Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
What we would like and what is reality can be very different to each and every one of us. For me reality is the "W" factor built into many of my projects, to this end their needs be a base line against loss and gain, this line is zero in many instances. I am very interested in the press as a saleable item from me to others as; One there is the option to buy, the option to lease or the option to payoff over several years interest free. (Note, here it is about a years wages). Two I retain the equipment and have an ongoing interest in the development of each sub group or family that wants to make their own fuel. Three let the presses be sold with great profit to large aid groups and the likes who push for their own needs rather than the needs of the people, that is most aid agencies to me are selfperpetuating non-taxpaying international conglomerates that rule tiny parts of the globe but as a combined group perform some horrific degradation of human rights. There are many that are parasitic to the plights and prey on the poor/disadvantaged/disaster victims and the likes. In some cases they have the new cars in stock ready to roll, the new equipment stored around the globe ready to roll. What the heck is wrong with using local people, local companies, local systems. TV and general media is why. Why specify new cars in projects? Maybe they have a used by date? There are benefits both ways, one of the major ones is as in two I get to keep a check on the quality which enables excess to the family or units needs to be sold in drums on the side of the road/river. It also enables me to guide the type of fuel crop and be a continuing part of the processes at no additionalcost to the family or unit. It is feasible "W" factor permitting. To note I have a hand press here that was donated to me, it works quite well but needs modifying, I will not modify it on my own as I believe that the original designer must partake of the "upgrade" and agree to it. this means he still retains the design and is not a patent or registered design but still his property right. To adopt laws that do not recognize people and property rights as such means we are going the same way as the US. It is imperative that we live by laws, one major law to me is "don't step on any one or abuse a privilege given freely by an individual". Another, due to the fact I am not in my country of birth, is "Do not copy what the locals are doing in business as this will conflict with locals and the resurrection of insiders and outsiders". This enable me to carry on a business and when alocal or locals copy it I can then change to another line/option thus introducing a wider spectrum of businesses. Doug - Original Message - From: Jason Katie To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press i understand the need for a return, but for something that was designed specifically to help the people who need it most, and then to say it will cost you a months wages for one just doesnt make sense. if someone is going to do that, it would make more sense to me to produce and sell something to groups WAY out of the way/league/market of who you are trying to help, then produce something more appropriate and viable at no cost to them. shuffle the cost to the people who can more easily afford it. again, this is my opinion.- Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:06 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Sellout? Someone who wants to take a worthwhile mechanism and make a fair return on his efforts is more probable. Not everyone is into or can afford to live their life by the "open source" doctrine. Usually doing so just means that the masses drain the majority of your energies, you have an even thinner wallet, less time for yourself then ever before and your creditors pounding even louder at the door. A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter operates under the principle of "Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
All quite true Todd, as far as it goes. But there's a gap between what Edwin says he wants to achieve and what he says his goals are. As he states it, his primary goal isn't to make loadsamoney, it's to benefit very poor people, and why shouldn't he get a return on his investment in the doing? Sounds fair enough at first glance, but it just won't work that way because it'd be crazy to think very poor people could ever afford the price he's charging - about four times the cost of the thing, according to Jason's estimate, probably not far wrong. How many years will it take someone in the rural hinterlands of Burkino Faso to earn 100 Euros? That's the privileged guy, the others live right outside the money economy, and those are the ones Edwin says he wants to help. Where's the sense in marketing a life-saving widget on the Internet when those whose lives you're trying to save could never afford it, have never seen a computer, and have no access to any market anyway? Edwin has to be aware of that gap, but he hasn't tried to make any alternative arrangements to bridge it. I outlined a couple of things he could try, Jason just described another, but not Edwin. So who is Edwin trying to kid? His oil press has no way of reaching the people he says it'll help. The best way to mend that small problem is to release the design, and that doesn't have to mean he's throwing his investment away. Another way might be to try to get someone like me, with our website and its credibility among the kind of people who access it, to get all involved and enthusiastic and, essentially, endorse his product for him, yawning gap and all. In the commercial world that would be a valuable endorsement. But Edwin wants it for nothing. Isn't it Edwin who's saying Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? He won't even offer what he does have - the plans. I don't buy it. I'm not saying he's just waving the flag of helping hungry people as a sales gimmick, but I can't say he's not doing that either. Whichever, it's not quite the same as this: A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. A lot of what he says is just wrong. He doesn't seem to have put a lot of thought or research into the true situation of the people he says he wants to help. IMHO Edwin has little credibility unless he moves into Open Sourcing his design. Then I might help him, but I'd have to check it out for myself first. I'd do that by giving it to the list. Todd, with you it's just that one processor page, when you get one of those I-want I-want I-want's I'll bet I get 10 of them, day after day, and yes it gets old soon. The first message this morning: I am Intrested in opening a plant for Bio-Diesel in UK or Pakistan because of the very cheap labour and supply to UK because of the high demand. How shall i proceed about opening bio diesel plant. Send me full information as soon as possible. A lot of different people with different interests will settle for nothing less: Drop all the rest of your pressing affairs and devote your attention to ME. Very often they're outright money-making schemes but you don't even get offered a cut, you're going to do it all for love because you're such a mug or you wouldn't be giving all that valuable information away for free on your website. So what, what's it matter? Such pesky squeakings have little bearing on all the genuine enquiries from real people who don't just ask, so often they offer as well, they want to share, not just take. Give to givers, take from takers. It's no problem seeing which is which. In fact it's easier than that, there's no need to take any notice of selfish, grasping people at all, just ignore them. If you really want to say the open source doctrine is usually just a drain of energies that leaves a person's wallet thinner then I have to say that there's a large amount of rather solid data to hand which blows that argument right out of the water. But I don't think you really want to say that. There's another issue here, in this particular case, which doesn't apply to your processor example, or not much. When rich people want to help poor people it just won't come adrift from the economic relationships between the two. Yes, Edwin is rich. Anyone with a computer and Internet access is automatically among the very privileged of the world. Edwin raises mushrooms in Holland, a country with little soil to call its own. As it turns out that doesn't matter too much to the Dutch, because it's a rich country. I'm not picking on them, we're all in the same boat, and what the hell I'm about a quarter Dutch myself anyway, I've lived there, I liked it, I'd go back. However, as with all the rich countries, there is an area of land totalling five times the size of Holland scattered about the world among prime growing areas in various
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Thankyou Rexis! I can't help agreeing with you. LOL! But there are lots and lots of websites that do that, it's one of the most noticeable things about the Internet. Regards Keith Sound like he just wanna sell his product. And wishfully hope that we can help him to boost his sale. Have we even see JourneyToForever complaining their effort spent to collect, make and test biodiesel, effort to support a website and a mailling list? Complaining about no big institude, no public money supporting them? And saying anything like all biodiesel processors are so expensive, they goes in millions of dollar? And charging us any penny for us to access on any biodiesel recipe or many other wonderful thing? No at all! There is just a donate button on the site, and everything else is free, not even a pop up banner! Well done. Regards, Rexis ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice
Hi all The juice from rhubarb leaves, boiled up strained, is supposed to make a good natural insecticide too, just don't use the boiling pan for food again! Nettles contain methanoic acid (formic acid)- that's the irritant / insecticide. But rhubarb leaves contain mainly oxalic acid malic acid. Oxalic acid is quite toxic! Spinach also contains oxalic acid, and Robert says he likes it raw. Kirk and Bob were talking about that a month or two back, seems cooking it doesn't help much either. You shouldn't need insecticides, maybe only at first. If you want to know about nettles and growing plants the Biodynamics people are the ones to ask. http://snipurl.com/pekt stinging nettle Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (BDA) Home Page http://snipurl.com/peky stinging nettle EcoLandTech From information at http://journeytoforever.org/farm_link2.html Small farm resources Best Keith As far as the wasps go, I think there is plenty more around for them to find. Malcolm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert luis rabello Sent: 18 April 2006 21:44 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Nettle Juice bob allen wrote: Robert, nettles contain histamine-like compounds which cause serious irritation to tissues of higher animals. I wonder if your steep would be useful as an insect antifeedant on garden plants? That's an interesting possibility. I wonder what a foliar spray of nettle juice would do to the aphids that have infested my trees in years past . . . (Ah, but then what would happen to the predatory wasps?) BTW, I like milkweed buds similarly prepared- they're a little like brussel sprouts. Really? I haven't seen any milkweed around here, but I think your Gulf Coast climate is warmer than the one I live in. Thanks for the advice! I'm going to give it a try! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
All things aside if he were to tier the costs from the poor to the AB and UN etc so that the poor were subsidized this alone would not be so bad. I suggested that in the first place Doug, but Edwin doesn't seem to see it that way, he didn't take any notice. Best Keith To this end am interested to find more details. Their are not that many easy to use hand presses that will take the husks/shells and thus a two stage method is needed. The hulling and the oil press. Be good to know if a press existed that was operated by hand and could handle the husks to reduce the processing stages for isolated subsistence farmers being forced to accept modern technology by multinationals in the form of irrigation, if it passes you lane you pay etc. Doug - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Keith Addison To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways. In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial revolution. The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new one. For instance, in a different thread at the same time Pannirselvam mentioned this: we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so simple to make , now processing coconut , getting good resutls , future the sunflower and also the castor oil I don't think very much of Edwin's case for giving the poorest a future. I'm not persuaded to help him sell his oil press. Here's his email, below. Best Keith Dear Keith, I read your discussion about the Piteba oil press in the forum. I am glad you are so involved and enthusiastic about the idea of a small press. I understand that you have many questions on the press. First let me explain what Piteba is and why I developed the Piteba oil press. I hope you will see opportunities to support me in trying to sell the press in as many countries as possible and in that way give the poorest a future. I have a small company in the mushroom business which I grounded in 1982. It is a very interesting and challenging business and I am still working in that field. In my spare time I started to develop the oil press 5 years ago. No big institute, no public money, no support. My intention was to develop a small press for the poorest in order to give them the possibility to produce oil for the local market: as edible oil, medicine, cream, bio fuel or whatever use they could sell the oil for. At present they can only sell the seeds, if they have any, often for very low prices. With the press they can produce oil from seeds they produce themselves (farmers), find in the forest or buy on the local market (landless and people in the cities). The value added is high, making it possible to earn about 2 times as much as a local wage. There was no such press on the market. All presses are too expensive, beginning with 1000 euro or more. I used the cheapest materials, made all prototypes myself, did all experiments (including extraction efficiencies), imported various grains(not all are available in The Netherlands), made the web-site, developed the packaging, promotion of the press etc. etc. I decided not to
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
On the other hand (the one that knoweth not what doeth the other, so I guess either will do)... Is it PNGV? Is it the Freedom Car? No, it's, up, up and away, it's SUPERVISION! Karsner: Advanced Energy Initiative is a Vision for Victory President Bush's Advanced Energy Initiative is a Vision for Victory, according to Alexander Karsner, DOE's new Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE). Speaking last week before the annual Power-Gen Renewable Energy and Fuels Conference, Assistant Secretary Karsner declared that the energy initiative could lead to victory over U.S. enemies; over U.S. dependence on unstable regimes and ideologies; and over anxiety and misplaced fears that we are passive and helpless to better this nation and better our planet. Assistant Secretary Karsner emphasized, Maximizing energy efficiency and renewable energy is the domestic epicenter in the war on terror, and it is imperative that we maximize the partnerships between the public and private sectors in new and creative ways with a sense of seriousness, national purpose, and the urgency the situation merits. Noting that this was no time for business as usual, Assistant Secretary Karsner called on people of goodwill for their help. I need your partnership and your support and your leadership to overcome bureaucratic obstacles and to redefine the interaction between the public and private sectors, said Karsner. I am asking you today to take this message to Capitol Hill and to the far corners of the country; to rise to the President's challenge; to rise above the conventional and insist on making a real difference in the way things are done. See Assistant Secretary Karsner's speech (http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/pdfs/karsner_speech.pdfPDF 99 KB) and his newly updated http://www.eere.energy.gov/office_eere/Office of EERE home page. :-) Waddya mean that's not what you mean? This is no time for business as usual, don't you know there's a war on, they went to a lot of trouble to arrange it for you. No-dig for Victory! Best Keith We desperately need real election campaign reform here, otherwise we will continue to end up selecting the corporate endorsed proxy we hope will do the least amount of damage. It is a very sad state that we're in here. I wince anytime I see our War President on TV. He is the ultimate hypocrite. I don't see how another Bush could have a chance to be elected but until we get election reform AND voting machines that aren't hackable with paper audit trail, well, the thought is too much to entertain for even a nanosecond without feeling some discomfort. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding? We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and after them, Jenna and Barbara. We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
You're making my head hurt Keith Addison wrote: On the other hand (the one that knoweth not what doeth the other, so I guess either will do)... Is it PNGV? Is it the Freedom Car? No, it's, up, up and away, it's SUPERVISION! Karsner: Advanced Energy Initiative is a Vision for Victory President Bush's Advanced Energy Initiative is a Vision for Victory, according to Alexander Karsner, DOE's new Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE). Speaking last week before the annual Power-Gen Renewable Energy and Fuels Conference, Assistant Secretary Karsner declared that the energy initiative could lead to victory over U.S. enemies; over U.S. dependence on unstable regimes and ideologies; and over anxiety and misplaced fears that we are passive and helpless to better this nation and better our planet. Assistant Secretary Karsner emphasized, Maximizing energy efficiency and renewable energy is the domestic epicenter in the war on terror, and it is imperative that we maximize the partnerships between the public and private sectors in new and creative ways with a sense of seriousness, national purpose, and the urgency the situation merits. Noting that this was no time for business as usual, Assistant Secretary Karsner called on people of goodwill for their help. I need your partnership and your support and your leadership to overcome bureaucratic obstacles and to redefine the interaction between the public and private sectors, said Karsner. I am asking you today to take this message to Capitol Hill and to the far corners of the country; to rise to the President's challenge; to rise above the conventional and insist on making a real difference in the way things are done. See Assistant Secretary Karsner's speech (http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/pdfs/karsner_speech.pdfPDF 99 KB) and his newly updated http://www.eere.energy.gov/office_eere/Office of EERE home page. :-) Waddya mean that's not what you mean? This is no time for business as usual, don't you know there's a war on, they went to a lot of trouble to arrange it for you. No-dig for Victory! Best Keith We desperately need real election campaign reform here, otherwise we will continue to end up selecting the corporate endorsed proxy we hope will do the least amount of damage. It is a very sad state that we're in here. I wince anytime I see our War President on TV. He is the ultimate hypocrite. I don't see how another Bush could have a chance to be elected but until we get election reform AND voting machines that aren't hackable with paper audit trail, well, the thought is too much to entertain for even a nanosecond without feeling some discomfort. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding? We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and after them, Jenna and Barbara. We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A little (more) clarification
Google: white mans burden and William Easterly... Michael Redler wrote: When you Google white mans burden, you simply end up with a list of acts committed in the name of...which has grown since Rudyard. Today, the motives for hegemony are hidden and given names designed to confuse people (i.e. humanitarian intervention). Those who are most confused, swallow this crap hook, line and sinker. We have to help them. We have to save them. We have to... Even when they don't want our help or worse, they suffer from it, we continue for their own good. Mike */Bob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Hi y'all, I'd say Rudyard was laughing (he had a great capacity for humour) at the misnomer we have made of his White Man's Burden. Judging out of context is like shooting fish in a barrel. Kipling lived and wrote in a time of Empire, and what he was trying to do was set a few ground rules within the context of Empire. For their time, and within the limits of the age, the rules had merit. His White Man's Burden was written in 1899 in response to the American invasion of the Philippines. His hope was that Americans would be humble in their might and sparing of their use of power. Written more than a century ago, it is eerily prescient of the present debacle in Iraq. The actual words are: Take up the White Man's Burden - Send forth the best ye breed - Go bind your sons to exile To serve your captive's need; To wait in heavy harness On fluttered folk and wild - Your new-caught sullen peoples, Half devil and half child. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A little (more) clarification
Hi Bob Hi y'all, I'd say Rudyard was laughing (he had a great capacity for humour) at the misnomer we have made of his White Man's Burden. Judging out of context is like shooting fish in a barrel. Kipling lived and wrote in a time of Empire, and what he was trying to do was set a few ground rules within the context of Empire. For their time, and within the limits of the age, the rules had merit. His White Man's Burden was written in 1899 in response to the American invasion of the Philippines. His hope was that Americans would be humble in their might and sparing of their use of power. Written more than a century ago, it is eerily prescient of the present debacle in Iraq. Did you know that Kipling was a founder member of Milner's Round Table? The back-room of all back-rooms, darling of the conspiracy theorists, whatever would they have to talk about over tea otherwise. It was founded by Rhodes and Milner, along with Kipling, Maurice Hankey, Arthur Balfour, Lord Rothschild et al, American members Morgan, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Warburg... There were several responses to Kipling's White Man's Burden. Here's one: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1903blackburden.html Edward Morel: Black Man's Burden 1903 Another: http://www.swans.com/library/art8/xxx074.html The Brown Man's Burden, by Henry Labouchère - 1899 Another: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5476/ The Black Man's Burden: A Response to Kipling Best Keith The actual words are: Take up the White Man's Burden - Send forth the best ye breed - Go bind your sons to exile To serve your captive's need; To wait in heavy harness On fluttered folk and wild - Your new-caught sullen peoples, Half devil and half child. Take up the White Man's Burden - In patience to abide, To veil the threat of terror And check the show of pride; By open speech and simple, An hundred times made plain, To seek another's profit, And work another's gain. Take up the White Man's Burden, The savage wars of peace - Fill full the mouth of Famine And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest The end for others sought, Watch Sloth and heathen Folly Bring all your hope to nought. Take up the White Man's Burden - No tawdry rule of kings, But toil of serf and sweeper - The tale of common things, The ports ye shall not enter, The roads ye shall not tread, Go make them with your living, And mark them with your dead. Take up the White Man's Burden - And reap his old reward: The blame of those ye better, And the hate of those ye guard - The cry of hosts ye humour (Ah slowly) towards the light:- Why brought ye us from bondage, Our loved Egyptian night? Take up the White Man's Burden- Ye dare not stoop to less - Nor call too loud on Freedom To cloak your weariness; By all ye cry or whisper, By all ye leave or do, The silent sullen peoples Shall weigh your Gods and you. Take up your White Man's Burden - Have done with childish days - The lightly proffered laurel, The easy, ungrudged praise. Comes now, to search your manhood Through all the thankless years, Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom, The judgement of your peers! Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 2:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A little clarification Rudtard Kipling is rolling is his grave but William Easterly probably approves of pretty much everything you've said. Michael Redler wrote: I just wanted to chime in here. Keith wrote: It reached a stage here where the list would not have survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, we didn't just make them up. It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression, screening all posts before distribution (for example). This forum proves that a loose framework is very effective at maintaining individual freedoms while allowing it's membership to participate in maintaining continuity. Kim: I read some of your posts and couldn't help notice the similarities between your views and the ideology driving the White Man's Burden. Maybe it's time to rethink the ideals to which we, in the US, have been indoctrinated. Maybe it's a good time to question the perceived credibility and legacy left behind by people like McCarthy and accept the fact that it's not acceptable to steer the culture, economy and government of another country simply because you feel you're better. You wrote: Our right to determine the direction of our life today is unparalleled in human history. So, Babylon, Ancient Greece, etc. don't count. The Magna Carta was just a piece of paper (if I can borrow an expression from our president). There have been and are, better examples of democracy in human history than the republic we Americans pretend to push on others in the process of building an empire. Do some research on our
Re: [Biofuel] A little clarification
Chip's offlist fight with listadmin ended well for all concerned, IMHO, I'm glad Chip agrees. Definitely offlist stuff, the list wasn't deprived of anything. Raking up old coals isn't always a good idea, and this would just have been a distraction or worse. I think there's a lot of offlisting going on all the time, from what I can make out a lot of members seem to do it. It's healthy, I don't think it deprives anyone of anything, maybe the opposite. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of onlist interaction. Chip wrote: I had a post 'screened' a few months back, which led to a lively off-list debate... If all posts on that thread were screened, I disagree with your assessment. However, I agree with subsequent screening/deleting after the list members had a chance to read and dissent to the initial posts. To my knowledge Keith tries to give the list a chance to respond to every post and it's understood (IMO) that members who have nothing but antagonism to offer, are removed. This is usually done with all the transparency he can afford. Thankyou. That's true, or as true as I can make it. There are also various ways of trying to prevent the antagonism arising in the first place, but such things can only go so far before they do more harm than good. A bit of a balancing act. If it looks this way from the other end, as Mike says, then I'm well pleased: This forum proves that a loose framework is very effective at maintaining individual freedoms while allowing it's membership to participate in maintaining continuity. By the way, Mike: It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression, screening all posts before distribution (for example). Strangely, IMO, the big list owners group at Yahoo does that, everybody's screened, not just newcomers on auto-moderation for their first posts like most groups. It's not run by Yahoo, it's just another group, run by list owners for list owners, and that's how they do it. It's a useful group and I wouldn't want to argue with them about it, but I think if we had to do that here it wouldn't be worth having anymore. Thanks again. Best Keith Mike Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Redler wrote: I just wanted to chime in here. Keith wrote: It reached a stage here where the list would not have survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, we didn't just make them up. It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression, screening all posts before distribution (for example). Oh, I don't know. I had a post 'screened' a few months back, which led to a lively off-list debate, (actually it was a fight/screaming match) -which I lost btw- that would not have benefitted the list at all. the post I submitted and had screened, was poorly (not at all) researched, and expressed a pov that was based in ignorance of the subject I was commenting upon. It was taken the wrong way by the moderator, but in light of the subject at hand, that was certainly understandable, and in interest of the health of the list, the decision to take the argument/debate off list was most certainly correct. It also saved me the embarrassment of arguing an idiotic point, something I am want to do upon occasion :) big thread snipped upon which I have nothing to add --chipper ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I would feel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House... From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:47:29 -0700 Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding? We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and after them, Jenna and Barbara. We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
So who is Edwin trying to kid? Maybe, just maybe, he's not entirely aware of how relative the poverty income rate is in various regions. (A point to which you elude later in your reply.) 100 Euros isn't exactly the wealth of Fort Knox ($122 US), although it remains a relative matter. I rather doubt that it would cost any more than a Northern Tool, one inch, clear water pump at some point in time if it were manufactured at scale. That's about 1/3 of the present asking price of 100 Euros. Not exactly the Bloomingdale price of a Tabbypressen. But Edwin wants it for nothing. All right. So what is it of fair exchange that you would seek in return? Isn't it Edwin who's saying Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? Not exactly. It's rather apparent that he brings something to the table, having put a fair amount of his own time and effort into the extruder. A Drainbow would sit back and watch while another put forward all their efforts, then swoop in and start to enjoy the fruit before the laborer had even tamped the sweat off his brow. He won't even offer what he does have - the plans. Well? I don't either relative to the 833 gallon plant. People who aren't bright enough to figure out that design shouldn't be making biodiesel in the first place. And people who won't figure it out? A large percentage of them are interested in it from the Drainbow profit motive - let everyone else do the groundwork. Laziness seems to accompany a lot of people looking for profit. So perhaps it's somewhat fair to extrapolate from personal experience why Edwin shouldn't necessarily make detailed drawings open source, at least not until he's comfortable with doing so. 1) It's rather doubtful that those who can't afford a 100 Eu asking price could afford to construct a prototype on their own even if they had the drawings. 2) If the drawings were out there, China-Mart or India-Mart or perhaps Wal-Mart would be the first to manufacture at scale and take full disadvantage of the open source availability. Others do the ground work and they play the role of Drainbow. If they really want to make a buck, let them steal it a little more honestly. If you really want to say the open source doctrine is usually just a drain of energies that leaves a person's wallet thinner Nope. But here can be times when open source is appropriate and others when it may take a while to get there. Edwin raises mushrooms in Holland, a country with little soil to call its own. As it turns out that doesn't matter too much to the Dutch, because it's a rich country. I'm not picking on them, we're all in the same boat, and what the hell I'm about a quarter Dutch myself anyway, I've lived there, I liked it, I'd go back. However, as with all the rich countries, there is an area of land totalling five times the size of Holland scattered about the world among prime growing areas in various 3rd World countries which is devoted exclusively to raising feed for Dutch cattle, at preferential prices for the Dutch, who then use their own soil to push up tulips and stuff, that being more profitable. Pity about all those hungry people who'd be growing food for themselves and their communities on that prime 3rd World land if it weren't for the tulips and so on. Why not set the fair return you say Edwin deserves on his investment against that backdrop and see how fair it really is? *They* owe *him* 100 Euros? Whatchu trying to do Keith? Usurp Barry Commoner's coach seat on the principles bandwagon? Should it be presumed that you managed to point this perspective out to Edwin in the off-list correspondence? Okay. I stuck my two Euros in and just burned up a half-hour of both our time. Well, maybe not incinerated. Revisiting the international practice of trade inequity with that dutchy thought was quite worth the time. As for the extruder? I could easily see it being affordable to the middle to upper end of the First (and only) World right out of the chute, certainly no more expensive than the cheap juicers and blenders found on Mal-Wart's bridle registry. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: All quite true Todd, as far as it goes. But there's a gap between what Edwin says he wants to achieve and what he says his goals are. As he states it, his primary goal isn't to make loadsamoney, it's to benefit very poor people, and why shouldn't he get a return on his investment in the doing? Sounds fair enough at first glance, but it just won't work that way because it'd be crazy to think very poor people could ever afford the price he's charging - about four times the cost of the thing, according to Jason's estimate, probably not far wrong. How many years will it take someone in the rural hinterlands of Burkino Faso to earn 100 Euros? That's the privileged guy, the others live right outside the money economy, and those are the ones
Re: [Biofuel] A little clarification
I like the way this list works -- a few of my other sustainability lists it's very easy to get off-topic (try discussing the political ramifications or drivers behind a sustainbility issue...) and then the moderator steps in and tells you to take it elsewhere. Here it seems like there is no subject that is off topic, but whatever the subject, you better present it in a reasoned way and be able to support your point (just like the rules say, actually). Sort of like the real world -- you can't just claim that something happening is off topic and you won't deal with it, and dealing with stuff by kicking and screaming doesn't work (for too long) either Keep up the good work everyone Zeke On 4/19/06, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chip's offlist fight with listadmin ended well for all concerned, IMHO, I'm glad Chip agrees. Definitely offlist stuff, the list wasn't deprived of anything. Raking up old coals isn't always a good idea, and this would just have been a distraction or worse. I think there's a lot of offlisting going on all the time, from what I can make out a lot of members seem to do it. It's healthy, I don't think it deprives anyone of anything, maybe the opposite. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of onlist interaction. Chip wrote: I had a post 'screened' a few months back, which led to a lively off-list debate... If all posts on that thread were screened, I disagree with your assessment. However, I agree with subsequent screening/deleting after the list members had a chance to read and dissent to the initial posts. To my knowledge Keith tries to give the list a chance to respond to every post and it's understood (IMO) that members who have nothing but antagonism to offer, are removed. This is usually done with all the transparency he can afford. Thankyou. That's true, or as true as I can make it. There are also various ways of trying to prevent the antagonism arising in the first place, but such things can only go so far before they do more harm than good. A bit of a balancing act. If it looks this way from the other end, as Mike says, then I'm well pleased: This forum proves that a loose framework is very effective at maintaining individual freedoms while allowing it's membership to participate in maintaining continuity. By the way, Mike: It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression, screening all posts before distribution (for example). Strangely, IMO, the big list owners group at Yahoo does that, everybody's screened, not just newcomers on auto-moderation for their first posts like most groups. It's not run by Yahoo, it's just another group, run by list owners for list owners, and that's how they do it. It's a useful group and I wouldn't want to argue with them about it, but I think if we had to do that here it wouldn't be worth having anymore. Thanks again. Best Keith Mike Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Redler wrote: I just wanted to chime in here. Keith wrote: It reached a stage here where the list would not have survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, we didn't just make them up. It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression, screening all posts before distribution (for example). Oh, I don't know. I had a post 'screened' a few months back, which led to a lively off-list debate, (actually it was a fight/screaming match) -which I lost btw- that would not have benefitted the list at all. the post I submitted and had screened, was poorly (not at all) researched, and expressed a pov that was based in ignorance of the subject I was commenting upon. It was taken the wrong way by the moderator, but in light of the subject at hand, that was certainly understandable, and in interest of the health of the list, the decision to take the argument/debate off list was most certainly correct. It also saved me the embarrassment of arguing an idiotic point, something I am want to do upon occasion :) big thread snipped upon which I have nothing to add --chipper ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Manufacturing in the US
For someone who has made a career in manufacturing, I find Bush speeches on the economy especially hard to listen to. My opinion:An empirebenefits fromit's conquered lands byexploitingit's resources - usually in the form of labor and durable goods. It does this until it becomes dependent on those resources andsignals the end of that empire.Job statistics for the State of New York (coincidentally called "The Empire State") http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workforceindustrydata/index.aspIndustries With Job Gains: Educational Health Services+27,900 Financial Activities+18,200 Professional Business Services+15,100 Trade, Transportation Utilities+14,200 Construction+6,400 Leisure Hospitality+6,000 Other Services+4,300 Information+2,600 Government+1,700 Natural Resources Mining+400Industries With Job Losses: Manufacturing-16,700 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Say Bobby...Do you feel safe now?fredOn 4/19/06, Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I wouldfeel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House...From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:47:29 -0700Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding?We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and after them, Jenna and Barbara.We could have a Bush family dynastyfor better than 50 years over here!robert luis rabelloThe Edge of JusticeAdventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.caRanger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Manufacturing in the US
For someone who has made a career in manufacturing, I find Bush speeches on the economy especially hard to listen to. My opinion:An empirebenefits fromit's conquered lands byexploitingit's resources - usually in the form of labor and durable goods. It does this until it becomes dependent on those resources andsignals the end of that empire.Mike___Job statistics for the State of New York (coincidentally called "The Empire State") http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workforceindustrydata/index.asp Industries With Job Gains: Educational Health Services+27,900 Financial Activities+18,200 Professional Business Services+15,100 Trade, Transportation Utilities+14,200 Construction+6,400 Leisure Hospitality+6,000 Other Services+4,300 Information+2,600 Government+1,700 Natural Resources Mining+400Industries With Job Losses: Manufacturing-16,700___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
On 5/10/06, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 100 Euros isn't exactly the wealth of Fort Knox ($122 US), although it remains a relative matter. I know that in Mauritania, the per capita annual income is somewhere around US$280So about half a year's income. Sort of like a fancy new car for someone here. How many of us could afford that if we had to pay it all in one lump sum? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
On 4/19/06, Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I would feel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House... Well, maybe the democrats couldn't make a decision to save their lives, but that's slightly better than making the wrong decision, which is what the current administration seems to be doing all of the time. I for one would prefer an ineffectual government to a downright evil government that's trying to kill me and the rest of the world. Even forgetting all of the domestic attacks on our environment, climate, health care, etc..., the war on terror is doing a better job of creating more terrorists who hate us than ridding the world of terror (admittedly sort of a hard thing for the US to do in earnest, since we've sponsored so much of it through the years...) On the other hand, there is something to be said for the Bush administration's effect on organizing everyone. If Gore or Kerry had won, would we have the massive outrage against the US government that we have now? Probably not. It would have been not that bad, but not that bad is not a goal to strive for. I've heard this argument here a few times, and although I don't entirely agree (it seems a little like saying Hurricaine Katrina and all the deaths it caused was a good thing because it will raise awareness of global warming), there is a point there. From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:47:29 -0700 Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding? We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and after them, Jenna and Barbara. We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Nice sarcasm there Bobby. Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. Would be interesting to see precisely what you base that remark on other than the pablam you've apparently nursed on from clowns such as Limbrain, entertainment programs such as Fox News or web sites such as Swift Boat Vets who wouldn't know truth if it bit them square on both butt cheeks. As if the wrong-thinking of a mentally challenged puppet hiding behind a crown of thorns, whose decisions are set to disembowel clean water and air, efficiency, conservation and alternative fuels, have embroiled all nations, killed untold tens-of-thousands in a wrongfully prosecuted war, brought the country closer to a state of economic collapse, and pandered to the single issue voter instead of the total country he was supposed to serve and protect is a standard to be held in high regard. I'd say something about twisted logic. But the appearance is that logic played no role in your comment. Todd Swearingen Bobby Clark wrote: Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I would feel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House... From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:47:29 -0700 Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding? We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and after them, Jenna and Barbara. We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Let's give Bobby the benefit of the doubt.He's had negative comments about the Democrats. I'm waiting to see if he has something good to say about Bush and the Republicans.Personally, I have no loyalty toward either andI sometimes find it difficult to see the difference between the two, despite the bit of theater they put on from time to time.MikeFred Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Say Bobby...Do you feel safe now?fred On 4/19/06, Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I wouldfeel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House...[snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Todd breaks out the verbal glaive while I grab the nearest thought of a broken beer bottle.Sometimes I swear I still feel like a mental midget here!Damn fine writing!fred On 5/10/06, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice sarcasm there Bobby. Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it.Would be interesting to see precisely what you base that remark on other than the pablam you've apparently nursed on from clowns such asLimbrain, entertainment programs such as Fox News or web sites such asSwift Boat Vets who wouldn't know truth if it bit them square on bothbutt cheeks. As if the wrong-thinking of a mentally challenged puppet hiding behind acrown of thorns, whose decisions are set to disembowel clean water andair, efficiency, conservation and alternative fuels, have embroiled all nations, killed untold tens-of-thousands in a wrongfully prosecuted war,brought the country closer to a state of economic collapse, and panderedto the single issue voter instead of the total country he was supposed to serve and protect is a standard to be held in high regard.I'd say something about twisted logic. But the appearance is that logicplayed no role in your comment.Todd SwearingenBobby Clark wrote: Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn'tmake a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I wouldfeel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House... From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:47:29 -0700Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stayafter his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. Idoubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world.Are you kidding?We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, andafter them, Jenna and Barbara.We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here!robert luis rabelloThe Edge of JusticeAdventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.caRanger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Hey Mike, My response was not an attempt to root out any political leanings either. I merely asked a question. Personally I hate both parties because ultimately the are the same. I just hate one more right now because they are the ones holding all the cards. fredOn 4/19/06, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's give Bobby the benefit of the doubt.He's had negative comments about the Democrats. I'm waiting to see if he has something good to say about Bush and the Republicans. Personally, I have no loyalty toward either andI sometimes find it difficult to see the difference between the two, despite the bit of theater they put on from time to time. MikeFred Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Say Bobby...Do you feel safe now?fred On 4/19/06, Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I wouldfeel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House...[snip] ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Don't worry Fred.Todd certainly has a talent for stringing words together and having it mean something. But, as long as you get your point across, it's all good.BTW, I've always felt that in order to use the full range of a language, one needs to look beyond their dictionary and incorporate a little grit (broken beer bottle) every now and then.:-)Mike Fred Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Todd breaks out the verbal glaive while I grab the nearest thought of a broken beer bottle.Sometimes I swear I still feel like a mental midget here!Damn fine writing!fred On 5/10/06, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice sarcasm there Bobby.Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it.Would be interesting to see precisely what you base that remark on other than the pablam you've apparently nursed on from clowns such asLimbrain, entertainment programs such as Fox News or web sites such asSwift Boat Vets who wouldn't know truth if it bit them square on bothbutt cheeks. As if the wrong-thinking of a mentally challenged puppet hiding behind acrown of thorns, whose decisions are set to disembowel clean water andair, efficiency, conservation and alternative fuels, have embroiled all nations, killed untold tens-of-thousands in a wrongfully prosecuted war,brought the country closer to a state of economic collapse, and panderedto the single issue voter instead of the total country he was supposed to serve and protect is a standard to be held in high regard.I'd say something about twisted logic. But the appearance is that logicplayed no role in your comment.Todd Swearingen[snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Well don't call me brilliant. Now I know what a glaive is where I didn't before - a poor man's week wacker, eh? Todd Swearingen Fred Finch wrote: Todd breaks out the verbal glaive while I grab the nearest thought of a broken beer bottle. Sometimes I swear I still feel like a mental midget here! Damn fine writing! fred On 5/10/06, *Appal Energy* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice sarcasm there Bobby. Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. Would be interesting to see precisely what you base that remark on other than the pablam you've apparently nursed on from clowns such as Limbrain, entertainment programs such as Fox News or web sites such as Swift Boat Vets who wouldn't know truth if it bit them square on both butt cheeks. As if the wrong-thinking of a mentally challenged puppet hiding behind a crown of thorns, whose decisions are set to disembowel clean water and air, efficiency, conservation and alternative fuels, have embroiled all nations, killed untold tens-of-thousands in a wrongfully prosecuted war, brought the country closer to a state of economic collapse, and pandered to the single issue voter instead of the total country he was supposed to serve and protect is a standard to be held in high regard. I'd say something about twisted logic. But the appearance is that logic played no role in your comment. Todd Swearingen Bobby Clark wrote: Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I would feel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House... From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:47:29 -0700 Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding? We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and after them, Jenna and Barbara. We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel
[Biofuel] Thoughts on the Bush Admninistation
The Bush Administration is not trying to kill you. Sounds like a little paranoia. First of all, I don't think all of the decisions coming out of this administration are wrong; although the media would certainly have you believe so. They really have it out for this president; even to the point of bending the truth and hiding other elements of it. Not to say that this administration has not done the same thing at times, but we've come to expect this in politics, unfortunately. The thing I like about Bush is that he is not afraid to say how he feels and believes. He is not afraid to make a decision. Sometimes indecision is better than making a wrong decision in the eyes of many, but sometimes indecision and inaction is very dangerous. The gripes that you hear coming out of those who are against Bush and this government aren't all problems that this administration created. You can't blame Bush for everything; well, I guess you can but you'd be wrong. Many of the problems the nation faces today have been lingering for 15-20 years or longer. I didn't hear anyone griping about them when Clinton was in office beacuse most people liked Clinton. You see, for a lot of people it is personal. Now if you are against the war in Iraq; then you can blame Bush. If you are upset about rising fuel costs, you can partially blame Bush (which I do, by the way). But if you are upset about illegal immigration or the lack of a future for social security, you can't rightfully blame Bush. These were problems that were there before he ever took office, but I often still hear people blaming him for them. As far as terrorism goes; Bush usn't inciting people anymore than they were already. Fundamentalist Islam hates America, period. Our way of life is against what their religion teaches and it (our way of life) continues to entice many young people out of Islam. 9/11 happened before the war on terror or the war in Iraq (although it seems many forget this fact). They came on our soil and blew up our buidlings. Swift action had to be taken to send a message to terrorists who wold hate America even if Mickey Mouse was president. I don't agree with this administration on everything; in fact, I disagree with it a lot. However, I don't let my personal feelings take me on wild flights of fancy like the governement is completely evil or the government is trying to kill me. It is in those statements that logic is absent. Bobby Clark From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 08:18:11 -0600 On 4/19/06, Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I would feel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House... Well, maybe the democrats couldn't make a decision to save their lives, but that's slightly better than making the wrong decision, which is what the current administration seems to be doing all of the time. I for one would prefer an ineffectual government to a downright evil government that's trying to kill me and the rest of the world. Even forgetting all of the domestic attacks on our environment, climate, health care, etc..., the war on terror is doing a better job of creating more terrorists who hate us than ridding the world of terror (admittedly sort of a hard thing for the US to do in earnest, since we've sponsored so much of it through the years...) On the other hand, there is something to be said for the Bush administration's effect on organizing everyone. If Gore or Kerry had won, would we have the massive outrage against the US government that we have now? Probably not. It would have been not that bad, but not that bad is not a goal to strive for. I've heard this argument here a few times, and although I don't entirely agree (it seems a little like saying Hurricaine Katrina and all the deaths it caused was a good thing because it will raise awareness of global warming), there is a point there. From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:47:29 -0700 Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding? We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and after them, Jenna and Barbara. We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding? We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and after them, Jenna and Barbara. We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here! Imagine thinking we'd last that long. I always knew you're an optimist at heart, Robert. :-) Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool
Thanks Keith. Keep on trucking! :-) Right on, Michael. Hitchhikers welcome. No pachouli. Keith (Anybody made biodiesel out of pachouli? Could there be a good use for it after all?) Michael Lendzian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Todd, sorry, I can't figure if you're saying that the purpose of your 833 gallon biodiesel plant is to fight poverty and hunger in the 3rd World, or have I missed the point completely and it's the Northern Tools 1 clear water pump that's helping to fight hunger in poor countries because it's so cheap but that's only because they stole the design from Edwin. Drainbow the evil thief of open-source designs no doubt exists, but other things exist too, like what I said about Joseph Jenkins, and you forget that it's been discussed here quite a few times before. So people steal things, so what? Just as long as it's still there for others to use. The beauty of the digital age, you can steal stuff and it's still there afterwards. I know what I'm saying, we're a constant victim, people keep stealing stuff from us, for years already. There are quite a few people who steal various parts of our website and sell them for $20 on eBay, right now probably. The effect this has on us and what we're trying to achieve is no effect, it doesn't have any effect at all. When we remember it at all we fear for their sinful souls and we wonder how people who'd pay the money when they can get it for nothing anytime and sometimes it even says so manage to get their trousers on the right way round in the morning if indeed they do let alone get the titration right but then as P.T. Barnum said there's one born every minute though on the other hand the world's still going round anyway and so apart from that it doesn't keep us awake much at night. But if I understand you right you'd close down the whole operation because you're not getting the $20 from eBay. I guess you can do that with your operation if you like, if they're selling the 833-gallon reactor page there too, but I hope you don't. I'm sure you wouldn't say that Journey to Forever doesn't count because we didn't invest anything in it like Edwin did. Pan ruti says an oil press from Journey to Forever is being used with poor communities in Brazil. Can't make much sense of the rest, unless you think poverty and hunger exist in isolation without a context. There's a school of thought that says isolation would go a long way towards solving the problem because it would remove most of the context. Yankee go home, in other words, wherever that might be, Holland or Japan or whatever. There's this though: 1) It's rather doubtful that those who can't afford a 100 Eu asking price could afford to construct a prototype on their own even if they had the drawings. Todd Swearingen doesn't know how distributed manufacturing works? The Survival of the Fitter: Lives of some African engineers by John Powell, 1995, Intermediate Technology, ISBN 1853393169 Traces the development of Ghana's informal engineering sector through the progress of the actual people involved. The first generation of grassroots engineers are wayside vehicle mechanics, or fitters, engaged in repairing machinery. Powell shows how the fitter's evolution to a manufacturer of tools, machines and equipment serving a wide range of secondary urban and rural industries, is central to progress in engineering, and that engineering and engineers are central to the development of an economy. From IT Publishing. http://styluspub.com/Books/BookDetail.aspx?productID=46425 Eg. That's why Michael Allen provided engineering drawings for Deep Thort, if you want to compare it with biodiesel reactors. There'd been some talk of patenting it instead but Michael didn't agree and put it in the public domain, and I agree with Michael. They get him for a song, but that's not why he does it. If it is why one does it then let's be clear about that and not confuse the two issues for personal advantage, knowingly or not. Go back two steps and do not collect 100 Euros. :-) Namaste. Keith So who is Edwin trying to kid? Maybe, just maybe, he's not entirely aware of how relative the poverty income rate is in various regions. (A point to which you elude later in your reply.) 100 Euros isn't exactly the wealth of Fort Knox ($122 US), although it remains a relative matter. I rather doubt that it would cost any more than a Northern Tool, one inch, clear water pump at some point in time if it were manufactured at scale. That's about 1/3 of the present asking price of 100 Euros. Not exactly the Bloomingdale price of a Tabbypressen. But Edwin wants it for nothing. All right. So what is it of fair exchange that you would seek in return? Isn't it Edwin who's saying Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? Not exactly. It's rather apparent that he brings something to the table, having put a fair amount of his own time and effort into the extruder. A Drainbow would sit back and watch while another put forward all their efforts, then swoop in and start to enjoy the fruit before the laborer had even tamped the
Re: [Biofuel] A little (more) clarification
Google: white mans burden and William Easterly... Definitely. Some people have been saying some of those things for a long time, including me, and I think you Mike. William Easterly's not the first and not alone, a lot of other bright people have worked on these problems. It's not that there's any lack of effective ways of doing it. The trouble is that aid donors and aid programs don't always think the ways that work well are effective. From previous: A US government website boasts that the principal beneficiary of America's foreign assistance programs has always been the United States. Close to 80% of the US Agency for International Development's contracts and grants go directly to American firms. I can't find that website anymore, but the fact remains, even if the website doesn't. Not just the US. Also: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg53517.html [Biofuel] Bushfood http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg39994.html Re: [Biofuel] US Foreign aid Food Dumping [Aid] Maintains Poverty http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg39995.html [Biofuel] Myth: More US aid will help the hungry http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg37069.html [biofuel] 12 Myths About Hunger William Easterly talks of the toll of malaria and the cost of insecticide-treated mosquito nets, indeed so, but why the DDT? What happened to K.I.S.S. anyway? Just mosquito nets work well. Those guys sure worked that little marketing opportunity effectively. Now everybody wants DDT too, and if you don't like it you're condemning millions of poor Africans to death with your econazi views. Same as dumping GMOs in famine areas. And so on. The confusing names do the rest. Weapons of mass starvation. Best Keith We have to help them. We have to save them. We have to... Michael Redler wrote: When you Google white mans burden, you simply end up with a list of acts committed in the name of...which has grown since Rudyard. Today, the motives for hegemony are hidden and given names designed to confuse people (i.e. humanitarian intervention). Those who are most confused, swallow this crap hook, line and sinker. We have to help them. We have to save them. We have to... Even when they don't want our help or worse, they suffer from it, we continue for their own good. Mike */Bob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Hi y'all, I'd say Rudyard was laughing (he had a great capacity for humour) at the misnomer we have made of his White Man's Burden. Judging out of context is like shooting fish in a barrel. Kipling lived and wrote in a time of Empire, and what he was trying to do was set a few ground rules within the context of Empire. For their time, and within the limits of the age, the rules had merit. His White Man's Burden was written in 1899 in response to the American invasion of the Philippines. His hope was that Americans would be humble in their might and sparing of their use of power. Written more than a century ago, it is eerily prescient of the present debacle in Iraq. The actual words are: Take up the White Man's Burden - Send forth the best ye breed - Go bind your sons to exile To serve your captive's need; To wait in heavy harness On fluttered folk and wild - Your new-caught sullen peoples, Half devil and half child. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Thoughts on the Bush Admninistation
I hope you've got your flame suit on Bobby, LOL! After all, we blew all this out of the water more than three years ago, and ever since. Anyway, me first, with this: Fundamentalist Islam hates America, period. Our way of life is against what their religion teaches and it (our way of life) continues to entice many young people out of Islam. 9/11 happened before the war on terror or the war in Iraq (although it seems many forget this fact). They came on our soil and blew up our buidlings. Swift action had to be taken to send a message to terrorists who wold hate America even if Mickey Mouse was president. There's so much good material in the archives showing that up for the poisonous spin that it is. If you still believe that, let alone believed it in the first place, then you're going to believe it no matter what because you're married to it. So I won't argue with you because it doesn't work on that level anyway. I'll give you a couple of quotes from William Blum instead. Here's one: I'm often told by readers of their encounters with Americans who support the outrages of US foreign policy no matter what facts are presented to them, no matter what arguments are made, no matter how much the government's statements are shown to be false. Included amongst their number are those who still believe that Iraq had a direct involvement in the events of September 11, that Saddam Hussein had close ties to al Qaeda, and/or that weapons of mass destruction were indeed found in Iraq after the 2003 invasion. My advice is to forget such people. They would support the outrages even if the government came to their homes, seized their first born, and hauled them away screaming, as long as the government assured them it was essential to fighting terrorism (or communism). My (very) rough guess is that they constitute no more than 15 percent of the population. I suggest that we concentrate on the rest, who are reachable. [more] http://members.aol.com/bblum6/aer31.htm The Anti-Empire Report Some things you need to know before the world ends March 22, 2006 by William Blum Among which have to be included the Americans who believe that they hate us for our freedoms. (America's fundamentalist so-called Christians seem to hate Americans for their freedoms though, what's left of them.) Osama bin Laden quoted Blum recently too, from this: If I were the president, I could stop terrorist attacks against the United States in a few days. Permanently. I would first apologize -- very publicly and very sincerely -- to all the widows and the orphans, the impoverished and the tortured, and all the many millions of other victims of American imperialism. I would then announce that America's global interventions -- including the awful bombings -- have come to an end. And I would inform Israel that it is no longer the 51st state of the union but -- oddly enough -- a foreign country. I would then reduce the military budget by at least 90% and use the savings to pay reparations to the victims and repair the damage from the many American bombings and invasions. There would be more than enough money. Do you know what one year of the US military budget is equal to? One year. It's equal to more than $20,000 per hour for every hour since Jesus Christ was born. That's what I'd do on my first three days in the White House. On the fourth day, I'd be assassinated. Do you have any idea what he might be referring to? The rest of the world knows it very well. What Blum's talking about has been going on for more than 50 years, not just since Bush replaced Clinton. Seeing these issues in Bush vs Clinton terms is also a non-starter. It's the liberal mainstream media that's the problem, even to the point of bending the truth. Wow. Well, whatever you say. I'll agree that they're weapons of mass deception. The Bush Administration is not trying to kill you. Sounds like a little paranoia. The Bush administration isn't trying to kill anybody. Not even Bin Laden apparently. It just doesn't care who it kills. I doubt that makes Hugo Chavez feel any safer though, among others. Best Keith First of all, I don't think all of the decisions coming out of this administration are wrong; although the media would certainly have you believe so. They really have it out for this president; even to the point of bending the truth and hiding other elements of it. Not to say that this administration has not done the same thing at times, but we've come to expect this in politics, unfortunately. The thing I like about Bush is that he is not afraid to say how he feels and believes. He is not afraid to make a decision. Sometimes indecision is better than making a wrong decision in the eyes of many, but sometimes indecision and inaction is very dangerous. The gripes that you hear coming out of those who are against Bush and this government aren't all problems that this administration created. You can't blame Bush for
Re: [Biofuel] Thoughts on the Bush Admninistation
Bobby, But if you are upset about illegal immigration or the lack of a future for social security, you can't rightfully blame Bush. You don't have a problem with taking a growing surplus (pre-Bush) and turning it into a deficit that will take 30 years to recover from (present Bush) and viewing it as an issue that grew out of but one administration? but sometimes indecision and inaction is very dangerous. And you think that anyone but Bush would have just thrown up their hands and whimpered? What about the possibility that they would have analyzed the facts and come up with a completely different conclusion, therefore a completely different and probably a less destructive response? Better than 75% of the world's population did, the majority of which weren't even Ivy League graduates. Serious reservations -to the point of nearly 100% - exist whether anyone other than Bush would have manipulated non-existant, doubtful and forged data into dire threats of the next time being in the form of a mushroom cloud. Fundamentalist Islam hates America, period. That's a little twisted. More like some fundamentalists hate America. Even then it's not necessarily America or Americans, rather the brain-dead and self-serving tactics used by a nation to subvert anything not to their liking, among which you can include military presence on their soils to preserve self-interests. Uh, such as stability of oil flow under the veil of national security? All inclusive statements that encompass an entire segment of people are usually enormously flawed. Todd Swearingen Bobby Clark wrote: The Bush Administration is not trying to kill you. Sounds like a little paranoia. First of all, I don't think all of the decisions coming out of this administration are wrong; although the media would certainly have you believe so. They really have it out for this president; even to the point of bending the truth and hiding other elements of it. Not to say that this administration has not done the same thing at times, but we've come to expect this in politics, unfortunately. The thing I like about Bush is that he is not afraid to say how he feels and believes. He is not afraid to make a decision. Sometimes indecision is better than making a wrong decision in the eyes of many, but sometimes indecision and inaction is very dangerous. The gripes that you hear coming out of those who are against Bush and this government aren't all problems that this administration created. You can't blame Bush for everything; well, I guess you can but you'd be wrong. Many of the problems the nation faces today have been lingering for 15-20 years or longer. I didn't hear anyone griping about them when Clinton was in office beacuse most people liked Clinton. You see, for a lot of people it is personal. Now if you are against the war in Iraq; then you can blame Bush. If you are upset about rising fuel costs, you can partially blame Bush (which I do, by the way). But if you are upset about illegal immigration or the lack of a future for social security, you can't rightfully blame Bush. These were problems that were there before he ever took office, but I often still hear people blaming him for them. As far as terrorism goes; Bush usn't inciting people anymore than they were already. Fundamentalist Islam hates America, period. Our way of life is against what their religion teaches and it (our way of life) continues to entice many young people out of Islam. 9/11 happened before the war on terror or the war in Iraq (although it seems many forget this fact). They came on our soil and blew up our buidlings. Swift action had to be taken to send a message to terrorists who wold hate America even if Mickey Mouse was president. I don't agree with this administration on everything; in fact, I disagree with it a lot. However, I don't let my personal feelings take me on wild flights of fancy like the governement is completely evil or the government is trying to kill me. It is in those statements that logic is absent. Bobby Clark From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 08:18:11 -0600 On 4/19/06, Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I would feel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House... Well, maybe the democrats couldn't make a decision to save their lives, but that's slightly better than making the wrong decision, which is what the current administration seems to be doing all of the time. I for one would prefer an ineffectual government to a downright evil government that's trying to kill me and the rest of the world. Even forgetting all of the domestic attacks on our
Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool
Hitchhikers welcome. No pachouli. Communist Jesus would have worn patchouli. Guess he must have been a Dead Head to boot. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: Thanks Keith. Keep on trucking! :-) Right on, Michael. Hitchhikers welcome. No pachouli. Keith (Anybody made biodiesel out of pachouli? Could there be a good use for it after all?) Michael Lendzian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Thoughts on the Bush Admninistation
Bobby, It is many things you can attach to Bush. I agree with you on many of the things you choose, but you are quite selective in those choices. The responsibility for war in Iraq, more than 100,000 Iraqi death and a couple thousand (plus) Americans, is firmly at Bush doorstep. It had nothing to do with 9/11, terrorists or anything else about American security, except temporary stopping the dollars fall from world monetary standard. Erosion of the dollar is maybe an important security issue, but the war does not provide a permanent solution or improve the long term prospects. The man is incompetent and personally I think that you have all the rights to choose him as president, as a Nation you must however take the long term international responsibility for what he has done in your name and the effects on the rest of the world. I hope that you have noticed that the majority of the industrial and developing nations are very much against the US policies and refuse to accommodate them. It took years for him to discover that US is addictive to oil (LOL), this years of indecision is also at Bush feet. He have done a lot of decisions, but avoided the maybe most important ones. We still have to see any sign of really important decisions on this. Oil is unfortunately at the moment the life blood of the development of the world and US is sucking up 25% of it. As a democracy, you have the President you deserve, in good and in bad. Hakan At 20:03 19/04/2006, you wrote: The Bush Administration is not trying to kill you. Sounds like a little paranoia. First of all, I don't think all of the decisions coming out of this administration are wrong; although the media would certainly have you believe so. They really have it out for this president; even to the point of bending the truth and hiding other elements of it. Not to say that this administration has not done the same thing at times, but we've come to expect this in politics, unfortunately. The thing I like about Bush is that he is not afraid to say how he feels and believes. He is not afraid to make a decision. Sometimes indecision is better than making a wrong decision in the eyes of many, but sometimes indecision and inaction is very dangerous. The gripes that you hear coming out of those who are against Bush and this government aren't all problems that this administration created. You can't blame Bush for everything; well, I guess you can but you'd be wrong. Many of the problems the nation faces today have been lingering for 15-20 years or longer. I didn't hear anyone griping about them when Clinton was in office beacuse most people liked Clinton. You see, for a lot of people it is personal. Now if you are against the war in Iraq; then you can blame Bush. If you are upset about rising fuel costs, you can partially blame Bush (which I do, by the way). But if you are upset about illegal immigration or the lack of a future for social security, you can't rightfully blame Bush. These were problems that were there before he ever took office, but I often still hear people blaming him for them. As far as terrorism goes; Bush usn't inciting people anymore than they were already. Fundamentalist Islam hates America, period. Our way of life is against what their religion teaches and it (our way of life) continues to entice many young people out of Islam. 9/11 happened before the war on terror or the war in Iraq (although it seems many forget this fact). They came on our soil and blew up our buidlings. Swift action had to be taken to send a message to terrorists who wold hate America even if Mickey Mouse was president. I don't agree with this administration on everything; in fact, I disagree with it a lot. However, I don't let my personal feelings take me on wild flights of fancy like the governement is completely evil or the government is trying to kill me. It is in those statements that logic is absent. Bobby Clark From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 08:18:11 -0600 On 4/19/06, Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I would feel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House... Well, maybe the democrats couldn't make a decision to save their lives, but that's slightly better than making the wrong decision, which is what the current administration seems to be doing all of the time. I for one would prefer an ineffectual government to a downright evil government that's trying to kill me and the rest of the world. Even forgetting all of the domestic attacks on our environment, climate, health care, etc..., the war on terror is doing a better job of creating more terrorists who hate us than ridding the world of terror
Re: [Biofuel] Thoughts on the Bush Admninistation
Bobby Clark wrote: The Bush Administration is not trying to kill you. Sounds like a little paranoia. That all depends on which side you're on. The current polarization of debate in the United States underscores an us versus them mentality pervading the minds of many Americans. With this administration's neo-facist tendency to pander to polluters and essentially make class action accountability for malfeasance all but impossible, the paranoia to which you refer has substantive evidence undergirding the claim. This administration's promotion of a corporate agenda at the expense of the health and safety of the American public has been well discussed in the past. First of all, I don't think all of the decisions coming out of this administration are wrong; although the media would certainly have you believe so. You've GOT to be kidding! I've heard so much dreck from this administration go utterly unchallenged in the US news media that I'm embarrassed to admit that I'm an American. This is true even on NPR, which is frequently lambasted by neo conservatives as some kind of liberal megaphone. They really have it out for this president; even to the point of bending the truth and hiding other elements of it. Not to say that this administration has not done the same thing at times, but we've come to expect this in politics, unfortunately. Who has it out for this president? Every time there's a dissenting voice, it gets screamed down. Every time there's a HINT of scandal, it gets brushed aside. Hard questions get ducked, and the audiences that Mr. Bush appears in front of are carefully screened to ensure there are no dissidents present. The thing I like about Bush is that he is not afraid to say how he feels and believes. He is not afraid to make a decision. Sometimes indecision is better than making a wrong decision in the eyes of many, but sometimes indecision and inaction is very dangerous. So it's ok to attack other nations without provocation under the guise of being decisive? It's ok to lie to the American people because our president feels that God has urged him to attack someone? People who are mentally ill are often not afraid to say how they feel, and they often make decisions quickly. Does that make them effective leaders? The gripes that you hear coming out of those who are against Bush and this government aren't all problems that this administration created. You can't blame Bush for everything; well, I guess you can but you'd be wrong. Many of the problems the nation faces today have been lingering for 15-20 years or longer. I didn't hear anyone griping about them when Clinton was in office beacuse most people liked Clinton. You see, for a lot of people it is personal. I didn't like Mr. Clinton, and you're right that many problems with respect to American policy have existed for a long time (a lot longer than 20 years, which only puts us into Mr. Reagan's term), but one of the fall back positions I've heard from neo cons is a constant reference to Mr. Clinton's administration as if he was responsible for the difficulties Mr. Bush is facing. Our current president has been in office long enough to be accountable for the MANY problems he's created. When are we going to start hearing some accountability in American government, no matter WHO is in office? Now if you are against the war in Iraq; then you can blame Bush. If you are upset about rising fuel costs, you can partially blame Bush (which I do, by the way). But if you are upset about illegal immigration or the lack of a future for social security, you can't rightfully blame Bush. These were problems that were there before he ever took office, but I often still hear people blaming him for them. Why not? Where does the buck stop? He's been so focused on terror that MANY domestic functions of government have been neglected. As far as terrorism goes; Bush usn't inciting people anymore than they were already. Fundamentalist Islam hates America, period. Our way of life is against what their religion teaches and it (our way of life) continues to entice many young people out of Islam. 9/11 happened before the war on terror or the war in Iraq (although it seems many forget this fact). They came on our soil and blew up our buidlings. Swift action had to be taken to send a message to terrorists who wold hate America even if Mickey Mouse was president. Oh boy! You'd better do some reading in the archives, sir! This is a topic that's been settled in this forum for a very long time. I don't agree with this administration on everything; in fact, I disagree with it a lot. However, I don't let my personal feelings take me on wild flights of fancy like the governement is completely evil or the government is trying to kill me. It is in those statements
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Make that weed whacker. Appal Energy wrote: Well don't call me brilliant. Now I know what a glaive is where I didn't before - a poor man's week wacker, eh? Todd Swearingen Fred Finch wrote: Todd breaks out the verbal glaive while I grab the nearest thought of a broken beer bottle. Sometimes I swear I still feel like a mental midget here! Damn fine writing! fred On 5/10/06, *Appal Energy* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice sarcasm there Bobby. Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. Would be interesting to see precisely what you base that remark on other than the pablam you've apparently nursed on from clowns such as Limbrain, entertainment programs such as Fox News or web sites such as Swift Boat Vets who wouldn't know truth if it bit them square on both butt cheeks. As if the wrong-thinking of a mentally challenged puppet hiding behind a crown of thorns, whose decisions are set to disembowel clean water and air, efficiency, conservation and alternative fuels, have embroiled all nations, killed untold tens-of-thousands in a wrongfully prosecuted war, brought the country closer to a state of economic collapse, and pandered to the single issue voter instead of the total country he was supposed to serve and protect is a standard to be held in high regard. I'd say something about twisted logic. But the appearance is that logic played no role in your comment. Todd Swearingen Bobby Clark wrote: Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. I would feel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House... From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying? Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:47:29 -0700 Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stay after his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. I doubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left other than the hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding? We could have Jeb, then Neil, then Marvin, and after them, Jenna and Barbara. We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] my opinion of Northern Tool
Hitchhikers welcome. No pachouli. Communist Jesus would have worn patchouli. Guess he must have been a Dead Head to boot. LOL!!! But wasn't he a communist? He wouldn't have made biodiesel out of it though, stick to the point. Or maybe he would've. Do you make biodiesel out of it? And are you a Dead Head? Well you can wreathe an undeserving world in fumes of patchouli and Jerry Garcia if you so wish, but real he-men listen to Duane Eddy and burn garlic oil biodiesel because they don't care. Keith Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: Thanks Keith. Keep on trucking! :-) Right on, Michael. Hitchhikers welcome. No pachouli. Keith (Anybody made biodiesel out of pachouli? Could there be a good use for it after all?) Michael Lendzian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
Somehow Week Whacker seems fitting too!On 5/10/06, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Make that weed whacker.Appal Energy wrote:Well don't call me brilliant. Now I know what a glaive is where I didn't before - a poor man's week wacker, eh?Todd SwearingenFred Finch wrote:Todd breaks out the verbal glaive while I grab the nearest thought of a broken beer bottle.Sometimes I swear I still feel like a mental midget here!Damn fine writing!fredOn 5/10/06, *Appal Energy* [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Nice sarcasm there Bobby. Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nationdepended on it. Would be interesting to see precisely what you base that remark onotherthan the pablam you've apparently nursed on from clowns such asLimbrain, entertainment programs such as Fox News or web sites such as Swift Boat Vets who wouldn't know truth if it bit them square on bothbutt cheeks.As if the wrong-thinking of a mentally challenged puppet hidingbehind a crown of thorns, whose decisions are set to disembowel clean water andair, efficiency, conservation and alternative fuels, haveembroiled allnations, killed untold tens-of-thousands in a wrongfully prosecuted war,brought the country closer to a state of economic collapse, andpanderedto the single issue voter instead of the total country he wassupposed to serve and protect is a standard to be held in high regard.I'd say something about twisted logic. But the appearance is thatlogicplayed no role in your comment. Todd SwearingenBobby Clark wrote:Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in officethat couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended onit. I wouldfeel really safe if the democrats had control of the White House... From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:47:29 -0700Hakan Falk wrote: US missed an opportunity in the last election, but Bush cannot stayafter his period, if he does not also try to pull AH's last trick. Idoubt that this can be done in US, nothing is really left otherthanthe hope that next election will be more kind to the world. Are you kidding?We could have Jeb, then Neil, thenMarvin, andafter them, Jenna and Barbara.We could have a Bush family dynasty for better than 50 years over here!robert luis rabelloThe Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.caRanger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives(50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.4/318 - Release Date: 4/18/2006___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
I always wondered why you sound so funny when you talk... Michael Redler wrote: Don't worry Fred. Todd certainly has a talent for stringing words together and having it mean something. But, as long as you get your point across, it's all good. BTW, I've always felt that in order to use the full range of a language, one needs to look beyond their dictionary and incorporate a little grit (broken beer bottle) every now and then. :-) Mike */Fred Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Todd breaks out the verbal glaive while I grab the nearest thought of a broken beer bottle. Sometimes I swear I still feel like a mental midget here! Damn fine writing! fred On 5/10/06, *Appal Energy* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice sarcasm there Bobby. Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. Would be interesting to see precisely what you base that remark on other than the pablam you've apparently nursed on from clowns such as Limbrain, entertainment programs such as Fox News or web sites such as Swift Boat Vets who wouldn't know truth if it bit them square on both butt cheeks. As if the wrong-thinking of a mentally challenged puppet hiding behind a crown of thorns, whose decisions are set to disembowel clean water and air, efficiency, conservation and alternative fuels, have embroiled all nations, killed untold tens-of-thousands in a wrongfully prosecuted war, brought the country closer to a state of economic collapse, and pandered to the single issue voter instead of the total country he was supposed to serve and protect is a standard to be held in high regard. I'd say something about twisted logic. But the appearance is that logic played no role in your comment. Todd Swearingen [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?
I resemble that remark!!On 4/19/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I always wondered why you sound so funny when you talk...Michael Redler wrote: Don't worry Fred. Todd certainly has a talent for stringing words together and having it mean something. But, as long as you get your point across, it's all good. BTW, I've always felt that in order to use the full range of a language, one needs to look beyond their dictionary and incorporate a little grit (broken beer bottle) every now and then. :-) Mike */Fred Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Todd breaks out the verbal glaive while I grab the nearest thought of a broken beer bottle. Sometimes I swear I still feel like a mental midget here! Damn fine writing! fred On 5/10/06, *Appal Energy* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice sarcasm there Bobby. Yeah, the US missed the opportunity to have someone in office that couldn't make a decision if the life and health of the nation depended on it. Would be interesting to see precisely what you base that remark on other than the pablam you've apparently nursed on from clowns such as Limbrain, entertainment programs such as Fox News or web sites such as Swift Boat Vets who wouldn't know truth if it bit them square on both butt cheeks. As if the wrong-thinking of a mentally challenged puppet hiding behind a crown of thorns, whose decisions are set to disembowel clean water and air, efficiency, conservation and alternative fuels, have embroiled all nations, killed untold tens-of-thousands in a wrongfully prosecuted war, brought the country closer to a state of economic collapse, and pandered to the single issue voter instead of the total country he was supposed to serve and protect is a standard to be held in high regard. I'd say something about twisted logic. But the appearance is that logic played no role in your comment. Todd Swearingen [snip]___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] copper plumbing
What about copper in the condenser? Would some copper in the methanol kill the fuel. Or does it not dissolve in methanol? Another reactivity question; how about sweated [lead free solder}copper piping and brass valves for plumbing on a processor ? Thanks for all the info Andrew Leven Copper and SVO: I'm not so worried about the copper but what the copper does to the fuel. Did you ever check what happened to your fuel properties like oxidation stability and acid value? A lot of research has been done in Germany on VO (and biodiesel) fuel properties, and who I consider as the leading experts clearly warn against using copper in connection with VO because of the catalytic effect it has on the VO. The laboratory ASG Analytik-Service (http://www.asg-analytik.de), who were involved in the research leading to the Rape Seed Oil Fuel Standard, says that just a few PPM of copper in VO will change the oxidation stability... [In SVO systems] with a catalytic metal, I think you have the best conditions and environment for decomposition of the VO, and the effects it has on the fuel properties again have an impact on the engine performance, engine conditions (lifetime) and emissions composition. -- Niels Ansø, Folkecenter, Denmark Effects of copper on SVO: Standardisierung von Rapsöl als Kraftstoff - Untersuchungen zu Kenngröben, Prüfverhafen und Grenzwerten, by Edgar Remmele, thesis on vegetable oil as fuel -- see pp 144-146 for the effects of copper on vegetable oil. Acrobat file, 1.4Mb - in German. http://tumb1.biblio.tu-muenchen.de/publ/diss/ww/2002/remmele.pdf -- From: Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] BioPerformance
I am such a miserable curmudgeon. I mean, how could I possibly be suspicious of this spam e-mail that has arrived in my in-box three times in three days? *Bio*Performance after all! Has to be great! The website has lots of green lettering on it. Testimonials. Possible savings of 10% to 25% on fuel costs, gasoline or diesel - doesn't matter. For just $7 worth of pills (plus shipping and taxes), I could save up $10 or more on a tankful of fuel! What a deal! This stuff is even better than magnets. (By the way, still no takers on my blind A-B-A magnets testing offer.) Odd though, I can't find the money-back guarantee on my fuel savings, just lots of caveats about how I have to use the stuff consistently, and savings may not be evident until after I have used lots of the pills, or the powder if the pills don't work. Must be an oversight. That and the lack of third-party, documented testing. But the reduced emissions are justification enough (hmmm, another oversight - those aren't documented either). I mean, this stuff is based on enzymes AND Brownian motion! And according the the e-mail, it's practically patriotic for Americans to use this stuff and reduce their oil consumption. What a breakthrough, and just when America needs it - it's practically a miracle! Probably works twice as well with biodiesel, I mean with *Bio*Performance and *bio*diesel, it would have to, right? I suppose I ought to be fair and not prejudge them. So, does anyone have any knowledge of this product or company that would indicate this is not a scam? On a lighter note, I got to transplant raspberries today (they keep trying to migrate south) - very uplifting. Two weeks ago it was winter, now it's summer, 21 degrees C outside, over 50 in the greenhouse. Better green in the yard than green with envy over Robert's climate. The garden's drying out - it's all I can do to resist seeding it right now. Have to do a little refit on the solar water heater instead, and get it set up for the season. Darryl Original Message Subject: Save 25% on Gas Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:13:01 -0400 From: Adrian Herritt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: Bio Performance To: vehicle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tired of rising gas prices? BioPerformance can help! You can save up to .50 cents a gallon, and make money while doing it - with moderate to no effort. We want to introduce to you a revolutionary new product that is going to enable us to make an impact in the effort to reduce this country's dependency on foreign oil. Recently, in the state of the union address, President Bush discussed how this country is too dependent on foreign oil sources and how we need to develop a means to reduce this dependency. And BioPerformance Fuel is here! BioPerformance Fuel will have no negative impact on or cause internal damage to our vehicles. This product is merely a catalyst that lowers the flashpoint of our fuel, which allows for easier ignition. It will in turn, because of dispersant quality, enable fuel to burn more efficiently. This will provide a more complete combustion cycle, resulting in fewer emissions expelled from our exhaust systems. Ultimately it will take less fuel to create the horsepower necessary to operate our engines. It only makes sense that our vehicles will use less fuel and create a better environment to be passed on to future generations. BioPerformance Fuel can be beneficial for use in our vehicles and equipment. It raises both detergent and lubrication qualities of our fuel to further assist in preventing fuel system failures. And BioPerformance Inc. guarantees the use of BioPerformance Fuel to be safe for use in any internal combustion engine. We are very excited to extend an offer of opportunity as well! BioPerformance offers distributorship to those interested in working with an experienced online personal marketing team - useful for creating residual income either working part-time or full-time. Our team has conference calls, scripts, websites, 3 way calling, a line right to a marketing person to help explain PPC advertising as well as other internet marketing strategies. If you are interested we can sign you up and get you access to our tools and advertising materials so you can start making commissions right away. We also offer a free website! Ask us about it! If you understand the potential for savings across the country you should feel very comfortable sharing this universally welcomed product with anyone you see. If you are interested do not hesitate to visit our website at www.go-bp.com, or give us a call; Warm Regards, Adrian Herritt BioPerformance IBO Marketing and Sales Phone: 423.504.1944 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- If you do not wish to receive any additional promotional offers from
[Biofuel] pump position problem
Hello. I have a problem with my new processor. I asked the person who was selling it if it was self priming and he responded yes, it could even suck water from 6meters. Ofcourse I didnt believe him, but I hotught that it probabbly could manage 40 cm. Well it cant. And #305; have already mounted above the fluid level. I have to use a vaccum pump to pull the wvo in to the pump :( Is there anotherh alternative? Can anytone help? THank you in advance Teoman Rudtard Kipling is rolling is his grave but William Easterly probably approves of pretty much everything you've said. Michael Redler wrote: I just wanted to chime in here. Keith wrote: It reached a stage here where the list would not have survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, we didn't just make them up. It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression, screening all posts before distribution (for example). This forum proves that a loose framework is very effective at maintaining individual freedoms while allowing it's membership to participate in maintaining continuity. Kim: I read some of your posts and couldn't help notice the similarities between your views and the ideology driving the White Man's Burden. Maybe it's time to rethink the ideals to which we, in the US, have been indoctrinated. Maybe it's a good time to question the perceived credibility and legacy left behind by people like McCarthy and accept the fact that it's not acceptable to steer the culture, economy and government of another country simply because you feel you're better. You wrote: Our right to determine the direction of our life today is unparalleled in human history. So, Babylon, Ancient Greece, etc. don't count. The Magna Carta was just a piece of paper (if I can borrow an expression from our president). There have been and are, better examples of democracy in human history than the republic we Americans pretend to push on others in the process of building an empire. Do some research on our Constitution and it's origins. It will lead you in a few directions - one of which is toward the Iroquois nation. Ask an Iroquois about their right to determine their life - if you can find one. You talk about the reassignment of land for the greater good but conveniently under emphasize the eradication of those people in the process of fulfilling that illusion. Mike */Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Hello Kim Greetings, I do believe that many people on this list don't read real well. I think you're relying on it. No doubt a new subject-title and dumping all the evidence helps. The ones who disagree with you read quite well though. The un-keyhole view is of Kim trying to backpedal her way up a pedestal, in defiance of the laws of gravity and pedals. I did say I was in favor of colonizing the stars, not the colonizing that happened in past history and is happening today by the corporate world. Um, sorry, not so. In fact you were also criticised for the colonising the stars bit, and you ignored that too. But for a lot of forbearance you could have got the boot just for that, and much besides. You should read the list rules again. They're there for a reason. It reached a stage here where the list would not have survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, we didn't just make them up. They had to be put into a form that people could be referred to and told to read and comply with when they joined. If not no list any more long ago already. A major reason for it was to put a stop to this kind of vanishing act that denialists of all stripes like to pull with what they said yesterday. You're not a denialist? But you walk the walk. The rules are all about integrity. Please go and read them. http://snipurl.com/mx7r I do find good in many bad situations. Do I wish that certain changes had come about in a more humane manner, of course. Part of getting over hatred is seeing that even though you hated a situation, some personal good came from it. Hatred is bad for the person who hates, not the person who is hated. Morally and spiritually, indeed so. Practically, well, what will you say, Kim? At least the victims were pure of heart when they got slaughtered so it was a Good Thing for them, they didn't get the chance to pollute their spirits with negative feelings like hatred afterwards? Only a pessimistic person who sees no hope for humanity and knows nothing about history could disagree, eh? Sure, you didn't say that, but it's not far from what you did say, which you're now trying to sweep under the corner of the carpet, as usual. That's right, I'm going to unsweep it a little, did you think I wouldn't? You think some strange things. What made you think I wouldn't
Re: [Biofuel] pump position problem
hi Teoman, A pump who could suck 6 meter and a pump who is self priming, are not the same thing ( always). Some are self priming but don't suck from deep down. other pumps can suck-up from even 8 meters but can't start that them selfs ( out of a dry start position ). and then there are pumps who can do both or non of the above. ;-) But we can't answer your question if your not telling us witch pump you have, type, make, model? diameter and length from the pipes? Has it a non-retour valve at the suction side? What are you gonna pump, cold WVO, hot SVO, BD, Methanol? And did you buy only a pump or a complete processor as you described it? grts Bruno M. ~~ At 22:26 19/04/2006, teoman wrote: Hello. I have a problem with my new processor. I asked the person who was selling it if it was self priming and he responded yes, it could even suck water from 6meters. Ofcourse I didnt believe him, but I hotught that it probabbly could manage 40 cm. Well it cant. And #305; have already mounted above the fluid level. I have to use a vaccum pump to pull the wvo in to the pump :( Is there anotherh alternative? Can anytone help? THank you in advance Teoman Rudtard Kipling is rolling is his grave but William Easterly probably approves of pretty much everything you've said. . made a very big snip here ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Thoughts on the Bush Admninistation
9/11 happened before the war on terror ... Formerly known as the cold war, or the Vietnam war. Empires will always have perceived enemies to attempt conquering. Bobby if you have the time, clear your mind and watch this 3 part BBC documentary. http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares Many people feel America's wars/invasions have an agenda that acts contrary to your reasoning of sending a message. One of your presidents warned against it in his farewell speech decades ago. War is business. Here is a link to an award winning American film on the subject. http://www.sonyclassics.com/whywefight/ Peace Marc ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Creekstone farms
Does anyone have any new news on creekstone's fight with the USDA over their testing of beef stock? it just kind of vanished after a while. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A little (more) clarification
Hi Keith, Thanks for those urls, and the reminder about Milner, Cecil John and his financier mates. Point taken but off the point of which more in a moment. I once posed for a picture (fully clothed I hasten to add) in Rhodes bath, a massive Victorian monstrosity in his Rondebosch mansion, and reflected how times had changed. The house was then occupied by one John Vorster whom I was there to interview. Nattering aside, I didn't come to praise Rudyard, I came to bury him within his context. He lived in a time of empire. Within that narrow ken he held fast to basic human values still extant today. Nothing much to argue with in lines such as Fill full the mouth of famine/And bid the sickness cease nor in By open speech and simple/An hundred times made plain/ To seek another's profit/And work another's gain. His poem was aimed at Americans who were then making their first major imperial venture. His hope was that he could deflect them from errors made long before by Imperial Britain. His hope was vain, but well expressed. He was a gadfly to imperialists, anti-war to the core and all too conscious of the transience of human achievement. His Recessional of 1897, written at the height of empire, scandalised the establishment. The Widow's Party, an anti-war poem about the Widow of Windsor (Queen Victoria), ensured that he would never be offered the post of Poet Laureate. (Forgive my childish enthusiasms, I've been a Kipling freak since I first read If at school and then went on to research his work at varsity. ). As for Milner and his kindergarten of little bureaucrats, again context please. He was sent out to do a job. South Africa, after three years of a ruinous war was a disaster area, and not just for the Boers. It was the Brits greatest public relations disaster in the history of their empire, one from which they never recovered and which eventually destroyed the Tories. Milner was told to fix it. He did what any man of vision would do, he looked around for men of substance, the movers and shakers, the deal makers and the button pressers, and brought them on board. His success in healing the Boer/Brit divide and getting the shattered economy up and running only became apparent a decade or so later in World War One when Boer and Brit fought side by side. After the interview with Vorster, he told me his grandfather had ridden in the commando that bottled up Rhodes for some months in Kimberley during the Boer War. We were sitting on that magnificent verandah at Groote Schuur, looking out across the incredible gardens that Rhodes had created. I asked if he felt any sense of triumph or achievement. He laughed and said: Interview over, but off the record, it doesn't do to boast. Certainly not in Africa. Who knows who will be sitting here in 20 years time. It was a prescient remark. Barely 20 years later I saw a news picture of Nelson Mandela sitting on that verandah. And, I can't quite swear to this, it looked like the same damn chair. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A little (more) clarification Hi Bob Hi y'all, I'd say Rudyard was laughing (he had a great capacity for humour) at the misnomer we have made of his White Man's Burden. Judging out of context is like shooting fish in a barrel. Kipling lived and wrote in a time of Empire, and what he was trying to do was set a few ground rules within the context of Empire. For their time, and within the limits of the age, the rules had merit. His White Man's Burden was written in 1899 in response to the American invasion of the Philippines. His hope was that Americans would be humble in their might and sparing of their use of power. Written more than a century ago, it is eerily prescient of the present debacle in Iraq. Did you know that Kipling was a founder member of Milner's Round Table? The back-room of all back-rooms, darling of the conspiracy theorists, whatever would they have to talk about over tea otherwise. It was founded by Rhodes and Milner, along with Kipling, Maurice Hankey, Arthur Balfour, Lord Rothschild et al, American members Morgan, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Warburg... There were several responses to Kipling's White Man's Burden. Here's one: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1903blackburden.html Edward Morel: Black Man's Burden 1903 Another: http://www.swans.com/library/art8/xxx074.html The Brown Man's Burden, by Henry Labouchère - 1899 Another: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5476/ The Black Man's Burden: A Response to Kipling Best Keith The actual words are: Take up the White Man's Burden - Send forth the best ye breed - Go bind your sons to exile To serve your captive's need; To wait in heavy harness On fluttered folk and wild - Your new-caught sullen peoples, Half devil and half child. Take up the White Man's Burden - In patience to abide, To veil the threat
Re: [Biofuel] pump position problem
Is there anotherh alternative? Can anytone help? Depends on how your pump is plumbed in. If you can, put a standpipe with a valve in front of the intake on the pump. You can charge (fill) the standpipe with whatever liquid is appropriate for whatever you're trying to pump and use that charge as a pump primer. Todd Swearingen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello. I have a problem with my new processor. I asked the person who was selling it if it was self priming and he responded yes, it could even suck water from 6meters. Ofcourse I didnt believe him, but I hotught that it probabbly could manage 40 cm. Well it cant. And #305; have already mounted above the fluid level. I have to use a vaccum pump to pull the wvo in to the pump :( Is there anotherh alternative? Can anytone help? THank you in advance Teoman Rudtard Kipling is rolling is his grave but William Easterly probably approves of pretty much everything you've said. Michael Redler wrote: I just wanted to chime in here. Keith wrote: It reached a stage here where the list would not have survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, we didn't just make them up. It's also too common to see a reactionary restriction of expression, screening all posts before distribution (for example). This forum proves that a loose framework is very effective at maintaining individual freedoms while allowing it's membership to participate in maintaining continuity. Kim: I read some of your posts and couldn't help notice the similarities between your views and the ideology driving the White Man's Burden. Maybe it's time to rethink the ideals to which we, in the US, have been indoctrinated. Maybe it's a good time to question the perceived credibility and legacy left behind by people like McCarthy and accept the fact that it's not acceptable to steer the culture, economy and government of another country simply because you feel you're better. You wrote: Our right to determine the direction of our life today is unparalleled in human history. So, Babylon, Ancient Greece, etc. don't count. The Magna Carta was just a piece of paper (if I can borrow an expression from our president). There have been and are, better examples of democracy in human history than the republic we Americans pretend to push on others in the process of building an empire. Do some research on our Constitution and it's origins. It will lead you in a few directions - one of which is toward the Iroquois nation. Ask an Iroquois about their right to determine their life - if you can find one. You talk about the reassignment of land for the greater good but conveniently under emphasize the eradication of those people in the process of fulfilling that illusion. Mike */Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Hello Kim Greetings, I do believe that many people on this list don't read real well. I think you're relying on it. No doubt a new subject-title and dumping all the evidence helps. The ones who disagree with you read quite well though. The un-keyhole view is of Kim trying to backpedal her way up a pedestal, in defiance of the laws of gravity and pedals. I did say I was in favor of colonizing the stars, not the colonizing that happened in past history and is happening today by the corporate world. Um, sorry, not so. In fact you were also criticised for the colonising the stars bit, and you ignored that too. But for a lot of forbearance you could have got the boot just for that, and much besides. You should read the list rules again. They're there for a reason. It reached a stage here where the list would not have survived unless we'd formulated the rules, which were already there, we didn't just make them up. They had to be put into a form that people could be referred to and told to read and comply with when they joined. If not no list any more long ago already. A major reason for it was to put a stop to this kind of vanishing act that denialists of all stripes like to pull with what they said yesterday. You're not a denialist? But you walk the walk. The rules are all about integrity. Please go and read them. http://snipurl.com/mx7r I do find good in many bad situations. Do I wish that certain changes had come about in a more humane manner, of course. Part of getting over hatred is seeing that even though you hated a situation, some personal good came from it. Hatred is bad for the person who hates, not the person who is hated. Morally and spiritually, indeed so. Practically, well, what will you say, Kim? At least the victims were pure of heart when they got slaughtered so it was a Good Thing for them, they didn't get the chance to pollute their spirits with negative feelings like hatred afterwards? Only a pessimistic person who sees no hope for humanity and knows nothing about history could disagree, eh?
Re: [Biofuel] Creekstone farms
Not really. See http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0420/p02s01-woam.html Jason Katie wrote: Does anyone have any new news on creekstone's fight with the USDA over their testing of beef stock? it just kind of vanished after a while. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Bill Gates into Bio-Ethanol production
Bill Gates (Yep the one from Micro$oft) with his investment company Cascade Investment, L.L.C., dives into bio fuels so to see. Who said Ethanol out of corn is no good? ;-) grts Bruno M. ~~ www.pacificethanol.net/_documents/PacificEthanolEquityandDebtFinancing_041706 Fresno, California, April 17, 2005, Pacific Ethanol, Inc. (Nasdaq: PEIX) announced today that it has completed the offering and sale of 5,250,000 shares of Series A Cumulative Redeemable Convertible Preferred Stock for $84 million to Cascade Investment, L.L.C. ... A portion of the proceeds from the preferred stock offering and all of the proceeds from the debt financing will be used to complete construction of Pacific Ethanol's ethanol production plant in Madera County, California. This plant is currently under construction and is scheduled to be completed and begin operations in the fourth quarter of 2006. The remaining portion of the proceeds from the preferred stock offering will be used to pay a portion of the costs of construction of other ethanol plants on the West Coast. Pacific Ethanol has announced plans to construct and operate five ethanol plants in the Western United States by the end of 2008 with an expected combined installed annual ethanol capacity of at least 200 million gallons. ... === ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Tiny Reactor Boosts Biodiesel Production
http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/ap/2006/04/19/ap2681244.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
