Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
I had a little meeting last year about renewable fuels with Oaf-icials of the Alberta ministries of Environment, Agriculture and Energy, with only the agriculture guy having alot of useful input. He thought it wasn't a problem to distill for fuel purposes (after all, Canada did ratify Kyoto Acc!) but all the oaf-icial paperwork I've obtained includes miles of red-tape (way more than in the US)and seems to imply that a Canada Customs oaf-icial must be present when operating - as if! It would be an interesting precedent-making court case, for anyone caring to tackle it... K Fuse On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Ken Provost wrote: On Oct 28, 2005, at 9:40 PM, robert luis rabello wrote: It's illegal for individuals to distill ethanol in Canada. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I've looked into this and if I could have obtained a permit, I would have done so already. Ethanol would be a wonderful fuel for a little hot rod truck like mine! Are Canadians typically a very law-abiding people? Just curious. Many US citizens would not think twice about skipping the permit, if they had some reason to believe they wouldn't get caught. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Also starting out
Hi, all: I'm really excited to be participating on the biofuels mailing list. I recently learned about biodiesel from a friend and my interest in sustainable technologies was rekindled. Currently, nobody in my circle owns or operates a diesel vehicle. I have begun my search for a suitable one; like many of the list members I am seeking a vehicle that has a reputation for extreme durability and might even be useful in an off-road circumstance. I've narrowed it down to the Toyota Land Cruiser, 1975-1990, with a 3B diesel in it, though I'm open to other suggestions. I live in Canada, so whatever it is should be covered and should be able to handle cold weather and have towing capacity. I have also been exploring fully self-sufficient means of producing biodiesel; this would require making the biodiesel using anhydrous ethanol and potash (KOH). I realise it's not without its challenges, but I know that people have inquired and we know it is possible, so I'm looking at distilling ethanol for this purpose. I would welcome any advice on doing this properly. What I understand so far is that the ethanol must be distilled to 95% purity and then dehydrated by pouring it through clean pure lime (I presume the lime is hydrated and can then be dehydrated by heating it). Also, getting the reaction to complete is a challenge -- does heating the mixture help? In the meantime, of course, I'll use the ethanol to fuel my vehicle, a 2002 Chevrolet Venture. To my knowledge, this vehicle is not E85 ready, and I intend to run it on pure ethanol, so I'll likely need a Flexfuel module. I welcome any feedback from members who have used one of these. And, of course, advice on building a fuel still is very welcome, too. I'm trying to decide what the best still design is -- there are lots, and being new at it I can't really assess their comparitive merits. Personal anecdotes and opinions would be most appreciated. All in all, I expect to be here for the long haul, and look forward to learning from the experienced and teaching the new! Cheers, -Stephen- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
Stephen Bosch wrote: I have also been exploring fully self-sufficient means of producing biodiesel; this would require making the biodiesel using anhydrous ethanol and potash (KOH). I realise it's not without its challenges, but I know that people have inquired and we know it is possible, so I'm looking at distilling ethanol for this purpose. It's illegal for individuals to distill ethanol in Canada. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I've looked into this and if I could have obtained a permit, I would have done so already. Ethanol would be a wonderful fuel for a little hot rod truck like mine! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
On Oct 28, 2005, at 9:40 PM, robert luis rabello wrote: It's illegal for individuals to distill ethanol in Canada. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I've looked into this and if I could have obtained a permit, I would have done so already. Ethanol would be a wonderful fuel for a little hot rod truck like mine! Are Canadians typically a very law-abiding people? Just curious. Many US citizens would not think twice about skipping the permit, if they had some reason to believe they wouldn't get caught. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
On 10/29/05, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many US citizens would not think twice about skipping the permit, if they had some reason to believe they wouldn't get caught. I have to say that here as of late, you are correct about that...unfortunately. Overall, it does us no benefit, though. Firstly, we promote ourselves to be THE example and if we mean it, we should - no reason to hide our greatness. Second, if getting the proper permits to be upstanding citizens of the Earth is that much trouble, we should stand up for the right things. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
well. Maybe not for BD, but for the gasoline cars we have around here in any case. And I plan on permitting myself properly with all the appropriate authorities; I'm on pretty good terms with local law enforcement here, I'd rather not jeopardize that. ;) -KurtOn 10/29/05, Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/29/05, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many US citizens would not think twice about skipping the permit, if they had some reason to believe they wouldn'tget caught. I have to say that here as of late, you are correct aboutthat...unfortunately.Overall, it does us no benefit, though.Firstly, we promote ourselves to be THE example and if we mean it, weshould - no reason to hide our greatness.Second, if getting the proper permits to be upstanding citizens of the Earth is that muchtrouble, we should stand up for the right things.Take care,Ken___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
robert luis rabello wrote: It's illegal for individuals to distill ethanol in Canada. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I've looked into this and if I could have obtained a permit, I would have done so already. Ethanol would be a wonderful fuel for a little hot rod truck like mine! I've been looking for evidence of such regulations for some time now and haven't found any. To the best of my knowledge that's a provincial jurisdiction -- in Alberta there's not a word about distillation on the Alberta Gaming and Liquor Commission website. For my part, this is too important to fold the deck because of a stupid rule. If it means a court challenge, so be it. Can you point me to the regulation? -Stephen- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
Hi, Robert: robert luis rabello wrote: It's illegal for individuals to distill ethanol in Canada. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I've looked into this and if I could have obtained a permit, I would have done so already. Ethanol would be a wonderful fuel for a little hot rod truck like mine! Distillation of ethanol is regulated (federally) by the Excise Act, 2001. Here are the relevant sections: Article 14 states: 14. (1) Subject to the regulations, on application, the Minister may issue to a person (a) a spirits licence, authorizing the person to produce or package spirits; (b) a wine licence, authorizing the person to produce or package wine; (c) a user's licence, authorizing the person to use bulk alcohol or non-duty-paid packaged alcohol; (d) a tobacco licence, authorizing the person to manufacture tobacco products; or (e) a tobacco dealer's licence, authorizing the person to carry on the activity of a tobacco dealer. Articles 17 and 18 elaborate: 17. Subject to the regulations, on application, the Minister may issue an alcohol registration to a person authorizing the person to store or transport bulk alcohol or specially denatured alcohol. SDA registration 18. (1) Subject to the regulations, on application, the Minister may issue a specially denatured alcohol registration to a person authorizing the person to possess and use specially denatured alcohol. Restrictions on grades of SDA (2) The Minister may impose restrictions on the use of particular grades of specially denatured alcohol. Article 61: Possession of a still 61. No person shall possess a still or other equipment suitable for the production of spirits with the intent of producing spirits unless the person (a) is a spirits licensee; or (b) has a pending application for a spirits licence. The excise regulations regulate ethanol fuels and specially denatured alcohols (usually used for fuel), but there's no prohibition. There's no mention of the operation of a still in the legislation itself; I imagine that's handled in the regulations (I'm going to get a copy of them). I would encourage you to look into applying for an excise permit. Others have done it. There's nothing illegal about it if you follow the rules. -Stephen- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
Ken Provost wrote: Are Canadians typically a very law-abiding people? Just curious. Many US citizens would not think twice about skipping the permit, if they had some reason to believe they wouldn't get caught. I'm not Canadian, but it seems to me that people are no more law abiding here than they are in the US. However, the penalties for illegal distillation up here include seizure of property--something that happens to the grow op people all the time. I wouldn't want to risk losing my house for the sake of a little fuel. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
Stephen Bosch wrote: I've been looking for evidence of such regulations for some time now and haven't found any. Here's how it works. The Excise Act outlines very stiff penalties for distillation of spirits without a license and registration for the still. The license and registration forms come from the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, they are intended for registered businesses, and you'll find that they do not even contemplate provision for individuals to own a distillation apparatus. Now, if you had a secure premises and could post the ridiculous bond (which is something like $10 000), set up a business to distill ethanol and pay the appropriate taxes, you could probably distill ethanol in Canada. This approach, however, moves beyond the garage tinkering efforts of someone who wants to make a few dozen liters of fuel for personal use. To the best of my knowledge that's a provincial jurisdiction -- in Alberta there's not a word about distillation on the Alberta Gaming and Liquor Commission website. That's because there's no provision for individuals to do so. For my part, this is too important to fold the deck because of a stupid rule. If it means a court challenge, so be it. If you've got the money, have fun! I'm a guest in this country. I don't want to make a stink. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Also starting out
Stephen Bosch wrote: Hi, Robert: Distillation of ethanol is regulated (federally) by the Excise Act, 2001. Yes! That's the one. Article 61: Possession of a still 61. No person shall possess a still or other equipment suitable for the production of spirits with the intent of producing spirits unless the person (a) is a spirits licensee; or (b) has a pending application for a spirits licence. I have both forms. I've contacted the local customs and revenue agency on several occasions, trying to clarify that I'm an individual looking to obtain the required permits. I've spoken to people who were too busy to talk to me. I've left several messages, and nobody returns my phone calls. The excise regulations regulate ethanol fuels and specially denatured alcohols (usually used for fuel), but there's no prohibition. There's no mention of the operation of a still in the legislation itself; I imagine that's handled in the regulations (I'm going to get a copy of them). That would be a good thing. I would encourage you to look into applying for an excise permit. Others have done it. There's nothing illegal about it if you follow the rules. I HAVE looked into this. Would you like me to send you the forms? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
