[Biofuel] FW:GM food is a scam

[Kirk McLoren]

  

A variety of genetically modified corn that was approved for human 
consumption in 2006 caused signs of liver and kidney toxicity as well as 
hormonal changes in rats in a study performed by researchers from the 
independent Committee for Independent Research and Genetic Engineering at the 
University of Caen in France.

Jump directly to: conventional view | alternative view | resources | bottom line

  What you need to know - Conventional View• The corn in question, MON863, is 
made by the Monsanto Company and approved for use in Australia, Canada, China, 
the European Union, Japan, Mexico, the Philippines, and the United States. It 
has had a gene inserted from the bacteria Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt), which 
causes the plant's cells to produce a pesticide.

• Researchers fed rats either unmodified corn or diets containing 11 or 30 
percent MON863 for 90 days. The rats who ate modified corn were found to 
exhibit signs of liver and kidney toxicity, as well as signs of hormonal 
changes.

• Male rats lost an average of 3.3 percent of their body weight, and their 
excretion of phosphorus and sodium decreased. Female rats gained an average of 
3.7 percent of their body weight, while their triglyceride levels increased by 
24 to 40 percent.

• The mechanism that causes the toxicity is not yet known, but the researchers 
say there is evidence that the Bt toxin may cause the perforation of blood 
cells. They expressed concern that the methods used by Monsanto in initial 
tests of the corn were statistically flawed and called their own tests "the 
best mammalian toxicity tests available."

• Greenpeace responded to the study by calling for an immediate recall of all 
MON863 corn and the reassessment of all genetically modified foods currently 
approved for the market.

• Quote: "Our counter-evaluation shows that there are signs of toxicity, and 
nobody can say scientifically and seriously the consumption of the transgenic 
maize MON863 is safe and good for health." - Lead Author Gilles Eric Seralini

  What you need to know - Alternative ViewStatements and opinions by Mike 
Adams, author of Grocery Warning: How to identify and avoid dangerous food 
ingredients

• It seems that the more these GM foods are tested, the more frightening the 
implications seem to be for human health. When companies like Monsanto do their 
own in-house testing, results are mysteriously favorable in nearly all cases, 
but when independent labs run their own tests, the results are downright 
shocking.

• I find it interesting that the FDA believes U.S. consumers should not be 
allowed to know which foods are genetically modified and which aren't. The push 
for honest labeling of GM foods has been blockaded by corporate interests and 
corrupt federal regulators.

  Resources you need to knowThe Campaign for labeling of GM foods: 
http://www.thecampaign.org

  Bottom line• A variety of genetically modified corn was found to cause signs 
of hormonal changes and liver and kidney toxicity in rats. 

###


   
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Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi

[Andres Secco]

Right. I saw it transparent also  like gelatine.
Potato protein or animal protein, Animal is white. Depends on what was fried 
with the raw oil.


Is it clogged with a whitish-looking gel?

Andres Secco wrote:

>If it is 100% biodiesel can be  the fuel filter. This device is clogged by
>some incomplete reacted portions of the oil.
>There are some proteins wich forms a gelatine around the filtering system.
>It is a common problem and can be solved in the biodiesel factory adding
>some products to precipitate proteins.
>If it is 20% blend there is a poor biodiesel manufacturing practice to save
>methanol or dirty oil being used and unproperly treated before reaction.
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "fox mulder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 1:15 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi
>
>
>
>
>>Dear All,
>>I have VW Passat TDi. I have been using the biodiesel
>>for 2 and 1/2 years, I find that the fuel filter
>>begins to clog up after 6 months. Loss of power
>>becomes apparent. Further at speed fuel supply cuts
>>off. After coming to a halt, the car does not start
>>again. After half an hour, the car restarts. Does any
>>one know whether its the fuel filter or the fuel pump?
>>regards
>>
>>fox
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi

[Mike Weaver]

Is it clogged with a whitish-looking gel?

Andres Secco wrote:

>If it is 100% biodiesel can be  the fuel filter. This device is clogged by 
>some incomplete reacted portions of the oil.
>There are some proteins wich forms a gelatine around the filtering system. 
>It is a common problem and can be solved in the biodiesel factory adding 
>some products to precipitate proteins.
>If it is 20% blend there is a poor biodiesel manufacturing practice to save 
>methanol or dirty oil being used and unproperly treated before reaction.
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "fox mulder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 1:15 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi
>
>
>  
>
>>Dear All,
>>I have VW Passat TDi. I have been using the biodiesel
>>for 2 and 1/2 years, I find that the fuel filter
>>begins to clog up after 6 months. Loss of power
>>becomes apparent. Further at speed fuel supply cuts
>>off. After coming to a halt, the car does not start
>>again. After half an hour, the car restarts. Does any
>>one know whether its the fuel filter or the fuel pump?
>>regards
>>
>>fox
>>
>>
>> ___
>>Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up 
>>for
>>your free account today 
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>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>>messages):
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>
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>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi

Hi Fox

Check with these guys, they know more about TDI's than anyone around.

http://www.tdiclub.com/




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of fox mulder
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 10:15 AM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi

Dear All,
I have VW Passat TDi. I have been using the biodiesel for 2 and 1/2 years, I 
find that the fuel filter begins to clog up after 6 months. Loss of power 
becomes apparent. Further at speed fuel supply cuts off. After coming to a 
halt, the car does not start again. After half an hour, the car restarts. Does 
any one know whether its the fuel filter or the fuel pump?
regards

fox


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Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi

[Mike Weaver]

Also check the fuel return system - the filter has a return - be sure 
the lines are clear.  I added an inexpensive and (easily replaced) clear 
inline filter before the big expensive filter and I've never had any 
problems with the main fuel filter.  When I did finally change it at 60k 
, it had a fair amount of gunk in it but was still working.
If you fiddle with your fuel lines remember to clamp the line leading 
out of the filter and into the pump so it doesn't fill up w/ air.

Kirk McLoren wrote:

> The only auto problem similar to what you describe that I am familiar 
> with was a friend changed his gas cap and the new one wasnt 
> venting. The engine would starve and after a while enough air got in 
> the tank that you could start it. I guess some tanks have a vent 
> separate from the cap.
>  
> Kirk
>
> */fox mulder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Dear All,
> I have VW Passat TDi. I have been using the biodiesel
> for 2 and 1/2 years, I find that the fuel filter
> begins to clog up after 6 months. Loss of power
> becomes apparent. Further at speed fuel supply cuts
> off. After coming to a halt, the car does not start
> again. After half an hour, the car restarts. Does any
> one know whether its the fuel filter or the fuel pump?
> regards
>
> fox
>
>
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> sign up for
> your free account today
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>  
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Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water

[Mike Weaver]

It's been my experience that if given the choice between a USD 50k 
granite and Viking kitchen, or USD 50k worth of
energy-saving upgrades, the kitchen wins everytime.


Hakan Falk wrote:

>So, it is the building code and inspection regime that does not work.
>With a good building code and inspection regime, the basic standard
>is set to meet the needs of the buyer and the state, It brings a leveled
>play ground for the contractors, who cannot afford to not meet the code,
>but price differences are then smaller,
>
>Hakan
>
>
>
>At 06:38 PM 8/6/2007, you wrote:
>  
>
>>It's not so much the construction that I think gets shortchanged, as
>>the design.  Most construction workers I've met, even illegal
>>immigrants getting pretty bad pay, take pride in their work, and they
>>wouldn't build a crappy house on purpose.  However, if it's designed
>>with only R-25 insulation and no low-e windows, that's what they put
>>in there.  It's the design decisions where I think that eventual owner
>>is getting cheated.  Code is good for making sure houses don't fall
>>down, but they are not very stringent for energy efficiency or such...
>>
>>And to some extent, you can't completely blame the developers, because
>>they are only building what people want.  People, when they are
>>looking at a new house, don't even ask about the efficiency -- so,
>>yes, if the buyers were more informed, the builders would have some
>>motivation to address those concerns.
>>
>>
>>On 8/6/07, Jeromie Reeves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 8/6/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>  
>>>
On 8/5/07, Andres Secco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



>>> In planning a house, an apartment building, even a 
>>>  
>>>
>>shopping mall,
>>
>>
>>>one
>>>should not even CONSIDER water quality that is available. ???
>>>  
>>>
>>In a house, the designer, builder, contractors, NO they should not
>>unless the building owner wants them to. Why should it be the
>>responsibility of anyone except the land owner, or the person
>>commissioning the house?
>>
>>
Very few houses in the US are built under direction of the eventual
landowner or person who will live in the house.  They are built by
developers who's only goal is to make money.   Not provide housing.
Since the buyer is unknown, and probably not that well educated on
details on construction, they can cut alot of corners and usually end
up building houses that really should be bulldozed the minute that are
completed.   Insulation... why put that in -- no one thinks about that
till they get their first heating bill.  Efficient appliances?  Water
quality?  Same thing.   The average potential house buyer will no
notice their lack until it's too late, so don't bother spending money
there.   Fancier countertops will be noticed by the potential buyer up
front, so that's a much better place to spend money in the
construction.


>>>I agree that happens. There are some HUD houses in town where I have
>>>clients and the work there was sub standard. The guy I bought my house
>>>from is a framer and I can promise the house he works on do not get
>>>short changed. Sure the primary contractor on the job wants to make
>>>money (just like most of us) but he is not a crook. The building
>>>inspector makes sure things are to code and not a crappy job. They
>>>inspect at many stages of the building process. The guy who was on the
>>>job when the HUD houses were built has since been let go. IMO they
>>>should have made the contractors rebuild the HUD homes but people were
>>>lazy from top to bottom.In my experience a majority of construction
>>>companies are not thieves. My friend that does home evaluations picks
>>>up on short cuts and the price of the house will reflect it. Anyone
>>>who is buying a home should have a independent inspector/evaluator. If
>>>they do not they have only them selves to blame. Its not like this
>>>information is secret, any realestate company should be able to get
>>>you in contact with a few.[my opinion] I think this comes back
>>>primarily to people being lazy.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
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Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water

[Hakan Falk]

So, it is the building code and inspection regime that does not work.
With a good building code and inspection regime, the basic standard
is set to meet the needs of the buyer and the state, It brings a leveled
play ground for the contractors, who cannot afford to not meet the code,
but price differences are then smaller,

Hakan



At 06:38 PM 8/6/2007, you wrote:
>It's not so much the construction that I think gets shortchanged, as
>the design.  Most construction workers I've met, even illegal
>immigrants getting pretty bad pay, take pride in their work, and they
>wouldn't build a crappy house on purpose.  However, if it's designed
>with only R-25 insulation and no low-e windows, that's what they put
>in there.  It's the design decisions where I think that eventual owner
>is getting cheated.  Code is good for making sure houses don't fall
>down, but they are not very stringent for energy efficiency or such...
>
>And to some extent, you can't completely blame the developers, because
>they are only building what people want.  People, when they are
>looking at a new house, don't even ask about the efficiency -- so,
>yes, if the buyers were more informed, the builders would have some
>motivation to address those concerns.
>
>
>On 8/6/07, Jeromie Reeves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 8/6/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On 8/5/07, Andres Secco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >>  In planning a house, an apartment building, even a 
> shopping mall,
> > > > >> one
> > > > >> should not even CONSIDER water quality that is available. ???
> > > > >
> > > > > In a house, the designer, builder, contractors, NO they should not
> > > > > unless the building owner wants them to. Why should it be the
> > > > > responsibility of anyone except the land owner, or the person
> > > > > commissioning the house?
> > >
> > > Very few houses in the US are built under direction of the eventual
> > > landowner or person who will live in the house.  They are built by
> > > developers who's only goal is to make money.   Not provide housing.
> > > Since the buyer is unknown, and probably not that well educated on
> > > details on construction, they can cut alot of corners and usually end
> > > up building houses that really should be bulldozed the minute that are
> > > completed.   Insulation... why put that in -- no one thinks about that
> > > till they get their first heating bill.  Efficient appliances?  Water
> > > quality?  Same thing.   The average potential house buyer will no
> > > notice their lack until it's too late, so don't bother spending money
> > > there.   Fancier countertops will be noticed by the potential buyer up
> > > front, so that's a much better place to spend money in the
> > > construction.
> >
> > I agree that happens. There are some HUD houses in town where I have
> > clients and the work there was sub standard. The guy I bought my house
> > from is a framer and I can promise the house he works on do not get
> > short changed. Sure the primary contractor on the job wants to make
> > money (just like most of us) but he is not a crook. The building
> > inspector makes sure things are to code and not a crappy job. They
> > inspect at many stages of the building process. The guy who was on the
> > job when the HUD houses were built has since been let go. IMO they
> > should have made the contractors rebuild the HUD homes but people were
> > lazy from top to bottom.In my experience a majority of construction
> > companies are not thieves. My friend that does home evaluations picks
> > up on short cuts and the price of the house will reflect it. Anyone
> > who is buying a home should have a independent inspector/evaluator. If
> > they do not they have only them selves to blame. Its not like this
> > information is secret, any realestate company should be able to get
> > you in contact with a few.[my opinion] I think this comes back
> > primarily to people being lazy.
> >
> > >
> > > ___
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> (50,000 messages):
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> > >
> > >
> >
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Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi

[Kirk McLoren]

The only auto problem similar to what you describe that I am familiar with was 
a friend changed his gas cap and the new one wasnt venting. The engine would 
starve and after a while enough air got in the tank that you could start it. I 
guess some tanks have a vent separate from the cap.
   
  Kirk

fox mulder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Dear All,
I have VW Passat TDi. I have been using the biodiesel
for 2 and 1/2 years, I find that the fuel filter
begins to clog up after 6 months. Loss of power
becomes apparent. Further at speed fuel supply cuts
off. After coming to a halt, the car does not start
again. After half an hour, the car restarts. Does any
one know whether its the fuel filter or the fuel pump?
regards

fox 


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Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi

[Andres Secco]

If it is 100% biodiesel can be  the fuel filter. This device is clogged by 
some incomplete reacted portions of the oil.
There are some proteins wich forms a gelatine around the filtering system. 
It is a common problem and can be solved in the biodiesel factory adding 
some products to precipitate proteins.
If it is 20% blend there is a poor biodiesel manufacturing practice to save 
methanol or dirty oil being used and unproperly treated before reaction.

- Original Message - 
From: "fox mulder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi


> Dear All,
> I have VW Passat TDi. I have been using the biodiesel
> for 2 and 1/2 years, I find that the fuel filter
> begins to clog up after 6 months. Loss of power
> becomes apparent. Further at speed fuel supply cuts
> off. After coming to a halt, the car does not start
> again. After half an hour, the car restarts. Does any
> one know whether its the fuel filter or the fuel pump?
> regards
>
> fox
>
>
>  ___
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> for
> your free account today 
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 

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Re: [Biofuel] VW Passat TDi

[fox mulder]

Dear All,
I have VW Passat TDi. I have been using the biodiesel
for 2 and 1/2 years, I find that the fuel filter
begins to clog up after 6 months. Loss of power
becomes apparent. Further at speed fuel supply cuts
off. After coming to a halt, the car does not start
again. After half an hour, the car restarts. Does any
one know whether its the fuel filter or the fuel pump?
regards

fox 


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Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water

[Zeke Yewdall]

It's not so much the construction that I think gets shortchanged, as
the design.  Most construction workers I've met, even illegal
immigrants getting pretty bad pay, take pride in their work, and they
wouldn't build a crappy house on purpose.  However, if it's designed
with only R-25 insulation and no low-e windows, that's what they put
in there.  It's the design decisions where I think that eventual owner
is getting cheated.  Code is good for making sure houses don't fall
down, but they are not very stringent for energy efficiency or such...

And to some extent, you can't completely blame the developers, because
they are only building what people want.  People, when they are
looking at a new house, don't even ask about the efficiency -- so,
yes, if the buyers were more informed, the builders would have some
motivation to address those concerns.


On 8/6/07, Jeromie Reeves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 8/6/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 8/5/07, Andres Secco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > >>  In planning a house, an apartment building, even a shopping mall,
> > > >> one
> > > >> should not even CONSIDER water quality that is available. ???
> > > >
> > > > In a house, the designer, builder, contractors, NO they should not
> > > > unless the building owner wants them to. Why should it be the
> > > > responsibility of anyone except the land owner, or the person
> > > > commissioning the house?
> >
> > Very few houses in the US are built under direction of the eventual
> > landowner or person who will live in the house.  They are built by
> > developers who's only goal is to make money.   Not provide housing.
> > Since the buyer is unknown, and probably not that well educated on
> > details on construction, they can cut alot of corners and usually end
> > up building houses that really should be bulldozed the minute that are
> > completed.   Insulation... why put that in -- no one thinks about that
> > till they get their first heating bill.  Efficient appliances?  Water
> > quality?  Same thing.   The average potential house buyer will no
> > notice their lack until it's too late, so don't bother spending money
> > there.   Fancier countertops will be noticed by the potential buyer up
> > front, so that's a much better place to spend money in the
> > construction.
>
> I agree that happens. There are some HUD houses in town where I have
> clients and the work there was sub standard. The guy I bought my house
> from is a framer and I can promise the house he works on do not get
> short changed. Sure the primary contractor on the job wants to make
> money (just like most of us) but he is not a crook. The building
> inspector makes sure things are to code and not a crappy job. They
> inspect at many stages of the building process. The guy who was on the
> job when the HUD houses were built has since been let go. IMO they
> should have made the contractors rebuild the HUD homes but people were
> lazy from top to bottom.In my experience a majority of construction
> companies are not thieves. My friend that does home evaluations picks
> up on short cuts and the price of the house will reflect it. Anyone
> who is buying a home should have a independent inspector/evaluator. If
> they do not they have only them selves to blame. Its not like this
> information is secret, any realestate company should be able to get
> you in contact with a few.[my opinion] I think this comes back
> primarily to people being lazy.
>
> >
> > ___
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> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> > messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
>
> ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water

[Andres Secco]

Places were drinking water is not available is a totally different thing.
Would I need to describe how the wasted packing material contaminates the 
world and how the PET bottles do its part? Or any other plastics? It does 
not contaminates the water inside the bottle (hope the manufacturer did a 
good polimerization work) but does with the environment were it is disposed.

- Original Message - 
From: "Jeromie Reeves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water


On 8/5/07, Andres Secco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Purify water with reverse osmosis?
> Friends, it strongly depends on what contamination has in it.
> Drinking water is far more complicated to produce than one step processing
> as reverse osmosis, electrodyalisis or simple or complex devices.
> Destilation is what mother nature do for us for free, then aireation in
> natural streams, simple isn´t it?

What do we do when there is no ready water source available?

> I agree that packing systems contaminates too much, lots of energy and
> dangerous raw materials.

Can you describe how the packing system contaminates the bottled
watter? Do you have some figures on how much energy it takes to filter
and bottle water en masse as compared to the number of small
processors or a city scale one it would take for the same volume?
Dangerous is what ways and to what/whom?

> We are fools as a society, we buy the international companies "bright" 
> ideas
> as tab bottled. I know many bottling facilities and all of them bottle tap
> water or well water, and label them with pure mountains and glaciars,
> bullshit. And consumer buys and buys.
> A pity, but that is the way the things are.

Not all companies do that. The one I linked near the start of the
thread uses a capped spring. The water comes up naturally and flows to
a pool that is then used to feed the bottling plant. There is a
mountain in the background of the logo, the facility sits in a valley
at 3400feet between 7000ft mountains (I am 10 miles from the site in
the same valley)

I agree a lot of bottling companies are little more then flim flam
artists. Is there any kind of legislation we can request that will
help?


>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jeromie Reeves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 4:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water
>
>
> > On 8/5/07, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Jeromie,
> >>
> >>  To my question:
> >>  "Isn't it possible to purify water by reverse osmosis, or whatever, on 
> >> a
> >> small scale so that people can have good drinking water in their own
> >> houses/apartments/places of work?"
> >>  You answered:
> >> " Yup that is possible. I have seen and used a number of small water
> >>  purifiers .."
> >>
> >> Thanks for the reply
> >>
> >> As for the rest, I'm baffled. (I admit to falling for tongue-in-cheek
> >> humor
> >> here in the past.)
> >
> > I'm also not the best at getting my ideas and thoughts across the way I
> > mean.
> >
> >>
> >> >>At $1 - $3 for half a liter of bottled water wouldn't the price of
> >> >> filtration quickly pay for itself ?
> >>
> >> > Depends on how much you drink. The small systems are in the $500
> >> > range. When I buy water its $1/bottle and I only do 50~75/year. I 
> >> > make
> >> > a lot of tea and it is all with tap.
> >>
> >>  Exactly!
> >>  A family of four then, would consume 200 -300 bottles a year. The
> >> system pays for itself in about 2 years.
> >>  The fact that you use tap water to make your tea suggests that 
> >> your
> >> tap
> >> water is at least tolerable.
> >
> > I have a family of 4. My children do not get any where near that much
> > bottled material. They get 1 each per weekend when we do trips. We
> > make a gallon of tea, juice, lemon aid, or such and reuse the bottles
> > for them. For us (well mostly me) I drink what we take along. My wife
> > buys 15~20 bottles a month, mostly on the weekends.
> >
> >>
> >> >>  Shouldn't housing plans, whether for individual families or
> >> >> apartments,
> >> >> consider water quality and, if necessary, include water filtration
> >> >> units
> >> >> in
> >> >> the design?
> >>
> >> > No, they should not, at least not only because the water might be
> >> > poor. That is a business decision and something the builder has no
> >> > need to do, unless they want to charge for it. The home buyer can 
> >> > have
> >> > it build in if/when they want it, it adds VERY little to the price of
> >> > the home. As for apartments that is a city responsibility, and the
> >> > city should be held accountable for good water.
> >>
> >>  In planning a house, an apartment building, even a shopping mall,
> >> one
> >> should not even CONSIDER water quality that is available. ???
> >
> > In a house, the designer, builder, contractors, NO they should not
> > unless the building owne

Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's....

[Keith Addison]

Hello Jeromie

>On 8/5/07, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Jeromie Reeves wrote:
> >
> > >Whats with the miss direction?
> >
> > You are accusing me of misdirection? That is not wise.
>
>That is how I came across but was not my intention.

It's not only how you came across, it's what you said. I'm a 
journalist of 40 years' standing with an unblemished record that gets 
me access anywhere I want to go, and you've accused me in a public 
forum of misdirection. That is a serious matter. It would be a 
serious matter even if I wasn't a journalist, and just as serious if 
it were another list member, or anyone.

Do you often say things you don't intend to say? And then side-step 
responsibility for it by saying you didn't mean it?

Meanwhile you're accusing other people not only of misdirection but 
of sloppiness and opinionating too. But so far the sloppiness, 
opinionating, misdirection and general carelessness are all yours.

> > >This is not on topic to the discussion
> > >at hand (the bottle waste and poison).
> >
> > You have become a topic cop too? That is also not wise. I suggest you
> > (re)read the List rules.
> >
> > No "miss direction", Mr Reeves, the discussion branched, as they
> > quite naturally do.
>
>I did not notice that it had branched, the subject line was the same
>and my email client grouped it with the original thread.

You read a sequence of three messages and didn't notice the subject 
had changed, even though you commented on the new subject. That 
doesn't make much sense.

> > >On this subject, the study is
> > >skewed too.
> >
> > What do you mean "too"? What else is "skewed"?
>
>Because I thought this was still in the same thread. Some articles
>amounted to little more then a opinion poll at best, at worst just
>sloppy poll taking. The method was bad, the sample group to small.

In your opinion. We'll see who is being sloppy, see below.

> > >With more people living in the cities the less % of kids
> > >in the rural areas to effect it. I know of a school in Oregon that had
> > >a 50% pregnancy rate in its high school, course there were 2 teenage
> > >girls in the school. Out here its more like 1 in 5 do not play outside
> > >and even those get more outside time then the average city kid
> >
> > Are you going to claim that you read the whole of this story too? Did
> > it sink in that it's not a US study but a British one? Please produce
> > your evidence that the study omitted the results of rural-urban shift
> > in Britain to support your claim that it is "skewed".
>
>Your right, I did read it and I had my glasses on, it did not sink in
>that Britain has a vastly different sprawl then the US does.

Sloppy.

>From the
>numbers in the report I figured it did not matter that it was since
>the method of sampling was less then useful for anything but a
>propaganda article.

Really?

>They sampled 1031 adults 18+ across the UK, a
>population of a bit under 60million. They also left a lot of holes in
>the report about where the missing %'s are at.

Nobody posted the report, nor a link to it, so it seems you went and 
checked, did you do that before or since? Well, never mind. Anyway 
you've got it wrong - they sampled 2061 adults, not 1031. I doubt you 
know whether they left "a lot of holes" in the report or not, since 
they only provide a summary of it at their website:
http://www.ncb.org.uk/playday/docs/Street-play-opinion-poll-summary.doc

They do offer a breakdown of statistics on request, as well as 
further commissioned research. Have you accessed this further 
information?

Not that it matters much because your basic premise is wrong (below).

>Same for stating "a
>majority of" from a sample of youth ages 7-16. What happened with the
>17 year olds?

Do 17-year-olds play kids' games?

>The study was done with less then a 10th of a percent of
>the population. In my opinion that made it skewed, the same as the
>water taste/quality study.

In what way was the water taste/quality study skewed? People in many 
communities were given blind samples and nearly all of them couldn't 
tell the difference. What's skew? The articles posted showed that 
other quality aspects were not assured. There was substance to it, 
you provide no substance, just empty opinionations. You ask others 
for data and figures and details but you make no attempt to offer any 
yourself.

Regarding your claims about samples being too small, obviously 
polling has its limitations no matter how it's conducted, a sampling 
cannot be the same as the whole, but it can be a useful 
representation of the whole. A great deal of work has been done in 
the last few decades on refining poll-sampling methods, well-funded 
work, since polling is an important sub-set of Madison Ave and Wall 
St. The sampling methods get checked out every which way, it's all 
rather rigorous. Most polls are commissioned, they're not cheap, and 
their results are applied in the real world. If they're without 
sufficient basis they won'

Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water

[Jeromie Reeves]

On 8/5/07, Andres Secco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Purify water with reverse osmosis?
> Friends, it strongly depends on what contamination has in it.
> Drinking water is far more complicated to produce than one step processing
> as reverse osmosis, electrodyalisis or simple or complex devices.
> Destilation is what mother nature do for us for free, then aireation in
> natural streams, simple isn´t it?

What do we do when there is no ready water source available?

> I agree that packing systems contaminates too much, lots of energy and
> dangerous raw materials.

Can you describe how the packing system contaminates the bottled
watter? Do you have some figures on how much energy it takes to filter
and bottle water en masse as compared to the number of small
processors or a city scale one it would take for the same volume?
Dangerous is what ways and to what/whom?

> We are fools as a society, we buy the international companies "bright" ideas
> as tab bottled. I know many bottling facilities and all of them bottle tap
> water or well water, and label them with pure mountains and glaciars,
> bullshit. And consumer buys and buys.
> A pity, but that is the way the things are.

Not all companies do that. The one I linked near the start of the
thread uses a capped spring. The water comes up naturally and flows to
a pool that is then used to feed the bottling plant. There is a
mountain in the background of the logo, the facility sits in a valley
at 3400feet between 7000ft mountains (I am 10 miles from the site in
the same valley)

I agree a lot of bottling companies are little more then flim flam
artists. Is there any kind of legislation we can request that will
help?


>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jeromie Reeves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 4:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water
>
>
> > On 8/5/07, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Jeromie,
> >>
> >>  To my question:
> >>  "Isn't it possible to purify water by reverse osmosis, or whatever, on a
> >> small scale so that people can have good drinking water in their own
> >> houses/apartments/places of work?"
> >>  You answered:
> >> " Yup that is possible. I have seen and used a number of small water
> >>  purifiers .."
> >>
> >> Thanks for the reply
> >>
> >> As for the rest, I'm baffled. (I admit to falling for tongue-in-cheek
> >> humor
> >> here in the past.)
> >
> > I'm also not the best at getting my ideas and thoughts across the way I
> > mean.
> >
> >>
> >> >>At $1 - $3 for half a liter of bottled water wouldn't the price of
> >> >> filtration quickly pay for itself ?
> >>
> >> > Depends on how much you drink. The small systems are in the $500
> >> > range. When I buy water its $1/bottle and I only do 50~75/year. I make
> >> > a lot of tea and it is all with tap.
> >>
> >>  Exactly!
> >>  A family of four then, would consume 200 -300 bottles a year. The
> >> system pays for itself in about 2 years.
> >>  The fact that you use tap water to make your tea suggests that your
> >> tap
> >> water is at least tolerable.
> >
> > I have a family of 4. My children do not get any where near that much
> > bottled material. They get 1 each per weekend when we do trips. We
> > make a gallon of tea, juice, lemon aid, or such and reuse the bottles
> > for them. For us (well mostly me) I drink what we take along. My wife
> > buys 15~20 bottles a month, mostly on the weekends.
> >
> >>
> >> >>  Shouldn't housing plans, whether for individual families or
> >> >> apartments,
> >> >> consider water quality and, if necessary, include water filtration
> >> >> units
> >> >> in
> >> >> the design?
> >>
> >> > No, they should not, at least not only because the water might be
> >> > poor. That is a business decision and something the builder has no
> >> > need to do, unless they want to charge for it. The home buyer can have
> >> > it build in if/when they want it, it adds VERY little to the price of
> >> > the home. As for apartments that is a city responsibility, and the
> >> > city should be held accountable for good water.
> >>
> >>  In planning a house, an apartment building, even a shopping mall,
> >> one
> >> should not even CONSIDER water quality that is available. ???
> >
> > In a house, the designer, builder, contractors, NO they should not
> > unless the building owner wants them to. Why should it be the
> > responsibility of anyone except the land owner, or the person
> > commissioning the house?
> >
> > In a apartment building its up to the building owner. Do I want a
> > higher end apt with more features then the one down the block? Do i
> > want a pool? A gated drive? Covered parking spots? Else wise, it is
> > the job of the city.
> >
> > In a shopping mall or such, the same thoughts as the apt building
> > apply, but the city water should be good enough. If it is not they
> > should get the city to fix the water quality, that is the job of the
>

Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's....

[Jeromie Reeves]

On 8/5/07, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeromie Reeves wrote:
>
> >Whats with the miss direction?
>
> You are accusing me of misdirection? That is not wise.

That is how I came across but was not my intention.

>
> >This is not on topic to the discussion
> >at hand (the bottle waste and poison).
>
> You have become a topic cop too? That is also not wise. I suggest you
> (re)read the List rules.
>
> No "miss direction", Mr Reeves, the discussion branched, as they
> quite naturally do.

I did not notice that it had branched, the subject line was the same
and my email client grouped it with the original thread.

>
> >On this subject, the study is
> >skewed too.
>
> What do you mean "too"? What else is "skewed"?

Because I thought this was still in the same thread. Some articles
amounted to little more then a opinion poll at best, at worst just
sloppy poll taking. The method was bad, the sample group to small.

>
> >With more people living in the cities the less % of kids
> >in the rural areas to effect it. I know of a school in Oregon that had
> >a 50% pregnancy rate in its high school, course there were 2 teenage
> >girls in the school. Out here its more like 1 in 5 do not play outside
> >and even those get more outside time then the average city kid
>
> Are you going to claim that you read the whole of this story too? Did
> it sink in that it's not a US study but a British one? Please produce
> your evidence that the study omitted the results of rural-urban shift
> in Britain to support your claim that it is "skewed".

Your right, I did read it and I had my glasses on, it did not sink in
that Britain has a vastly different sprawl then the US does. From the
numbers in the report I figured it did not matter that it was since
the method of sampling was less then useful for anything but a
propaganda article. They sampled 1031 adults 18+ across the UK, a
population of a bit under 60million. They also left a lot of holes in
the report about where the missing %'s are at. Same for stating "a
majority of" from a sample of youth ages 7-16. What happened with the
17 year olds? The study was done with less then a 10th of a percent of
the population. In my opinion that made it skewed, the same as the
water taste/quality study.


I am sorry that I came across in a rude or disputatious manor, it was
not my intention. I apologize for my lack of clarity, I know it is a
issue I have and try very hard to sure I am writing what I am meaning.

>
> Keith Addison
> Journey to Forever
> KYOTO Pref., Japan
> http://journeytoforever.org/
> Biofuel list owner
>
>
>
> >On 8/5/07, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >Fritz Friesinger wrote:
> > > > > Hey Jeromie,
> > > > > whats wrong with kids running in the streets?
> > > >
> > > >I'm guessing the potential to becoming road kill?
> > > >Doug, N0LKK
> > > >Kansas USA inc.
> > >
> > >
> >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/30/nplay1
> >30.xml
> > > Telegraph
> > > Drive to get children playing outdoors
> > >
> > > By Ben Farmer
> > >
> > > Last Updated: 1:50am BST 31/07/2007
> > > Only one in five of today's children play outside in the street or
> > > local parks every day, according to new research.
> > >
> > > A fear of traffic accidents, paedophiles or bullies, and the growth
> > > of home electronic entertainment, has meant a whole generation are
> > > growing up without the joys of playing free in their neighbourhood.
> > > While their parents may have whiled away the summer holidays playing
> > > cowboys and indians or impromptu games of football, today's children
> > > are more likely to stay indoors or take part in organised sports
> > > sessions - and are more likely to be overweight.
> > >
> > > The poll by Play England, which comes at the start of a campaign to
> > > encourage children to play outside, found 21 per cent of children
> > > play outside every day, whereas 71 per cent of adults had played
> > > outside in their youth.
> > >
> > > A quarter of children said traffic prevented them playing close to
> > > their homes, while adults also cited so-called "stranger danger" as a
> > > reason for not letting their children play outside. Adrian Voce, the
> > > director of lottery-funded Play England, said: "Children are not
> > > allowed out the way they used to be." He said growing rates of
> > > obesity in childhood were one symptom of fewer children getting
> > > enough exercise outside.
> > >
> > > "If you keep children cooped up in front of the computer for long
> > > periods of time, they eat less healthily because food becomes a
> > > source of stimulation," said Mr Voce.
> > >
> > > Fwd from a friend:
> > >
> > > TO ALL THE KIDS WHO SURVIVED the 1930's, 40's, 50's,
> > > > 60's and 70's!!
> > > >
> > > > First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked
> > > > and/or drank while they were pregnant.
> > > >
> > > > They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna
> > > > from a can, and didn't get tested for dia

Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water

[Jeromie Reeves]

On 8/6/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 8/5/07, Andres Secco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > >>  In planning a house, an apartment building, even a shopping mall,
> > >> one
> > >> should not even CONSIDER water quality that is available. ???
> > >
> > > In a house, the designer, builder, contractors, NO they should not
> > > unless the building owner wants them to. Why should it be the
> > > responsibility of anyone except the land owner, or the person
> > > commissioning the house?
>
> Very few houses in the US are built under direction of the eventual
> landowner or person who will live in the house.  They are built by
> developers who's only goal is to make money.   Not provide housing.
> Since the buyer is unknown, and probably not that well educated on
> details on construction, they can cut alot of corners and usually end
> up building houses that really should be bulldozed the minute that are
> completed.   Insulation... why put that in -- no one thinks about that
> till they get their first heating bill.  Efficient appliances?  Water
> quality?  Same thing.   The average potential house buyer will no
> notice their lack until it's too late, so don't bother spending money
> there.   Fancier countertops will be noticed by the potential buyer up
> front, so that's a much better place to spend money in the
> construction.

I agree that happens. There are some HUD houses in town where I have
clients and the work there was sub standard. The guy I bought my house
from is a framer and I can promise the house he works on do not get
short changed. Sure the primary contractor on the job wants to make
money (just like most of us) but he is not a crook. The building
inspector makes sure things are to code and not a crappy job. They
inspect at many stages of the building process. The guy who was on the
job when the HUD houses were built has since been let go. IMO they
should have made the contractors rebuild the HUD homes but people were
lazy from top to bottom.In my experience a majority of construction
companies are not thieves. My friend that does home evaluations picks
up on short cuts and the price of the house will reflect it. Anyone
who is buying a home should have a independent inspector/evaluator. If
they do not they have only them selves to blame. Its not like this
information is secret, any realestate company should be able to get
you in contact with a few.[my opinion] I think this comes back
primarily to people being lazy.

>
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Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water

[Zeke Yewdall]

On 8/5/07, Andres Secco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >>  In planning a house, an apartment building, even a shopping mall,
> >> one
> >> should not even CONSIDER water quality that is available. ???
> >
> > In a house, the designer, builder, contractors, NO they should not
> > unless the building owner wants them to. Why should it be the
> > responsibility of anyone except the land owner, or the person
> > commissioning the house?

Very few houses in the US are built under direction of the eventual
landowner or person who will live in the house.  They are built by
developers who's only goal is to make money.   Not provide housing.
Since the buyer is unknown, and probably not that well educated on
details on construction, they can cut alot of corners and usually end
up building houses that really should be bulldozed the minute that are
completed.   Insulation... why put that in -- no one thinks about that
till they get their first heating bill.  Efficient appliances?  Water
quality?  Same thing.   The average potential house buyer will no
notice their lack until it's too late, so don't bother spending money
there.   Fancier countertops will be noticed by the potential buyer up
front, so that's a much better place to spend money in the
construction.

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