Re: [Biofuel] Better titration Question
Ken Provost wrote: On Jan 2, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Logan Vilas wrote: In the better Titration Method I find it's easier to mix my stock solution with 20grams in 500milliters distilled water. OK -- we now have 4% NaOH soln. That gives .4% w/v lye solution when 5ml is added to 45ml distilled water. Yes, if you add 5ml of your 4% soln. to 45ml of water, you get a 0.4% solution. This is still 4 times the concentration that everyone else uses. By doing this I do not have to divide the titration results. I don't understand what you mean by this. When using a 0.1% soln., the number of milliliters of soln. needed to neutralize 1ml of oil is equal to the number of grams NaOH which must be added to the usual 3.5g per liter of oil. With your 4X solution, you will achieve neutrality at only 1/4 as many milliliters of solution, and thus will need to multiply by four to calculate the proper excess of NaOH. I haven't had any problems yet, but I was wondering if anyone would know of a reason I shouldn't do it? As long as you make the proper multiplication by four, your solution will work fine. Or if there is anyone using this method? I can't see why anyone would. -K Then you seem to have a short memory Ken. Didn't we discuss doing exactly this back in April? http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg45657.html There is a very good reason to use a 0.4% (w/v) titration solution with 4mL of WVO - namely accuracy. By using 4mL of WVO in some volume of isopropanol with 0.4% (w/v) base, you still get a direct relationship between number of mL of base required in the titration and number of grams of lye required per liter for the reaction *AND* you get a more accurate measurement, *without* needing to do any calculations on the bench. Anyway, Logan, to answer your question, yes, some of us (ok, maybe just me) are in fact using a 0.4% (w/v) NaOH titration solution. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Better titration Question
It seems to me that using a more concentrated titrant would increase error not reduce it. Better would be to use more of a less concentrated titrant with a higher volume of the solution to be titrated (other things being equal) John Hayes wrote: Ken Provost wrote: On Jan 2, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Logan Vilas wrote: In the better Titration Method I find it's easier to mix my stock solution with 20grams in 500milliters distilled water. OK -- we now have 4% NaOH soln. That gives .4% w/v lye solution when 5ml is added to 45ml distilled water. Yes, if you add 5ml of your 4% soln. to 45ml of water, you get a 0.4% solution. This is still 4 times the concentration that everyone else uses. By doing this I do not have to divide the titration results. I don't understand what you mean by this. When using a 0.1% soln., the number of milliliters of soln. needed to neutralize 1ml of oil is equal to the number of grams NaOH which must be added to the usual 3.5g per liter of oil. With your 4X solution, you will achieve neutrality at only 1/4 as many milliliters of solution, and thus will need to multiply by four to calculate the proper excess of NaOH. I haven't had any problems yet, but I was wondering if anyone would know of a reason I shouldn't do it? As long as you make the proper multiplication by four, your solution will work fine. Or if there is anyone using this method? I can't see why anyone would. -K Then you seem to have a short memory Ken. Didn't we discuss doing exactly this back in April? http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg45657.html There is a very good reason to use a 0.4% (w/v) titration solution with 4mL of WVO - namely accuracy. By using 4mL of WVO in some volume of isopropanol with 0.4% (w/v) base, you still get a direct relationship between number of mL of base required in the titration and number of grams of lye required per liter for the reaction *AND* you get a more accurate measurement, *without* needing to do any calculations on the bench. Anyway, Logan, to answer your question, yes, some of us (ok, maybe just me) are in fact using a 0.4% (w/v) NaOH titration solution. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Better titration Question
On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:20 PM, Logan Vilas wrote: When using the better titration method I'm using 4ml oil and 40ml Isopropyl. Ah,ha! Well, I guess I should have read what the better titration method involved! Not sure why it's better, but clearly it will work. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Better titration Question
In the better Titration Method I find it's easier to mix my stock solution with 20grams in 500milliters distilled water. That gives .4% w/v lye solution when 5ml is added to 45ml distilled water. By doing this I do not have to divide the titration results. I haven't had any problems yet, but I was wondering if anyone would know of a reason I shouldn't do it? Or if there is anyone using this method? Logan Vilas ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Better titration Question
On Jan 2, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Logan Vilas wrote: In the better Titration Method I find it's easier to mix my stock solution with 20grams in 500milliters distilled water. OK -- we now have 4% NaOH soln. That gives .4% w/v lye solution when 5ml is added to 45ml distilled water. Yes, if you add 5ml of your 4% soln. to 45ml of water, you get a 0.4% solution. This is still 4 times the concentration that everyone else uses. By doing this I do not have to divide the titration results. I don't understand what you mean by this. When using a 0.1% soln., the number of milliliters of soln. needed to neutralize 1ml of oil is equal to the number of grams NaOH which must be added to the usual 3.5g per liter of oil. With your 4X solution, you will achieve neutrality at only 1/4 as many milliliters of solution, and thus will need to multiply by four to calculate the proper excess of NaOH. I haven't had any problems yet, but I was wondering if anyone would know of a reason I shouldn't do it? As long as you make the proper multiplication by four, your solution will work fine. Or if there is anyone using this method? I can't see why anyone would. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Better titration Question
Ken When using the better titration method I'm using 4ml oil and 40ml Isopropyl. As per the method on JTF you do that then divide by 4. I am just multiplying the lye solution by 4 before doing the titration to remove the step of dividing in the end. I should have said the proportions of my titration ahead of time. Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Provost Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 9:10 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Better titration Question On Jan 2, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Logan Vilas wrote: In the better Titration Method I find it's easier to mix my stock solution with 20grams in 500milliters distilled water. OK -- we now have 4% NaOH soln. That gives .4% w/v lye solution when 5ml is added to 45ml distilled water. Yes, if you add 5ml of your 4% soln. to 45ml of water, you get a 0.4% solution. This is still 4 times the concentration that everyone else uses. By doing this I do not have to divide the titration results. I don't understand what you mean by this. When using a 0.1% soln., the number of milliliters of soln. needed to neutralize 1ml of oil is equal to the number of grams NaOH which must be added to the usual 3.5g per liter of oil. With your 4X solution, you will achieve neutrality at only 1/4 as many milliliters of solution, and thus will need to multiply by four to calculate the proper excess of NaOH. I haven't had any problems yet, but I was wondering if anyone would know of a reason I shouldn't do it? As long as you make the proper multiplication by four, your solution will work fine. Or if there is anyone using this method? I can't see why anyone would. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
