Re: [Biofuel] Chemical engineer's letter and bioeng
Hi Derick True, I totally agree that trying in correct direction with the interaction with multidicipline colaboration can lead to good sucess, not with limited persistant work sd Pannir On 8/21/05, DERICK GIORCHINO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my opinion. Since the dawn of time science and scientists have been considered quacks. The persistent have succeeded on one level or another. If you don't try you can't succeed. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 5:24 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chemical engineer's letter and bioeng How can I respond to the negative email below? ...with persistence. Good luck! Mike Pannirselvam P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HI Without the colaborative information exchange and dadta base information on biofuel both chemical and bioenginerring people are wasting the money in research not only in USA , but also in the developing country too as an academic curiosity to make patent and publish papers .Hence Mari the e mail has some fact for all the members to think about . Any research need sound chemical logic as well as economical objetive . Ethanol via biochemical route compared chemical syntysis seem to be very practical one . sd Pannirselvam On 8/20/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HELP! How can I respond to the negative email below? It's from a chemical engineer friend researching ethanol from cellulose. I sent him some info from this list to help his research, and was surprised by the anger. Anyone have specific things I can say in response? The email: Hi Marilyn Those guys are out in left field. From my perspective -- having followed and evaluated various biomass gasification processes (technology and economics) for 27 years -- is that the Bioengineering Resources guys are opportunistic promoters -- looking for suckers (e.g., U.S. DOE or some naive investors with money to waste). The technology is neither prove nor economical. And who needs more vinegar (dilute acetic acid). Fermentation of synthesis gas to acetic acid is nonsense. Producing synthesis gas from biomass is itself unproven at any significant scale (not even in a decent pilot plant) -- and if it could be achieved, would be very expensive relative to other options for producing synthesis gas. FYI -- Synthesis gas is a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, which can be reacted over various catalysts at elevated temperatures to produce many different products -- such as alcohols, hydrocarbons, and various oxygenated organic compounds. The synthesis gas first has to be purified (made extremely clean), and the H2/CO ratio also has to be adjusted for the specific application. After the synthesis, further processing is usually required. Most of these assorted biomass energy promoters (and I have seen many come and go over 27 years) don't understand chemical engineering, process economics, resource availability/supply/transportation economics, etc., etc. Yet every every 5-10 years a new generation of biomass advocates and promoters emerge (or are otherwise born into the light) who don't know their asses from first base -- but think that biomass will save the world -- and so promote all kinds of technically dumb and uneconomical ideas -- and make life miserable for the people who are doing reasonable work. They all stroke each other and keep each other going and feeling self-righteous. This whole business is too complicated and emotion-ridden for the biomass zealots (and apparently for me too) for me to begin discussing the many dimensions of it in an e-mail. I personally favor the idea of exploiting biomass (intelligently) as a renewable energy resource -- and think that we can be utilizing it. However, a lot has to change (mostly politically, socially, economically, educationally, etc.) for that to ever happen. The cause is not helped by promoters of dumb ideas. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitário CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : AvOdilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 CapimMacio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal21032171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557
Re: [Biofuel] Chemical engineer's letter and bioeng
HI Without the colaborative information exchange and dadta base information on biofuel both chemical and bioenginerring people are wasting the money in research not only in USA , but also in the developing country too as an academic curiosity to make patent and publish papers .Hence Mari the e mail has some fact for all the members to think about . Any research need sound chemical logic as well as economical objetive . Ethanol via biochemical route compared chemical syntysis seem to be very practical one . sd PannirselvamOn 8/20/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:HELP!How can I respond to the negative email below? It's from a chemical engineer friend researching ethanol from cellulose. Isent him some info from this list to help his research, and wassurprised by the anger. Anyone have specific things I can say inresponse?The email: Hi MarilynThose guys are out in left field. From my perspective -- havingfollowed and evaluated various biomass gasification processes(technology and economics) for 27 years -- is that theBioengineering Resources guys are opportunistic promoters -- looking for suckers (e.g., U.S. DOE or some naive investors withmoney to waste). The technology is neither prove noreconomical. And who needs more vinegar (dilute acetic acid).Fermentation of synthesis gas to acetic acid is nonsense. Producing synthesis gas from biomass is itself unproven at anysignificant scale (not even in a decent pilot plant) -- and if it couldbe achieved, would be very expensive relative to other options forproducing synthesis gas. FYI -- Synthesis gas is a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, which can be reacted overvarious catalysts at elevated temperatures to produce manydifferent products -- such as alcohols, hydrocarbons, andvarious oxygenated organic compounds. The synthesis gas first has to be purified (made extremely clean), and the H2/CO ratioalso has to be adjusted for the specific application. After thesynthesis, further processing is usually required. Most of these assorted biomass energy promoters (and I have seen many come and go over 27 years) don't understandchemical engineering, process economics, resourceavailability/supply/transportation economics, etc., etc. Yet everyevery 5-10 years a new generation of biomass advocates and promoters emerge (or are otherwise born into the light) whodon't know their asses from first base -- but think that biomasswill save the world -- and so promote all kinds of technicallydumb and uneconomical ideas -- and make life miserable for the people who are doing reasonable work. They all stroke eachother and keep each other going and feeling self-righteous.This whole business is too complicated and emotion-ridden forthe biomass zealots (and apparently for me too) for me to begin discussing the many dimensions of it in an e-mail.I personally favor the idea of exploiting biomass (intelligently) asa renewable energy resource -- and think that we can be utilizingit. However, a lot has to change (mostly politically, socially, economically, educationally, etc.) for that to ever happen. Thecause is not helped by promoters of dumb ideas.___Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/-- Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRNDepartamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQGrupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus UniversitárioCEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence :AvOdilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 CapimMacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal21032171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular8488145083 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] Chemical engineer's letter and bioeng
"How can I respond to the negative email below?" ...with persistence. Good luck! Mike "Pannirselvam P.V" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HI Without the colaborative information exchange and dadta base information on biofuel both chemical and bioenginerring people are wasting the money in research not only in USA , but also in the developing country too as an academic curiosity to make patent and publish papers .Hence Mari the e mail has some fact for all the members to think about .Any research need sound chemical logic as well as economical objetive .Ethanol via biochemical route compared chemical syntysis seem to be very practical one .sdPannirselvam On 8/20/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HELP!How can I respond to the negative email below? It's from achemical engineer friend researching ethanol from cellulose. Isent him some info from this list to help his research, and wassurprised by the anger. Anyone have specific things I can say inresponse?The email: Hi MarilynThose guys are out in left field. From my perspective -- havingfollowed and evaluated various biomass gasification processes(technology and economics) for 27 years -- is that theBioengineering Resources guys are opportunistic promoters -- looking for suckers (e.g., U.S. DOE or some naive investors withmoney to waste). The technology is neither prove noreconomical. And who needs more vinegar (dilute acetic acid).Fermentation of synthesis gas to acetic acid is nonsense. Producing synthesis gas from biomass is itself unproven at anysignificant scale (not even in a decent pilot plant) -- and if it couldbe achieved, would be very expensive relative to other options forproducing synthesis gas. FYI -- Synthesis gas is a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, which can be reacted overvarious catalysts at elevated temperatures to produce manydifferent products -- such as alcohols, hydrocarbons, andvarious oxygenated organic compounds. The synthesis gas first has to be purified (made extremely clean), and the H2/CO ratioalso has to be adjusted for the specific application. After thesynthesis, further processing is usually required. Most of these assorted biomass energy promoters (and I have seen many come and go over 27 years) don't understandchemical engineering, process economics, resourceavailability/supply/transportation economics, etc., etc. Yet everyevery 5-10 years a new "generation" of biomass advocates and promoters emerge (or are otherwise born into the light) whodon't know their asses from first base -- but think that biomasswill save the world -- and so promote all kinds of technicallydumb and uneconomical ideas -- and make life miserable for the people who are doing reasonable work. They all stroke eachother and keep each other going and feeling self-righteous.This whole business is too complicated and emotion-ridden forthe biomass zealots (and apparently for me too) for me to begin discussing the many dimensions of it in an e-mail.I personally favor the idea of exploiting biomass (intelligently) asa renewable energy resource -- and think that we can be utilizingit. However, a lot has to change (mostly politically, socially, economically, educationally, etc.) for that to ever happen. Thecause is not helped by promoters of dumb ideas.___Biofuel mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/-- Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRNDepartamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQGrupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus UniversitárioCEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence :AvOdilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 CapimMacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal21032171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular8488145083 ___Biofuel mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] Chemical engineer's letter and bioeng
Hi All, got a wood gasification plant running in Derry, Ireland, website www.ruralgeneration.com also working on gas turbine application runnning on biomass gasification ;^) go n'eiri an mbothair leat!!! dD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] Chemical engineer's letter and bioeng
In my opinion. Since the dawn of time science and scientists have been considered quacks. The persistent have succeeded on one level or another. If you dont try you cant succeed. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 5:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chemical engineer's letter and bioeng How can I respond to the negative email below? ...with persistence. Good luck! Mike Pannirselvam P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HI Without the colaborative information exchange and dadta base information on biofuel both chemical and bioenginerring people are wasting the money in research not only in USA , but also in the developing country too as an academic curiosity to make patent and publish papers .Hence Mari the e mail has some fact for all the members to think about . Any research need sound chemical logic as well as economical objetive . Ethanol via biochemical route compared chemical syntysis seem to be very practical one . sd Pannirselvam On 8/20/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HELP! How can I respond to the negative email below? It's from a chemical engineer friend researching ethanol from cellulose. I sent him some info from this list to help his research, and was surprised by the anger. Anyone have specific things I can say in response? The email: Hi Marilyn Those guys are out in left field. From my perspective -- having followed and evaluated various biomass gasification processes (technology and economics) for 27 years -- is that the Bioengineering Resources guys are opportunistic promoters -- looking for suckers (e.g., U.S. DOE or some naive investors with money to waste). The technology is neither prove nor economical. And who needs more vinegar (dilute acetic acid). Fermentation of synthesis gas to acetic acid is nonsense. Producing synthesis gas from biomass is itself unproven at any significant scale (not even in a decent pilot plant) -- and if it could be achieved, would be very expensive relative to other options for producing synthesis gas. FYI -- Synthesis gas is a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, which can be reacted over various catalysts at elevated temperatures to produce many different products -- such as alcohols, hydrocarbons, and various oxygenated organic compounds. The synthesis gas first has to be purified (made extremely clean), and the H2/CO ratio also has to be adjusted for the specific application. After the synthesis, further processing is usually required. Most of these assorted biomass energy promoters (and I have seen many come and go over 27 years) don't understand chemical engineering, process economics, resource availability/supply/transportation economics, etc., etc. Yet every every 5-10 years a new generation of biomass advocates and promoters emerge (or are otherwise born into the light) who don't know their asses from first base -- but think that biomass will save the world -- and so promote all kinds of technically dumb and uneconomical ideas -- and make life miserable for the people who are doing reasonable work. They all stroke each other and keep each other going and feeling self-righteous. This whole business is too complicated and emotion-ridden for the biomass zealots (and apparently for me too) for me to begin discussing the many dimensions of it in an e-mail. I personally favor the idea of exploiting biomass (intelligently) as a renewable energy resource -- and think that we can be utilizing it. However, a lot has to change (mostly politically, socially, economically, educationally, etc.) for that to ever happen. The cause is not helped by promoters of dumb ideas. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitário CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : AvOdilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 CapimMacio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal210 32171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular8488145083 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels
