now we just
have to find a way to rearrange the continents. Anyone to second that?

J

Mike Weaver wrote:

  Anyone want to swap countries for a few years?

Appal Energy wrote:

  
  
One long-time GOP political consultant who – for obvious reasons – asked 
not to be identified said he is advising his Republican Congressional 
candidates to keep their distance from Bush.

“We have to face the very real possibility that the President of the 
United States is loony tunes,” he says sadly. “That’s not good for my 
candidates, it’s not good for the party and it’s certainly not good for 
the country.”


Okay... Now how about telling the world something new?

Todd Swearingen

 



  Hello Brian



   

  
  
a friend sent me this. Keep in mind, it's from a liberal Web site. But
even if only part of it is true, it's still pretty scary.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7267.shtml

Bush's Obscene Tirades Rattle White House Aides
By DOUG THOMPSON
Aug 25, 2005, 06:19

While President George W. Bush travels around the country in a
last-ditch effort to sell his Iraq war, White House aides scramble
frantically behind the scenes to hide the dark mood of an increasingly
angry leader who unleashes obscenity-filled outbursts at anyone who
dares disagree with him.
  

 


  
  Nothing new, sorry to tell you, there were a few stories about it 
about a year ago. I suppose it's a year worse now! :-(

http://www.counterpunch.org/castro07302004.html
Fidel Castro: The Pathology of George Bush
Someone Should Give Lil' Caesar a Drink
July 30, 2004

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=33num=5141
Capitol Hill Blue: Bush Taking Anti-Depressants to Control Mood Swings
Jul 28, 2004, 08:09

http://www.infowars.com/print/Bush/bush_delusiona.htm
New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional
Capitol Hill Blue
Jun 17, 2004

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Sept04/Williamson0904.htm
(DV) Williamson: It Isn't God Who Is Crazy
September 4, 2004

http://www.newleftreview.net/NLR26301.shtml
ALEXANDER COCKBURN - THE YEAR OF SURRENDERING QUIETLY
September-October 2004

Castro's the best, IMNSHO (and "The Gods

Re: [Biofuel] rockets, turbines and compressed air..was..[DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like totry something...but first, your opinions (please).

2005-09-02 Thread Manzo, Emil

Interesting, I never tried mixing heated ingredients to make solid
rocket fuel for model engines. We used a specially shaped ram with wet
fuel, kind of like dough. You put in clay first to ram (press) the
nozzle at the bottom of the tube, then the fuel. When it hardened, there
would be a cone-shaped hollow up through the solid fuel. Worked good but
you couldn't get too long with the tube or it would explode in flight.
Read about the dangers and follow safety rules and you will likely
remain alive.

Regards,
Emil

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Alt.EnergyNetwork
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 5:26 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] rockets,turbines and compressed
air..was..[DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like totry something...but first,
your opinions (please).

Hi all,

I used to be fascinated by this stuff when I was a kid and 
used to do a lot of pyro with building solid fuel model rockets.
My friends and I would mix the materials on the kitchen stove
and pour the molten fuel into cardboard tubes to harden around
an cone shape at the bottom of the tube.
Once electronically launched on our pad they would shoot
up maybe a few hundred feet. That ended abruptly
when I smoke bombed my mothers kitchen once accidently when mixing
the ingredients!!

So, I had done a lot of reading on rockets, ram jets, scram jets, v1,
v2,s
etc. Really fun stuff. If memory serves me correctly, Hitler used
liquid paraffin and kerosene in the v2's. They were only designed to run
for several minutes in flight.  His scientists had also tried
liquid parrafin and alcohol.
One of the problems with these types of systems is that they used an
incredable
amount of fuel to operate for any length of time.

Many air tools operate on an air turbine or piston design. You only need
around 90psi
to start doing some worth while work and it wouldn't be too hard to
generate with wind
or solar. I have operated a model air motor on compressed air for about
20 minutes
with one of those tanks for tire fill ups @40 psi.
Sizing up such a system might be very interesting. 
I have often though about a home system of wind /solar generated
compressed air
for use to run a turbine when there is no sun or wind. I have to do a
lot more work on
the cost effectiveness of such a design and component sourcing for a
prototype
 but it is definately not that far fetched, unless I, or
someone else convinces me otherwise.

regards 
tallex




Alternate Energy Resource Network
  1000+ news sources-resources
 updated daily
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---Original Message---
 From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd
like to try something...but first, your opinions (please).
 Sent: 01 Sep '05 18:51
 
  Hi Doug. 400 mph...oops...just a minor detail. Of course you're
right.
  The SCRAM jet is the super-sonic version (supersonic combustion ram
  jet). I think the old German V1 (buzz-bomb) used a variation on the
  pulse jet that had a front-flap, allowing starting from a standing
stop
  using only the turbine. It was quite advanced for the time. My
vehicle
  will not be approaching 400mph any time soon...did I say hairbrained?
  
  Regards,
  Emil
  
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:02 PM
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd
like
  to try something...but first, your opinions (please).
  
  I seem to recall that the minimum airspeed for halfway reasonable
  efficiency with a ramjet is about 400 mph. Hiller once experimented
with
  a small helicopter powered by ramjets on the rotor tips. I don't
recall
  any mention of starting problems but I doubt it was easy.
  
  I believe that a fuel adaptable to forming a reasonably fine mist is
  needed for ramjets and gas turbines. Kerosene works and I believe the
  Germans used diesel fuel during the war.
  
  Doug Woodard
  St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
  
  On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Manzo, Emil wrote:
  
   Hi Joe, for no (very few) moving parts you need a ram-jet. Or as
some
   used to call a scram jet. It is essentially a pipe with a venturi
  and
   a fuel injector. It needs to have air flowing through it before
   ignition, like if it was attached to a glider or vehicle. Once
enough
   airspeed flows, the injector is activated and the fuel ignited
  producing
   thrust. I bet WVO would work for fuel :-). Another one of my
   hair-brained dreams
  
  
  
   Regards,
  
   Emil
  
   -Original Message-




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[Biofuel] Katrina, who's to blame



Greetings Keith,
I had to read you reply several times, for it to sink in. I am
having trouble believing that you could equate the comments being made
about New Orleans with people in Bangledesh. As you point out later
in your message, New Orleans is in one of the richest countries in the
world, where no one has to live in a dangerous area if they choose not
to. We have the wealth to move around, even the poorest of us,
given enough time. We have plenty of ways of being warned of a
coming disaster, we have so many things that the people of Bangledesh
don't have, that I don't see the two as equal.
As far as I have been able to find out, there were no long lines of
hitchhikers trying to leave New Orleans. And yes, I have talked to
people that got out. Katrina did visit me, but I was on the fringe
so no damage, just much need moisture. 
If the richest countries do such a poor job of protecting their people,
especially their children, then what kind of example do we set? I
have been through natural disasters in other places, but I have never
been angry with the people before. While I was in New Orleans, the
people told us about the city being a giant bath tub that would fill with
water, and laughed about it. The city was growing, not shrinking
even though they knew they were a disaster waiting to happen. There
are many factors that make this disaster very different from
others.
The human race needs to be much more responsible for their actions.
The wealthy among us need to be held even more responsible, since we have
a choice. And looking at it from a global view point, that is every
person in Canada and the US.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

snip
Maybe the Bangladeshi victims shouldn't have moved there in the
first 
place, they only have themselves to blame? Maybe better planning 
would have helped them. Actually it wouldn't have told them that the 
mega-floods which come every ten years would be three years early 
this time and it wouldn't have helped them prevent it either, since 
much of the cause was that global warming had brought increased 
monsoon rainfall and sped up the melting of the Himalayan snows, 
which drain into Bangladesh. The main cause of that of course lies 
even further out of reach of Bangladeshi planners than the snows of 
the Himalayas do.

Bangladesh doesn't feature among the world's Top 10 greenhouse gas 
producers. There's no figure that I can find for the number of 
Bangladeshis per motor vehicle, probably because it's a meaninglessly 
large figure. It's right up there with Nepal at 200-plus or 
something, 200 plus any number you like. Bangladesh accounts for less 
than a fifth of its per-capita share of world energy consumption. 
Bangladeshis are responsible for 40 kg of CO2 emissions each per 
year, quite sustainable, like the rest of their eco-footprint. Most 
of the list members now following the Katrina/New Orleans threads are 
responsible for 5.5 tonnes of CO2 emissions each per year, wildly 
unsustainable like most of the rest of their eco-footprint and 137.5 
times as much as those of a Bangladeshi, while some of them, with 
computers, affordable Internet connections and time to spare, seem to 
be claiming they're not among the privileged and are at bottom of the 
heap.

Yes, it's fair enough to discuss emergency plans, but that hasn't 
really counted for much, while Bede's post and Terry Dyck's are among 
the few that have offered anything further, IMHO.

Think globally, act locally? It's a global list, with a worldwide and 
very diverse membership, and many list members have said how much 
they value both that and the kind of input that results from it.

So thankyou for a much-needed dose of reality and perspective, Hakan.

Best wishes

Keith



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[Biofuel] A Girl Is Given an Adult Medicine and She Pays a Heavy Price

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_serzone001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000

A Girl Is Given an Adult Medicine and She Pays a Heavy Price
Serzone: Company hasn't published study of effect on children.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

Alissa Robinson, 18, looks out the front door of her family's 
Norwood, Ohio home while her parents Jimmie and Brenda enjoy a warm 
autumn afternoon on their front porch. Alissa underwent a liver 
transplant 3 years ago following complications while taking the 
anti-depressant drug Serzone.
BRIAN WALSKI / Los Angeles Times
 NORWOOD, Ohio--When a hospital psychiatrist prescribed an 
antidepressant called Serzone for their 15-year-old daughter, Jimmie 
and Brenda Robinson assumed it was safe.
 The episode in February 1997 haunts them--Alissa Robinson nearly 
died while taking Serzone. After suffering liver failure and 
undergoing a transplant, she now faces a lifetime of uncertain health 
and worry over how she will pay for her care.
 Serzone, it turns out, was not intended for children or 
adolescents, and the label said its safety and effectiveness have 
not been established among the young. However, when FDA officials 
approved Serzone in December 1994, they suspected its use would not 
be confined to adults.
 Since it is likely that [Serzone], once marketed, will be used 
in children and adolescents . . . we ask that you commit to 
conducting, subsequent to approval, studies in these populations in 
order to provide the safety and efficacy data needed to support such 
use, wrote an FDA administrator, Dr. Robert J. Temple, in a Nov. 7, 
1994, letter to Serzone's manufacturer, Bristol-Myers Squibb Co.
 The company agreed to conduct the research, among patients age 7 
to 17, and to report the results to the FDA. But nearly six years 
later, no results have been made public. Doctors may continue to 
lawfully prescribe it for any purpose they deem appropriate.
 A spokeswoman for Bristol-Myers said it hopes to report results 
to the FDA in the early part of 2002.
 In an interview at the family's home, Brenda Robinson said she 
was unaware that the FDA had not endorsed Serzone's use in 
adolescents.
 That comes as a big surprise, Brenda Robinson said. If it's 
an adult medicine, why did [the doctors] give it to her? . . . These 
drugs should be tested for the people they're going to be used in.
 Serzone has been an important drug for Bristol-Myers, generating 
sales of $1.1 billion through October, according to IMS Health, an 
information services company.
 Eighteen cases of liver failure involving Serzone patients were 
reported to the FDA from 1996 to June 2000. The product labeling was 
changed, subsequent to Alissa's use of Serzone, to note rare reports 
of liver . . . failure, in some cases leading to liver transplantion 
and/or death.
 According to an article coauthored by one of Alissa's physicians 
and published Feb. 16, 1999, in the Annals of Internal Medicine, 
Serzone was the most likely cause of her liver failure.
 For now, Alissa and her parents are left to wonder what her life 
might have been if she had not taken the drug.
 Brenda Robinson points to the maroon puke bucket, Alissa's 
constant companion in the spring of 1997. By Memorial Day weekend 
that year, three months after going on Serzone, Alissa was nauseated 
and vomiting twice or more daily, according to medical records and 
interviews. Her eyes and skin had yellowed, a sign of jaundice.
 When specialists at Children's Hospital Medical Center in 
Cincinnati admitted Alissa on June 12, they found she was suffering 
liver failure. Alissa was placed on a waiting list for a transplant. 
Amid the gantlet of tests and diagnostic procedures, Alissa's 
flowing, auburn hair was cut, her head shaven.
 That was the worst part, Brenda Robinson recalled. When she 
woke up bald . . . she went to pieces.
 The morning of June 14, Jimmie and Brenda said, one of the 
doctors told them that Alissa, by then in a coma, could die within 
days unless a donor organ came available. Brenda, an upbeat woman who 
works in the auditor's office at the local city hall, lived at her 
daughter's bedside.
 On June 16, Alissa underwent the transplant. She came this 
close to dying, Brenda recalled, struggling with her emotions at the 
memory.
 Alissa was reluctant to discuss the difficulties. But when an 
earlier portrait of her was brought to the family's kitchen table, 
she said evenly, That was in my pretty days.
 Alissa's father worries that no employer will offer her health 
insurance, that she will unable to pay for essential prescriptions 
and care. Just in the last year, Alissa was twice hospitalized: Three 
days because of a bug bite that became infected; more recently for 
surgery to repair a rupture in her transplant incision.
 It's destroyed her for life; it's destroyed us, said Jimmie 
Robinson, a machinist in this

Re: [Biofuel] Another use for glycerine

Probably the best source of good and reliable information on chemical 
pollution of all kinds is Rachel's.
http://www.rachel.org/

Rachel's Environment  Health News is excellent:

http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/index.cfm?St=1
Environmental Research Foundation - Rachel's Weekly

Try PANUPS/PANNA for pesticide info:

http://www.panna.org/
Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA)

http://www.panna.org/resources/resources.html
PANNA: Resource Library

Hook line and sinker eh Nancy? You won't manage to tar us so easily 
with either one brush or the other. Take John's advice, we're a lot 
more rigorous than you are. It's you who's swallowing it whole and 
it's the stuff of conspiracy theory, as John says - which, please, is 
NOT to say that there are no conspiracies, but it is to say that the 
uncritical and sloppy thinking of conspiracy theorists and the cloud 
of dust they invariably kick up makes serious investigation much more 
difficult and probably does more to help hide conspiracies than to 
reveal them.

As for the FDA, there's this, among much else:

How a New Policy Led to Seven Deadly Drugs
Los Angeles Times
Wednesday, December 20, 2000
Medicine: Once a wary watchdog, the Food and Drug Administration set 
out to become a partner of the pharmaceutical industry. Today, the 
public has more remedies, but some are proving lethal.

A good series of articles, no longer available online at the LA 
Times. The main story is now here:

http://www.drugawareness.org/Archives/Miscellaneous/122002Howanew.html

I'll post it in full along with the individual cases, which I don't 
think are online anywhere else, they might as well be here, and maybe 
it'll establish a sort of bottom line on the subject in the archives, 
which is a pretty good source already.

Best wishes

Keith



Nancy Canning wrote:
  So you guys are going to believe hook line and sinker all the bs FDA
  passes off. I am laughing so hard at your defending the FDA.

I'm not defending the FDA here (nice red herring/strawman btw) - I
just pointed out that the claim the FDA listed aspartame as a
neurotoxin is 100% flat out untrue.

The chemicals are bad schtick gets a little old after you've been on
this list for a while. We get it:

* chemicals are bad
* vaccines cause autism
* mercury leaches out of amalgam fillings
* fluoride is a comunist/NWO plot
* aspartame is poison
* neotame is worse
* rumsfeld and cheney are behind it all
* we're all just blind sheep that are pawns to the bigs
* natural is good
* raw is better

We're heard it all before.

Maybe you could do us all a favor and actually look in the archives
before you share next time. As Keith likes to point out, there is a
handy dandy link to the archives at the bottom of every message you get.

  The doctors and hospitals, insurance companies, and drug companies
  can't make any money of a healthy diet, vitamines, and herbal
  remedies.

  Why do you think that doctors across the country tried to ban
  aspartame before it was released?

Wait, now I'm confused. Are doctors trying to protect us or are they
trying to poison us to make money. Which side of this epic struggle are
they on? How am I to know if you can't even make up your mind in the
same post?


  WORLD ENVIRONMENTAL CONFERENCE  and the  MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS
  FOUNDATION OF D.A. ISSUING FOR COLLUSION WITH MONSANTO
 
  Article written by Nancy Markle  Ten FREE Cancer Reports
 
 
  I have spent several days lecturing at the WORLD ENVIRONMENTAL
  CONFERENCE on  ASPARTAME  marketed as NutraSweet, Equal, and
  Spoonful.   In the keynote address by the EPA, they announced that
  there was an epidemic of MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS  and  SYSTEMIC LUPUS, and
  they did not understand what toxin was causing this to be rampant
  across the United States.   I explained that I was there to lecture
  on exactly that subject.

Wow Nancy. That's really interesting, especially since:

a) Nancy Markle doesn't exist, or at least no one by that name is known
to do research on MS, lupus or aspartame.

In fact, the original source of the document you cut n' pasted is
originally from a Usenet posting in 1995 by Betty Martini that was
modified by an unknown person and attributed to the mythical Ms. Markle.

Searching groups.google.com will turn up postings from Ms. Martini as
far back as 1996.

b) Searching the EPA publication archive for World Environmental
Congress returns ZERO hits.

Go ahead and try it, I just did:

http://www.epa.gov/epahome/pubsearch.html

If the EPA gave the KEYNOTE talk at this WORLD conference, why doesn't
anything come up?

I guess the secret kabal got to them, eh?

  Analysis Shows Nearly 100% of Independent Research Finds Problems
  With Aspartame October 17, 1996

So which is it? 100%? less that 100%? This is sloppy emotional writing.

  An analysis of peer reviewed medical literature using MEDLINE and
  other databases was conducted by Ralph G. Walton, MD, Chairman, The
  Center for Behavioral Medicine, Professor of Clinical

[Biofuel] DURACT: Painkiller Posed Risk of Damage to Liver

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_duract001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000 |

DURACT:
Painkiller Posed Risk of Damage to Liver
  Drugmaker's lobbying won fine print instead of prominent warning.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 The FDA medical officers who reviewed a proposed painkiller 
called Duract saw the problem from the outset: Too many patients who 
took the pill in clinical trials suffered liver injury.
 It seems imprudent to open the doors to extensive use when 
there have been early warning signs, an FDA medical officer, Dr. 
John E. Hyde, wrote on July 31, 1996. He said the specialists 
reviewing Duract were concerned about the frequency and severity of 
the injuries reflected in patients' blood tests.
 Hyde and a colleague, Dr. Rudolph M. Widmark, concluded in 
another report: The [liver] toxicity is a significant concern with 
this drug.
 Believing that the risk increased the longer a patient remained 
on Duract, they sought to rid the label of any reference to long-term 
use. They also proposed a prominent black box warning regarding 
Duract's liver toxicity.
 This was not what the manufacturer, Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories, 
had in mind.
 They were unhappy with my review, Widmark said in an interview.
 In a market already stocked with more than 20 prescription and 
over-the-counter painkillers, a black box warning could turn off 
doctors and cripple sales.
 Wyeth-Ayerst took its case to Widmark's superiors. Widmark 
responded, in a memo dated Nov. 14, 1996, to the FDA drug center's 
No. 2 administrator, Dr. Murray M. Mac Lumpkin:
 The company would like a label that actually puts the onus on 
the prescribing physician because if severe and maybe fatal liver 
toxicity [occurs], the physician will be sued and will be found 
liable if he/she did not 'monitor' for liver damage. Wyeth-Ayerst 
will be in the clear, because 'it is in the label.' 
 Widmark added, I hope that this short memo will help you to 
make the right decision in this dispute.
 When the company rolled out Duract following the FDA's approval 
on July 15, 1997, there was no black box on the label. Securities 
analysts predicted that in four years Duract could yield annual sales 
topping $500 million.
 Beginning on the 135th line, the label's fine print informed 
doctors that Duract was recommended for generally less than 10 
days. The label also advised that, if a physician chooses to 
administer Duract for a longer duration, patients' liver functions 
should be checked after a month.
 Seven months after Duract's market launch, the FDA and 
Wyeth-Ayerst responded to reports of severe liver damage: A black box 
was added.
 The revised labeling also flatly warned doctors for the first 
time not to prescribe the drug for longer than 10 days.
 Patients using Duract for more than 10 days have developed 
jaundice, fulminant hepatitis and liver failure requiring 
transplants, the FDA said, announcing the label change.
 By the time Wyeth-Ayerst announced Duract's withdrawal on June 
22, 1998, the FDA had received 13 voluntarily filed reports of liver 
failure. The agency said that almost all of the cases occurred 
among patients who took the drug longer than 10 days.
 Widmark, an Austrian immigrant, said he believes that lives 
would have been saved if FDA administrators had stood behind his 
original recommendation for a black box warning.
 I personally think yes, Widmark said. They were more 
impressed with the company's consultants than they had confidence in 
their own reviewers. . . .
 Something is wrong and something should be done to avoid this 
in the future.
 Now 75, Widmark retired in December 1997 after spending 11 years 
with the FDA. He still works as a consultant to the pharmaceutical 
industry.
 The spokesman for Wyeth-Ayerst, Petkus, said the company's 
consultants made a case that there was no need for a black box, 
believing the recommendation to use Duract generally less than 10 
days was sufficient. The FDA's management, he said, agreed.
 In their May 1999 medical journal article, Woodcock and Lumpkin 
said the problems that emerged with Duract were unexpected, adding: 
Given the availability of other analgesics with a wider margin of 
safety than [Duract], the FDA believed that the risk from this 
product outweighed its benefits.
 In a written response to questions, Woodcock said, that if used 
short term, it was felt that Duract would not cause liver damage 
more often than certain other painkillers. She said the findings of 
potential danger, identified in advance by the agency's two medical 
officers, involved tests that do not always signal clinically 
important [liver] toxicity.
 By late 1998, the FDA had received voluntary reports citing 
Duract as a suspect in 68 deaths, including 17 that involved liver 
failure. During its one year on the market, Duract generated sales 
totaling $89.7

[Biofuel] LOTRONEX: Officer Foresaw Deadly Effects

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_lotronex001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000

LOTRONEX:
Officer Foresaw Deadly Effects
  Irritable bowel remedy pulled after reports of serious injuries.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 Agency officials agreed in July 1999 to conduct a fast-track 
medical review of Lotronex, a pill from Glaxo Wellcome Inc. intended 
to treat irritable bowel syndrome in women. To justify such 
accelerated review, the FDA must find that the targeted disease is 
serious.
 Irritable bowel syndrome can result in abdominal pain and 
frequent trips to the bathroom. But it neither maims nor kills people.
 An FDA medical officer, Dr. John R. Senior, discovered during 
the review that four Lotronex patients in clinical studies suffered a 
potentially life-threatening complication called ischemic colitis, 
which results from inadequate blood flow to the colon.
 Senior, a former pharmaceutical industry executive and a 
gastrointestinal specialist, knew the rarity of ischemic colitis: 
Some physicians can practice for decades without treating a single 
case.
 While some cases would be mild and reversible, Senior wrote, 
ischemic colitis can be catastrophic.
 Senior found other troubling results. He warned that 27% of the 
patients who took Lotronex in Glaxo's studies experienced 
constipation. He noted that not a single patient who took a placebo 
pill developed ischemic colitis and that only 5% of the placebo 
patients got constipated.
 Glaxo representatives denied that Lotronex had caused the cases 
of ischemic colitis and said any risks could be adequately managed. 
But Senior warned of the potential for Lotronex patients to suffer 
debilitating bowel injuries or death.
 If these were the risks, what were the potential benefits?
 FDA reviewers found that Lotronex improved symptoms in only 10% 
to 20% of the patients. Still, an FDA advisory committee, whose 
participants included a paid consultant to Glaxo, unanimously 
recommended approval. (The yes vote voiced by the Glaxo consultant, 
Dr. Arnold Wald of Pittsburgh, was invalid, agency officials say, 
because of his status as a temporary appointee.)
 The FDA had a choice: Withhold approval of Lotronex until Glaxo 
undertook a major safety study to assess the drug's link to ischemic 
colitis or approve the drug conditioned on a pledge by Glaxo to 
perform the study in the following year.
 Top FDA officials chose not wait. They approved Lotronex on Feb. 
9, 2000. The original labeling said that ischemic colitis had 
occurred infrequently in the clinical studies and that there was no 
way to predict which patient was at highest risk.
 It was Lotronex's first approval worldwide. Securities analysts 
estimated it would generate sales of up to $2 billion within five 
years.
 A spate of bowel injuries emerged quickly--consistent with Senior's fears.
 In June, the FDA's Woodcock embraced the crafting of a 
medication guide aimed at advising patients of Lotronex's risks. 
But the leaflets were not delivered to pharmacies until late 
September. Meanwhile, Woodcock's staff proposed a black box warning 
for Lotronex's label but retreated when Glaxo publicly opposed the 
idea.
 By October, 49 cases of ischemic colitis in Lotronex 
patients--including five deaths--had been reported to the FDA. 
Records show that no fewer than 91 patients were hospitalized, many 
with severe constipation. Several bowel surgeries, including the 
removal of a patient's colon, were performed.
 FDA officials who had backed the approval of Lotronex maintained 
their support for the drug into November, but staff epidemiologists 
pointed to the surgeries and deaths and the likelihood that those 
voluntarily reported events were a small fraction of the true scope 
of harm.
 They urged withdrawal.
 Glaxo and the FDA announced on Nov. 28 that Lotronex would be 
pulled from the U.S. market. At that point, Glaxo's promised study of 
the drug's link to ischemic colitis still had not enrolled a single 
patient.
 Asked why the FDA approved Lotronex, given the ischemic colitis 
risk, Woodcock indicated that her aides had believed Glaxo's view of 
the risk more than Senior's.
 At the [November 1999] advisory committee, the company proposed 
that these were [unsurprising] incidences of ischemic colitis, not 
causally related to drug, Woodcock said, adding: We can't not 
approve drugs because they have certain side effects; they're all 
going to have side effects. We have to determine, are they going to 
be adequately managed?
 In subsequent written comments, Woodcock noted that some 
patients complain when a drug they believe helps them is withdrawn.
 People who suffer from serious, life-limiting, or 
life-threatening illnesses have repeatedly and forcefully told the 
FDA that they are willing to take greater risks because of the nature 
of their illnesses, Woodcock told The Times.

[Biofuel] REZULIN: Fast-Track Approval and a Slow Withdrawal

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_rezulin001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000

REZULIN:
Fast-Track Approval and a Slow Withdrawal

  Diabetes drug stayed on the market a year after being listed among 
the most risky.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 Soon after Warner-Lambert Co. submitted the diabetes drug 
Rezulin for FDA review in the summer of 1996, the medical officer 
assigned to examine it began finding problems. Dr. John L. Gueriguian 
cited Rezulin's potential to harm the liver and the heart. He 
questioned its viability in lowering blood sugar for patients with 
adult-onset diabetes.

SPECIAL REPORT
Rezulin: Diabetes Drug in Question Gueriguian was stripped of the 
assignment in November 1996 after Warner-Lambert complained that he 
used intemperate language while discussing the drug. His medical 
review--recommending against approving Rezulin--was purged from 
agency files and withheld from an FDA advisory committee.
 Officials completed the review of Rezulin within six months and 
approved it in January 1997. Warner-Lambert's chief executive told 
investors he foresaw a billion-dollar blockbuster.
 By fall 1997, dozens of patients on Rezulin had been 
hospitalized and a handful of cases of sudden liver failure had been 
reported to the FDA.
 Those first cases prompted the removal of Rezulin from the 
market in Britain on Dec. 1, 1997--sparking an 18% drop in 
Warner-Lambert's stock on the New York Stock Exchange. But senior FDA 
officials stood behind Rezulin by embracing a series of incremental 
labeling changes.
 Two changes came in late 1997 and a third came in July 1998. 
Each change recommended the monitoring of patients' liver functions 
as a means of safeguarding against organ failure.
 In March 1999, a senior FDA epidemiologist, Dr. David J. Graham, 
warned that Rezulin was among the most dangerous drugs on the 
American market. He said that patient monitoring would not protect 
them from liver failure. Indeed, three patients who were monitored 
monthly in controlled studies, including one by the National 
Institutes of Health, suffered liver failure and died.
 The death of the patient . . . in [the] NIH study in May 1998 
provided strong evidence that Rezulin could not be used safely, Dr. 
Robert I. Misbin, an FDA medical officer, wrote in a July 3, 2000, 
letter to the House Energy and Commerce Committee.

 Rezulin had not been proved to save lives or to reduce the 
serious complications of adult-onset diabetes. A fourth label change 
was implemented in June 1999. But deaths and hospitalizations 
continued.
 The FDA announced on March 21 that Rezulin would be pulled from 
the market. By that time, the agency had tied 63 liver failure deaths 
to the drug. Reports filed with the agency through June 30 cited 
Rezulin as a suspect in a total of 391 deaths.
 Officials have never estimated how many Rezulin patients died of 
heart-related complications. As a condition of approval, the FDA had 
requested that Warner-Lambert perform a study of the drug's effect in 
heart-failure patients; the study was never completed.
 Before and after the withdrawal, FDA officials overstated 
Rezulin's scientifically proved benefits. For instance, agency 
ombudsman James Morrison wrote in June that Rezulin has been shown 
to reduce or delay long-term, serious effects of diabetes, including 
death. Asked the basis for this claim, FDA spokesman Laurence 
Bachorik said the comments were not intended as definitive 
scientific observations.
 Six specialists who were involved in Rezulin's approval recently 
questioned why the drug was given a fast-track review. A Lessons 
Learned report posted in November on the agency's Web site said: A 
final major concern of the subjects interviewed . . . was the lack of 
adequate time to review the application.
 Woodcock said agency specialists had hoped Rezulin would offer 
significant improvement over the nine or more existing treatments 
for adult-onset diabetes. As for the decisions that kept Rezulin on 
the market, Woodcock said she wanted first to see if two newer drugs 
approved in 1999 were less toxic to the liver. Gueriguian said 
Rezulin is an example of how senior FDA officials relied on a 
company's hopes at the expense of public health.
 It really doesn't matter if it was incompetence or dishonesty, 
he said. The result is the same: People died unnecessarily.
 Rezulin generated sales totaling $2.1 billion for Warner-Lambert 
in its three years on the U.S. market.

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[Biofuel] Risk Was Known as FDA OKd Fatal Drug

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/rezulin/
Los Angeles Times Special Reports: Rezulin
Sunday, March 11, 2001

Risk Was Known as FDA OKd Fatal Drug
Study: New documents show Warner-Lambert trivialized liver toxicity 
of diabetes pill Rezulin while seeking federal approval. Inside help 
from senior regulators is trumpeted in company memos.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 WASHINGTON--Executives of the Warner-Lambert Co. brimmed with 
confidence as they marched the now-discredited diabetes pill Rezulin 
toward government approval in the mid-1990s. And with good reason, 
according to newly obtained company and government documents.
 As portrayed in the records, officials of the Food and Drug 
Administration provided Warner-Lambert with inside information and 
favors at critical moments throughout the development and marketing 
of Rezulin. At least one senior manager believed that if an FDA 
medical officer who had questioned the drug's safety and 
effectiveness didn't please the company, he would be out. Soon 
enough, he was, prompting another executive to report internally that 
a hurdle had been cleared for Rezulin.
 The records also shed new light on the state of knowledge within 
Warner-Lambert of Rezulin's potential danger: Executives knew that 
patients who took the drug in clinical studies had suffered 
life-threatening liver damage--yet the company assured an FDA panel 
that the risk was trivial.
 The company's assurances helped win swift approval for Rezulin 
four years ago from the FDA. The drug was withdrawn in March of last 
year after being cited as the suspect in 391 deaths, including 63 
that involved liver failure. Rezulin generated sales of $2.1 billion.
 The new documents, which have been kept from public view by 
court orders or by the FDA, were obtained by The Times. The internal 
memos and e-mails provide an intimate view of how a company seeking a 
blockbuster drug collaborated closely with the public health agency 
responsible for ensuring that medicines are proved safe and effective.
 The FDA's collaborative role with Warner-Lambert began at the 
same time that the agency was being urged by Congress and the White 
House to function less as an adversary and more as a partner of the 
$100-billion pharmaceutical industry.
 This transformation of the FDA, first evident in the streamlined 
approvals of experimental AIDS drugs, opened a regulatory door. 
Pharmaceutical companies pushed for similarly rapid consideration of 
a wide range of remedies, regardless of whether the products offered 
lifesaving benefits.
 In Rezulin, the FDA was faced with a drug that had not been 
proved to save lives or to reduce the serious complications of 
adult-onset diabetes.
 It was against this backdrop that Warner-Lambert's vice 
president for diabetes research, Dr. Randall W. Whitcomb, told an FDA 
advisory committee on Dec. 11, 1996, that occurrences of liver injury 
among Rezulin patients were comparable to placebo in the clinical 
studies. In fact, the incidence among patients who took the drug was 
well over three times higher than for those given placebo pills.
 Among those patients who took Rezulin, 2.2% experienced liver 
injury, compared with 0.6% for those who took the placebo.
 In a recent sworn deposition for lawsuits brought by plaintiffs 
from Texas, Missouri and West Virginia, Whitcomb defended his earlier 
characterizations.
  'Comparable' is, is, you know, is an interesting word, 
Whitcomb testified. Is 2.2% different than 0.6%? . . . I think you 
could look at 2.2 and 0.6 and say that those are similar numbers, you 
know, when you look at this now. I mean, 'similar' is a--is a very 
broad term. . . . I don't think that these numbers are, are all that 
different.

 Liver Monitoring Label Is Abandoned
 But the newly obtained documents reveal that concern about liver 
toxicity within Warner-Lambert was such that the company prepared a 
label for the drug in 1996 recommending that patients should be 
monitored at 3 months then every 6 months.
 The company abandoned the recommendation for liver monitoring 
before seeking the FDA advisory committee's endorsement in December 
1996. Such a condition would have drastically reduced Rezulin's sales 
potential, according to doctors who point out that at least nine 
other less-risky diabetes drugs were available.
 Warner-Lambert did not publicly recommend liver monitoring for 
Rezulin patients until late October 1997--and then only after the 
first reported liver-failure deaths among those who were prescribed 
the drug.
 Warner-Lambert executives have said in the past that they did 
not see the need earlier for monitoring because no patient suffered 
liver failure in the original clinical studies.
 Whitcomb, 46, who was Warner-Lambert's chief medical proponent 
of Rezulin from 1993 to 2000, is now a part-time consultant to Pfizer 
Inc., which acquired Warner-Lambert

[Biofuel] A Long-Feared Drug Gets the Green Light

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_thal001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000

A Long-Feared Drug Gets the Green Light
  Thalidomide: Approved to treat just leprosy, its alleged promotion 
as treatment for cancer draws sharp criticism.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 WASHINGTON--On Sept. 5, 1997, a Food and Drug Administration 
panel met to ponder the once-imponderable: Should thalidomide be 
approved in the United States?
 Decades earlier, the pill's use abroad as a nighttime sedative 
by expectant mothers had resulted in the gruesome disfiguring of 
thousands of newborns. The FDA medical officer responsible for 
keeping thalidomide off the U.S. market, Dr. Frances O. Kelsey, was 
honored as a national hero in 1962 by President Kennedy.
 Thirty-five years later, the Celgene Corp. was seeking FDA 
approval of thalidomide, ostensibly for an extremely narrow use: 
treating the complications of leprosy.
 The agency already allowed experimental use of the drug for 
leprosy and AIDS, and some of these patients saw improvements in skin 
growths or sores. But the drug's effectiveness remained unproven. A 
study published by the New England Journal of Medicine in May 1997 
found that some AIDS patients' underlying disease worsened on 
thalidomide, compared with those who took a placebo.
 Unlike at most advisory meetings, the top administrators at the 
FDA's drug-review center--Dr. Janet Woodcock and her deputy, Dr. 
Murray M. Mac Lumpkin, took seats at the U-shaped conference table. 
Agency administrators had encouraged Celgene in 1995 to test 
thalidomide's potential, following interest and illicit distribution 
of the drug among AIDS patients.
 None of the three FDA medical officers who reviewed thalidomide 
supported approval. Drs. Kathryn O'Connell and Brenda Vaughan and 
their boss, Dr. Jonathan Wilkin, found that the studies submitted by 
Celgene failed to establish effectiveness or safety.
 Wilkin, director of the dermatology drugs division, worried that 
Celgene would seek a far broader market for thalidomide. Once a 
company wins approval for a new drug, the compound may be prescribed 
lawfully for any medical purpose.
 If there are two dozen new patients a year that are going to be 
using thalidomide for [leprosy], then that hardly seems to me to be a 
profitable market, Wilkin told the FDA's Dermatologic and Ophthalmic 
Drugs Advisory Committee. So, the question is where is this really 
leading? I think that off-label use is where the vast majority of the 
use would occur. It would dwarf actually the use for leprosy.
 Wilkin decried the absence of any scientifically acceptable 
study supporting Celgene's application. He warned of the drug's 
capacity to severely damage white blood cells and the central nervous 
system, including among AIDS patients. Wilkin flatly told the 
advisory committee that thalidomide was not approvable.
 Just as Wilkin finished speaking, Lumpkin raised his left hand 
to be recognized.
 I just don't want there to be any misunderstanding within the 
public that what you've heard is, quote unquote, the agency's 
recommendation, he said, adding: What the primary reviewer, what 
the secondary reviewer, what the division director have done is given 
us their opinions and that's part of the equation. . . . They are not 
the deciding officials.
 The advisory committee voted 8 to 1 that the benefits of 
thalidomide outweighed the risks. On July 16, 1998, the agency 
approved thalidomide, declaring it will be among the most tightly 
restricted drugs ever marketed.
 At Celgene, the top executive credited Woodcock and Lumpkin for 
trumping the presentations of division director Wilkin, and medical 
officers O'Connell and Vaughan.
 Certainly there was a lot of concern on our part that in the 
end the FDA would decide not to approve thalidomide based on some of 
those presentations, said John W. Jackson, company chairman and 
chief executive officer. However, we were confident that the senior 
people at the FDA had encouraged us. . . . They felt that it should 
get approved and be on the market.
 Jackson added: They felt . . . there was a need for this drug 
in the AIDS community.
 Celgene from the outset promoted thalidomide for purposes having 
nothing to do with leprosy, including the treatment of various 
cancers, officials later alleged. On July 30, 1998--just two weeks 
after thalidomide had been approved--officials working in the FDA's 
drug-marketing office contacted Celgene and expressed concern about 
the company's promotion of thalidomide for uses other than the 
narrow, approved treatment of leprosy.
 On April 21, 2000, the director of the marketing office, Thomas 
W. Abrams, wrote to Celgene's Jackson, alleging that the company is 
demonstrating a continuing pattern and practice of violative 
behavior. Abrams added: Celgene's actions are particularly 
troublesome. . . . Perhaps more

[Biofuel] How a New Policy Led to Seven Deadly Drugs

http://www.drugawareness.org/Archives/Miscellaneous/122002Howanew.html
How a New Policy Led to Seven Deadly Drugs

Los Angeles Times

Wednesday, December 20, 2000

How a New Policy Led to Seven Deadly Drugs
  Medicine: Once a wary watchdog, the Food and Drug Administration set 
out to become a partner of the pharmaceutical industry. Today, the 
public has more remedies, but some are proving lethal.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 WASHINGTON--For most of its history, the United States Food and 
Drug Administration approved new prescription medicines at a grudging 
pace, paying daily homage to the physician's creed, First, do no 
harm.
 Then in the early 1990s, the demand for AIDS drugs changed the 
political climate. Congress told the FDA to work closely with 
pharmaceutical firms in getting new medicines to market more swiftly. 
President Clinton urged FDA leaders to trust industry as partners, 
not adversaries.

Dr. Janet Woodcock, director of the FDA's drug-review center, says 
the agency depends on doctors to take into account the risks, to 
read the label. ... That's why drugs are prescription drugs.
BRIAN WALSKI / Los Angeles Times
 The FDA achieved its new goals, but now the human cost is becoming clear.
 Seven drugs approved since 1993 have been withdrawn after 
reports of deaths and severe side effects. A two-year Los Angeles 
Times investigation has found that the FDA approved each of those 
drugs while disregarding danger signs or blunt warnings from its own 
specialists. Then, after receiving reports of significant harm to 
patients, the agency was slow to seek withdrawals.
 According to adverse-event reports filed with the FDA, the 
seven drugs were cited as suspects in 1,002 deaths. Because the 
deaths are reported by doctors, hospitals and others on a voluntary 
basis, the true number of fatalities could be far higher, according 
to epidemiologists.
 An adverse-event report does not prove that a drug caused a 
death; other factors, such as preexisting disease, could play a role. 
But the reports are regarded by public health officials as the most 
reliable early warnings of danger.
 The FDA's performance was tracked through an examination of 
thousands of pages of government documents, other data obtained under 
the Freedom of Information Act and interviews with more than 60 
present and former agency officials.
 The seven drugs were not needed to save lives. One was for 
heartburn. Another was a diet pill. A third was a painkiller. All 
told, six of the medicines were never proved to offer lifesaving 
benefits, and the seventh, an antibiotic, was ultimately judged 
unnecessary because other, safer antibiotics were available.
 The seven are among hundreds of new drugs approved since 1993, a 
period during which the FDA has become known more for its speed than 
its caution. In 1988, only 4% of new drugs introduced into the world 
market were approved first by the FDA. In 1998, the FDA's 
first-in-the-world approvals spiked to 66%.

Video: Willman reacts to receiving the Pulitzer Prize for this report.
Real | Quicktime
 The drug companies' batting average in getting new drugs 
approved also climbed. By the end of the 1990s, the FDA was approving 
more than 80% of the industry's applications for new products, 
compared with about 60% at the beginning of the decade.
 And the companies have prospered: The seven unsuccessful drugs 
alone generated U.S. sales exceeding $5 billion before they were 
withdrawn.
 Once the world's unrivaled safety leader, the FDA was the last 
to withdraw several new drugs in the late 1990s that were banned by 
health authorities in Europe.
 This track record is totally unacceptable, said Dr. Curt D. 
Furberg, a professor of public health sciences at Wake Forest 
University. The patients are the ones paying the price. They're the 
ones developing all the side effects, fatal and non-fatal. Someone 
has to speak up for them.
 The FDA's faster and more lenient approach helped supply 
pharmacy shelves with scores of new remedies. But it has also yielded 
these fatal missteps, according to the documents and interviews:
 * Only 10 months ago, FDA administrators dismissed one of its 
medical officer's emphatic warnings and approved Lotronex, a drug for 
treating irritable bowel syndrome. Lotronex has been linked to five 
deaths, the removal of a patient's colon and other bowel surgeries. 
It was pulled off the market on Nov. 28.
 * The diet pill Redux, approved in April 1996 despite an 
advisory committee's vote against it, was withdrawn in September 1997 
after heart-valve damage was detected in patients put on the drug. 
The FDA later received reports identifying Redux as a suspect in 123 
deaths.
 * The antibiotic Raxar was approved in November 1997 in the face 
of evidence that it may have caused several fatal heart-rhythm 
disruptions in clinical studies. FDA officials chose to exclude any

[Biofuel] REDUX: Unheeded Warnings on Lethal Diet Pill

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_redux001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000 |

REDUX:
Unheeded Warnings on Lethal Diet Pill
  Heart damage causes billions of dollars in potential legal liability.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

Dr. Leo Lutwak was the lead FDA medical officer reviewing the diet 
drug Redux, which in one pill approximated half of the slimming 
cocktail known as fen-phen. He said he resisted its approval.
BRIAN WALSKI / Los Angeles Times
 Before coming to the FDA as a medical officer in 1989, Dr. Leo 
Lutwak had specialized in the fields of obesity and osteoporosis as a 
Cornell University professor, as a drug company consultant and as a 
practicing physician. He said he hired on at the FDA because he 
relished the scientific challenge of new drugs and the call of public 
service.
 In 1995, Lutwak was the lead FDA medical officer reviewing the 
diet drug Redux, which in one pill approximated half of the 
now-infamous slimming cocktail known as fen-phen.
 Both Lutwak and his boss, Dr. Solomon Sobel, told The Times that 
they resisted the approval of Redux.
 I, as the primary reviewer, felt that the drug had low 
effectiveness and very high risk for neurotoxicity and pulmonary 
hypertension, a disorder that damages the respiratory system, Lutwak 
said.
 I was insisting on a black box, he added, referring to the 
bold border at the top of a prescription label that alerts doctors 
and patients to severe life-threatening risk. But the management 
accepted the company's arguments against the black box. And I don't 
know why.
 Sobel, director of the FDA's endocrine and metabolic drugs 
division throughout the 1990s and who remains at the agency, was 
concerned that Redux did not work. He said he refused to sign the 
agency's formal letter of approval.
 Well let me tell you, Sobel said. I was supposed to sign off 
on that letter. . . . I told [an FDA administrator, Dr. James] 
Bilstad that I would not sign on it. If he wanted to approve it, he 
should sign on it. And the record shows, he's the one who signed on 
it.
 How Redux came to be approved in April 1996 remains a curiosity.
 After an FDA advisory committee voted, 5 to 3, that evidence of 
Redux's safety was not sufficient to warrant approval, Bilstad took 
the unusual step of scheduling a second meeting, just two months 
later. At that meeting, in November 1995, the committee voted, 6 to 
5, to recommend approval.
 Lutwak said he was shocked by the scheduling of the second meeting.
 Much was riding on Redux. Analysts at one securities firm, 
Rodman  Renshaw, estimated the drug would gross $1.8 billion within 
four years.
 But Redux was withdrawn on Sept. 15, 1997, after heart valve 
damage was detected in patients put on the drug. Civil lawsuits that 
are now pending also allege that Redux caused the potentially fatal 
respiratory disorder that had worried Lutwak.
 American Home Products Corp., which marketed Redux and Pondimin, 
a diet pill that was used widely in formulations of fen-phen, agreed 
last fall to pay or set aside $4.75 billion to settle lawsuits 
related to the drugs' potential to cause heart valve damage. The 
company more recently has set aside up to an additional $4.75 billion 
to pay other patients who have suffered from the respiratory 
condition or heart valve damage.
 We are aggressively settling as many cases as we can, said 
Douglas Petkus, a spokesman for Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories Inc., a 
subsidiary of American Home.
 In its one year on the market, Redux generated sales of $255.3 
million. The FDA received reports before and after the withdrawal 
that cited Redux as a suspect in 123 deaths.
 Bilstad, who left the FDA in January, declined to be interviewed 
this fall when reached at his home.
 In a written statement, Woodcock acknowledged that the 
possibility of including a black box warning on Redux's label was 
discussed with Wyeth-Ayerst. But, she said, FDA officials decided it 
was not warranted. She said that the drug's potential respiratory 
risk was noted within the labeling in bold type. Before Redux went on 
the market, Woodcock said, there was no hint that it would cause 
heart valve damage.
 Lutwak, now 72, said he regrets the approval of Redux--and the 
agency's failure to insist on a black box warning.
 It might have saved lives, he said.

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[Biofuel] How Deaths Were Calculated

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_method001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000

How Deaths Were Calculated
 Reports of adverse drug reactions to the Food and Drug 
Administration are considered by public health officials to be the 
most reliable early warnings of a product's danger. The reports are 
filed to the FDA by health professionals, consumers and drug 
manufacturers. The Los Angeles Times inspected all reports filed in 
connection with seven drugs that were approved and withdrawn since 
1993. By hand and by computer, The Times counted 1,002 deaths in 
which the filer identified the drug as the leading suspect. Since 
fall 1997, this top category has been termed primary suspect. The 
Times did not count any death in which the drug was identified as the 
secondary suspect or less. The methodology and results were 
reviewed by Sheila R. Weiss, a former FDA epidemiologist who is an 
assistant professor at the University of Maryland's department of 
pharmacy practice and sciences.


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[Biofuel] POSICOR: 143 Sudden Deaths Did Not Stop Approval

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_posicor001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000 |

POSICOR:
143 Sudden Deaths Did Not Stop Approval
  With study results kept secret, nation got another blood-pressure drug.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 Senior FDA officials with the power to approve new drugs were 
warned in advance about the dangers of Posicor, a pill for high blood 
pressure and symptomatic chest pain.

MUTED WARNING
Taking Posicor with certain other drugs posed a danger for heart 
rhythm disturbances. The clinical studies of Posicor cast a 
shadow of potential risk for serious arrhythmias, FDA medical team 
leader Dr. Shaw T. Chen wrote on Dec. 18, 1996. The data in hand also 
showed Posicor would interact with certain other drugs, posing 
potentially severe risk.
 A 70-year-old man suffered sudden death in one study of 
Posicor's effect on chest pain. The senior FDA officials also were 
told of sudden deaths in 142 other patients who took either Posicor 
or a placebo in an ongoing study focused on congestive heart failure. 
However, details from the 2,400-patient study remained sealed because 
the manufacturer opposed breaking the experiment's confidentiality 
until it was finished.
 This left the FDA officials a choice: Wait a year or more, or 
approve Posicor without knowing the details.
 I sure don't feel good about what I've seen, said Dr. Lemuel 
A. Moye, a member of the FDA's Cardiovascular and Renal Drugs 
Advisory Committee that met on Feb. 28, 1997. Moye, a physician and 
biostatistician at the University of Texas, suggested it would be 
prudent to delay judgment until the study's results were unsealed. 
I'm afraid that we are rushing into this.
 According to a transcript of the meeting, Moye voiced concern 
about Posicor's effect on heart rhythm and its potential to interact 
with other compounds. Patients will be taking this in fairly 
uncontrolled situations in combinations of drugs which have 
ramifications yet unknown, he said.
 Another committee member, Dr. Robert Califf, professor of 
medicine at Duke University, said: If this [drug] was really 
something that was dramatically different, better than anything else 
in the way of relieving symptoms, then I would look at it 
differently. But given the fact there are a lot of other effective 
therapies out there, why not be safe with the public?
 Indeed, scores of other drugs for treating high blood pressure 
were already on the market, and Posicor was not proved to offer 
lifesaving benefit.
 The drug's manufacturer, New Jersey-based Hoffman-La Roche Inc., 
saw no need to delay.
 There is no signal that there is arrhythmic or potentially 
arrhythmic risk with the drug, said Roche's Dr. Isaac Kobrin, 
terming the sudden deaths of four patients in another study a chance 
finding.
 The committee voted, 5 to 3, to recommend approval of Posicor, 
with Califf and Moye in the minority.
 After presiding over the five-hour discussion, the committee 
chairman, Dr. Barry M. Massie of San Francisco, abstained from voting 
amid a financial conflict: Massie was a co-investigator in Roche's 
ongoing study of Posicor. After that meeting, Roche hired him as a 
speaker for the drug, Massie acknowledges.
 On June 20, 1997, the FDA approved Posicor.
 Four days later, a Roche news release quoted Massie to buttress 
the company's claim that the incidence of side effects was low 
during clinical studies of Posicor.
 Asked about this sequence of events, Massie said, You do wonder 
how the world would perceive it. I'm glad I didn't vote, let's put it 
that way.
 Doctors were cautioned in speck-sized type--beginning on the 
278th line of the drug's label and again on the 365th about 
prescribing Posicor in combination with various medications, 
including allergy pills, tranquilizers, a sleeping pill and the 
heartburn drug Propulsid.
 Authorities in Sweden in mid-1997 saw sufficient danger to keep 
Posicor off the market. But the U.S. approval spurred high hopes for 
Roche. Analysts at one brokerage firm, Salomon Smith Barney, 
projected sales of $2.9 billion within four years.
 Six months after approving Posicor, the FDA advised doctors of 
the pill's life-threatening danger. The agency announced that it 
had received reports of dangerously lowered heart rates in about 20 
patients. Roche agreed to a label change--advising that Posicor 
should not be taken in combination with cholesterol-lowering drugs. 
This brought to 26 the number of drugs that doctors were warned not 
to prescribe with Posicor.
 On June 8, 1998, Roche announced Posicor's withdrawal, citing 
evolving information concerning the potential for drug interactions 
and preliminary results from the ongoing heart failure study that 
had drawn the attention of the advisory committee.
 The study, Roche said, showed that the patients gained no 
overall benefit from Posicor.
 According to those

[Biofuel] FDA Minimized Issue of Lotronex's Safety

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/updates2/lat_lotronex001102.htm
Thursday, November 2, 2000

FDA Minimized Issue of Lotronex's Safety
  Health: Times study finds officials sided with drug maker on 
regulatory concerns. Agency reevaluation is underway.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 WASHINGTON--In the drug's first eight months on the market, five 
people who took it died. Several others underwent bowel 
surgeries--one had a colon removed. A total of 49 patients developed 
ischemic colitis, a potentially life-threatening complication.
 As a result, the Food and Drug Administration is now 
reevaluating the safety of Lotronex, a drug intended to treat women 
with a nonfatal disorder, irritable bowel syndrome. But a Los Angeles 
Times investigation of the FDA's handling of Lotronex found that over 
the last year agency officials repeatedly played down questions about 
the drug's safety while siding with the manufacturer, Glaxo Wellcome 
Inc., in important regulatory decisions.
 The FDA officials disregarded the significance of concerns 
raised by an agency medical officer who examined the drug before its 
approval. They chose a paid consultant to Glaxo to serve with an 
advisory committee that recommended approval of the drug. They agreed 
with Glaxo not to place a highly visible black-box warning on the 
label of Lotronex. Rather than wait for Glaxo to conduct a major new 
study of the drug's link to ischemic colitis, the agency approved the 
pill on a condition that the study would take place after the drug 
entered the market. The study has yet to begin.
 And for the last several months, the officials have declined, in 
the face of data gathered by FDA epidemiologists, to seek withdrawal 
of the drug.
 The FDA's handling of Lotronex is the latest example of how the 
pressure to get new drugs to market can clash with the agency's 
mandate to protect public health and safety. Since 1993, the agency 
has dramatically stepped up approvals of new drugs submitted by the 
$100-billion pharmaceutical industry, with fortunes rising or falling 
on sales of a single medication.
 In the last three years, the FDA has been forced to withdraw 
nine drugs from the market after reports of deaths and injuries 
linked to the compounds.
 An FDA administrator, Dr. Florence Houn, on Wednesday defended 
the agency's decisions on Lotronex but added, FDA is concerned about 
the serious adverse event reports of ischemic colitis and severe 
constipation associated with Lotronex. When the agency approved 
Lotronex, Houn said, officials suspected that the ischemic colitis 
seen with the drug was nonfatal and reversible.

 3 Deaths Not Linked to Drug, Firm Says
 A representative of Glaxo, Dr. Allen Mangel, said the company 
has investigated three of the five deaths and believes those events 
were not caused by Lotronex. Mangel said Glaxo has not been able to 
adequately probe the remaining two deaths. He said the company will 
absolutely want to meet with the FDA very soon to discuss the drug's 
future.
 As for Glaxo's pledge to launch the major new study regarding 
ischemic colitis and Lotronex, Mangel said the company and the FDA 
are still negotiating details of how to conduct the research. A 
spokeswoman for Glaxo, Ramona Dubose, said the company stands behind 
Lotronex.
 We have complete confidence in the safety profile of this 
drug, Dubose said. We believe that any risks can be managed.
 The FDA takes into account whether other treatments are 
available when deciding whether to approve or withdraw drugs. For 
irritable bowel, there are five drugs on the U.S. market, including 
Lotronex. Doctors say that none is effective at easing all symptoms 
of the disorder, which can include abdominal pain, diarrhea and 
constipation. However, a search by The Times of records maintained by 
the FDA since 1993 found that only Lotronex has been cited as the 
suspect in a case of ischemic colitis.
 It was last November when an FDA medical officer named John 
Senior tried to sound an alarm about Lotronex. Time was short. The 
FDA had agreed to conduct a fast-track review of Lotronex, on the 
basis that it would treat a serious disease. Dr. Senior, while 
stopping short of recommending rejection or approval of Lotronex, 
deplored Glaxo's approach to the safety concerns surrounding the drug.
 It is very disturbing that the applicant has chosen to downplay 
so strongly the important issue of constipation, induced commonly and 
predictably by [Lotronex], and has totally ignored the [problems] of 
ischemic colitis, Senior, a bowel specialist, wrote in his review.
 Senior identified four cases within Glaxo's clinical studies of 
ischemic colitis--the potentially lethal complication that results 
from inadequate blood flow to the colon. He noted that no patient 
taking a placebo had developed it.
 This finding represents a signal of a potentially serious 
problem, Senior warned

[Biofuel] RELENZA: Official Asks If One Day Less of Flu Is Worth It

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_relenza001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000

RELENZA:
Official Asks If One Day Less of Flu Is Worth It
  Still on the market, the drug has been linked to 22 deaths so far.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 Glaxo executives were steaming in early 1999 over the work of 
biostatistician Michael Elsahoff and other FDA reviewers who had 
examined the company's new flu drug, Relenza.
 The reviewers found that Relenza was no more effective than a 
placebo in treating common flu symptoms among American patients. The 
drug showed better results in foreign studies. But the reviewers also 
found that Relenza, a powdery inhalant, was potentially unsafe for 
flu patients with asthma or other respiratory disease.
 Relenza is not a vaccine. It is designed to be taken within two 
days of the onset of flu-like symptoms such as fever, cough, sore 
throat or headache. Relenza may reduce by about one day a patient's 
symptoms.
 The drug underwhelmed members of the FDA's Antiviral Drugs 
Advisory Committee. It voted, 13 to 4, on Feb. 24, 1999, to reject it.
 There isn't sufficient efficacy to warrant me recommending this 
drug for my family or myself, said Dr. John D. Hamilton, a professor 
of medicine at Duke University. Said another committee member, Dr. 
Sharilyn Stanley of the Texas Health Department: I have significant 
concerns.
 Glaxo reacted quickly.
 Dr. James Palmer, the company's director of medical, regulatory 
and product strategy, told an FDA administrator in a March 2, 1999, 
letter that the staff's position on Relenza is completely at odds 
with the will of Congress that drug development and approval proceed 
swiftly and surely. The letter was addressed to Dr. Heidi M. Jolson, 
director of the FDA's antiviral drugs division.
 The Glaxo executive accused the reviewers of blindsiding the 
company. He said one FDA medical officer exerted considerable and, 
we believe, misguided and inappropriate influence on the review. He 
decried the total silence at the advisory meeting of another agency 
physician. He termed Elashoff's analysis extreme. He said the 
advisory process was distinctly biased against fair and open 
consideration of [Relenza]. A copy of the letter was obtained by The 
Times.
 Elashoff said his superiors told him he would no longer make 
presentations to the advisory committee. He said he was asked at 
least five times to delete the anti-Relenza recommendation from his 
review. He refused. The FDA declined to comment on these matters.
 The agency approved Relenza on July 26, 1999. In a memo dated 
that same day, Jolson provided a mixed assessment.
 Relenza, she said, had not been shown effective for patients 
over 65 or those with a variety of respiratory, cardiovascular and 
other medical conditions. She said special precautions are 
warranted if Relenza is used by patients with respiratory disease. 
These groups would encompass patients most vulnerable to death from 
the flu. On the other hand, Jolson said, the totality of the data 
suggested that some Relenza patients could expect modest benefit and 
that their influenza A or B symptoms might improve an average of one 
day sooner by taking the drug.
 The FDA medical officer first assigned to review Relenza, Dr. 
Barbara Styrt, wrote that a rationale can be constructed either for 
non-approval or for approval. She ultimately backed approval, saying 
that concerns could be addressed through label language and later 
studies. Analysts at Merrill Lynch  Co. predicted the drug would 
generate sales topping $400 million within four years.
 Glaxo, aiming for customers as widespread as the flu itself, 
last fall placed ads for Relenza on network television. The 
lighthearted spots featured an actor from the Seinfeld sitcom.
 Problems emerged quickly.
 Following the voluntarily reported deaths of seven Relenza 
patients, the FDA issued an unusual public health advisory to 
doctors on Jan. 12, 2000, warning of the limited role of Relenza and 
another recently approved flu-symptom drug. Two of the dead had 
bacterial infections and should have been treated with antibiotics.
 The agency said it had received several reports of 
deterioration of respiratory function following inhalation of Relenza 
in patients with underlying asthma or another breathing problem. 
Reports filed through June show that Relenza was cited as a suspect 
in 22 deaths.
 In July, Glaxo issued a warning letter to health professionals, 
noting reports of serious respiratory adverse events when Relenza 
was used in patients with known airways disease. The letter also 
said that patients with no history of such disease had suffered 
decline in respiratory function.
 The company added: Some adverse events have required immediate 
treatment or hospitalization, and some patients . . . have had fatal 
outcomes. The Glaxo letter said it was difficult to determine

[Biofuel] Stuff your chickens into a fuel tank

2005-09-02 Thread Myk Hill

"WRAL.com - News -Local Man Says Chickens Could Be Used To Fuel Vehicles"the link:http://www.wral.com/news/4913795/detail.html
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread John I

 Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 03:02:27 -0400
 From: TarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is
 There Blame?
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Message-ID:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII;
 format=flowed

 In captions on news photos of Orleans:
   White people who were carrying boxes were
 'scavenging'.
   Black people who were carrying boxes were
 'looting'.

It's theft no matter who's doing it...  I haven't
noticed any difference in coverage between which race
is stealing. That's not to say you haven't or that
there isn't something wrong with it when you have.  

 Both the white scavengers and the black looters were
 collecting stuff 
 that was certain to be a complete write-off for
 whomever owned it 
 before. Who cares if a wet TV ends up in someone's
 new cardboard home?

I care on several levels!  If it goes to that persons
insurance when it wouldn't have then it affects all
other insurance ratepayer(of that company/govt). 
Despite what the anarchists may say, there is
something to be said for the rule of law.  If it was
your store or home being looted I doubt we'd see you
there handing the stuff out since it's covered anyway.

 Robert Heinlein (I think) once said, The punishment
 for stupidity is 
 death. If you're seeking consumer electronics
 instead of water, food, 
 and medicine, the Darwin effect is sure to get you.

 When some poor fool gets caught with a few joints,
 more than once, we 
 toss him in prison for a long mandatory sentence,
 often evicting some 
 rapist or murderer who wasn't  mandatorily
 sentenced.
 When some rich fool gets caught defrauding 300
 million people, we 
 re-elect him.

No doubt!  It sickens me to see that rich get a slap
on the wrist or evade prosecution all together.  When
fined only a small percentage of the take so when that
1 yr stay at club fed is over it's back to the
Ritz disgusting.  

 Ok, that's my rant for the evening, g'night all.

 taryn
 http://ornae.com/

 On Sep 1, 2005, at 10:57 PM,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Kim,

  You and Greg are not the only ones who feel that
 way.  I am just 
  getting
  caught up on the day's email, and I found that I
 agree more with you 
  two
  that most of the others on this particular topic. 
 If I lived in a
  disaster-prone area, like Southern Louisiana,
 Florida, Southern 
  California
  or even Seattle/Tacoma area, I would certainly
 prepare for the worst.

  I also do not condemn the people who attempted to
 help themselves.  In 
  fact,
  I do feel sorry for those souls who did evacuate
 (or tried to) and now 
  do
  not know where their homes are still standing or
 have been stripped 
  clean by
  selfish looters.  I would gladly open my home to
 someone in that 
  situation,
  whether I knew them well or not.

  For those who stayed behind against the warnings
 of the weather experts
  (including the non-governmental ones), state and
 local governments, 
  don't
  worry, the Fed's will come in and bail you out as
 they always do.  I 
  just
  hope that the local police get a copy of the news
 tapes showing the 
  faces of
  those looters carrying TVs  DVD players out of
 the abandoned stores.  
  What
  do you need a TV for when the power is expected to
 be out for weeks or
  months?  It would be nice to see some prosecuted.

  Thanks,

  Earl Kinsley
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  --
  Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned
 an invisible 
  government
  owing no allegiance and acknowledging no
 responsibility to the people. 
  To
  destroy this invisible government, to befoul the
 unholy alliance 
  between
  corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first
 task of the 
  statesmen of
  today.
   - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906

  - Original Message -
  From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans.
 Is There Blame?

  Greetings,

  I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that
 feel frustration 
  with
  people who don't care about their lives, then
 expect someone else to 
  pick
  up the pieces?

  Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help
 themselves, just 
  those who
  don't.  I can remember my parents being irate
 with a neighbor when we 
  were
  growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There
 was a broken water 
  main
  and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The
 one guy on the street
  that
  was always bragging about his new toys, was the
 one that didn't have 
  the
  money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his
 insurance premiums. 
   I
  mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta,
 Canada?  I am afraid 
  they
  were not very polite when someone came canvassing
 for money to help 
  the
  guy.

  How about:  God helps those who help themselves?

  I don't see that a rant against people who have

[Biofuel] RAXAR: Warning on Label Omits Deaths

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_raxar001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000 |

RAXAR:
Warning on Label Omits Deaths
  Heart problems were mentioned in fine print, but not key dosage data.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 When the antibiotic Raxar was approved on Nov. 6, 1997, FDA 
officials knew that it too might cause irregular rhythm and stop a 
patient's heart.
 An agency medical officer, Dr. Andrea N. Meyerhoff, suspected 
that two of four patients who died after taking Raxar in clinical 
trials possibly suffered heart-rhythm disturbances caused by the drug.
 Meyerhoff noted in her review that the drug manufacturer, Glaxo 
Wellcome Inc., said Raxar played no role in the deaths. But Meyerhoff 
wrote that the two cases posed an open question. Each patient who 
died had taken 600-milligram doses.
 Regarding one of those patients, a 68-year-old man who died a 
week after completing the clinical trial, Meyerhoff wrote: This 
patient may have been at higher risk for [fatal] arrhythmia due to QT 
interval prolongation from grepafloxacin, the chemical name of 
Raxar. The second patient died five days after withdrawing from the 
clinical trial.
 She added in her review, dated November 1997: Again it is not 
clear that this event is unrelated to [Raxar]. Sudden death in a 
patient with no prior cardiac history is suggestive of an arrhythmia. 
. . . The label will need to have an adequate warning regarding the 
possibility of QT prolongation. Overall, she found a significantly 
higher rate of adverse events among patients who had taken 600 
milligrams compared with lower doses.
 With Meyerhoff's assent, the FDA approved Raxar for treating 
bronchitis, pneumonia, urinary tract infections and gonorrhea. The 
drug's label stated that prolongation of the QT interval has been 
observed in healthy volunteers receiving Raxar.
 But the label did not disclose the fatalities described in 
Meyerhoff's review. It said that there were no deaths or permanent 
disabilities among those who took Raxar in 400-milligram doses. The 
statement was true, if incomplete: All four of the study patients who 
died took Raxar in 600-milligram doses. And Glaxo marketed the drug 
at doses of 200 milligrams, 400 milligrams and 600 milligrams. A 
total of 925 patients took the 600 milligrams dose in the clinical 
studies.
 On Oct. 27, 1999, Glaxo pulled Raxar off the market.
 In a subsequent letter to doctors, Glaxo said that because of 
Raxar's effect on QT interval prolongation the drug was 
unacceptably risky. In a separate statement, the company said it is 
no longer convinced that the benefits of Raxar outweigh the potential 
risk to patients, given the availability of alternative antibiotics.
 Records filed with the FDA show that Raxar was cited as a 
suspect in the voluntarily reported deaths of 13 patients. They 
ranged in age from 42 to 86; most of them were under 70.
 [Raxar] goes on the market, kills people and has to come off, 
said Dr. Raymond L. Woosley, the pharmacology department chairman at 
Georgetown University who served on an FDA advisory committee in the 
1980s. It had been proven, over and over, that this QT prolongation 
predicts terrible events.
 By the time of the withdrawal, Raxar had generated $23.5 million 
in U.S. sales. Securities analysts had predicted it could be a 
$1-billion drug.
 With so many other antibiotics on the market, why did the FDA 
expose patients to the risk of Raxar?
 In a written response to questions, Woodcock indicated that the 
FDA sought to address the drug's cardiac risk through precautionary 
language in its labeling.
 Asked why that labeling did not acknowledge the deaths of 
patients who took doses of 600 milligrams, Woodcock wrote that none 
of the fatalities was shown to be attributable to Raxar.
 In an interview over the summer, Woodcock said the FDA's 
patience was gone for new drugs that prolong the QT interval. We're 
encouraging people, if there's QT prolongation, don't develop it, 
she said.
 This would mark a turnabout.
 Just last December--less than two months after the withdrawal of 
Raxar--the FDA approved a new antibiotic, called Avelox, despite the 
drug's well-documented propensity in clinical studies to prolong the 
QT interval.
 Avelox was approved for treating sinus infections, bronchitis 
and pneumonia.
 On the 267th line of the Avelox label, doctors are warned in 
bold type that it has been shown to prolong the QT interval.
 So far, Avelox, made by Bayer Corp., has been prescribed for 
more than 300,000 patients in the U.S. The drug has been cited as a 
suspect in 18 deaths here and abroad. A Bayer spokesman, Robert 
Kloppenburg, said that the company does not believe any of the 
fatalities were attributable to Avelox and that most of the 
patients had serious preexisting conditions.
 Avelox, he said, holds an advantage over many antibiotics 
because it

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Why not Sony?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:56
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


 
 I prefer Blaupunkt over Pioneer, but my friend prefers Aiwa. Anything is 
 better than Sony.
 


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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

Brian,

How is your electrical supply?The reason I ask, is that I have an idea,
but, it requires electricity to use.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:14
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..


 This is better.
 I am isolated here for the long weekend at the ranch with no high
 speed Internet (poor me, I know) no media either, but that is a
 choice. Anyway, the Katrina thread was a bit much for me as I have no
 idea what is happening down there on the Gulf Coast.It does sound
 awful, but I have wonder if the media isn't making it look even worse
 than it really is. Don't know, I am here not there.

 Back to the silver  copper as oxidisers in water. I think that my
 fear of stagnant water comes directly from my wife who has had
 Legionnaires disease. She of course does not trust water older that a
 few weeks. Coincidentally she has a teaching degree in biology and she
 leans toward bleach. Of course bleaching our stored drinking water  is
 out of the question. Yuk.
 Then the idea of using hydrogen peroxide, it never occurred to me to
 use it for anything except cleansing wounds. Once again you all get me
 thinking more.
 I will run these ideas by my gal. Thank you.
 Brian Rodgers



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[Biofuel] PROPULSID: A Heartburn Drug, Now Linked to Children's Deaths

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_propulsid001220.htm
PROPULSID: A Heartburn Drug, Now Linked to Children's Deaths
Wednesday, December 20, 2000 |  Print this story

PROPULSID:
A Heartburn Drug, Now Linked to Children's Deaths
  Once evidence of harm emerged, FDA took years to withdraw approval.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

Tina and Jeffrey A. Englebrick of Shawnee, Kan., mourn their 
3-month-old son, Scott, who died in 1997 after taking the heartburn 
drug Propulsid. The FDA took my kid as a guinea pig to see if it 
would work, Jeffrey Englebrick says.
BRIAN WALSKI / Los Angeles Times
 In mid-1993, FDA officials prepared to approve Propulsid, a drug 
that eased nighttime heartburn. But a sign of danger loomed.
 FDA medical officer Andre Dubois noted that 48 of 1,993, or 
2.4%, of the patients who took Propulsid in U.S. studies experienced 
heart rate and rhythm disorders. In addition, eight children age 6 
or younger who were given Propulsid had died.
 Dubois found that the drug's chemical makeup could disturb 
cardiac function. But he agreed with drug maker Janssen 
Pharmaceutica, a Johnson  Johnson Co. subsidiary, that the deaths in 
the studies were attributable to other causes.
 He recommended approval along with disclosure in the label of 
potential cardiac effects. The risk seems very low, he said.
 Dubois, however, worked in a division that focuses on drugs for 
the gastrointestinal tract.
 No one at the FDA consulted with the agency's division of 
cardiac specialists before approving Propulsid on July 29, 1993, 
according to physicians familiar with the matter. By not tapping 
their expertise, FDA officials failed to notice what should have been 
another warning flag: Electrocardiograms showed that Propulsid 
prolonged patients' QT interval, the time during which the heart's 
main pumping chambers contract and then relax.
 If the QT interval--typically about 4/10 of a second--is 
extended even slightly, it can trigger a disruption or cessation of 
the heartbeat. Called an arrhythmia, it can result in sudden death.
 FDA officials outside the gastrointestinal division had already 
warned publicly--on June 11, 1990--that two allergy drugs, Seldane 
and Hismanal, prolonged the QT interval and therefore posed lethal 
risk. Both drugs were later withdrawn.
 Indeed, the danger had been stressed for several years by Dr. 
Raymond J. Lipicky, director of the agency's cardiology division. 
Lipicky, writing in the August 1993 issue of the American Journal of 
Cardiology, said if a drug that prolonged the QT interval had a 
benefit that was less than lifesaving . . . any risk of death would 
likely be considered unacceptable.

 

Those of us here at the FDA who are aware of your loss wish to again 
extend our deepest sympathy and sincere condolences to you and your 
family.
- FDA Administrator Florence Houn, writing July 27, 2000, to the 
mother of 9-month-old Gage E. Stevens, who died on Thanksgiving 1999.

  In approving Propulsid, the FDA agreed to labeling that advised 
doctors of rare cases of increased heartbeats. The labeling said 
Propulsid's role in the events was not clear.
 In response to written questions, Dr. Janet Woodcock, director 
of the FDA's drug review center, said the danger associated with 
non-cardiac drugs that prolonged the QT interval was not well 
appreciated at the time Propulsid was approved. Consequently, she 
said, this was not identified as a concern by the gastrointestinal 
division.
 By early 1995, Propulsid's danger to the heart was certainly 
identified as a concern within the gastrointestinal division, agency 
records show.
 On Jan. 25, 1995, a senior FDA medical officer, Dr. Stephen B. 
Fredd, told Janssen executives that recent adverse-reaction reports 
showed their drug was prolonging the QT interval, perhaps resulting 
in deaths.
 According to the meeting summary, It was the firm's position 
that the cases cited by Dr. Fredd were not 'clean' cases, thus making 
it difficult to attribute the effect to [Propulsid]. Fredd responded 
that unequivocal evidence of Propulsid's culpability was unlikely 
to be captured outside of a controlled clinical study.
 But within a month, the FDA and the company agreed to the first 
of five safety-labeling changes that would help keep the drug on the 
market over the next five years.
 Meanwhile, a significant market for Propulsid emerged in the 
treatment of children.
 Propulsid was never proved effective or safe for infants, yet it 
became the drug of choice for many pediatricians in treating gastric 
reflux, a common disorder that is usually outgrown by age 1. Reflux 
can impede infants' digestion and, due to their crying, disrupt their 
parents' sleep. As with almost all drugs, doctors could lawfully 
prescribe Propulsid for any use, or indication, they chose.
 On Aug. 15, 1996, the FDA informed the Johnson  Johnson 
subsidiary that

Re: [Biofuel] rockets, turbines and compressed air..was..[DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like totry something...but first, your opinions (please).

2005-09-02 Thread Alt.EnergyNetwork

Hi,

Yes, you basically melted sugar and add a couple
of ingredients and poured the mixture into tubes and compacted with the cone 
shape
at the bottom.
They used to work even better when you had a string connected through a hole
in the top of the cone. This string was tied at the top, centered on a nail.
The molten fuel would form around the cone and when dry, the string was removed 
leaving a burn channel through the propellant. Yes you have to follow all the 
rules
 or you can blow something up
Lots of fun but it would'nt be too hard
 to get arrested for some of these activities these days.

How about a wood pellet fired turbine/generator for emergencies or
 equalization charging where gasoline or traditional fuels are not available?

Maybe something positive about the current energy crisis... is finally spurring 
nations into
agressively developing alternate fuel sources and renewable energy sources

While the present (U.S) administration is not taking the problem seriously 
enough.

The dire situation we are headed for is finally beginning to sink in with
the general public, made painfully aware at the pump. In turn, they will be 
reminded
everyday with increases in  heating oil, electricity rates to practically
everything else that relies on oil - ... either in manufacture or transporting
the product/service to market.

regards
tallex







Alternate Energy Resource Network
  1000+ news sources-resources
 updated daily
http://www.alternate-energy.net


---Original Message---
 From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] rockets,   turbines and compressed 
 air..was..[DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like totry something...but first, your 
 opinions (please).
 Sent: 02 Sep '05 13:10
 
  Interesting, I never tried mixing heated ingredients to make solid
  rocket fuel for model engines. We used a specially shaped ram with wet
  fuel, kind of like dough. You put in clay first to ram (press) the
  nozzle at the bottom of the tube, then the fuel. When it hardened, there
  would be a cone-shaped hollow up through the solid fuel. Worked good but
  you couldn't get too long with the tube or it would explode in flight.
  Read about the dangers and follow safety rules and you will likely
  remain alive.
  
  Regards,
  Emil
  
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
  Alt.EnergyNetwork
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 5:26 PM
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Subject: [Biofuel] rockets,turbines and compressed
  air..was..[DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like totry something...but first,
  your opinions (please).
  
  Hi all,
  
  I used to be fascinated by this stuff when I was a kid and
  used to do a lot of pyro with building solid fuel model rockets.
  My friends and I would mix the materials on the kitchen stove
  and pour the molten fuel into cardboard tubes to harden around
  an cone shape at the bottom of the tube.
  Once electronically launched on our pad they would shoot
  up maybe a few hundred feet. That ended abruptly
  when I smoke bombed my mothers kitchen once accidently when mixing
  the ingredients!!
  
  So, I had done a lot of reading on rockets, ram jets, scram jets, v1,
  v2,s
  etc. Really fun stuff. If memory serves me correctly, Hitler used
  liquid paraffin and kerosene in the v2's. They were only designed to run
  for several minutes in flight.  His scientists had also tried
  liquid parrafin and alcohol.
  One of the problems with these types of systems is that they used an
  incredable
  amount of fuel to operate for any length of time.
  
  Many air tools operate on an air turbine or piston design. You only need
  around 90psi
  to start doing some worth while work and it wouldn't be too hard to
  generate with wind
  or solar. I have operated a model air motor on compressed air for about
  20 minutes
  with one of those tanks for tire fill ups @40 psi.
  Sizing up such a system might be very interesting.
  I have often though about a home system of wind /solar generated
  compressed air
  for use to run a turbine when there is no sun or wind. I have to do a
  lot more work on
  the cost effectiveness of such a design and component sourcing for a
  prototype
  but it is definately not that far fetched, unless I, or
  someone else convinces me otherwise.
  
  regards
  tallex
  
  
  
  
  Alternate Energy Resource Network
    1000+ news sources-resources
   updated daily
  http://www.alternate-energy.net
  
  
  ---Original Message---
   From: Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd
  like to   try something...but first, your opinions (please).
   Sent: 01 Sep '05 18:51
  
    Hi Doug. 400 mph...oops...just a minor detail. Of course you're
  right.
    The SCRAM jet is the super-sonic version (supersonic combustion ram
    jet). I think the old German V1 (buzz-bomb) used a variation on the
    pulse jet that had a

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If 
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could 
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away 
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we 
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that 
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live 
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:04 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:

Being apologetic doesn't change the fact that these kinds of 
generalizations express a kind of discrimination that, at best has no 
value and at worst becomes the seed for something worse.

Mike



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Re: [Biofuel] Quality Test of biodiesel

2005-09-02 Thread Thomas Kelly

Keith,
   Thanks for the reply.
   I suspect that you were right on target when you questioned how well the 
mix was agitated  .   type of pump, length of time, volume of mix. I 
used a 1 clearwater pump; a used one that had been donated to the cause. It 
seems to have lost its motivation     still sounds good, but refuses to 
pump anything.
 It worked fine on smaller batches but, on its last legs, may not have 
provided enough agitation for the larger batch.
 A new pump is on its way. I guess it only makes sense to use a new 
pump, after all we use the freshest ingredients, and agitation is critical 
to success, but there is something attractive about using old, discarded 
materials for this particular project  ...  using old, discarded tanks to 
turn old discarded oil into new fuel. A clean, new pump is going to look out 
of place. I do hope I can resurrect the old one   maybe use it to pump 
the biodiesel to the wash tank.

 I came to the list strictly interested in getting my biodiesel project 
off the ground. Following the various postings have discovered that I see 
the world as if from the bottom of a well. The view is expanding ever so 
slightly, ever so slowly.
 Thanks to all.
   Tom
- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Quality Test of biodiesel


 Hello Tom

 I wanted to test a recent 25 gal batch of biodiesel.
 I dissolved 25 ml of finished biodiesel in 225 ml methanol (Jan
Warnqist @ JtF Biodiesel and Your Vehicle) and got approx. 2ml
undissolved material at the bottom of the bottle, indicating an
incomplete reaction.
 I reprocessed 1L. of the biodiesel as if it were virgin oil
(Todd Swearingen @ JtF Biodiesel and Your Vehicle) and found
glycerine in the container. Again, indicating an incomplete reaction.
  Why so?
  1/2 hp pump agitation

 Is that a 1 clear water pump?

at 125F for 1 hour.

 Could be a bit higher, 130-135 F, could be a bit longer too.

 The instructions you find in various methods do the best they can but
 can only put you in the ballpark when it comes to applying them to
 your particular reactor, there are too many variables, I wonder if
 any two reactors are the same? You have to adapt it. It's the same
 scaling up from 1-litre test batches to a full-sized reactor, it
 might not be a smooth transfer.

  Not enough lye or not enough methanol.
  -The fumeless reaction tank I use is from an old 50 gal water 
 heater.
  -The oil + methanol only came to 30 gal.

 That's more than I'd recommend trying to agitate with a 1 clear water 
 pump.

Could the empty space in the tank allow enough of the methanol to
evaporate to effect the reaction?

 Nearly all of it condenses at the top of the reactor and drips back
 in again, or it should do, so even if there are fumes it's
 circulating. I wouldn't know how to estimate how much methanol might
 be in the fumes, but I doubt that's your problem.

 Best wishes

 Keith


  Tom


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[Biofuel] Oil crisis, Iraq, Bangladesh, New Orleans, Martial Law, Placing the blame.

2005-09-02 Thread Myk Hill

What we have come to is an orginization out of control with our tax dollars, might as well call it the GOP party who all said mainly the same thing to get elected:

Democrats = Democumists

Republicans = Repubocrats

It is easy to shift blame somewhere else, but the truth is who put that man back in office? We the people did with our votes and blinders on.
2008 Needs to be a year to get a third party candidate in their to make the GOP sweat it out a little bit and put a better candidate up there. Whether it be Constitution party, Libertarian party, Green Party... any party but the GOP.
At the risk of sounding bios, but purely as an example I was a big supporter of the Constitution party.

Go third parties !
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[Biofuel] Drug Lotronex Pulled Over Safety Fears

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/updates2/lat_fda001129.htm

Wednesday, November 29, 2000

Drug Lotronex Pulled Over Safety Fears

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 WASHINGTON--Another drug launched with fast-track government 
approval was withdrawn on Tuesday, marking the 10th time in three 
years that a prescription medicine has been banished in the United 
States for safety reasons.
 The drug, Lotronex, was approved nine months ago for treating 
irritable bowel syndrome in women. The withdrawal was announced by 
Glaxo Wellcome Inc. after the Food and Drug Administration received 
voluntary reports linking the company's drug to five deaths and 
additional bowel surgeries.
 The withdrawal raised new doubts about the FDA's practice of 
conducting accelerated medical reviews of drugs that do not offer 
potential lifesaving benefits. On March 21, the FDA announced the 
banishment of Rezulin, the adult-onset diabetes pill, which also was 
approved in a fast-track review.
 Lotronex is only the latest 'fast-track' drug to be withdrawn 
by the FDA, said Rep. Henry A. Waxman (D-Los Angeles), who has 
helped shape legislation affecting the regulatory agency. There's 
now a real question of whether the right balance of approval-speed 
and safety is being struck.
 The FDA began granting the fast-track reviews in 1996 for new 
drugs intended to treat serious or life-threatening conditions.
 In addition to Lotronex and Rezulin, the other prescription 
drugs withdrawn since fall 1997 are the diet pills Redux and 
Pondimin; the painkiller Duract; the allergy pills Seldane and 
Hismanal; the blood-pressure pill Posicor; the antibiotic Raxar; and 
the heartburn drug Propulsid.
 The agency approved Lotronex on Feb. 9 following a review that 
took just seven months, compared to the standard duration of one 
year. Senior FDA officials decided to approve Lotronex despite an 
agency physician's emphatic warnings that it could cause constipation 
and ischemic colitis--a potentially fatal complication that results 
from inadequate blood flow to the colon.
 In a statement issued Tuesday night, the FDA said it had 
received reports of 49 cases of ischemic colitis and 21 cases of 
severe constipation. Ten of those 70 patients underwent surgeries 
and 34 others were examined at hospitals and released without 
surgery, according to the FDA.
 Lotronex sales in the U.S. totaled $50.4 million through 
September, according to the research firm IMS Health. Through Nov. 
17, pharmacists had filled 474,115 prescriptions for the drug.
 Glaxo's stock price dropped 4.4%, to $56.56, in trading Tuesday 
on the New York Stock Exchange.
 The end for Lotronex came Tuesday during a 212-hour meeting 
convened privately at the FDA's headquarters in suburban Rockville, 
Md. According to those familiar with the session, Glaxo executives, 
led by company Chairman Robert A. Ingram, reiterated their position 
that the risks of Lotronex could be managed adequately through 
revised labeling and other measures. Agency officials recommended 
that Glaxo either withdraw the drug or agree to controls that would 
restrict sales of the pill, once regarded by Wall Street as a 
potential blockbuster.
 We said to the FDA, 'Look, these [proposed controls] are 
no-gos. We believe you're asking us to remove the drug,'  said Dr. 
Richard S. Kent, Glaxo's chief medical officer and vice president.  
'So, we are going to remove the drug.' 
 Kent estimated that ischemic colitis occurred in one of every 
1,000 Lotronex patients and that about half are managed as 
outpatients and half are hospitalized. He contended that Lotronex 
offers risks and benefits that are comparable to various other 
medications, including popular pain pills sold by prescription and 
over the counter.
 When the FDA convened a special advisory committee meeting on 
June 27 to reassess Lotronex, Kent had argued against the agency 
staff's proposal to stiffen the warning of ischemic colitis by 
placing a bold, black box around the product labeling. I think there 
is a great duty not to overwarn, Kent said then.
 Following the June 27 meeting, the FDA dropped the proposal for 
a black-box warning, which signifies for doctors that a drug has 
elevated and deadly risk.
 In a prepared statement on Tuesday, Glaxo acknowledged rare 
reports of fatalities but said that a causal relationship to 
Lotronex has not been established. Reports filed with the FDA 
through October identified Lotronex as the primary suspect drug in 
five deaths.
 The top FDA official who attended the session Tuesday with 
Glaxo, drug-review center director Dr. Janet Woodcock, issued no 
public comment. In a 12-paragraph talk paper, the agency described 
the withdrawal of Lotronex as voluntary.
 Missing from Tuesday's session with Glaxo was Dr. John 
Senior--the FDA medical officer who had warned of Lotronex's severe 
risk. Senior pointed out one year ago to

Re: [Biofuel] Venezuela to Provide Discounted Heating Oil and Free Eye Operat...





hhh

 Why is this always the first reaction I get from people. Or else
it is; can I sell them biodiesel. "you could make a fortune selling
that stuff" Let me say this as clearly as I can. I AM NOT IN BUSINESS.
I AM NOT SELLING ANYTHING. I AM NOT TRYING TO PROFIT FROM MY BIOFUEL
ACTIVITIES!
If you read my web page you would understand it is a NOT FOR PROFIT
ORGANIZATION. The point of it is that I figured out early on just what
Kirk said. When enough people start running BD in thier cars the
pressure will be on the government to put in legislation and grab a
slice of the pie. By setting up the NPO and making it just a place
where you bring in your own oil and go away with fuel you made yourself
(just like home made wine) a lot of red tape is avoided. If I sell you
fuel I may be liable if you have an engine problem. If you make your
own you take that responsibility. A NPO avoids taxation problems and a
coop making fuel can avoid fuel taxes just like people making wine or
beer down at the local U-Brew coop avoid the liquor tax.
It is about doing something good for the environment and the local
community. It is also about sticking it to the greedy bastards in the
oil industry. It is not about me capitalizing on my ability to build
reactors or modify cars to run SVO or make alternative fuels or
anything that I may be good at fiddling with. I don't want to become
one of "them". I hope everyone will be able to serve their own needs
one day without being at the mercy of some money grubbing fear
mongering energy bully.

 Curently I am looking into this alternative reaction process. I am
still learning and documenting my progress. I am quietly evolving my
processor. So far I haven't electrocuted myself or burned my house down
but if I do I'll take responsibility for it. If I can get rid of the
lye I will be whistling dixie. When I am confident about what I have to
offer I'll post all I have learned about what doesn't work as well as
what does work on my site. Will I make plans available? Absolutely. I
love open source forums on the web and the idea of sharing the wealth
of knowledge openly. I'm not lurking here mining for information so I
can slink off and use it to sell a million barrels of biofuel or
exhorbitant skid processors for someone else to do the same. That's
exactly the kind of thinking that got us in the lovely situation we are
in with this world and I've had enough of it. No doubt some of those
lurkers are shaking their heads glibly snickering at my cluelesness in
the ways of commerce. Whateva.

Grrr

Joe



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  
  In a message dated 9/1/2005 10:04:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Good call Kirk;

Thats why I am setting up a non profit organization for making biofuel.
http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca
Power to the people man. Lucky they left a loophole for us to jump
through eh?

Joe
  
  That sounds like a wonderful idea.
  I have seen Mike's completely sealed reactor, and now you seem
to have one.
  Are these for sale to other states?
  Are there blueprints or something?
  
  How does someone who wants to copy you, get aprocessor big
enough to do so?
  
  Bearing in mind that I have yet to build my test processing
system and still waiting for the answers to some other questions so it
will be awhile.
  
  Do you think I should re ask my questions, or wait a bit longer
first?
  
  But if it's doable, maybe I could start working on gathering a
co-operative of interested people to work with.
  
  Blessings
  Johanna
  
  
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Cohabitation

2005-09-02 Thread AntiFossil

As long as you freely admit that you're crazy, you bet you can count on my vote! On 8/31/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:Well, at least I know I'm crazy!Unlike, uh, our current head of state.
Can I count on your vote?AntiFossil wrote: Hmm..?Judging by how long it's taken me to get back to my computer, I guess I'm the slow Mike.Nice campaign slogan there Mike!
 On 8/30/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am the one and true Mike.This other fellow is clearly an imposter.
 Do not follow false Mikes.I personally will lead you into temptation. I am running for president.My slogan is: Mike Weaver for president: A troubled man for troubled times.
 Michael Redler wrote:  What!? I have kids!!?   I think Doug's got the wrong Mike on that quote (as Mike Weaver  already noticed).
   :-)   Mike   */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:   Nah, the kids have their own room.   Douglas Smith wrote:   Michael Redler wrote:
Uh oh. I'm cohabitating illegally. Wait'll I tell my GF. You know, Michael, I don't have anything against you and your
  girlfriend doing whatever you like in private - or any other  straight  couple - but must you flaunt it in front of the rest of us? The  children might see and then we'd have to explain!
(NOTE: Tongue planted firmly in cheek)Doug  The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest
  exercises in  moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral  justification for selfishness.  - economist John Kenneth Galbraith
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 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Mike...K
 MN, USA For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the very definition of slavery: Jonathan Swift
___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
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-- Mike KAntiFossilMN, USAThe genius of our ruling class is that it has kept a majority of the people from ever questioning the inequity of a system where most people drudge along, paying heavy
taxes for which they get nothing in return: Gore Vidal For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the very definition of slavery:Jonathan SwiftQuotes from Information Clearing House 

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Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: OpAmp Active Filter Synthesis

Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Mike"So would I."Did you?"The filter has less to do with sine wave synthesis and more to dowith ensuring a clean signal."Of course, this is basic electronics.
Then why did your original message question my methodfor generating the signal when I didn't offer one. I made a suggestion to use a filter to cleanthe signal?
Which is probably why Kirk said it is very lossy.
What losses? A Sallen-Key, Op-amp (voltage controlled device - impedance is infinite) circuit,operating at5volts (for example) will attenuatethe pass band by a very small amount (milliamps). I can only assume that Kirk thought I was suggesting to filter the amplified, power signal.
To turn away a signal is in itself loss
Agreed. Quantify that loss, compare it to losses used in other circuits and get back to me with an answer as to how important that loss is.
unless you have some way to feed it backafter massaging it. Do you have access to an oscilloscope?Check out the wave shape coming out of a cheap battery backup used forsmall computers. Compare it to the wave shape of grid AC.Can you see the difference? "There is also the added bonus of creating/using more primitive signal generators without sacrificing quality since the filter willreject unwanted signals."
Why are you using primitive electronics?
Cheap, easy to build, parts are readily available,lends itself to analog designs without requiring a lot of tuning and NO programming. But, it was never my intention to debate the "ideal" circuit design with you in the first place.
"OK Soare you going to explain why or just leave me hangin'? Mike"You haven't the foggiest idea why I said you were hanging?No. I still don't.
Hmmm.Hmmm? Please stop trying to be profound and get to the point.

I am trying to help.
So am I.
I simply offered information. Without presuming it's value to others, I offered it as-is, for people to useor not use. Do you think this group would be as successful as it is if people didn't have a desire to experiment, depart from what everyone else is doingand take a shot at being innovative? Your suggestion to copy and/or scavenge from other devices is important. However, if that's all you do and reject unconventional approaches because they are too time consuming or more expensive or simply because "it's not done that way", then I don't have much more to say to you on this topic.
This isn't the first time and it won't be the last time I suggest something that is summarily rejected or otherwise called impractical, too...(whatever), or not what everyone else is doing. There are days when I actually see it as a compliment.
So, Thanks!
Brian
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Appal Energy

Go back and read your own words Kim.

Their all-inclusiveness painted everyone with the same broad brush. No 
different than Greg, you imply that everyone who remained is of the same 
mindset/mentality, and then you both progress and attempt to convict all 
who stayed as having the same criminal intent and/or recklessness, to 
the point of negligent homicide.

The carelessness with how you, Greg and now Johanna have chosen your 
words, failing to separate they from the remotely small population of 
them to whom your frustrations, condemnations and self-righteous 
judgements may (or may not apply), places you precisely and 
smack-dab-center within the definition of stereotyping.

Frustration is not a worthy excuse for the exercise that the three of 
you are conducting. Thoughtlessness is.

Not at all in line with the visual given of someone who constantly signs 
off with bright blessings. All rather cold, callous and quite the 
opposite.

Todd Swearingen


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,
No one but you has brought up any stereo types.  If you honestly believe 
that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent bystander, 
then enjoy your rose colored glasses.  Most of us feel anger that children 
died because their parents would not heed warnings.  We never said that 
every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything like 
that.  However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect others 
to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves.  It is sad that 
their children have paid an ultimate price for their behavior.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:32 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
  

Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to
help themselves, just those who don't.
  

And precisely who's position is it to condemn anyone? And what right is
it of their's to say that those whom they condemn or denigrate didn't do
all they could within their means?

An estimated 112,000 homes that lack transportation in the New Orleans
area, with the government agencies fully expecting that 20% of the
population would not be evacuated under circumstances similar to or less
than Katrina. See  Hurricane Pam Exercise,
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm

I wonder what it is that these agencies know that Greg and yourself don't?

As for rants that you perceive to be acceptable? Well, it is quite out
of line to rant when not holding all the facts. Even worse to rant and
stereotype all who are enduring the same consequence when not all made
decisions on the same basis.

A bit like saying all Canadians who choose to live in Texas are as dumb
as bricks. Or that all black single moms are sucking on the government
welfare teat. Maybe there are extinuating circumstances that rip such
rants to shreds under even the most simplified examination.

Todd Swearingen



Garth  Kim Travis wrote:



Greetings,

I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with
people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick
up the pieces?

Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who
don't.  I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were
growing up for the same kind of behavior.  There was a broken water main
and it flooded the basements of the houses.  The one guy on the street that
was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the
money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums.  I
mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?  I am afraid they
were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy.

How about:  God helps those who help themselves?

I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and
others is out of line.

And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the
people of Louisianna.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:



  

I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor
judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you
express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.

Mike





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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

Hey Brian you should look into ozone as a purifier for the water.  It is 
not hard to generate ozone.  You do have to be careful not to breathe it 
but It is wonderful for sanitizing water and avoids the issues of 
chlorine.  Should be doable for a DIY project.

Joe

Brian Rodgers wrote:

This is better. 
I am isolated here for the long weekend at the ranch with no high
speed Internet (poor me, I know) no media either, but that is a
choice. Anyway, the Katrina thread was a bit much for me as I have no
idea what is happening down there on the Gulf Coast.It does sound
awful, but I have wonder if the media isn't making it look even worse
than it really is. Don't know, I am here not there.

Back to the silver  copper as oxidisers in water. I think that my
fear of stagnant water comes directly from my wife who has had
Legionnaires disease. She of course does not trust water older that a
few weeks. Coincidentally she has a teaching degree in biology and she
leans toward bleach. Of course bleaching our stored drinking water  is
out of the question. Yuk.
Then the idea of using hydrogen peroxide, it never occurred to me to
use it for anything except cleansing wounds. Once again you all get me
thinking more.
I will run these ideas by my gal. Thank you.
Brian Rodgers

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?



Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If 
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could 
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away 
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we 
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that 
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live 
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim



Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not a 
dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a spade we 
are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you redneck angels of 
sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all die of fence riding 
induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

You say that it's not that simple yet, you generalize by pointing to a mixed group of people and take a position against"them", saying that "they" don't help themselves andshoot at rescue workers.

Oversimplified - Hell Yes!

Who are "they" and how do you know the circumstances of each person and what "their" motivations are?

"I've never seen any disaster before where the victims refused to pitch in, shot at rescue workers and in general made their own relief more difficult."

That's right! They're all suicide drowners! Wait, that doesn't sound right. How about suicide starvers, out to send a message but, those rescuing infidelsjust won't give up!

Mike[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 9/1/2005 5:16:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment?The irony here ishow youexpress less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse.

Mike

The issue isn't quite that simple.
These people aren't doing anything to help themselves.
They are shooting at the rescue workers, setting fires, massive looting.

More security being sent in means less resources for the relief.
Yet security is the issue these people have forced to the front of the list.

I also don't have any sympathy for people who refuse to help themselves and do their best to interfere with those who are trying to help them.

To shoot at someone trying to help another, just because it isn't you is pretty horrible.
If you want to get help for yourself and your family, pitch in and help out. Speed up the rescue and assistance for those in more need and your turn comes faster.

I've never seen any disaster before where the victims refused to pitch in, shot at rescue workers and in general made their own relief more difficult.

In the hurricane damage in Florida, the day after people were getting out and about, cleaning up (particularly the roads) and making repairs and doing what ever they could for each other and making things easier for the relief to get thru.

I was in the Earthquake in San Francisco, and immediately after it settled, we were doing the same thing. Helping each other and cleaning up and making ourselves easy tohelp.

These people are not following the pattern and I don't have any sympathy for them either.

Relief buses are very, very late because the roads are blocked. Fine, get out and help clear the roads. No food being distributed, fine get a hold of someone in charge and volunteer to lead your fellows to do the work. If relief isn't timely because it takes large teams to do the work of one person simply for security's sake, then relief simply isn't going to be timely or efficient.

These people don't get my sympathy either, they horrify me.

I thought that the majority of the people on a list like this one would be very much into doing for yourself, not waiting around depending on others to rescue us from the dinodiesel (I love that word, thanks to who ever used it) problems. People who step right up and do what needs to be done. People who help each other not from charity or empathy but from the desire to propagate the ideas and energy of "do-it-yourself".

Therefore, I find his attitude quite logical.

I'm a newbie though, what do I know.

Blessings
Johanna___
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Re: [Biofuel] Venezuela to Provide Discounted Heating Oil and Free Eye Operat...

Yeah, Whatever.  How much for a gallon?

Joe Street wrote:

 hhh

 Why is this always the first reaction I get from people.  Or else 
 it is; can I sell them biodiesel.  you could make a fortune selling 
 that stuff Let me say this as clearly as I can.  I AM NOT IN 
 BUSINESS. I AM NOT SELLING ANYTHING.  I AM NOT TRYING TO PROFIT FROM 
 MY BIOFUEL ACTIVITIES!
 If you read my web page you would understand it is a NOT FOR PROFIT 
 ORGANIZATION.  The point of it is that I figured out early on just 
 what Kirk said.  When enough people start running BD in thier cars the 
 pressure will be on the government to put in legislation and grab a 
 slice of the pie.  By setting up the NPO and making it just a place 
 where you bring in your own oil and go away with fuel you made 
 yourself (just like home made wine) a lot of red tape is avoided.  If 
 I sell you fuel I may be liable if you have an engine problem.  If you 
 make your own you take that responsibility. A NPO avoids taxation 
 problems and a coop making fuel can avoid fuel taxes just like people 
 making wine or beer down at the local U-Brew coop avoid the liquor tax.
 It is about doing something good for the environment and the local 
 community. It is also about sticking it to the greedy bastards in the 
 oil industry. It is not about me capitalizing on my ability to build 
 reactors or modify cars to run SVO or make alternative fuels or 
 anything that I may be good at fiddling with. I don't want to become 
 one of them. I hope everyone will be able to serve their own needs 
 one day without being at the mercy of some money grubbing fear 
 mongering energy bully.

 Curently I am looking into this alternative reaction process. I am 
 still learning and documenting my progress.  I am quietly evolving my 
 processor. So far I haven't electrocuted myself or burned my house 
 down but if I do I'll take responsibility for it. If I can get rid of 
 the lye I will be whistling dixie. When I am confident about what I 
 have to offer I'll post all I have learned about what doesn't work as 
 well as what does work on my site. Will I make plans available?  
 Absolutely.  I love open source forums on the web and the idea of 
 sharing the wealth of knowledge openly. I'm not lurking here mining 
 for information so I can slink off and use it to sell a million 
 barrels of biofuel or exhorbitant skid processors for someone else to 
 do the same.  That's exactly the kind of thinking that got us in the 
 lovely situation we are in with this world and I've had enough of it.  
 No doubt some of those lurkers are shaking their heads glibly 
 snickering at my cluelesness in the ways of commerce. Whateva.

 Grrr

 Joe



 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In a message dated 9/1/2005 10:04:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Good call Kirk;

 Thats why I am setting up a non profit organization for making
 biofuel. http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca
 Power to the people man. Lucky they left a loophole for us to
 jump through eh?

 Joe

 That sounds like a wonderful idea.
 I have seen Mike's completely sealed reactor, and now you seem to 
 have one.
 Are these for sale to other states?
 Are there blueprints or something?
  
 How does someone who wants to copy you, get a processor big enough to 
 do so?
  
 Bearing in mind that I have yet to build my test processing system 
 and still waiting for the answers to some other questions so it will 
 be awhile.
  
 Do you think I should re ask my questions, or wait a bit longer first?
  
 But if it's doable, maybe I could start working on gathering a 
 co-operative of interested people to work with.
  
 Blessings
 Johanna
  
  



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Re: [Biofuel] Cohabitation

Uh, I make my own BD, I heat with wood and drive a tiny Diesel car.  
Isn't that enough in the US? ;-)

Ok, that's two!  Onward and upward!

AntiFossil wrote:

 As long as you freely admit that you're crazy, you bet you can count 
 on my vote! 

 On 8/31/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Well, at least I know I'm crazy!  Unlike, uh, our current head of
 state.
 Can I count on your vote?

 AntiFossil wrote:

  Hmm..?  Judging by how long it's taken me to get back to my
  computer, I guess I'm the slow Mike.  Nice campaign slogan there
 Mike!
 
  On 8/30/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I am the one and true Mike.  This other fellow is clearly an
 imposter.
  Do not follow false Mikes.  I personally will lead you into
  temptation.
  I am running for president.  My slogan is:
 
  Mike Weaver for president: A troubled man for troubled times.
 
  Michael Redler wrote:
 
   What!? I have kids!!?
  
   I think Doug's got the wrong Mike on that quote (as Mike
 Weaver
   already noticed).
  
   :-)
  
   Mike
  
   */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
  
   Nah, the kids have their own room.
  
   Douglas Smith wrote:
  
   Michael Redler wrote:
   
   Uh oh. I'm cohabitating illegally. Wait'll I tell my
 GF. 
   
   You know, Michael, I don't have anything against you
 and your
   girlfriend doing whatever you like in private - or
 any other
   straight
   couple - but must you flaunt it in front of the rest
 of us? The
   children might see and then we'd have to explain!
   
   (NOTE: Tongue planted firmly in cheek)
   
   Doug
   
   
   The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's
 oldest
   exercises in
   moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior
 moral
   justification for selfishness.
   - economist John Kenneth Galbraith
   
   
  snip
 
 
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  --
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  MN, USA
 
 
  For in reason, all government without the
  consent of the governed is the very definition
  of slavery:
  Jonathan Swift
 
 

 
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 -- 
 Mike K
 AntiFossil
 MN, USA

 The genius of our ruling class is that it has
 kept a majority of the people from ever
 questioning the inequity of a system where
 most people drudge along, paying heavy
 taxes for

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

OK, when you're done celebrating, you still have to figure out who "they" are. So far, you've done the equivalent of pointing at a crowd of people and calling "them" thieves because you spotted one walking out of a store with a TV.

Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!

MikeJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Garth Kim Travis wrote:Greetings,If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate. If it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate. Could you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away with whatever they feel like? No one held accountable, is this not what we complain about in our government? I did not apologize, I made sure that what I said was not being taken out of context. I have no desire to live in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.Bright Blessings,KimThank goodness for people like you! And I think you said you are Canadian which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call
a spade a spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all die of fence riding induced lethargy.Joe___
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Re: [Biofuel] A Girl Is Given an Adult Medicine and She Pays a Heavy Price

As someone who has a close relative who is a doctor, and works in a busy 
doctor's office doing their IT work, ALWAYS check the dosage and ALWAYS
ask questions.  If they don't want to answer, get another doctor.

ith Addison wrote:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/fda/lat_serzone001220.htm

Wednesday, December 20, 2000

A Girl Is Given an Adult Medicine and She Pays a Heavy Price
Serzone: Company hasn't published study of effect on children.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

Alissa Robinson, 18, looks out the front door of her family's 
Norwood, Ohio home while her parents Jimmie and Brenda enjoy a warm 
autumn afternoon on their front porch. Alissa underwent a liver 
transplant 3 years ago following complications while taking the 
anti-depressant drug Serzone.
BRIAN WALSKI / Los Angeles Times
 NORWOOD, Ohio--When a hospital psychiatrist prescribed an 
antidepressant called Serzone for their 15-year-old daughter, Jimmie 
and Brenda Robinson assumed it was safe.
 The episode in February 1997 haunts them--Alissa Robinson nearly 
died while taking Serzone. After suffering liver failure and 
undergoing a transplant, she now faces a lifetime of uncertain health 
and worry over how she will pay for her care.
 Serzone, it turns out, was not intended for children or 
adolescents, and the label said its safety and effectiveness have 
not been established among the young. However, when FDA officials 
approved Serzone in December 1994, they suspected its use would not 
be confined to adults.
 Since it is likely that [Serzone], once marketed, will be used 
in children and adolescents . . . we ask that you commit to 
conducting, subsequent to approval, studies in these populations in 
order to provide the safety and efficacy data needed to support such 
use, wrote an FDA administrator, Dr. Robert J. Temple, in a Nov. 7, 
1994, letter to Serzone's manufacturer, Bristol-Myers Squibb Co.
 The company agreed to conduct the research, among patients age 7 
to 17, and to report the results to the FDA. But nearly six years 
later, no results have been made public. Doctors may continue to 
lawfully prescribe it for any purpose they deem appropriate.
 A spokeswoman for Bristol-Myers said it hopes to report results 
to the FDA in the early part of 2002.
 In an interview at the family's home, Brenda Robinson said she 
was unaware that the FDA had not endorsed Serzone's use in 
adolescents.
 That comes as a big surprise, Brenda Robinson said. If it's 
an adult medicine, why did [the doctors] give it to her? . . . These 
drugs should be tested for the people they're going to be used in.
 Serzone has been an important drug for Bristol-Myers, generating 
sales of $1.1 billion through October, according to IMS Health, an 
information services company.
 Eighteen cases of liver failure involving Serzone patients were 
reported to the FDA from 1996 to June 2000. The product labeling was 
changed, subsequent to Alissa's use of Serzone, to note rare reports 
of liver . . . failure, in some cases leading to liver transplantion 
and/or death.
 According to an article coauthored by one of Alissa's physicians 
and published Feb. 16, 1999, in the Annals of Internal Medicine, 
Serzone was the most likely cause of her liver failure.
 For now, Alissa and her parents are left to wonder what her life 
might have been if she had not taken the drug.
 Brenda Robinson points to the maroon puke bucket, Alissa's 
constant companion in the spring of 1997. By Memorial Day weekend 
that year, three months after going on Serzone, Alissa was nauseated 
and vomiting twice or more daily, according to medical records and 
interviews. Her eyes and skin had yellowed, a sign of jaundice.
 When specialists at Children's Hospital Medical Center in 
Cincinnati admitted Alissa on June 12, they found she was suffering 
liver failure. Alissa was placed on a waiting list for a transplant. 
Amid the gantlet of tests and diagnostic procedures, Alissa's 
flowing, auburn hair was cut, her head shaven.
 That was the worst part, Brenda Robinson recalled. When she 
woke up bald . . . she went to pieces.
 The morning of June 14, Jimmie and Brenda said, one of the 
doctors told them that Alissa, by then in a coma, could die within 
days unless a donor organ came available. Brenda, an upbeat woman who 
works in the auditor's office at the local city hall, lived at her 
daughter's bedside.
 On June 16, Alissa underwent the transplant. She came this 
close to dying, Brenda recalled, struggling with her emotions at the 
memory.
 Alissa was reluctant to discuss the difficulties. But when an 
earlier portrait of her was brought to the family's kitchen table, 
she said evenly, That was in my pretty days.
 Alissa's father worries that no employer will offer her health 
insurance, that she will unable to pay for essential prescriptions 
and care. Just in the last year, Alissa was twice hospitalized:

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Greetings Joe,
Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it?  It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say:  You are judging me.  and 
I reply,  If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your 
friend?  We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

 Greetings,
 
 If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If
 it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could
 you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
 with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we
 complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that
 what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live
 in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.
 
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 


Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Oil crisis, Iraq, Bangladesh, New Orleans, Martial Law, Placing the blame.

Nope. 

Democrats = Republicans from the 50's.
Republicans = well, I'm not quite sure.  They are really two Republican 
parties they days:  The old fashioned cloth coat Republiicans, and 
this new sort of NeoCon.



Myk Hill wrote:

 What we have come to is an orginization out of control with our tax 
 dollars, might as well call it the GOP party who all said mainly the 
 same thing to get elected:
  
 Democrats = Democumists
  
 Republicans = Repubocrats
  
 It is easy to shift blame somewhere else, but the truth is who put 
 that man back in office?  We the people did with our votes and 
 blinders on.
 2008 Needs to be a year to get a third party candidate in their to 
 make the GOP sweat it out a little bit and put a better candidate up 
 there. Whether it be Constitution party, Libertarian party, Green 
 Party... any party but the GOP.
 At the risk of sounding bios, but purely as an example I was a big 
 supporter of the Constitution party.
  
 Go third parties !

 
 Find your next car at *Yahoo! Canada Autos* http://autos.yahoo.ca



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

Yeah, let's get Mel Gibson to spank 'em

Frantz DESPREZ wrote:

France must be punished
   Condie RICE
:-)
frantz

On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:

  

OK .. well .. history

New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called  
the
Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of  
trade.

But really only a port that sent goods to another land.

New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a  
population
of free black.

It also needs to be understood that the majority of those free black  
were
  

from a line of freed slaves (women) who were the contract purchased


mistresses of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their
offspring .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers  
conducting
negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible
contract to ensure their future wealth.

The whiter the skin the more desirable.

Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having  
children
fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there  
..
these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head
scarves.

I have a thing about head scarves!!

.. and .. no .. my ethnic background is  
German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a
bit of Swedish (as if a bit of anything could fit in there).

The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of
neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for  
his
contract acquired (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual
contracts .. and even if the the gentleman grew tired of his  
mistress ..
the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was  
in the
name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.

If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with  
another
woman.

New Orleans wasn't a planned neighborhood .. but historically, it  
has gain
a certain reputation of being a great place to party.

Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business
follows.

The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the  
population ..
the businesses .. and the party.

.. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the
French .. a large percentage of the free black disappeared (sold  
north)
and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.

  


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Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost

Whine whine.  At least he caught Osama Bin Laden, just like he promised.

Hakan Falk wrote:

Taryn,

You must admit that he killed many more in Iraq for the money,
he is responsible for those death also, maybe he call that
efficiency instead. More killed for the money. I can guarantee
that the pictures of devastated people that we now see from
Orleans, have been going on for many years in Iraq. So it is
not only Bush fault, he only raised the bar and achieved much
more in shorter time frame.

When media show the desperation among the Iraqi people, it
is not many who cares, maybe Orleans will create more of
compassion for the country that US occupy. The homes that
are destroyed and people killed in Iraq, are 100's times more
than Orleans.

Hakan


At 08:38 02/09/2005, you wrote:
  

Wow, nice catch Bede, Fits right in with is there blame?

I just love to blame stuff on Bush and his cronies. Except...I'm not
sure that all the kings men could have put Orleans together again.

Certainly, having pissed away the country's emergency resources, Bush
is responsible for many of the deaths in La and Ms. Kinda like stupid
kids who empty the fire extinguishers in school.  But I think Katrina,
and years of head-in-the-sand development is what drowned Orleans.

taryn
http://ornae.com/

On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Bede wrote:



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10062.htm


How New Orleans Was Lost

By Paul Craig Roberts

09/01/05 Antiwar -- -- Chalk up the city of New Orleans as a cost of
Bush's Iraq war.

There were not enough helicopters to repair the breached levees and
rescue
people trapped by rising water. Nor are there enough Louisiana National
Guardsmen available to help with rescue efforts and to patrol against
looting.

The situation is the same in Mississippi.

The National Guard and helicopters are off on a fool's mission in Iraq.

The National Guard is in Iraq because fanatical neoconservatives in
the Bush
administration were determined to invade the Middle East and because
incompetent Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld refused to listen to the
generals,
who told him there were not enough regular troops available to do the
job.

After the invasion, the arrogant Rumsfeld found out that the generals
were
right. The National Guard was called up to fill in the gaping gaps.

Now the Guardsmen, trapped in the Iraqi quagmire, are watching on TV
the
families they left behind trapped by rising waters and wondering if the
floating bodies are family members. None know where their dislocated
families are, but, shades of Fallujah, they do see their destroyed
homes.

The mayor of New Orleans was counting on helicopters to put in place
massive
sandbags to repair the levee. However, someone called the few
helicopters
away to rescue people from rooftops. The rising water overwhelmed the
massive pumping stations, and New Orleans disappeared under deep water.

What a terrible casualty of the Iraqi war  one of our oldest and most
beautiful cities, a famous city, a historic city.

Distracted by its phony war on terrorism, the U.S. government had made
no
preparations in the event Hurricane Katrina brought catastrophe to New
Orleans. No contingency plan existed. Only now after the disaster are
FEMA
and the Corps of Engineers trying to assemble the material and
equipment to
save New Orleans from the fate of Atlantis.

Even worse, articles in the New Orleans Times-Picayune and public
statements
by emergency management chiefs in New Orleans make it clear that the
Bush
administration slashed the funding for the Corps of Engineers'
projects to
strengthen and raise the New Orleans levees and diverted the money to
the
Iraq war.

Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told
the
New Orleans Times-Picayune (June 8, 2004): It appears that the money
has
been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and
the war
in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is
happy that
the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to
make the
case that this is a security issue for us.

Why can't the U.S. government focus on America's needs and leave other
countries alone? Why are American troops in Iraq instead of protecting
our
own borders from a mass invasion by illegal immigrants? Why are
American
helicopters blowing up Iraqi homes instead of saving American homes in
New
Orleans?

How can the Bush administration be so incompetent as to expose
Americans at
home to dire risks by exhausting American resources in foolish foreign
adventures? What kind of homeland security is this?

All Bush has achieved by invading Iraq is to kill and wound thousands
of
people while destroying America's reputation. The only beneficiaries
are oil
companies capitalizing on a good excuse to jack up the price of
gasoline and
Osama bin Laden's recruitment.

What we have is a Republican war for oil company profits while New
Orleans
sinks beneath the waters.

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?





It's the same world you live in Mike but some people just have the
blinders off;

Ok in a disaster of that scale how high on a list of needs is a TV
set? What would YOU call the person walking out a storefront with one?
There is a difference between compassion and blindness. If you had a
long term friend whom you discovered was a closet serial killer would
it change the friendship? Is your compassion completely
unconditional? Is it not our capacity to discriminate that empowers us
to choose who our friends are from the myriad strangers out there?
Would you choose a friend from a crowd of people walking out of a
wrecked store with merchandise while you were blindfolded? Suppose
your partner was equally indiscriminate? Would you still feel honoured
by her love? (please excuse my arbitrary assumption on the gender) Are
you going to burden yourself with the stupidity of those who will not
learn or think for themselves after they have been warned time and
again? Even a parent would not do this time and time again with their
own child, well not if they are good parents anyways. Often people
have to experience some pain in order to learn but some just never do.
They should be pitied but at some point you do have to shrug them off
your shoulder or else there will end up being so many of them on there
they will bury you alive! Sad but true nontheless. Easy to live in
this world? Just because you at some point shrug and walk on does not
mean you like to do it, or don't still wish the world was an ideal
place with ideal people who think ahead and have a sense of
accountability and stewardship for themselves their loved ones and
their circumstances. Too bad this is the real world. Too bad we are
all not the saints that you are with unlimited unconditional compassion
for those who would smile at our outstretched hands and then shoot us
in the back the first time they perceived us as an obstacle to getting
what they want. Might want to consider that along the way as I asume
you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk
the walk' and not just talk the talk.

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  
  
  OK, when you're done celebrating, you still have to figure out
who "they" are. So far, you've done the equivalent of pointing at a
crowd of people and calling "them" thieves because you spotted one
walking out of a store with a TV.
  
  Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!
  
  Mike
  
  Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I
discriminate. If 
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.
Could 
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get
away 
with whatever they feel like? No one held accountable, is this not
what we 
complain about in our government? I did not apologize, I made sure
that 
what I said was not being taken out of context. I have no desire to
live 
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim



Thank goodness for people like you! And I think you said you are
Canadian which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say
discriminate is not a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often
loath to call a spade a spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to
accountability! Godspeed you redneck angels of sanity! Come on back
home we need you here before we all die of fence riding induced
lethargy.

Joe
  
  
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost





Wow this is big news! I thought Osama was still a free agent.

Mike Weaver wrote:

  Whine whine.  At least he caught Osama Bin Laden, just like he promised.

Hakan Falk wrote:

  
  
Taryn,

You must admit that he killed many more in Iraq for the money,
he is responsible for those death also, maybe he call that
efficiency instead. More killed for the money. I can guarantee
that the pictures of devastated people that we now see from
Orleans, have been going on for many years in Iraq. So it is
not only Bush fault, he only raised the bar and achieved much
more in shorter time frame.

When media show the desperation among the Iraqi people, it
is not many who cares, maybe Orleans will create more of
compassion for the country that US occupy. The homes that
are destroyed and people killed in Iraq, are 100's times more
than Orleans.

Hakan


At 08:38 02/09/2005, you wrote:
 



  Wow, nice catch Bede, Fits right in with "is there blame?"

I just love to blame stuff on Bush and his cronies. Except...I'm not
sure that all the kings men could have put Orleans together again.

Certainly, having pissed away the country's emergency resources, Bush
is responsible for many of the deaths in La and Ms. Kinda like stupid
kids who empty the fire extinguishers in school.  But I think Katrina,
and years of head-in-the-sand development is what drowned Orleans.

taryn
http://ornae.com/

On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Bede wrote:

   

  
  
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10062.htm


How New Orleans Was Lost

By Paul Craig Roberts

09/01/05 "Antiwar" -- -- Chalk up the city of New Orleans as a cost of
Bush's Iraq war.

There were not enough helicopters to repair the breached levees and
rescue
people trapped by rising water. Nor are there enough Louisiana National
Guardsmen available to help with rescue efforts and to patrol against
looting.

The situation is the same in Mississippi.

The National Guard and helicopters are off on a fool's mission in Iraq.

The National Guard is in Iraq because fanatical neoconservatives in
the Bush
administration were determined to invade the Middle East and because
incompetent Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld refused to listen to the
generals,
who told him there were not enough regular troops available to do the
job.

After the invasion, the arrogant Rumsfeld found out that the generals
were
right. The National Guard was called up to fill in the gaping gaps.

Now the Guardsmen, trapped in the Iraqi quagmire, are watching on TV
the
families they left behind trapped by rising waters and wondering if the
floating bodies are family members. None know where their dislocated
families are, but, shades of Fallujah, they do see their destroyed
homes.

The mayor of New Orleans was counting on helicopters to put in place
massive
sandbags to repair the levee. However, someone called the few
helicopters
away to rescue people from rooftops. The rising water overwhelmed the
massive pumping stations, and New Orleans disappeared under deep water.

What a terrible casualty of the Iraqi war  one of our oldest and most
beautiful cities, a famous city, a historic city.

Distracted by its phony war on terrorism, the U.S. government had made
no
preparations in the event Hurricane Katrina brought catastrophe to New
Orleans. No contingency plan existed. Only now after the disaster are
FEMA
and the Corps of Engineers trying to assemble the material and
equipment to
save New Orleans from the fate of Atlantis.

Even worse, articles in the New Orleans Times-Picayune and public
statements
by emergency management chiefs in New Orleans make it clear that the
Bush
administration slashed the funding for the Corps of Engineers'
projects to
strengthen and raise the New Orleans levees and diverted the money to
the
Iraq war.

Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told
the
New Orleans Times-Picayune (June 8, 2004): "It appears that the money
has
been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and
the war
in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is
happy that
the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to
make the
case that this is a security issue for us."

Why can't the U.S. government focus on America's needs and leave other
countries alone? Why are American troops in Iraq instead of protecting
our
own borders from a mass invasion by illegal immigrants? Why are
American
helicopters blowing up Iraqi homes instead of saving American homes in
New
Orleans?

How can the Bush administration be so incompetent as to expose
Americans at
home to dire risks by exhausting American resources in foolish foreign
adventures? What kind of "homeland security" is this?

All Bush has achieved by invading Iraq is to kill and wound thousands
of
people while destroying America's reputation. The only beneficiaries
are oil
companies capitalizing on a good excuse to jack up the price of
gasoline and
Osama bin Laden's

Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

2005-09-02 Thread robert luis rabello

Joe Street wrote:
 Hey Brian you should look into ozone as a purifier for the water.  It is 
 not hard to generate ozone.  You do have to be careful not to breathe it 
 but It is wonderful for sanitizing water and avoids the issues of 
 chlorine.  Should be doable for a DIY project.
 
 Joe

Ozone is an effective oxidizer.  The only problem is its lack of 
residual kill power.

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread bob allen


blame Canada (terrance and phillip)




Frantz DESPREZ wrote:
 France must be punished
Condie RICE
 :-)
 frantz
 
 On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:
 
 
OK .. well .. history

New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called  
the
Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of  
trade.

But really only a port that sent goods to another land.

New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a  
population
of free black.

It also needs to be understood that the majority of those free black  
were

from a line of freed slaves (women) who were the contract purchased

mistresses of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their
offspring .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers  
conducting
negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible
contract to ensure their future wealth.

The whiter the skin the more desirable.

Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having  
children
fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there  
..
these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head
scarves.

I have a thing about head scarves!!

.. and .. no .. my ethnic background is  
German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a
bit of Swedish (as if a bit of anything could fit in there).

The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of
neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for  
his
contract acquired (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual
contracts .. and even if the the gentleman grew tired of his  
mistress ..
the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was  
in the
name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone.

If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with  
another
woman.

New Orleans wasn't a planned neighborhood .. but historically, it  
has gain
a certain reputation of being a great place to party.

Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business
follows.

The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the  
population ..
the businesses .. and the party.

.. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the
French .. a large percentage of the free black disappeared (sold  
north)
and their property somehow landed in the hands of others.

 
 
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-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

I have a lot of friends in Canada who don't think like your posts suggest and I'm grateful. I often see Canadian culture as nurturing the voice of reason (what you call fence riding).

The UShas a long history of judging people. Pearl Harbor (for example) gets bombed by Japan and Japanese-American citizens are rounded up and put in camps.

Indigenous people were judged too. There was a consensus that started with"we" couldn't trust "those savages" and now the result is hidden in plain sight by what you don't see inphone books.

Sayinga thief is a thief, a liar is a liar and so on isn't the issue. What is disturbing to me is how quickly you point your finger and without any hesitation, apply a label and with it, a judgment with no interest in researching the matter any further.

"I have no desire to live in a world where people are no accountable for what they do."

More generalizations: The phantom of "people" and "they" continuously appear in your posts.

"...no accountable for what they do."

etc, etc, etc.

Statements about people who may or may not exist, doing thingsof which you may or may not have an understanding and expressing anger and frustration about events that may or may not have occurred by people who's motives you may not know about.

You seem to know exactly who "they" are and I'm waiting for you to tell me.

Mike
Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Greetings Joe,Thank you. Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it? It is easy to understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.I have had friends look at me startled and say: "You are judging me." and I reply, " If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your friend?" We make judgements all the time.I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no accountability.Bright Blessings,KimAt 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:___
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread robert luis rabello

Michael Redler wrote:

 I have a lot of friends in Canada who don't think like your posts 
 suggest and I'm grateful. I often see Canadian culture as nurturing the 
 voice of reason (what you call fence riding).

Many Canadians DO think of themselves as a voice of reason.  Kim has 
pointed out in the past, however, that there's a lot of apathy up here 
too.

  
 The US has a long history of judging people. Pearl Harbor (for example) 
 gets bombed by Japan and Japanese-American citizens are rounded up and 
 put in camps.

The same thing happened in British Columbia.  Racism transcends 
national boundaries.

 Indigenous people were judged too. There was a consensus that started 
 with we couldn't trust those savages and now the result is hidden in 
 plain sight by what you don't see in phone books.
  
 Saying a thief is a thief, a liar is a liar and so on isn't the issue. 
 What is disturbing to me is how quickly you point your finger and 
 without any hesitation, apply a label and with it, a judgment with no 
 interest in researching the matter any further.

We are all people who carry flaws.  Sometimes we say or write things 
impulsively.  Any one of us, subjected to close enough scrutiny, would 
qualify for criticism.  Let's drop the rocks and roll up our sleeves 
to get some work done.




robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?





Hi Kim;

I always enjoy reading your posts. I wish you didn't live so far
away. I think you are in West Texas or New Mexico? Sounds like your
place would be a marvel to visit and if I ever get down that way again
I would defininitely like to meet you and Garth. I know exactly what
you mean about that reaction from your friend. I have had the same
thing. People with your attiude are few and far apart these days it
seems. Accountability is out of fashion with the sheeple for some
strange reason.

Best regards
Joe 

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

  Greetings Joe,
Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it?  It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say:  "You are judging me."  and 
I reply, " If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your 
friend?"  We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:


  
  
Garth  Kim Travis wrote:



  Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

  


Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

OK Joe, here we go.

"I asume you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk the walk' and not just talk the talk."

You've given me an exellent example to prove my point.

This reaction from you implies that either:

a.) Ifalsely statedthat I'm involved in the rescue effort

b.) I "judged" you for not being involved enough

...niether of which has happened.

Yet without anything to support it, you passed judgement on me.

What makes this statement even more rediculous is that the issue of passing judgement and holding people "accountable" is independent of where and when it might be happening.

Mike
Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's the same world you live in Mike but some people just have the blinders off;Ok in a disaster of that scale how high on a list of needs is a TV set? What would YOU call the person walking out a storefront with one? There is a difference between compassion and blindness. If you had a long term friend whom you discovered was a closet serial killer would it change the friendship? Is your compassion completely unconditional? Is it not our capacity to discriminate that empowers us to choose who our friends are from the myriad strangers out there? Would you choose a friend from a crowd of people walking out of a wrecked store with merchandise while you were blindfolded? Suppose your partner was equally indiscriminate? Would you still feel honoured by her love? (please excuse my arbitrary assumption on the gender) Are you going to
burden yourself with the stupidity of those who will not learn or think for themselves after they have been warned time and again? Even a parent would not do this time and time again with their own child, well not if they are good parents anyways. Often people have to experience some pain in order to learn but some just never do. They should be pitied but at some point you do have to shrug them off your shoulder or else there will end up being so many of them on there they will bury you alive! Sad but true nontheless. Easy to live in this world? Just because you at some point shrug and walk on does not mean you like to do it, or don't still wish the world was an ideal place with ideal people who think ahead and have a sense of accountability and stewardship for themselves their loved ones and their circumstances. Too bad this is the real world. Too bad we are all not the saints that you are with unlimited unconditional compassion for those
who would smile at our outstretched hands and then shoot us in the back the first time they perceived us as an obstacle to getting what they want. Might want to consider that along the way as I asume you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk the walk' and not just talk the talk.JoeMichael Redler wrote:

Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!

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Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost

2005-09-02 Thread John Mullan

Hopefully we can keep this discussion civilized, Mike, but I wouldn't
consider Hakan to be whining.

Human nature often takes the stance what is good for me is fair.  What
is not good for me is not fair.  If the Iraqis were over here
promising to capture Bush, and did so, would you feel the same?

A couple decades ago I used to believe that what happened in the Eastern
Hemisphere is fine, just keep it over there.  And what happened on this
side is fine, just keep it here.  Nobody should impress their own values
and practices on another.

But these days, everything seems to have global ramifications.  Global
warmning, Peak Oil.  So I can see that folks on the eastern side of the
pond get irritated when the westerners use more than then their fair
share of fossil fuels and pollute the globe more than any others? 
Should be force the rest of the planet to suffer for our glutteny?

My two cents.  Have at as you will.

Cheers,
John


On 9/2/2005, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Whine whine.  At least he caught Osama Bin Laden, just like he promised.

Hakan Falk wrote:

Taryn,

You must admit that he killed many more in Iraq for the money,
he is responsible for those death also, maybe he call that
efficiency instead. More killed for the money. I can guarantee
that the pictures of devastated people that we now see from
Orleans, have been going on for many years in Iraq. So it is
not only Bush fault, he only raised the bar and achieved much
more in shorter time frame.

When media show the desperation among the Iraqi people, it
is not many who cares, maybe Orleans will create more of
compassion for the country that US occupy. The homes that
are destroyed and people killed in Iraq, are 100's times more
than Orleans.

Hakan


At 08:38 02/09/2005, you wrote:
  

Wow, nice catch Bede, Fits right in with is there blame?

I just love to blame stuff on Bush and his cronies. Except...I'm not
sure that all the kings men could have put Orleans together again.

Certainly, having pissed away the country's emergency resources, Bush
is responsible for many of the deaths in La and Ms. Kinda like stupid
kids who empty the fire extinguishers in school.  But I think Katrina,
and years of head-in-the-sand development is what drowned Orleans.

taryn
http://ornae.com/

On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Bede wrote:



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10062.htm


How New Orleans Was Lost

By Paul Craig Roberts

09/01/05 Antiwar -- -- Chalk up the city of New Orleans as a cost of
Bush's Iraq war.

There were not enough helicopters to repair the breached levees and
rescue
people trapped by rising water. Nor are there enough Louisiana National
Guardsmen available to help with rescue efforts and to patrol against
looting.

The situation is the same in Mississippi.

The National Guard and helicopters are off on a fool's mission in Iraq.

The National Guard is in Iraq because fanatical neoconservatives in
the Bush
administration were determined to invade the Middle East and because
incompetent Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld refused to listen to the
generals,
who told him there were not enough regular troops available to do the
job.

After the invasion, the arrogant Rumsfeld found out that the generals
were
right. The National Guard was called up to fill in the gaping gaps.

Now the Guardsmen, trapped in the Iraqi quagmire, are watching on TV
the
families they left behind trapped by rising waters and wondering if the
floating bodies are family members. None know where their dislocated
families are, but, shades of Fallujah, they do see their destroyed
homes.

The mayor of New Orleans was counting on helicopters to put in place
massive
sandbags to repair the levee. However, someone called the few
helicopters
away to rescue people from rooftops. The rising water overwhelmed the
massive pumping stations, and New Orleans disappeared under deep water.

What a terrible casualty of the Iraqi war  one of our oldest and most
beautiful cities, a famous city, a historic city.

Distracted by its phony war on terrorism, the U.S. government had made
no
preparations in the event Hurricane Katrina brought catastrophe to New
Orleans. No contingency plan existed. Only now after the disaster are
FEMA
and the Corps of Engineers trying to assemble the material and
equipment to
save New Orleans from the fate of Atlantis.

Even worse, articles in the New Orleans Times-Picayune and public
statements
by emergency management chiefs in New Orleans make it clear that the
Bush
administration slashed the funding for the Corps of Engineers'
projects to
strengthen and raise the New Orleans levees and diverted the money to
the
Iraq war.

Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told
the
New Orleans Times-Picayune (June 8, 2004): It appears that the money
has
been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and
the war
in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is
happy that
the levees can't be

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina, who's to blame

2005-09-02 Thread Marty Phee

What's driving me nuts is what means were given to evacuate people?

I heard the mayor talking on CNN last night and how he pleaded with 
people to leave.  Did he provide any kind of transportation?  The are 
many dirt poor people in that area that more than likely didn't have 
the means to move.  I had family down there and fortuantly they had the 
means.  Some went to Dallas, others to Mobile and yet some to Atlanta.

What about the people who didn't have the means?  You can't out walk a 
hurricane.

You also talk about people taking responsibility.  I totally agree, but 
the govt share's in the respect.  Why were wet lands allowed to be 
drained for new developments?  Why are new developments allowed built in 
areas that are know to be problems?

Why is it only now that people realize the extent of the disaster?  We 
have the organization, FEMA, who responsibility this is.  Something as 
stupid as relying on cell phones for communications.  Hell, I can't even 
count on my cell phone working in my office let alone in a national 
disaster.


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

 Greetings Keith,

 I had to read you reply several times, for it to sink in.  I am having 
 trouble believing that you could equate the comments being made about 
 New Orleans with people in Bangledesh.  As you point out later in your 
 message, New Orleans is in one of the richest countries in the world, 
 where no one has to live in a dangerous area if they choose not to.  
 We have the wealth to move around, even the poorest of us, given 
 enough time.  We have plenty of ways of being warned of a coming 
 disaster, we have so many things that the people of Bangledesh don't 
 have, that I don't see the two as equal.

 As far as I have been able to find out, there were no long lines of 
 hitchhikers trying to leave New Orleans.  And yes, I have talked to 
 people that got out.  Katrina did visit me, but I was on the fringe so 
 no damage, just much need moisture.

 If the richest countries do such a poor job of protecting their 
 people, especially their children, then what kind of example do we 
 set?  I have been through natural disasters in other places, but I 
 have never been angry with the people before.  While I was in New 
 Orleans, the people told us about the city being a giant bath tub that 
 would fill with water, and laughed about it.  The city was growing, 
 not shrinking even though they knew they were a disaster waiting to 
 happen.  There are many factors that make this disaster very different 
 from others.

 The human race needs to be much more responsible for their actions.  
 The wealthy among us need to be held even more responsible, since we 
 have a choice.  And looking at it from a global view point, that is 
 every person in Canada and the US.

 Bright Blessings,
 Kim




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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread je.howard

I just got it. The less we hold people accountable for there own actions, the 
more we can blame the administration for all their troubles. Makes perfect 
sense to me.

Jeff


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?




There is an ant and the grasshopper thing 
going on here.
Yes in the story, the grasshopper ends up 
singing for his supper, but, what do we do in 
the real world?

Now, I'm not saying that all of the people 
in NO are bad and I agree that the people need help, but, how doyou help, 
without rewarding, the bad behavior of the people that are doing the bad 
things?


In the news reports I have seen, the people 
just don't know what to do.

It is said that just sitting around doing 
nothing, but, thinking how bad things are,is psychologically bad. 


Do you start forming work groups, to start 
cleaning up the mess or handing out supplies,thus helping the people to 
help themselves?

Greg H.



  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 
  7:04
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New 
  Orleans. Is There Blame?
  
  
  
  Being apologetic doesn't change the fact that these kinds of 
  generalizationsexpress a kind of discrimination that, at best has no 
  value and at worst becomes the seed for something worse.
  
  MikeGarth  Kim Travis 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Greetings,No 
one but you has brought up any stereo types. If you honestly believe 
that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent 
bystander, then enjoy your rose colored glasses. Most of us feel anger 
that children died because their parents would not heed warnings. We 
never said that every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything 
like that. However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect 
others to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves. It is 
sad that their children have paid an ultimate price for their 
behavior.Bright Blessings,Kim
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] FDA Minimized Issue of Lotronex's Safety

2005-09-02 Thread Marty Phee

They chose a paid consultant to Glaxo to serve with an 
advisory committee that recommended approval of the drug.

Who do you think advises the govt on many critical issues?  Many govt 
organizations who make decisions for us have corporations on the boards.


Keith Addison wrote:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/updates2/lat_lotronex001102.htm
Thursday, November 2, 2000

FDA Minimized Issue of Lotronex's Safety
  Health: Times study finds officials sided with drug maker on 
regulatory concerns. Agency reevaluation is underway.

By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 WASHINGTON--In the drug's first eight months on the market, five 
people who took it died. Several others underwent bowel 
surgeries--one had a colon removed. A total of 49 patients developed 
ischemic colitis, a potentially life-threatening complication.
 As a result, the Food and Drug Administration is now 
reevaluating the safety of Lotronex, a drug intended to treat women 
with a nonfatal disorder, irritable bowel syndrome. But a Los Angeles 
Times investigation of the FDA's handling of Lotronex found that over 
the last year agency officials repeatedly played down questions about 
the drug's safety while siding with the manufacturer, Glaxo Wellcome 
Inc., in important regulatory decisions.
  



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Re: [Biofuel] Risk Was Known as FDA OKd Fatal Drug

2005-09-02 Thread Nancy Canning

//are there still people out there who believe in 
FDA?\
The world is based on money and greed, Satan favorites', the father of lies 
and deceit.  There are alternatives to the worldly ways. Acts 2:38




- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 8:40 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Risk Was Known as FDA OKd Fatal Drug


 http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/reports/rezulin/
 Los Angeles Times Special Reports: Rezulin
 Sunday, March 11, 2001

 Risk Was Known as FDA OKd Fatal Drug
 Study: New documents show Warner-Lambert trivialized liver toxicity
 of diabetes pill Rezulin while seeking federal approval. Inside help
 from senior regulators is trumpeted in company memos.

 By DAVID WILLMAN, Times Staff Writer

 WASHINGTON--Executives of the Warner-Lambert Co. brimmed with
 confidence as they marched the now-discredited diabetes pill Rezulin
 toward government approval in the mid-1990s. And with good reason,
 according to newly obtained company and government documents.
 As portrayed in the records, officials of the Food and Drug
 Administration provided Warner-Lambert with inside information and
 favors at critical moments throughout the development and marketing
 of Rezulin. At least one senior manager believed that if an FDA
 medical officer who had questioned the drug's safety and
 effectiveness didn't please the company, he would be out. Soon
 enough, he was, prompting another executive to report internally that
 a hurdle had been cleared for Rezulin.
 The records also shed new light on the state of knowledge within
 Warner-Lambert of Rezulin's potential danger: Executives knew that
 patients who took the drug in clinical studies had suffered
 life-threatening liver damage--yet the company assured an FDA panel
 that the risk was trivial.
 The company's assurances helped win swift approval for Rezulin
 four years ago from the FDA. The drug was withdrawn in March of last
 year after being cited as the suspect in 391 deaths, including 63
 that involved liver failure. Rezulin generated sales of $2.1 billion.
 The new documents, which have been kept from public view by
 court orders or by the FDA, were obtained by The Times. The internal
 memos and e-mails provide an intimate view of how a company seeking a
 blockbuster drug collaborated closely with the public health agency
 responsible for ensuring that medicines are proved safe and effective.
 The FDA's collaborative role with Warner-Lambert began at the
 same time that the agency was being urged by Congress and the White
 House to function less as an adversary and more as a partner of the
 $100-billion pharmaceutical industry.
 This transformation of the FDA, first evident in the streamlined
 approvals of experimental AIDS drugs, opened a regulatory door.
 Pharmaceutical companies pushed for similarly rapid consideration of
 a wide range of remedies, regardless of whether the products offered
 lifesaving benefits.
 In Rezulin, the FDA was faced with a drug that had not been
 proved to save lives or to reduce the serious complications of
 adult-onset diabetes.
 It was against this backdrop that Warner-Lambert's vice
 president for diabetes research, Dr. Randall W. Whitcomb, told an FDA
 advisory committee on Dec. 11, 1996, that occurrences of liver injury
 among Rezulin patients were comparable to placebo in the clinical
 studies. In fact, the incidence among patients who took the drug was
 well over three times higher than for those given placebo pills.
 Among those patients who took Rezulin, 2.2% experienced liver
 injury, compared with 0.6% for those who took the placebo.
 In a recent sworn deposition for lawsuits brought by plaintiffs
 from Texas, Missouri and West Virginia, Whitcomb defended his earlier
 characterizations.
  'Comparable' is, is, you know, is an interesting word,
 Whitcomb testified. Is 2.2% different than 0.6%? . . . I think you
 could look at 2.2 and 0.6 and say that those are similar numbers, you
 know, when you look at this now. I mean, 'similar' is a--is a very
 broad term. . . . I don't think that these numbers are, are all that
 different.

 Liver Monitoring Label Is Abandoned
 But the newly obtained documents reveal that concern about liver
 toxicity within Warner-Lambert was such that the company prepared a
 label for the drug in 1996 recommending that patients should be
 monitored at 3 months then every 6 months.
 The company abandoned the recommendation for liver monitoring
 before seeking the FDA advisory committee's endorsement in December
 1996. Such a condition would have drastically reduced Rezulin's sales
 potential, according to doctors who point out that at least nine
 other less-risky diabetes drugs were available.
 Warner-Lambert did not publicly recommend liver monitoring for
 Rezulin patients until late October 1997--and then only after the

Re: [Biofuel] How a policy led to seven deadly drugs

2005-09-02 Thread Myk Hill

Maybe it is just me, but it seems that I have seen more advertising for FDA approved drugs and with that more class action lawsuits on drug companies then I do herbal companies or natural remedy type's.

With either product though people do not take precautions due to lack of education from the providers and censorship from government. another words take a smaller amount and if something don't feel right, STOP TAKING IT, then look for another alternative.
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Re: [Biofuel] rockets, turbines and compressed air..was..[DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like totry something...but first, your opinions (please).

Let me guess, potassium chlorate and sugar, cooked like candy to the hard
crack stage on a candy thermometer?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 15:26
Subject: [Biofuel] rockets,turbines and compressed
air..was..[DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like totry something...but first, your
opinions (please).

 Hi all,

 I used to be fascinated by this stuff when I was a kid and
 used to do a lot of pyro with building solid fuel model rockets.
 My friends and I would mix the materials on the kitchen stove
 and pour the molten fuel into cardboard tubes to harden around
 an cone shape at the bottom of the tube.

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Re: [Biofuel] Oil crisis, Iraq, Bangladesh, New Orleans, Martial Law, Placing the blame.

2005-09-02 Thread Juan Gutierrez

I am with you

From: Myk Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Oil crisis, Iraq, Bangladesh, New Orleans, Martial 
Law,Placing the blame.
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:38:57 -0400 (EDT)

What we have come to is an orginization out of control with our tax 
dollars, might as well call it the GOP party who all said mainly the same 
thing to get elected:

Democrats = Democumists

Republicans = Repubocrats

It is easy to shift blame somewhere else, but the truth is who put that man 
back in office?  We the people did with our votes and blinders on.
2008 Needs to be a year to get a third party candidate in their to make the 
GOP sweat it out a little bit and put a better candidate up there. Whether 
it be Constitution party, Libertarian party, Green Party... any party but 
the GOP.
At the risk of sounding bios, but purely as an example I was a big 
supporter of the Constitution party.

Go third parties !

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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

2005-09-02 Thread Ron Waugh

Interesing that you brought up silver. it is a natural antibiotic. It kills
over 600 nasty things. I take silver water when ever I fell something coming
on and It zaps it right out of me. I have not been sick in years. Look at
www.silver medicine.org for more info.

Levi
- Original Message - 
From: TarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

 Hi, Kim

 I think that both HO and chlorine act as oxidizers, providing similar
 sanitizing effects, but I'm awfully rusty. Oh! Accidental pun, my
 favorite kind!

 And here in florida they use copper compounds to reduce algae growth in
 slow moving waters. As I seem to recall people tossing a few pennies in
 their mood fountains to keep the water clear.

 Sorry to hear about your allergies. I take a middle ground on lots of
 organic/synthetic issues but I've friends who've become wildly
 sensitized.

 Taryn

 On Sep 1, 2005, at 7:04 PM, Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

  Greetings,

  I was suggesting an alternative for those whose health is of vital
  importance, to them.  I am fighting hard to prevent myself from
  becoming
  totally chemically sensitive, so I can still have a life.  Many of the
  things our government says are safe are responsible for people becoming
  like I am, allergic to everything.

  If it is too much bother to find out how to use alternatives, then so
  be
  it.  No need to ridicule the information.

  Bright Blessings,
  Kim

  At 05:39 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:
  at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe?  At what
  concentration is
  chlorine bleach unsafe?
  also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what
  concentration is
  chlorine ineffective
  against what organisms?  viruses? bacteria? cryptosporidium? giradia?
  amoeba? nematodes? etc.

  darn, things can get complex in a hurry if you think about it.  sorry

  Garth  Kim Travis wrote:
  Greetings,
  Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water
  fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young
  girls and
  child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
  Bright Blessings,
  Kim

  At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:

  Thanks for the info Emil.
  I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another
  thread.
  Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
  We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in
  an
  emergency.
  Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
  It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
  Better safe than sorry.
  Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina, who's to blame

Greetings Kim

Greetings Keith,

I had to read you reply several times, for it to sink in.

I don't think it did sink in very well.

I am having trouble believing that you could equate the comments 
being made about New Orleans with people in Bangledesh.

I didn't equate them, I compared them.

As you point out later in your message, New Orleans is in one of the 
richest countries in the world, where no one has to live in a 
dangerous area if they choose not to.  We have the wealth to move 
around, even the poorest of us, given enough time.  We have plenty 
of ways of being warned of a coming disaster, we have so many things 
that the people of Bangledesh don't have, that I don't see the two 
as equal.

First you say equate the comments being made then you say see the 
two as equal. I doubt anyone sees them as equal. I provided data 
showing some of the ways in which they are not equal.

As far as I have been able to find out, there were no long lines of 
hitchhikers trying to leave New Orleans.  And yes, I have talked to 
people that got out.  Katrina did visit me, but I was on the fringe 
so no damage, just much need moisture. 

If the richest countries do such a poor job of protecting their 
people, especially their children, then what kind of example do we 
set?

This kind of example, to be kind about it? Posted yesterday:

2) Three decades of shortfalls in promised annual official aid to
poor countries is made worse by the diluted definition of aid.  It
is some 35 years since developed countries promised and were
obligated to deliver 0.7% of their gross national income as foreign
assistance.  It was agreed to deliver on this by the mid 1970s.
There been a large annual shortfall each year since.  The European
Union, for example are aiming to reach 0.7% as a whole by 2015, some
40 years after it was meant to be delivered!  Furthermore, the
definition of what constitutes foreign aid has changed to include
items not related to the original goal of long term development,
thus diluting aid effectiveness even further.  More information on
the history and the diluted definition of aid was added to
this page http://globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

I'm surprised that you still talk about the US and the rich countries 
setting an example.

I have been through natural disasters in other places, but I have 
never been angry with the people before.  While I was in New 
Orleans, the people told us about the city being a giant bath tub 
that would fill with water, and laughed about it.  The city was 
growing, not shrinking even though they knew they were a disaster 
waiting to happen.  There are many factors that make this disaster 
very different from others.

All disasters are different from others, and every community has its rats.

About 17 million people live their lives and go about their daily 
business in Los Angeles despite the earthquake risk, 35 million 
people in Tokyo go about their lives with probably an even worse 
earthquake risk, are they being irresponsible?

The human race needs to be much more responsible for their actions. 
The wealthy among us need to be held even more responsible, since we 
have a choice.  And looking at it from a global view point, that is 
every person in Canada and the US.

Huh? Sorry, you lost me there with the last bit. Anyway, how about 
being responsible not only for your  actions but for their 
consequences too, especially when they land on other people? Which 
brings us back to Bangladesh. Why wasn't there as much discussion of 
that as there is of this? If what you say about being held 
responsible is true, then why do the wealthy among us pay so much 
more attention to their own disasters than to those they help bring 
upon others? Hakan said: When media show the desperation among the 
Iraqi people, it is not many who cares, maybe Orleans will create 
more of compassion for the country that US occupy. But I don't see 
many signs of that in this discussion, do you?

The world's mass media are Western-dominated, and everywhere they're 
controlled by elites (with many honorable exceptions). Coverage of 
disasters depends on, first, obviously, proximity of the disaster to 
the readership, fair enough, the scale of the disaster, also fair 
enough, and the wealth and influence of the victim community, which 
is not fair enough. It's not fair enough here either, nor is it 
representative. Not enough Think globally, and without it the local 
focus risks being narrow and parochial.

I do wish the large list membership in the global South would be a 
little more vocal, really I do, though I do understand some of the 
reasons they're not.

Best wishes

Keith


Bright Blessings,
Kim


snip

replace:

Taryn,

You must admit that he killed many more in Iraq for the money,
he is responsible for those death also, maybe he call that
efficiency instead. More killed for the money. I can guarantee
that the pictures of devastated people that we now see from
Orleans, have

Re: [Biofuel] Drying ethanol

2005-09-02 Thread Tom Irwin





Hi Manick,

Although I am an American, I live in Uruguay. There is no access to ethanol vehicles here as yet. Diesel vehicles definitely are available though heavily taxed. Plus this fits my overall scheme for making BioD in sufficient quantities to power an electric generator, my car and ultimately my tractor. The waste heat from the generator will heat hot water for house use and it's heating system. I'm lining up waste oil suppliers so I can have about 2000 or more liters per year available.The money I hope to save doing this will be put into the organic farm on high ground just outside the city. That's it in a nutshell.

Tom Irwin


From: Manick Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 02:21:06 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Drying ethanol
Yes, after making temperature correction for waterat 25-30C I get 0.785 which is very near literature value of 0.7893 for ethanol andpure enough for mixing. Could you please enlighten me why you did not opt for E85 auto which I understand is available in USA?Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Thanks Manick,

I just ran a density test. I got 0.7824g/cc vs. .7893g/cc from my CRC handbook. The original material is .7924g/cc. That's about a 10 or 12 % removal. with some slop for my measuring technique this might be good stuff. I'll try mixing it with gasolene next. Thanks all. 

Tom Irwin



From: Manick Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:00:26 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Drying ethanol
Hello Tom,
May I offer unorthodox solution? Try to measure the specific gravity and density using specific gravity bottle. If it matches sg of pure ethanol you are there for practical purposes, unless you are aiming for AR quality..Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi All,

I finally found a source of 3A molecular sieve. It´s been sitting in 95% ethanol overnight. How do I test the ethanol to see if I removed the 5% water? Simple mass balance? I don´t have a Karl Fisher titrator. BTW, I used the recommended 250 grams of 3A per liter of ethanol.

Thanks,

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Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost

Hopefully we can keep this discussion civilized, Mike, but I wouldn't
consider Hakan to be whining.

In the interests of keeping it civilised, I must say I enjoyed Mike's 
message, he does a good line in industrial-strength irony. I hope 
Hakan enjoyed it too.

For the rest, John, of course I agree with you, can't be said often 
enough, IMHO.

Best wishes

Keith


Human nature often takes the stance what is good for me is fair.  What
is not good for me is not fair.  If the Iraqis were over here
promising to capture Bush, and did so, would you feel the same?

A couple decades ago I used to believe that what happened in the Eastern
Hemisphere is fine, just keep it over there.  And what happened on this
side is fine, just keep it here.  Nobody should impress their own values
and practices on another.

But these days, everything seems to have global ramifications.  Global
warmning, Peak Oil.  So I can see that folks on the eastern side of the
pond get irritated when the westerners use more than then their fair
share of fossil fuels and pollute the globe more than any others?
Should be force the rest of the planet to suffer for our glutteny?

My two cents.  Have at as you will.

Cheers,
John


On 9/2/2005, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Whine whine.  At least he caught Osama Bin Laden, just like he promised.
 
 Hakan Falk wrote:
 
 Taryn,
 
 You must admit that he killed many more in Iraq for the money,
 he is responsible for those death also, maybe he call that
 efficiency instead. More killed for the money. I can guarantee
 that the pictures of devastated people that we now see from
 Orleans, have been going on for many years in Iraq. So it is
 not only Bush fault, he only raised the bar and achieved much
 more in shorter time frame.
 
 When media show the desperation among the Iraqi people, it
 is not many who cares, maybe Orleans will create more of
 compassion for the country that US occupy. The homes that
 are destroyed and people killed in Iraq, are 100's times more
 than Orleans.
 
 Hakan
 
 
 At 08:38 02/09/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 Wow, nice catch Bede, Fits right in with is there blame?
 
 I just love to blame stuff on Bush and his cronies. Except...I'm not
 sure that all the kings men could have put Orleans together again.
 
 Certainly, having pissed away the country's emergency resources, Bush
 is responsible for many of the deaths in La and Ms. Kinda like stupid
 kids who empty the fire extinguishers in school.  But I think Katrina,
 and years of head-in-the-sand development is what drowned Orleans.
 
 taryn
 http://ornae.com/
 
 On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Bede wrote:
 
 
 
 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10062.htm
 
 
 How New Orleans Was Lost
 
 By Paul Craig Roberts
 
 09/01/05 Antiwar -- -- Chalk up the city of New Orleans as a cost of
 Bush's Iraq war.

snip


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[Biofuel] Preparation of ethanol from molasses

List member Manick Harris in Malaysia recently mentioned a method of 
producing ethanol from molasses, but the list server wouldn't accept 
the accompanying diagram (no attachments).

We've uploaded both the diagram and Manick's description at Journey to Forever:

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_molasses.html
Preparation of ethanol from molasses

Very interesting: it describes a method of immobilising the yeast 
culture in latex for the fermenting process. You can keep using the 
same culture for six months in non-sterile conditions. Yields were 
high.

Manick says he's willing to help anyone undertaking the project.

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/

 

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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..





Right so you throw a chunk of silver in your cistern and put an
ozonizer or UV in the delivery line close to the point of use. I
learned how to make colloidal silver back around 1997 and it is amazing
stuff. I had a friend with a freshwater fish tank that was having
problems with fish dying from some bacteria or fungus. I told him
about silver and he threw a chunk of silver cut from a 1 oz bar into
the tank and that was the end of the problem. At home in my water
treatment system (yes I don't trust the municipality to get it right) I
have a combination of elements including a membrane, and UV
sterilizer. I noticed during maintenance that some of the filters in
the system downstream of the activated carbon (which removes the
chlorine) and upstream of the UV would get a clear slimy coating gowing
over the filter media over time. I threw a chunk of silver into the
housings and the slime never returned. A large cistern with a couple of
pure silver bars in it with just a hundred microamps flowing between
them should keep the water fresh. Making colloidal silver uses more
like 20 miliamps for a short period of time and you need to make sure
the silver is at least 99.9 % pure or better if possible. You need to
start with distilled water to avoid creating silver compounds
electrochemically. Use current regulation rather than voltage
regulation and the process is optimized by the addition of ultrasonic
energy to keep the nanoscale particles from adhering to the
electrodes.An old ultrasonic humidifier works well for this. Put water
in the transducer well and sit a mason jar into the well with your
distilled water in it. The ultrasonics couple right through the glass
of the jar into your forming colloid quite nicely. Afterwards although
the water won't look any different to the naked eye, the beam from a
laser pointer will be clearly visible in the water which will not be
the case in distilled or DI water. Adding just a few drops of the
colloid to a vase with cut flowers will keep the water from going
putrid until long after the flowers are gone. I had carnations in a
mason jar of tap water (chlorine removed) with a teaspoon of colloid
added, for over a month! Get a nasal sprayer and dump out the
addictive antihisamine crap, rinse it out and put silver colloid in.
Whenever a sore throat comes on at the first sign, spray the back of
the throat and nasal passages and conserve your energy while your
immune system gears up. This is better than drinking colloid which I
don't recommend and only uses a few drops per application which you do
as needed. I have done this countless times and the cold never develops
beyond a little throat irritation unless I am burning the candle at
both ends and not resting. Great stuff! 


Joe

robert luis rabello wrote:

  Joe Street wrote:
  
  
Hey Brian you should look into ozone as a purifier for the water.  It is 
not hard to generate ozone.  You do have to be careful not to breathe it 
but It is wonderful for sanitizing water and avoids the issues of 
chlorine.  Should be doable for a DIY project.

Joe

  
  
	Ozone is an effective oxidizer.  The only problem is its lack of 
residual kill power.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?





Ok well for what it's worh your statment at a) is wrong;

I didn't judge that you stated you were involved or not involved. What
I said was if you have such unconditional compassion you SHOULD be
going to do something otherwise what does that make you?

And your statement at b) is wrong;

The thought never occured to me to guess how you might judge me in fact
if I was to assume anything I would assume that you would not judge me
at all because you seem to be a non judgmental type of fellow.

Anyways I am going to end this debate which is somewhat pointless and
is taking up bandwidth and wasting space on the archive. If it did
continue I predict that it might go on at some length and become heated
at which point if I backed you into a corner with logic to an
appropriate extent YOU would eventually write ME off as an intractible
A-hole ironically committing the very sin of passing judgement that you
seem to be condemning some people for. Lets just agree to disagree and
leave it at that.

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  OK Joe, here we go.
  
  "I asume you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage
zone to 'walk the walk' and not just talk the talk."
  
  You've given me an exellent example to prove my point.
  
  This reaction from you implies that either:
  
  a.) Ifalsely statedthat I'm involved in the rescue effort
  
  b.) I "judged" you for not being involved enough
  
  ...niether of which has happened.
  
  Yet without anything to support it, you passed judgement on me.
  
  What makes this statement even more rediculous is that the issue
of passing judgement and holding people "accountable" is independent of
where and when it might be happening.
  
  Mike
  
  Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  It's
the same world you live in Mike but some people just have the blinders
off;

Ok in a disaster of that scale how high on a list of needs is a TV
set? What would YOU call the person walking out a storefront with one?
There is a difference between compassion and blindness. If you had a
long term friend whom you discovered was a closet serial killer would
it change the friendship? Is your compassion completely
unconditional? Is it not our capacity to discriminate that empowers us
to choose who our friends are from the myriad strangers out there?
Would you choose a friend from a crowd of people walking out of a
wrecked store with merchandise while you were blindfolded? Suppose
your partner was equally indiscriminate? Would you still feel honoured
by her love? (please excuse my arbitrary assumption on the gender) Are
you going to burden yourself with the stupidity of those who will not
learn or think for themselves after they have been warned time and
again? Even a parent would not do this time and time again with their
own child, well not if they are good parents anyways. Often people
have to experience some pain in order to learn but some just never do.
They should be pitied but at some point you do have to shrug them off
your shoulder or else there will end up being so many of them on there
they will bury you alive! Sad but true nontheless. Easy to live in
this world? Just because you at some point shrug and walk on does not
mean you like to do it, or don't still wish the world was an ideal
place with ideal people who think ahead and have a sense of
accountability and stewardship for themselves their loved ones and
their circumstances. Too bad this is the real world. Too bad we are
all not the saints that you are with unlimited unconditional compassion
for those who would smile at our outstretched hands and then shoot us
in the back the first time they perceived us as an obstacle to getting
what they want. Might want to consider that along the way as I asume
you are writing from your laptop enroute to the damage zone to 'walk
the walk' and not just talk the talk.

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  
  
  OK, when you're done celebrating, you still have to figure
out who "they" are. So far, you've done the equivalent of pointing at a
crowd of people and calling "them" thieves because you spotted one
walking out of a store with a TV.
  
  Oh how easy it must be to live in your world!
  
  Mike
  
  
  
  

  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

2005-09-02 Thread bob allen

you too can be blue:

http://homepages.together.net/~rjstan/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2297471.stm


silver works in vitro but there is scant evidence from controlled 
studies that it does much, if anything in vivo.


Ron Waugh wrote:
 Interesing that you brought up silver. it is a natural antibiotic. It kills
 over 600 nasty things. I take silver water when ever I fell something coming
 on and It zaps it right out of me. I have not been sick in years. Look at
 www.silver medicine.org for more info.
 
 Levi
 - Original Message - 
 From: TarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..
 
 
 
Hi, Kim

I think that both HO and chlorine act as oxidizers, providing similar
sanitizing effects, but I'm awfully rusty. Oh! Accidental pun, my
favorite kind!

And here in florida they use copper compounds to reduce algae growth in
slow moving waters. As I seem to recall people tossing a few pennies in
their mood fountains to keep the water clear.

Sorry to hear about your allergies. I take a middle ground on lots of
organic/synthetic issues but I've friends who've become wildly
sensitized.

Taryn


On Sep 1, 2005, at 7:04 PM, Garth  Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings,

I was suggesting an alternative for those whose health is of vital
importance, to them.  I am fighting hard to prevent myself from
becoming
totally chemically sensitive, so I can still have a life.  Many of the
things our government says are safe are responsible for people becoming
like I am, allergic to everything.

If it is too much bother to find out how to use alternatives, then so
be
it.  No need to ridicule the information.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 05:39 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:

at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe?  At what
concentration is
chlorine bleach unsafe?
also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what
concentration is
chlorine ineffective
against what organisms?  viruses? bacteria? cryptosporidium? giradia?
amoeba? nematodes? etc.

darn, things can get complex in a hurry if you think about it.  sorry



Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,
Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water
fresh.  It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young
girls and
child bearing aged women.  Sorry, but chlorine is not safe.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote:


Thanks for the info Emil.
I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another
thread.
Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in
an
emergency.
Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
Better safe than sorry.
Brian

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--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

2005-09-02 Thread Tom Irwin





Hi Joe,

I'm rapidily becoming a real believer in silver as well. Here in Uruguay, there is an over the counter medicine called Coargental. During the winter I use it whenevr a sinus infection or sore throat kicks up. it's basically a silver compound in nose drop form. It doesn't work all the time but then what does. I still get the flu and such but not much else.

Tom Irwin


From: Joe Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:05:51 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..Right so you throw a chunk of silver in your cistern and put an ozonizer or UV in the delivery line close to the point of use. I learned how to make colloidal silver back around 1997 and it is amazing stuff. I had a friend with a freshwater fish tank that was having problems with fish dying from some bacteria or fungus. I told him about silver and he threw a chunk of silver cut from a 1 oz bar into the tank and that was the end of the problem. At home in my water treatment system (yes I don't trust the municipality to get it right) I have a combination of elements including a membrane, and UV sterilizer. I noticed during maintenance that some of the filters in the system downstream of the activated carbon (which removes the chlorine) and upstream of the UV would get a clear slimy coating gowing over the filter media over time. I threw a chunk of silver into the housings and the slime never returned. A large cistern with a couple of pure silver bars in it with just a hundred microamps flowing between them should keep the water fresh. Making colloidal silver uses more like 20 miliamps for a short period of time and you need to make sure the silver is at least 99.9 % pure or better if possible. You need to start with distilled water to avoid creating silver compounds electrochemically. Use current regulation rather than voltage regulation and the process is optimized by the addition of ultrasonic energy to keep the nanoscale particles from adhering to the electrodes.An old ultrasonic humidifier works well for this. Put water in the transducer well and sit a mason jar into the well with your distilled water in it. The ultrasonics couple right through the glass of the jar into your forming colloid quite nicely. Afterwards although the water won't look any different to the naked eye, the beam from a laser pointer will be clearly visible in the water which will not be the case in distilled or DI water. Adding just a few drops of the colloid to a vase with cut flowers will keep the water from going putrid until long after the flowers are gone. I had carnations in a mason jar of tap water (chlorine removed) with a teaspoon of colloid added, for over a month! Get a nasal sprayer and dump out the addictive antihisamine crap, rinse it out and put silver colloid in. Whenever a sore throat comes on at the first sign, spray the back of the throat and nasal passages and conserve your energy while your immune system gears up. This is better than drinking colloid which I don't recommend and only uses a few drops per application which you do as needed. I have done this countless times and the cold never develops beyond a little throat irritation unless I am burning the candle at both ends and not resting. Great stuff! Joesnip___
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[Biofuel] E85 and Ethanol MN news

2005-09-02 Thread MH

 Two weeks ago I went by a fuel station
 selling E85 for USD 2.299 and unleaded gasoline
 USD 2.799 in Onalaska, WI which is now reported
 to be E85 USD 2.49 and unleaded gasoline USD 2.99
 on Sep 2, 2005 at -- 

 E85 Price Forum
 (The American Lung Association of Minnesota
 is not responsible for misinformation reported
 on the E85 Price Forum. )

 http://www.cleanairchoice.org/outdoor/PriceForum.asp 

 [on the far right than scroll down]

 E85 Price:
 Station Name:
 Station City:
 Unleaded Price:
 Date:
 Comments:  
 --- 

 Dayton's pumped up on ethanol
 ENERGY: Senator's road trip promotes use of homegrown fuel.
 BY SCOTT THISTLE
 Sep. 02, 2005 
 NEWS TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
 Duluth, MN USA 
 http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/business/12541991.htm 

 It's not every day you get a U.S. senator to fill your tank with
 gas, wash your windshield and do it all with a friendly smile.

 But on Thursday Sen. Mark Dayton, D-Minn., was at the
 Holiday Station near Duluth's Spirit Mountain doing just that.
 An added bonus was the price of the gas he was pumping, the
 corn-derived ethanol or E85: just $1.99 a gallon, or about
 $1.20 cheaper than what regular unleaded gasoline was going for.

 That's a decent price, said Dayton, who is on a road trip to
 promote the homegrown fuel.

 But not all vehicles can burn ethanol, and only two stations in
 St. Louis County -- Holiday Station, 9314 W. Skyline Parkway, and
 Lake Superior ICO, 2516 London Road, both in Duluth -- offer the fuel.

 Dayton has offered federal legislation to change that; but his bill,
 which would require all autos made in the United States after 2008
 to burn ethanol, hasn't made much headway in Washington, Dayton said.

 There's just too many special interests, especially from the
 gas and oil industry, controlling things out there, Dayton said.

 The best way to get more ethanol flowing is to create consumer demand
 for the product, Dayton said. Automakers in Detroit and elsewhere
 would be willing to offer more vehicles able to burn the fuel,
 which is also a boon for Minnesota's corn-growers, if there were
 a market demand, he said.

 Today Dayton will be pumping ethanol in International Falls.
 The one-term U.S. senator has already said he won't seek
 re-election in 2006.

 I'm trying to find some kind of employment, Dayton quipped.
 But as they say, I probably shouldn't quit my day job.

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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

2005-09-02 Thread bob allen

Tom and Joe, I am interested in what makes you think that silver does 
any good?  Only personal experience, or do you know of any science 
behind the claims.



the NCCAM (National Center for Complimentary and Alternative Medicines) 
was set up to study just such nostrums as colloidal silver.  See what 
they have to say:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2297471.stm

Reviews in the scientific literature on colloidal silver products have 
concluded that2-5:

 * Silver has no known function in the body.

 * Silver is not an essential mineral supplement or a cure-all and 
should not be promoted as such.

 * Claims that there can be a deficiency of silver in the body and 
that such a deficiency can lead to disease are unfounded.

 * Claims made about the effectiveness of colloidal silver products 
for numerous diseases are unsupported scientifically.

 * Colloidal silver products can have serious side effects 
(discussed further below).

 * Laboratory analysis has shown that the amounts of silver in 
supplements vary greatly, which can pose risks to the consumer.




Tom Irwin wrote:
 Hi Joe,
  
 I'm rapidily becoming a real believer in silver as well. Here in 
 Uruguay, there is an over the counter medicine called Coargental. During 
 the winter I use it whenevr a sinus infection or sore throat kicks up. 
 it's basically a silver compound in nose drop form. It doesn't work all 
 the time but then what does. I still get the flu and such but not much else.
  
 Tom Irwin
 
 
 *From:* Joe Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 *Sent:* Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:05:51 -0300
 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..
 
 Right so you throw a chunk of silver in your cistern and put an
 ozonizer or UV in the delivery line close to the point of use.  I
 learned how to make colloidal silver back around 1997 and it is
 amazing stuff. I had a friend with a freshwater fish tank that was
 having problems with fish dying from some bacteria or fungus.  I
 told him about silver and he threw a chunk of silver cut from a 1 oz
 bar into the tank and that was the end of the problem.  At home in
 my water treatment system (yes I don't trust the municipality to get
 it right) I have a combination of elements including a membrane, and
 UV sterilizer.  I noticed during maintenance that some of the
 filters in the system downstream of the activated carbon (which
 removes the chlorine) and upstream of the UV would get a clear slimy
 coating gowing over the filter media over time.  I threw a chunk of
 silver into the housings and the slime never returned. A large
 cistern with a couple of pure silver bars in it with just a hundred
 microamps  flowing between them should keep the water fresh. Making
 colloidal silver uses more like 20 miliamps for a short period of
 time and you need to make sure the silver is at least 99.9 % pure or
 better if possible.  You need to start with distilled water to avoid
 creating silver compounds electrochemically. Use current regulation
 rather than voltage regulation and the process is optimized by the
 addition of ultrasonic energy to keep the nanoscale particles from
 adhering to the electrodes.An old ultrasonic humidifier works well
 for this.  Put water in the transducer well and sit a mason jar into
 the well with your distilled water in it.  The ultrasonics couple
 right through the glass of the jar into your forming colloid quite
 nicely. Afterwards although the water won't look any different to
 the naked eye, the beam from a laser pointer will be clearly visible
 in the water which will not be the case in distilled or DI water. 
 Adding just a few drops of the colloid to a vase with cut flowers
 will keep the water from going putrid until long after the flowers
 are gone.  I had carnations in a mason jar of tap water (chlorine
 removed) with a teaspoon of colloid added, for over a month!  Get a
 nasal sprayer and dump out the addictive antihisamine crap, rinse it
 out and put silver colloid in.  Whenever a sore throat comes on at
 the first sign, spray the back of the throat and nasal passages and
 conserve your energy while your immune system gears up.  This is
 better than drinking colloid which I don't recommend and only uses a
 few drops per application which you do as needed. I have done this
 countless times and the cold never develops beyond a little throat
 irritation unless I am burning the candle at both ends and not
 resting.  Great stuff!
 
 
 Joe
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

2005-09-02 Thread Appal Energy

You not only didn't read what I wrote Kim, you completely sidestep, 
ignore and jump over your own all-encompassing statements and the 
singular stewpot that you place everyone in who doesn't measure up to 
your judgemental standards.

And yet you continue to pass judgement on others in the midst of their 
calamity. The masses haven't even found a shower, sufficient meal or an 
hour's rest and you, and Greg and others are still slamming them as to 
how they should be more accountable, not even having the first scrap of 
knowledge as to which ones were acting accountably based upon the 
choices and/or lack of choices at their disposal.

You would serve yourself well to listen to your friends who point out 
your error when you do judge them. The company of the pious is not a 
strong invite to the dinner table.

Todd Swearingen


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings Joe,
Thank you.  Yes, fence riding is a Canadian hobby, isn't it?  It is easy to 
understand why, when you read stuff like Todd is sending.

I have had friends look at me startled and say:  You are judging me.  and 
I reply,  If I don't judge you and find you worthy, how can I call your 
friend?  We make judgements all the time.

I do not know how anyone can expect Bright Blessings if there is no 
accountability.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 09:14 AM 9/2/2005, you wrote:


  

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:



Greetings,

If it is discriminatory to call a thief a thief, then I discriminate.  If
it is discrimination to call a liar a liar, then I do discriminate.  Could
you please tell me how things can get better by letting people get away
with whatever they feel like?  No one held accountable, is this not what we
complain about in our government?  I did not apologize, I made sure that
what I said was not being taken out of context.  I have no desire to live
in a world where people are no accountable for what they do.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

  

Thank goodness for people like you!  And I think you said you are Canadian 
which makes it all the more impressive to hear you say discriminate is not 
a dirty word. It seems to me Canadians are often loath to call a spade a 
spade we are so oversocialized. Hail to accountability! Godspeed you 
redneck angels of sanity! Come on back home we need you here before we all 
die of fence riding induced lethargy.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..