Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hi Guys Check out this web site - this is something like what I'd like to set up in the Philippines - a coop of course. Best regards, Mon --- http://www.biofuels.coop/coop.shtml -- Piedmont Biofuels CO-OP Piedmont Biofuels is a worker and member owned cooperative. Our mission is to lead the grassroots sustainability movement in North Carolina by using and encouraging the use of clean, renewable biofuels. We are involved in a wide variety of undertakings in support of this mission: We provide pure biodiesel (B100) to the community. We provide a space where worker members can make their own fuel from waste vegetable oil. We have a USDA Research Farm where we do oilseed crop research. We have an elaborate glycerin composting facility. We do education and outreach on both biodiesel and engine modifications that enable people to use straight vegetable oil (SVO) as fuel. We lobby the North Carolina legislature, as well as our national representatives, on behalf of biodiesel and alternative fuels. We have an intern program that allows people to live on site and learn about all facets of our operations. Becoming a Member Becoming a member-owner of the coop entitles you to buy biodiesel from the coop or learn how to make your own using our equipment. Signing up is easy. Just read the membership agreement and drop off or mail us a signed copy along with your check for $50. We also accept credit card payments over the phone or via the web. Web Mail PO Box 661 Pittsboro, NC 27312 Phone (919) 321-8260 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hi Ken, that sounds exciting and of course we will be rooting for your success. Unfortunately yahoo supresses the full email addresses of posters, but I will cross-post your message to Gerardo. Also you might think of connecting with the coconut protocol group where he posts. I've also been studying the appropriate use of energy, and it's many possible applications there, including the use and conservation of water, solar, wind, co-generation, etc and it's heartening to hear your optimistic comments about the possible applications. Yes certainly making money with honor is a high ideal and admirable goal. My hat's off to you guys. Your aim to use coconut oil as a social development tool is something also that is close to my heart and hopefully we might be able to network together sometime. Incidentally there is another person there from Quezon who's expressed interest and you may be able to link up with him as well. Here's his posting: Best regards, Mon M From: Estacio Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun Oct 9, 2005 6:03 am Subject: RE: [CoconutProtocol] Re: Biodiesel News [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Email Send Email Mga Sirs, Is there anyone who have and/or can make a feasibility study of this cocodiesel production? Baka pwedeng umpisahan sa amin sa Quezon. I can offer a place for a small factory, and contacts of supplier within coconut infested area of Real, Infanta, Nakar and Polilio Island. I have a dream of having one processing plant for whatever we can produce out of coconut. Brgds, Geoffrey -- On 10/7/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Louie / Ramon, Well, I also do have something in the works. But it will be along the lines of commercial production. If you can direct me to that PCA manager in Zambo who wants to do something commercially, I may be able to help. However, I have a different concept than what the two biodiesel producers have. Like I mentioned, I still believe that localized production is the key to success. Also getting the support of the locals. I have a group that may be willing to look into the small producers and maybe even do some funding. Of course, the business model will have to profit based. With regards to the Mindoro situation, our direction is to use the oil production as a social development tool. Bring livelihood to people. Our thinking is not just biodiesel but alternate and appropriate use of energy technology. The group I have access to is not an NGO but a group of businessmen who believes energy is the future. They also believe that we ought to make money with honor. As far as the DOE and the DOST is concerned. Well...there are ways of going around. You just have to tango. Louie, why don't you drop me a line and discuss what you have in the works. Maybe we can put something together. --- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Mon, You got the same problem with a Phil. Coconut Authority manager here in Zamboanga City. He has been into coco-diesel for about 15 years now, and he cannot go into commercial production due to the DOE requirements. The tests are expensive. We were in a meeting with DOST-PCIERD requesting for funds, but they are hesitant since there is no RD involved. I have something in the works, but this is not about funding. Will let everyone know once everything is in place. Louie On 10/7/05, Ramon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we want to join the market to make the price cheaper but we have to hurdlethe doe requirement to pass the standard. we are short of funds to pay forthe analysis and we're still saving. we have sought the help of DOST to have our CME analysed. of course i'm not sure if our product will pass. if itdoes, rest assured we will bring the price down so more people can enjoyusing CME.-as you can see we have a few friends with whom we can exchange information and perhaps network together.My timetable is somethinglike 1-2yrs before I can get started -What kind of funding are you thinking about by the way?Best regards,Mon ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Louie, You know once you start thinking about commercial production you will find all sorts of hurdles and blocks put in your way by big business and BIG Oil stooges in government. The idea is to discourage anyone who tries to think independently and make him toe the line, or tax it to death so he will give up. My suggestion is, don't think about selling and profits initially... just make the biodiesel for your own use - or give it away to friends and relatives - I'm sure they'll be happy to buy you a case of beer in exchange. ;) Seriously, I'll be looking forward to hearing about what you have in the works Good luck! Mon On 10/6/05, RU 9 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mon, You got the same problem with a Phil. Coconut Authority manager here in Zamboanga City. He has been into coco-diesel for about 15 years now, and he cannot go into commercial production due to the DOE requirements. The tests are expensive. We were in a meeting with DOST-PCIERD requesting for funds, but they are hesitant since there is no RD involved. I have something in the works, but this is not about funding. Will let everyone know once everything is in place. Louie On 10/7/05, Ramon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we want to join the market to make the price cheaper but we have to hurdle the doe requirement to pass the standard. we are short of funds to pay for the analysis and we're still saving. we have sought the help of DOST to have our CME analysed. of course i'm not sure if our product will pass. if it does, rest assured we will bring the price down so more people can enjoy using CME. - as you can see we have a few friends with whom we can exchange information and perhaps network together. My timetable is something like 1-2yrs before I can get started - What kind of funding are you thinking about by the way? Best regards, Mon ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hi Louie / Ramon, Well, I also do have something in the works. But it will be along the lines of commercial production. If you can direct me to that PCA manager in Zambo who wants to do something commercially, I may be able to help. However, I have a different concept than what the two biodiesel producers have. Like I mentioned, I still believe that localized production is the key to success. Also getting the support of the locals. I have a group that may be willing to look into the small producers and maybe even do some funding. Of course, the business model will have to profit based. With regards to the Mindoro situation, our direction is to use the oil production as a social development tool. Bring livelihood to people. Our thinking is not just biodiesel but alternate and appropriate use of energy technology. The group I have access to is not an NGO but a group of businessmen who believes energy is the future. They also believe that we ought to make money with honor. As far as the DOE and the DOST is concerned. Well...there are ways of going around. You just have to tango. Louie, why don't you drop me a line and discuss what you have in the works. Maybe we can put something together. - Original Message - From: Ramon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Louie, You know once you start thinking about commercial production you will find all sorts of hurdles and blocks put in your way by big business and BIG Oil stooges in government. The idea is to discourage anyone who tries to think independently and make him toe the line, or tax it to death so he will give up. My suggestion is, don't think about selling and profits initially... just make the biodiesel for your own use - or give it away to friends and relatives - I'm sure they'll be happy to buy you a case of beer in exchange. ;) Seriously, I'll be looking forward to hearing about what you have in the works Good luck! Mon On 10/6/05, RU 9 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mon, You got the same problem with a Phil. Coconut Authority manager here in Zamboanga City. He has been into coco-diesel for about 15 years now, and he cannot go into commercial production due to the DOE requirements. The tests are expensive. We were in a meeting with DOST-PCIERD requesting for funds, but they are hesitant since there is no RD involved. I have something in the works, but this is not about funding. Will let everyone know once everything is in place. Louie On 10/7/05, Ramon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we want to join the market to make the price cheaper but we have to hurdle the doe requirement to pass the standard. we are short of funds to pay for the analysis and we're still saving. we have sought the help of DOST to have our CME analysed. of course i'm not sure if our product will pass. if it does, rest assured we will bring the price down so more people can enjoy using CME. - as you can see we have a few friends with whom we can exchange information and perhaps network together. My timetable is something like 1-2yrs before I can get started - What kind of funding are you thinking about by the way? Best regards, Mon ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hi Louie, good question, and glad to hear that you and I may be thinking along the same lines. I guess I will start with my own money initially, and try to get some friends to invest as well. Bear in mind that I don't plan to start a big operation - just a cottage industry sized plant. I'm not sure what Ken has in mind since he mentioned being involved in a power generation project in Mindoro in another thread, but it sounded large scale to me. Trouble with large scale is you run into who/how will fund type questions, plus you tend to draw the attention of politicians and feudal lords. If we can keep it small, develop the expertise, and get some people in the local community involved, then maybe it can work. Initially I think the focus should be on coconut oil production, have a small oil mill and coco-by-products operation, and make bio-diesel on the side. You know some people are already doing it - here's a post from the coconut-protocols group: From: Gerardo Alora Santos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:44 pm Subject: RE: [CoconutProtocol] Biodiesel News [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Email Dear friend, i don't know who you are and i myself was not aware how doe came up with the standard which only two companies are now selling. their products are not bad but quite expensive. we had been using Our biodiesel produced from rico cruz's technique since 1996 without any problem. we used a brand new L200 mitsubishi and a mazda B2500 and until now we had been touring around mindanao on blend 20 with gusto and sans any probleme. we want to join the market to make the price cheaper but we have to hurdle the doe requirement to pass the standard. we are short of funds to pay for the analysis and we're still saving. we have sought the help of DOST to have our CME analysed. of course i'm not sure if our product will pass. if it does, rest assured we will bring the price down so more people can enjoy using CME. - as you can see we have a few friends with whom we can exchange information and perhaps network together. My timetable is something like 1-2yrs before I can get started - What kind of funding are you thinking about by the way? Best regards, Mon On 10/5/05, RU 9 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/6/05, Ramon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it seems to me that if an organized group of well-intentioned people got together and decided to make biodiesel or ethanol for their own consumption My role would then be focused on (a) teaching them the technology -technology transfer - and (b) perhaps supplying them with the vegetable oil - as Chris pointed out, there are some places where coconut oil is not even being produced despite the abundance of coconuts, for example in Mindoro. Hi Mon, Where will you get the funding for this? This is good direction to take. I would be interested to help. Louie ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Mon, That's him, Gerardo Santos. The PCA manager I was talking about. Louie On 10/7/05, Ramon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Gerardo Alora Santos [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Thu Sep 29, 20055:44 pmSubject: RE: [CoconutProtocol] Biodiesel News[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Emailwe want to join the market to make the price cheaper but we have to hurdle the doe requirement to pass the standard. we are short of funds to pay forthe analysis and we're still saving. we have sought the help of DOST to haveour CME analysed. of course i'm not sure if our product will pass. if it does, rest assured we will bring the price down so more people can enjoyusing CME.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hello Mike and Chris, thanks for the input. Yes, Mike, that is the idea I am trying to conceptualize- similar to the US Coops, it seems to me that if an organized group of well-intentioned people got together and decided to make biodiesel or ethanol for their own consumption, then no one should prevent them from doing that. And I'm sure there will be many interested in doing just that, especially in the remote provincial areas and islands. My role would then be focused on (a) teaching them the technology -technology transfer - and (b) perhaps supplying them with the vegetable oil - as Chris pointed out, there are some places where coconut oil is not even being produced despite the abundance of coconuts, for example in Mindoro. Why the coop concept? Well, primarily because in the Philippines, as in most third world countries, once politicians and big businessmen, and in this case Big Oil, get involved in something it is almost assured to fail - or people eventually lose interest when they can see that only a few are getting rich(er) and the benefits do not trickle down to the grassroots level. The workaround is to fly under the radar - keep the operations small so that the impact is felt right in the community - and then do that over and over again in as many small barrios and islands you can. Try to build a good working relationship between the coops, have them talk often and exchange ideas. In other words, build the technolgy from the ground-up, instead of waiting, hoping and praying for redemption from heaven above, ie the government and big business padrinos. That way, regardless of what happens in Manila, how many presidents are impeached, how many coup d'etat attempts, those who need it most, the farmers and fishermen, will continue to have a good, reliable and non polluting source of fuel. You know what - just as I was writing this, it occured to me that perhaps a non-profit NGO or foundation might work just as well. Let me take a swat at translating what looks like the relevant part of Senbel's attempt to discourage competition from cooperatives: Kaya ba ng mga kooperatiba na gumawa ng biodiesel? *-Are cooperatives able to make biodiesel? -* Hindi pa po. Napakaimportante na malaman ang tungkol sa coconut methyl ester at biodiesel. Kahit na sinong tao na may basic knowledge sa paggawa ng methyl ester ay kayang gumawa ng coconut methyl ester. Subalit, kakaunting kumpanya ang may kakayahan na gumawa nito at makamit ang espesipekasyon ng B100 biodiesel. Kailangan din ng mga pasilidad para mas kontrolado ang mga produktong nangangailangan ng waste water control treatment at proseso. Kailangan ng ibang pasilidad para dito. *-Not yet sir. It is very important to know (or learn) about coconut methyl ester and biodiesel. Any person with basic knowledge in making methyl ester can make coconut methyl ester. However, very few companies have the capability to make this and achieve the specification of B100 biodiesel. It is necessary also to have the facility (capability) in order to better control the product that needs waster water control treatment and process. Other facilities are needed for this. -* Sounds pretty hokey to me. All this gobbledygook is saying (to me) is that: (a) one should understand the process - a good point. (b) anyone making biodiesel may or may not meet the B100 specifications, which are themselves either vague or non-existent anyway. and (c) one needs to be aware that there will be waste water which will require proper treatment before it can be discharged into the environment - (is this true?) a good point if true as we don't want to solve one problem while creating another, plus I'm sure a well conceived design would take into account the waste water and build in some way to put it back into the environment beneficially. Reading between the lines, it almost sounds like a veiled threat (ie, we'll report you to the authorities for polluting if you try to compete with us) Having said all that, I really don't see anything that says it's illegal for a group of farmers or fishermen to band together and make their own biodiesel - or for a non-profit organization. The trouble may arise if/when someone tries to SELL the product, because then the regulators and internal revenue people will involve themselves, not to mention the police chief, army commander, and maybe even the New People's Army taxation branch. In short, Chris, as you pointed out, we should first focus on coconut oil supply, even to the extent that we may have to set up our own extaction plants, and treat the making of biodiesel (and Ethanol) as a sideline or hobby, at least initially, so we don't attract too much attention from the dark side. What do you guys think? Those are just my thought. Always happy to hear from you guys. best regards, Mon On 9/30/05, Chris Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mon, The pamphlet doesn't say directly that coops are not allowed to make
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
On 10/6/05, Ramon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it seems to me that if an organized group ofwell-intentioned people got together and decided to make biodiesel orethanol for their own consumption Myrole would then be focused on (a) teaching them the technology -technology transfer - and (b) perhaps supplying them with thevegetable oil - as Chris pointed out, there are some places wherecoconut oil is not even being produced despite the abundance ofcoconuts, for example in Mindoro. Hi Mon, Where will you get the funding for this? This is good direction to take. I would be interested to help. Louie ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
In the US COOPS can make BD and provide it to their members. What they can't do is sell it to the public. If you get your intended market to join your coop you should be ok. Be aware there are tax implications at both the state and federal level. -Mike Ramon wrote: Hi Chris, Is this true that Coops are not allowed to make their own biodiesel? This sounds unreasonable. I guess this is just big oil, big biodiesel, and the politicians and bureaucrats way of making sure that their profits are secured. That's rather depressing news for me since my idea was to help coops learn the technology, hoping that if enough coops throughout the islands begin making their own fuel it would free many communities from the stranglehold that Big Oil and government. My dream is to have a small biodiesel making plant with the goal of transfering the technology to other similarly-inclined people. Sort of like these people: Perhaps what this restriction is saying is that groups of people (Coops) cannot make and SELL their biodiesel, using the excuse that their product would not be up to standard. But does this mean that, for instance, a group of jeepney drivers cannot make biodiesel for their own consumption? How can the government justify such a thing? Best regards, Mon PS - What I hope for is something similar to http://www.greaseworks.org/ http://www.greaseworks.org/mission We are a group of environmentally conscious biologists, students, working human beings, lawyers, farmers, professors and small business owners, who are committed to supporting renewable, domestically produced, vegetable-based alternative fuels. We adhere to the philosophy of leading by example, and thus use biodiesel and SVO in our personal vehicles. If change is to come, we, as individuals, must change. We have a vision of a world where the most important facet of any decision is the health of the Earth and the health of its inhabitants--both human and non-human alike. It is our belief that renewable energy and appropriate technology will, in the years to come, be the modus operandi of our western culture--not so much out of desire as necessity. The unifying thread of our Co-op is sustainability, and to those ends we stare boldly into the future and offer a viable alternative to petroleum. On 9/23/05, *Chris Tan* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Patrick, It's not that the government is not strict about standards. The government doesn't have a standard in the first place. The government with all its manpower (which we pay for with our taxes) cannot or would not make a standard of its own. Take biodiesel for example, I tried contacting DoE about our government's standard but have not receive any concrete answer. And yet Senbel other two big chemical companies are already marketing their expensive biodiesel additive. They are dictated by big business or by the highest bidder. A pamphlet posted on DoE's website says that biodiesel cannot be made by cooperatives or such. Guess who they got the pamphlet from? From who else but Senbel. Regards, Chris -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Anthony Opaco *Sent:* Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PM *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant is well mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good and second some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (prior to E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are at the hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill my new car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the time the gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared to the gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (a local venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot of people around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards here in the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strict standards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here in the Philippines doesn't go that way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said the standards here
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hi Mon, The pamphlet doesnt say directly that coops are not allowed to make biodiesel. Here are excerpts from the pamphlet. I trust you can read tagalog? Regards, Chris Anong konkretong hakbang ng pamahalaan upang mapalaganag ang paggamit nito? (Biodiesel) Dahil sa mga nakitang benepisyo ng coco-biodiesel, si Pres. Gloria Macapagal Arroyo ay nag-isyu ng Memorandum Circular No.55 noong Feb 9, 2004, na nag-uutos sa lahat ng ahensiya ng gobyerno, kabilang ang mga Government-Owned and Controlled Corporations (GOCCs), na gumamit ng 1% coco-biodiesel sa kanilang mga sasakyang diesel. Ano ang posisyon ng mga oil companies sa paghalo o blend ng biodiesel sa kanilang diesel fuel? Napagtanto ng mga oil companies na ang biodiesel ay isang environmentally friendly at alternatibong fuel. Ang blended biodiesel ay nakikitang may benepisyo habang ginagamit. Ang mga oil companies naman ay hindi tutol sa pagbalangkas ng gobyerno ng mandato upang gumamit ng biodiesel na halo sa diesel fuel para maipakilala ang biodiesel. Kaya ba ng mga kooperatiba na gumawa ng biodiesel? Hindi pa po. Napakaimportante na malaman ang tungkol sa coconut methyl ester at biodiesel. Kahit na sinong tao na may basic knowledge sa paggawa ng methyl ester ay kayang gumawa ng coconut methyl ester. Subalit, kakaunting kumpanya ang may kakayahan na gumawa nito at makamit ang espesipekasyon ng B100 biodiesel. Kailangan din ng mga pasilidad para mas kontrolado ang mga produktong nangangailangan ng waste water control treatment at proseso. Kailangan ng ibang pasilidad para dito. Gaano kaimportante ang pag-ayon sa espesipekasyon para sa Methyl Ester na nakapaloob sa Philippine National Standard? Ang mga oil companies ay gagamit lamang ng coconut methyl ester o biodiesel na nakapasa sa Philippine National Standard para sa B100. Ito ay isang requirement para sa lahat ng suppliers. Ang isang substandard coconut methyl ester ay magbibigay ng malaking hadlang kapag nagkaproblema. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hi Mon, The pamphlet doesnt say directly that coops are not allowed to make biodiesel. Here are excerpts from the pamphlet. I trust you can read tagalog? Regards, Chris Anong konkretong hakbang ng pamahalaan upang mapalaganag ang paggamit nito? (Biodiesel) Dahil sa mga nakitang benepisyo ng coco-biodiesel, si Pres. Gloria Macapagal Arroyo ay nag-isyu ng Memorandum Circular No.55 noong Feb 9, 2004, na nag-uutos sa lahat ng ahensiya ng gobyerno, kabilang ang mga Government-Owned and Controlled Corporations (GOCCs), na gumamit ng 1% coco-biodiesel sa kanilang mga sasakyang diesel. Ano ang posisyon ng mga oil companies sa paghalo o blend ng biodiesel sa kanilang diesel fuel? Napagtanto ng mga oil companies na ang biodiesel ay isang environmentally friendly at alternatibong fuel. Ang blended biodiesel ay nakikitang may benepisyo habang ginagamit. Ang mga oil companies naman ay hindi tutol sa pagbalangkas ng gobyerno ng mandato upang gumamit ng biodiesel na halo sa diesel fuel para maipakilala ang biodiesel. Kaya ba ng mga kooperatiba na gumawa ng biodiesel? Hindi pa po. Napakaimportante na malaman ang tungkol sa coconut methyl ester at biodiesel. Kahit na sinong tao na may basic knowledge sa paggawa ng methyl ester ay kayang gumawa ng coconut methyl ester. Subalit, kakaunting kumpanya ang may kakayahan na gumawa nito at makamit ang espesipekasyon ng B100 biodiesel. Kailangan din ng mga pasilidad para mas kontrolado ang mga produktong nangangailangan ng waste water control treatment at proseso. Kailangan ng ibang pasilidad para dito. Gaano kaimportante ang pag-ayon sa espesipekasyon para sa Methyl Ester na nakapaloob sa Philippine National Standard? Ang mga oil companies ay gagamit lamang ng coconut methyl ester o biodiesel na nakapasa sa Philippine National Standard para sa B100. Ito ay isang requirement para sa lahat ng suppliers. Ang isang substandard coconut methyl ester ay magbibigay ng malaking hadlang kapag nagkaproblema. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hi Chris, Is this true that Coops are not allowed to make their own biodiesel? This sounds unreasonable. I guess this is just big oil, big biodiesel, and the politicians and bureaucratsway of making sure that their profits are secured. That's rather depressing news for me since my idea was to help coops learn the technology, hoping that if enough coops throughout the islands begin making their own fuel it would free many communities from the stranglehold that Big Oil and government. My dream is to have a small biodiesel making plant with the goal of transfering the technology to other similarly-inclined people. Sort of like these people: Perhaps what this restrictionis sayingis that groups of people (Coops) cannot make and SELL their biodiesel, using the excuse that their product would not be up to standard. But does this mean that, for instance, a group of jeepney drivers cannot make biodiesel for their own consumption? How can the government justify such a thing? Best regards, Mon PS - What I hope for is something similar to http://www.greaseworks.org/ http://www.greaseworks.org/mission We are a group of environmentally conscious biologists, students, working human beings, lawyers, farmers, professors and small business owners, who are committed to supporting renewable, domestically produced, vegetable-based alternative fuels. We adhere to the philosophy of leading by example, and thus use biodiesel and SVO in our personal vehicles. If change is to come, we, as individuals, must change. We have a vision of a world where the most important facet of any decision is the health of the Earth and the health of its inhabitants--both human and non-human alike. It is our belief that renewable energy and appropriate technology will, in the years to come, be the modus operandi of our western culture--not so much out of desire as necessity. The unifying thread of our Co-op is sustainability, and to those ends we stare boldly into the future and offer a viable alternative to petroleum. On 9/23/05, Chris Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Patrick, It's not that the government is not strict about standards. The government doesn't have a standard in the first place. The government with all its manpower (which we pay for with our taxes) cannot or would not make a standard of its own. Take biodiesel for example, I tried contacting DoE about our government's standard but have not receive any concrete answer. And yet Senbel other two big chemical companies are already marketing their expensive biodiesel additive. They are dictated by big business or by the highest bidder. A pamphlet posted on DoE's website says that biodiesel cannot be made by cooperatives or such. Guess who they got the pamphlet from? From who else but Senbel. Regards, Chris -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Patrick Anthony OpacoSent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant is well mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good and second some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (prior to E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are at the hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill my new car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the time the gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared to the gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (a local venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot of people around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards here in the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strict standards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here in the Philippines doesn't gothat way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said the standards here are not that super strict compared to for example the US. To Ramon - E10 is 10% Ethanol blend and 90% unleaded gasoline. I don't do the mixing, I buy it from one of the minor oil players here. The major players (Shell, Caltex and Petron) don't carry yet Ethanol in their products. By the way guys, how about the computer that is controlling the fuel system orwhatever you callthat... fuel intake of your car? That won't be messed up right if filling up E10? So to sum it all, E10 is just your ordinary unleaded fuel provided that strict measures/standards are enforced in manufacturing the said fuel? Regards, Patrick___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Tell that to our gov as they are clueless or worse. Regards -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:34 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Interesting... I live about 25 miles from NREL, and honestly, they are not very interested in promoting, testing, making standards for, etc, for biodiesel. Their biofuels division is much more interested in pie in the sky research on hydrogen fuels (due to political directives).There is more activity in biodiesel standards and quality control from our local citizens co-op, and on this list, than I have seen from NREL. Very odd that the Phillipene DOE would entrust testing to them when they do so little here On 9/24/05, Chris Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been reading up on this for past 3 years or so and its like this. There have been local studies on biodiesel for years. The government only took notice when they saw they could boost coconut industry (and their pockets). So they immediately tied up with the big chemical companies senbel, chemrez and ir chem'ls. But the resulting product is too expensive. So the gov tried to talk the big 3 oil companies into buying the product as additive but couldn't twist their arms because they say that the product has not been proven yet. So instead, gov and big 3 oil companies (and big car manufacturers) agreed to test the product and formulate a standard locally. Now shell has reason to be angry at gov for not following the agreed test protocols (what ever that may be) by submitting the product to US DoE's NREL.(see article below.) And so senbel, chemrez and ir chem'ls market their expensive product without a clear standard. Talk about talking to the wrong people. Big 3 chem'l company say product is good to make sales. Big 3 oil company say product is bad because if it were good they will have to market less of their fuel therefore less sales. Regards I-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ike aguilar Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 9:35 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila hi to all i'm just wondering how the gov. approved to use the the biofuels without setting up with a standard, i,m really confused about this. Here's an article from Manila Bulletin DoE defies test protocols on CME By MYRNA M. VELASCO While they are chastised for not being receptive of the introduction of coco methyl ester (CME) as a blend to diesel products, the country's giant oil companies have turned the table on the Department of Energy (DoE), noting that the latter defied test protocols earlier agreed upon to test the viability of the product. We have aired our concern that before we can accept CME as additive to our diesel, the product should undergo all series of tests, and all related infrastructure should also be addressed, one of the big oil companies stressed. The oil firms have also aired their concern about storage facility for the fuel since their depots in Pandacan have already been significantly scaled down. Another infrastructure-related problem they have reportedly brought up with the government is if the CME manufacturer would be willing to put up a pipeline so that the product could be dispatched directly at their depots. None of these has been addressed by DoE, they whined, noting that instead of talking to them, the latter preferred to take refuge by submitting the product for testing by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), an attached agency of the US Department of Energy. The oil firms have clarified that they do not have any objection about third party testing for the CME; but they emphasized that the test protocols they have proposed are the same process that the government sought with NREL. It would be recalled that the Philippine energy department engaged the help of its American counterpart agency in its bid to promote CME as alternative fuel for public transport in the country. It has been taken as part of the US government's commitment to help the Philippines in exploring and promoting alternative fuels that will not just generate cash savings; but will also cut down greenhouse gas emissions. In an interview with US-DoE officials in March, they have revealed that the Philippine CME testing may take an extension of three to four months, to better assess the stability of properties of the fuel and to ensure that it would not tear down or cause some corrosion in the engines when already used massively in vehicles. Due to some questions on its technical suitability to existing vehicle engines and other concerns such as on storage, the energy department claimed that it was prompted to seek an independent testing of the fuel; aside from the one that has
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
what i,m wondering is why the gov. is so such stubborn to implement this fuel, which it help our economy better and improved our inviroment and most of all it will help our many kababayan, this our problem with the gov. anything that is for the people they are very hisitant to implement .Chris Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ive been reading up on this for past 3 years or so and its like this. There have been local studies on biodiesel for years. The government only took notice when they saw they could boost coconut industry (and their pockets). So they immediately tied up with the big chemical companies senbel, chemrez and ir chemls. But the resulting product is too expensive. So the gov tried to talk the big 3 oil companies into buying the product as additive but couldnt twist their arms because they say that the product has not been proven yet. So instead, gov and big 3 oil companies (and big car manufacturers) agreed to test the product and formulate a standard locally. Now shell has reason to be angry at gov for not following the agreed test protocols (what ever that may be) by submitting the product to US DoEs NREL.(see article below.) And so senbel, chemrez and ir chemls market their expensive product without a clear standard. Talk about talking to the wrong people. Big 3 cheml company say product is good to make sales. Big 3 oil company say product is bad because if it were good they will have to market less of their fuel therefore less sales. Regards I-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of ike aguilarSent: Friday, September 23, 2005 9:35 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila hi to alli'm just wondering how the gov. approved to use the the biofuels without setting up with a standard, i,m really confused about this. Heres an article from Manila Bulletin DoE defies test protocols on CME By MYRNA M. VELASCO While they are chastised for not being receptive of the introduction of coco methyl ester (CME) as a blend to diesel products, the countrys giant oil companies have turned the table on the Department of Energy (DoE), noting that the latter defied test protocols earlier agreed upon to test the viability of the product. "We have aired our concern that before we can accept CME as additive to our diesel, the product should undergo all series of tests, and all related infrastructure should also be addressed," one of the big oil companies stressed. The oil firms have also aired their concern about storage facility for the fuel since their depots in Pandacan have already been significantly scaled down. Another infrastructure-related problem they have reportedly brought up with the government is if the CME manufacturer would be willing to put up a pipeline so that the product could be dispatched directly at their depots. "None of these has been addressed by DoE," they whined, noting that instead of talking to them, the latter preferred to take refuge by submitting the product for testing by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), an attached agency of the US Department of Energy. The oil firms have clarified that they do not have any objection about third party testing for the CME; but they emphasized that the test protocols they have proposed are the same process that the government sought with NREL. It would be recalled that the Philippine energy department engaged the help of its American counterpart agency in its bid to promote CME as alternative fuel for public transport in the country. It has been taken as part of the US governments commitment to help the Philippines in exploring and promoting alternative fuels that will not just generate cash savings; but will also cut down greenhouse gas emissions. In an interview with US-DoE officials in March, they have revealed that the Philippine CME testing may take an extension of three to four months, to better assess the stability of properties of the fuel and to ensure that it would not tear down or cause some corrosion in the engines when already used massively in vehicles. Due to some questions on its technical suitability to existing vehicle engines and other concerns such as on storage, the energy department claimed that it was prompted to seek an independent testing of the fuel; aside from the one that has already been undertaken by the Philippine Council for Industry Energy Research Development (PCIERD) of the Department of Science and Technology. CME is a substance derived from coconut oil. Based on technical tests, it was found viable to be used as a diesel additive or blend. DoE noted that further studies have shown that the use of CME as an additive or enhancer to diesel results in better combustion, less emission and more engine power to the vehicle. The guidelines for the promotion of CME as alternative fuel laid down by the DoE; as has been prescribed by Memorandum Circular 55 issued by Malacana
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
www.doe.gov.ph/neecp/Coco-biodiesel.pdf I would have to follow up on the translation. Regards -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Weaver Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:47 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Do you have a link to the phamplet? Chris Tan wrote: Hi Patrick, It's not that the government is not strict about standards. The government doesn't have a standard in the first place. The government with all its manpower (which we pay for with our taxes) cannot or would not make a standard of its own. Take biodiesel for example, I tried contacting DoE about our government's standard but have not receive any concrete answer. And yet Senbel other two big chemical companies are already marketing their expensive biodiesel additive. They are dictated by big business or by the highest bidder. A pamphlet posted on DoE's website says that biodiesel cannot be made by cooperatives or such. Guess who they got the pamphlet from? From who else but Senbel. Regards, Chris -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Anthony Opaco *Sent:* Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PM *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant is well mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good and second some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (prior to E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are at the hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill my new car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the time the gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared to the gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (a local venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot of people around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards here in the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strict standards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here in the Philippines doesn't go that way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said the standards here are not that super strict compared to for example the US. To Ramon - E10 is 10% Ethanol blend and 90% unleaded gasoline. I don't do the mixing, I buy it from one of the minor oil players here. The major players (Shell, Caltex and Petron) don't carry yet Ethanol in their products. By the way guys, how about the computer that is controlling the fuel system or whatever you call that... fuel intake of your car? That won't be messed up right if filling up E10? So to sum it all, E10 is just your ordinary unleaded fuel provided that strict measures/standards are enforced in manufacturing the said fuel? Regards, Patrick --- - ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Title: RE: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Ive been reading up on this for past 3 years or so and its like this. There have been local studies on biodiesel for years. The government only took notice when they saw they could boost coconut industry (and their pockets). So they immediately tied up with the big chemical companies senbel, chemrez and ir chemls. But the resulting product is too expensive. So the gov tried to talk the big 3 oil companies into buying the product as additive but couldnt twist their arms because they say that the product has not been proven yet. So instead, gov and big 3 oil companies (and big car manufacturers) agreed to test the product and formulate a standard locally. Now shell has reason to be angry at gov for not following the agreed test protocols (what ever that may be) by submitting the product to US DoEs NREL.(see article below.) And so senbel, chemrez and ir chemls market their expensive product without a clear standard. Talk about talking to the wrong people. Big 3 cheml company say product is good to make sales. Big 3 oil company say product is bad because if it were good they will have to market less of their fuel therefore less sales. Regards I-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of ike aguilar Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 9:35 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila hi to all i'm just wondering how the gov. approved to use the the biofuels without setting up with a standard, i,m really confused about this. Heres an article from Manila Bulletin DoE defies test protocols on CME By MYRNA M. VELASCO While they are chastised for not being receptive of the introduction of coco methyl ester (CME) as a blend to diesel products, the countrys giant oil companies have turned the table on the Department of Energy (DoE), noting that the latter defied test protocols earlier agreed upon to test the viability of the product. We have aired our concern that before we can accept CME as additive to our diesel, the product should undergo all series of tests, and all related infrastructure should also be addressed, one of the big oil companies stressed. The oil firms have also aired their concern about storage facility for the fuel since their depots in Pandacan have already been significantly scaled down. Another infrastructure-related problem they have reportedly brought up with the government is if the CME manufacturer would be willing to put up a pipeline so that the product could be dispatched directly at their depots. None of these has been addressed by DoE, they whined, noting that instead of talking to them, the latter preferred to take refuge by submitting the product for testing by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), an attached agency of the US Department of Energy. The oil firms have clarified that they do not have any objection about third party testing for the CME; but they emphasized that the test protocols they have proposed are the same process that the government sought with NREL. It would be recalled that the Philippine energy department engaged the help of its American counterpart agency in its bid to promote CME as alternative fuel for public transport in the country. It has been taken as part of the US governments commitment to help the Philippines in exploring and promoting alternative fuels that will not just generate cash savings; but will also cut down greenhouse gas emissions. In an interview with US-DoE officials in March, they have revealed that the Philippine CME testing may take an extension of three to four months, to better assess the stability of properties of the fuel and to ensure that it would not tear down or cause some corrosion in the engines when already used massively in vehicles. Due to some questions on its technical suitability to existing vehicle engines and other concerns such as on storage, the energy department claimed that it was prompted to seek an independent testing of the fuel; aside from the one that has already been undertaken by the Philippine Council for Industry Energy Research Development (PCIERD) of the Department of Science and Technology. CME is a substance derived from coconut oil. Based on technical tests, it was found viable to be used as a diesel additive or blend. DoE noted that further studies have shown that the use of CME as an additive or enhancer to diesel results in better combustion, less emission and more engine power to the vehicle. The guidelines for the promotion of CME as alternative fuel laid down by the DoE; as has been prescribed by Memorandum Circular 55 issued by Malacanang last year. As set out in the National CME Diesel Program, government offices are initially required to use 1.0-percent CME-blend in their diesel needs. DoE, being the lead implementing agency, has been required to coordinate with various government agencies and private sector
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Interesting... I live about 25 miles from NREL, and honestly, they are not very interested in promoting, testing, making standards for, etc, for biodiesel. Their biofuels division is much more interested in pie in the sky research on hydrogen fuels (due to political directives).There is more activity in biodiesel standards and quality control from our local citizens co-op, and on this list, than I have seen from NREL. Very odd that the Phillipene DOE would entrust testing to them when they do so little here On 9/24/05, Chris Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been reading up on this for past 3 years or so and its like this. There have been local studies on biodiesel for years. The government only took notice when they saw they could boost coconut industry (and their pockets). So they immediately tied up with the big chemical companies senbel, chemrez and ir chem'ls. But the resulting product is too expensive. So the gov tried to talk the big 3 oil companies into buying the product as additive but couldn't twist their arms because they say that the product has not been proven yet. So instead, gov and big 3 oil companies (and big car manufacturers) agreed to test the product and formulate a standard locally. Now shell has reason to be angry at gov for not following the agreed test protocols (what ever that may be) by submitting the product to US DoE's NREL.(see article below.) And so senbel, chemrez and ir chem'ls market their expensive product without a clear standard. Talk about talking to the wrong people. Big 3 chem'l company say product is good to make sales. Big 3 oil company say product is bad because if it were good they will have to market less of their fuel therefore less sales. Regards I-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ike aguilar Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 9:35 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila hi to all i'm just wondering how the gov. approved to use the the biofuels without setting up with a standard, i,m really confused about this. Here's an article from Manila Bulletin DoE defies test protocols on CME By MYRNA M. VELASCO While they are chastised for not being receptive of the introduction of coco methyl ester (CME) as a blend to diesel products, the country's giant oil companies have turned the table on the Department of Energy (DoE), noting that the latter defied test protocols earlier agreed upon to test the viability of the product. We have aired our concern that before we can accept CME as additive to our diesel, the product should undergo all series of tests, and all related infrastructure should also be addressed, one of the big oil companies stressed. The oil firms have also aired their concern about storage facility for the fuel since their depots in Pandacan have already been significantly scaled down. Another infrastructure-related problem they have reportedly brought up with the government is if the CME manufacturer would be willing to put up a pipeline so that the product could be dispatched directly at their depots. None of these has been addressed by DoE, they whined, noting that instead of talking to them, the latter preferred to take refuge by submitting the product for testing by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), an attached agency of the US Department of Energy. The oil firms have clarified that they do not have any objection about third party testing for the CME; but they emphasized that the test protocols they have proposed are the same process that the government sought with NREL. It would be recalled that the Philippine energy department engaged the help of its American counterpart agency in its bid to promote CME as alternative fuel for public transport in the country. It has been taken as part of the US government's commitment to help the Philippines in exploring and promoting alternative fuels that will not just generate cash savings; but will also cut down greenhouse gas emissions. In an interview with US-DoE officials in March, they have revealed that the Philippine CME testing may take an extension of three to four months, to better assess the stability of properties of the fuel and to ensure that it would not tear down or cause some corrosion in the engines when already used massively in vehicles. Due to some questions on its technical suitability to existing vehicle engines and other concerns such as on storage, the energy department claimed that it was prompted to seek an independent testing of the fuel; aside from the one that has already been undertaken by the Philippine Council for Industry Energy Research Development (PCIERD) of the Department of Science and Technology. CME is a substance derived from coconut oil. Based on technical tests, it was found viable to be used as a diesel additive or blend. DoE noted
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hi Patrick, Its not that the government is not strict about standards. The government doesnt have a standard in the first place. The government with all its manpower (which we pay for with our taxes) cannot or would not make a standard of its own. Take biodiesel for example, I tried contacting DoE about our governments standard but have not receive any concrete answer. And yet Senbel other two big chemical companies are already marketing their expensive biodiesel additive. They are dictated by big business or by the highest bidder. A pamphlet posted on DoEs website says that biodiesel cannot be made by cooperatives or such. Guess who they got the pamphlet from? From who else but Senbel. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Anthony Opaco Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant is well mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good and second some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (prior to E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are at the hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill my new car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the time the gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared to the gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (a local venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot of people around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards here in the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strict standards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here in the Philippines doesn't gothat way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said the standards here are not that super strict compared to for example the US. To Ramon - E10 is 10% Ethanol blend and 90% unleaded gasoline. I don't do the mixing, I buy it from one of the minor oil players here. The major players (Shell, Caltex and Petron) don't carry yet Ethanol in their products. By the way guys, how about the computer that is controlling the fuel system orwhatever you callthat... fuel intake of your car? That won't be messed up right if filling up E10? So to sum it all, E10 is just your ordinary unleaded fuel provided that strict measures/standards are enforced in manufacturing the said fuel? Regards, Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Do you have a link to the phamplet? Chris Tan wrote: Hi Patrick, It’s not that the government is not strict about standards. The government doesn’t have a standard in the first place. The government with all its manpower (which we pay for with our taxes) cannot or would not make a standard of its own. Take biodiesel for example, I tried contacting DoE about our government’s standard but have not receive any concrete answer. And yet Senbel other two big chemical companies are already marketing their expensive biodiesel additive. They are dictated by big business or by the highest bidder. A pamphlet posted on DoE’s website says that biodiesel cannot be made by cooperatives or such. Guess who they got the pamphlet from? From who else but Senbel. Regards, Chris -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Anthony Opaco *Sent:* Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PM *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant is well mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good and second some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (prior to E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are at the hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill my new car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the time the gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared to the gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (a local venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot of people around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards here in the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strict standards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here in the Philippines doesn't go that way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said the standards here are not that super strict compared to for example the US. To Ramon - E10 is 10% Ethanol blend and 90% unleaded gasoline. I don't do the mixing, I buy it from one of the minor oil players here. The major players (Shell, Caltex and Petron) don't carry yet Ethanol in their products. By the way guys, how about the computer that is controlling the fuel system or whatever you call that... fuel intake of your car? That won't be messed up right if filling up E10? So to sum it all, E10 is just your ordinary unleaded fuel provided that strict measures/standards are enforced in manufacturing the said fuel? Regards, Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Chris and Patrick, I agree onyour standards issue, the government can't make a standard. One time I searched and searched for the government's definition of "standard". I couldn't find it and they said try ISO. I found that "ISO" doesn't mean "standards" it is a word in itself. To me a standard is "a definite level of quality suitable for a specific defined purpose." I certainly didn't find anything like that. Maybe they finally filled in the blank somewheres. I took issue with the definition of "food" as well and wrote up something on that, but I don't think mine went over that well, it allowed vitamins and minerals in the definition. Leon - Original Message - From: Chris Tan To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: 9/23/05 11:09:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi Patrick, Its not that the government is not strict about standards. The government doesnt have a standard in the first place. The government with all its manpower (which we pay for with our taxes) cannot or would not make a standard of its own. Take biodiesel for example, I tried contacting DoE about our governments standard but have not receive any concrete answer. And yet Senbel other two big chemical companies are already marketing their expensive biodiesel additive. They are dictated by big business or by the highest bidder. A pamphlet posted on DoEs website says that biodiesel cannot be made by cooperatives or such. Guess who they got the pamphlet from? From who else but Senbel. Regards, Chris -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Anthony OpacoSent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant is well mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good and second some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (prior to E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are at the hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill my new car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the time the gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared to the gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (a local venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot of people around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards here in the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strict standards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here in the Philippines doesn't gothat way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said the standards here are not that super strict compared to for example the US. To Ramon - E10 is 10% Ethanol blend and 90% unleaded gasoline. I don't do the mixing, I buy it from one of the minor oil players here. The major players (Shell, Caltex and Petron) don't carry yet Ethanol in their products. By the way guys, how about the computer that is controlling the fuel system orwhatever you callthat... fuel intake of your car? That won't be messed up right if filling up E10? So to sum it all, E10 is just your ordinary unleaded fuel provided that strict measures/standards are enforced in manufacturing the said fuel? Regards, Patrick___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Huh? What do you think the S in ISO stands for? http://www.iso.org/iso/en/ISOOnline.frontpage Leon Hulett wrote: Chris and Patrick, I agree on your standards issue, the government can't make a standard. One time I searched and searched for the government's definition of standard. I couldn't find it and they said try ISO. I found that ISO doesn't mean standards it is a word in itself. To me a standard is a definite level of quality suitable for a specific defined purpose. I certainly didn't find anything like that. Maybe they finally filled in the blank somewheres. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
I don't know how much I would trust the DOE for certain things anyway... I trust that their historical data on energy is accurate, but the predictions, not so much. Have you looked at what they project the price of a barrel of oil to be in 15 years? Somewhere around $25. I suspect there is a certain amount of don't rock the boat mentality there.We've seen this mentality in the EPA, CIA, FBI, and other places, so why should we expect the DOE to be any different? I've worked for DOE, and to publish anything with it's name on it, you have to go through 20 levels of review -- the top ones which are often political appointees, and have an interest in not alarming the public, even if their scientists and researchers say there is a good chance that they should be scared. Zeke On 9/23/05, Leon Hulett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris and Patrick, I agree on your standards issue, the government can't make a standard. One time I searched and searched for the government's definition of standard. I couldn't find it and they said try ISO. I found that ISO doesn't mean standards it is a word in itself. To me a standard is a definite level of quality suitable for a specific defined purpose. I certainly didn't find anything like that. Maybe they finally filled in the blank somewheres. I took issue with the definition of food as well and wrote up something on that, but I don't think mine went over that well, it allowed vitamins and minerals in the definition. Leon - Original Message - From: Chris Tan To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: 9/23/05 11:09:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi Patrick, It's not that the government is not strict about standards. The government doesn't have a standard in the first place. The government with all its manpower (which we pay for with our taxes) cannot or would not make a standard of its own. Take biodiesel for example, I tried contacting DoE about our government's standard but have not receive any concrete answer. And yet Senbel other two big chemical companies are already marketing their expensive biodiesel additive. They are dictated by big business or by the highest bidder. A pamphlet posted on DoE's website says that biodiesel cannot be made by cooperatives or such. Guess who they got the pamphlet from? From who else but Senbel. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Anthony Opaco Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant is well mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good and second some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (prior to E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are at the hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill my new car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the time the gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared to the gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (a local venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot of people around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards here in the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strict standards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here in the Philippines doesn't go that way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said the standards here are not that super strict compared to for example the US. To Ramon - E10 is 10% Ethanol blend and 90% unleaded gasoline. I don't do the mixing, I buy it from one of the minor oil players here. The major players (Shell, Caltex and Petron) don't carry yet Ethanol in their products. By the way guys, how about the computer that is controlling the fuel system or whatever you call that... fuel intake of your car? That won't be messed up right if filling up E10? So to sum it all, E10 is just your ordinary unleaded fuel provided that strict measures/standards are enforced in manufacturing the said fuel? Regards, Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Sorry guys but I'm referring to the Philippine DoE. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:10 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila I don't know how much I would trust the DOE for certain things anyway... I trust that their historical data on energy is accurate, but the predictions, not so much. Have you looked at what they project the price of a barrel of oil to be in 15 years? Somewhere around $25. I suspect there is a certain amount of don't rock the boat mentality there.We've seen this mentality in the EPA, CIA, FBI, and other places, so why should we expect the DOE to be any different? I've worked for DOE, and to publish anything with it's name on it, you have to go through 20 levels of review -- the top ones which are often political appointees, and have an interest in not alarming the public, even if their scientists and researchers say there is a good chance that they should be scared. Zeke On 9/23/05, Leon Hulett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris and Patrick, I agree on your standards issue, the government can't make a standard. One time I searched and searched for the government's definition of standard. I couldn't find it and they said try ISO. I found that ISO doesn't mean standards it is a word in itself. To me a standard is a definite level of quality suitable for a specific defined purpose. I certainly didn't find anything like that. Maybe they finally filled in the blank somewheres. I took issue with the definition of food as well and wrote up something on that, but I don't think mine went over that well, it allowed vitamins and minerals in the definition. Leon - Original Message - From: Chris Tan To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: 9/23/05 11:09:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi Patrick, It's not that the government is not strict about standards. The government doesn't have a standard in the first place. The government with all its manpower (which we pay for with our taxes) cannot or would not make a standard of its own. Take biodiesel for example, I tried contacting DoE about our government's standard but have not receive any concrete answer. And yet Senbel other two big chemical companies are already marketing their expensive biodiesel additive. They are dictated by big business or by the highest bidder. A pamphlet posted on DoE's website says that biodiesel cannot be made by cooperatives or such. Guess who they got the pamphlet from? From who else but Senbel. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Anthony Opaco Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant is well mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good and second some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (prior to E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are at the hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill my new car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the time the gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared to the gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (a local venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot of people around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards here in the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strict standards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here in the Philippines doesn't go that way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said the standards here are not that super strict compared to for example the US. To Ramon - E10 is 10% Ethanol blend and 90% unleaded gasoline. I don't do the mixing, I buy it from one of the minor oil players here. The major players (Shell, Caltex and Petron) don't carry yet Ethanol in their products. By the way guys, how about the computer that is controlling the fuel system or whatever you call that... fuel intake of your car? That won't be messed up right if filling up E10? So to sum it all, E10 is just your ordinary unleaded fuel provided that strict measures/standards are enforced in manufacturing the said fuel? Regards, Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Ooops. On 9/24/05, Chris Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry guys but I'm referring to the Philippine DoE. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:10 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila I don't know how much I would trust the DOE for certain things anyway... I trust that their historical data on energy is accurate, but the predictions, not so much. Have you looked at what they project the price of a barrel of oil to be in 15 years? Somewhere around $25. I suspect there is a certain amount of don't rock the boat mentality there.We've seen this mentality in the EPA, CIA, FBI, and other places, so why should we expect the DOE to be any different? I've worked for DOE, and to publish anything with it's name on it, you have to go through 20 levels of review -- the top ones which are often political appointees, and have an interest in not alarming the public, even if their scientists and researchers say there is a good chance that they should be scared. Zeke On 9/23/05, Leon Hulett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris and Patrick, I agree on your standards issue, the government can't make a standard. One time I searched and searched for the government's definition of standard. I couldn't find it and they said try ISO. I found that ISO doesn't mean standards it is a word in itself. To me a standard is a definite level of quality suitable for a specific defined purpose. I certainly didn't find anything like that. Maybe they finally filled in the blank somewheres. I took issue with the definition of food as well and wrote up something on that, but I don't think mine went over that well, it allowed vitamins and minerals in the definition. Leon - Original Message - From: Chris Tan To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: 9/23/05 11:09:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi Patrick, It's not that the government is not strict about standards. The government doesn't have a standard in the first place. The government with all its manpower (which we pay for with our taxes) cannot or would not make a standard of its own. Take biodiesel for example, I tried contacting DoE about our government's standard but have not receive any concrete answer. And yet Senbel other two big chemical companies are already marketing their expensive biodiesel additive. They are dictated by big business or by the highest bidder. A pamphlet posted on DoE's website says that biodiesel cannot be made by cooperatives or such. Guess who they got the pamphlet from? From who else but Senbel. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Anthony Opaco Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant is well mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good and second some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (prior to E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are at the hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill my new car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the time the gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared to the gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (a local venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot of people around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards here in the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strict standards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here in the Philippines doesn't go that way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said the standards here are not that super strict compared to for example the US. To Ramon - E10 is 10% Ethanol blend and 90% unleaded gasoline. I don't do the mixing, I buy it from one of the minor oil players here. The major players (Shell, Caltex and Petron) don't carry yet Ethanol in their products. By the way guys, how about the computer that is controlling the fuel system or whatever you call that... fuel intake of your car? That won't be messed up right if filling up E10? So to sum it all, E10 is just your ordinary unleaded fuel provided that strict measures/standards are enforced in manufacturing the said fuel? Regards
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Dear John, [I've always wanted to write that.] I think it means just what ISO says it means: http://www.iso.org/iso/en/aboutiso/introduction/index.html#three What ISO's name means Because International Organization for Standardization would have different abbreviations in different languages (IOS in English, OIN in French for Organisation internationale de normalisation), it was decided at the outset to use a word derived from the Greek isos, meaning equal. Therefore, whatever the country, whatever the language, the short form of the organization's name is always ISO. The s is ISO is just the letter s from the Greek word for equal. Or nowadays, the middle letter of the copyright name ISO. It is not, I repeat NOT an abbreviation. It looks like they have dressed things up a lot since I checked five years ago. I quess I will have to go looking for their definition of standard again to see if it exists now. Maybe this is just trivia at this point. Thanks for your question though. Leon [Original Message] From: John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: 9/23/05 1:01:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Huh? What do you think the S in ISO stands for? http://www.iso.org/iso/en/ISOOnline.frontpage Leon Hulett wrote: Chris and Patrick, I agree on your standards issue, the government can't make a standard. One time I searched and searched for the government's definition of standard. I couldn't find it and they said try ISO. I found that ISO doesn't mean standards it is a word in itself. To me a standard is a definite level of quality suitable for a specific defined purpose. I certainly didn't find anything like that. Maybe they finally filled in the blank somewheres. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
hi to alli'm just wondering how the gov. approved to use the the biofuels without setting up with a standard, i,m really confused about this.Chris Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry guys but I'm referring to the Philippine DoE.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke YewdallSent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:10 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in ManilaI don't know how much I would trust the DOE for certain thingsanyway... I trust that their historical data on energy is accurate,but the predictions, not so much. Have you looked at what theyproject the price of a barrel of oil to be in 15 years? Somewherearound $25. I suspect there is a certain amount of "don't rock theboat" mentality there. We've seen this mentality in the EPA, CIA,FBI, and other places, so why should we expect the DOE to be anydifferent? I've worked for DOE, and to publish anything with it'sname on it, you have to go through 20 levels of review -- the top oneswhich are often political appointees, and have an interest in notalarming the public, even if their scientists and researchers saythere is a good chance that they should be scared.ZekeOn 9/23/05, Leon Hulett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Chris and Patrick, I agree on your standards issue, the government can't make a standard.One time I searched and searched for the government's definition of"standard". I couldn't find it and they said try ISO. I found that "ISO" doesn'tmean "standards" it is a word in itself. To me a standard is "a definitelevel of quality suitable for a specific defined purpose." I certainly didn'tfind anything like that. Maybe they finally filled in the blank somewheres. I took issue with the definition of "food" as well and wrote upsomething on that, but I don't think mine went over that well, it allowed vitaminsand minerals in the definition. Leon - Original Message - From: Chris Tan To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: 9/23/05 11:09:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi Patrick, It's not that the government is not strict about standards. Thegovernment doesn't have a standard in the first place. The government with allits manpower (which we pay for with our taxes) cannot or would not make a standard of its own. Take biodiesel for example, I tried contactingDoE about our government's standard but have not receive any concreteanswer. And yet Senbel other two big chemical companies are already marketingtheir expensive biodiesel additive. They are dictated by big business or bythe highest bidder. A pamphlet posted on DoE's website says that biodiesel cannot be made by cooperatives or such. Guess who they got thepamphlet from? From who else but Senbel. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Anthony Opaco Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant iswell mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good andsecond some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (priorto E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are atthe hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill mynew car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the timethe gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared tothe gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (alocal venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot ofpeople around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards herein the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strictstandards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here inthe Philippines doesn't go that way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said thestandards here are not that super strict compared to for example the US. To Ramon - E10 is 10% Ethanol blend and 90% unleaded gasoline. I don'tdo the mixing, I buy it from one of the minor oil players here. The major players (Shell, Caltex and Petron) don't carry yet Ethanol in their products. By the way guys, how about the computer that is controlling the fuelsystem or whatever you call that... fuel intake of your car? That won't bemessed up right if filling up E10? So to sum it all, E10 is just your ordinary unleaded fuel providedthat strict measures/standards are enforced in manufacturing the said fuel? Regards, Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinf
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hi All, Thanks for the replies... The reason why I'm a little bit hesitant is well mainly because the info drive here in Manila is not that good and second some unscrupulous business men before are selling unleaded gas (prior to E10) that has water in it. That's a real bummer but now they are at the hands of the law. Probably I'll continue using E10 at my old car and will just fill my new car if the masses here would start patronizing E10, coz most of the time the gas station that I bought E10 doesn't have that much customers compared to the gas stations of Shell, Caltex (Chevron Texaco in the US) and Petron (a local venture that has a saudi partner). It's good to know that a lot of people around the world are using E10/E85, it's just that the standards here in the Philippines are not that strict. Like for example when you manufacture Ethanol, you guys there in the commercial level applies strict standards to ensure that the product you're selling is really good right? Here in the Philippines doesn't gothat way. The issue I think here is more of the consumers confidence towards Ethanol because as I've said the standards here are not that super strict compared to for example the US. To Ramon - E10 is 10% Ethanol blend and 90% unleaded gasoline. I don't do the mixing, I buy it from one of the minor oil players here. The major players (Shell, Caltex and Petron) don't carry yet Ethanol in their products. By the way guys, how about the computer that is controlling the fuel system orwhatever you callthat... fuel intake of your car? That won't be messed up right if filling up E10? So to sum it all, E10 is just your ordinary unleaded fuel provided that strict measures/standards are enforced in manufacturing the said fuel? Regards, Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Finally, I've already tried using E10. I'm a little bit hesitant using iton my5 month old carso I tried it first in my old 1990 Nissan California (carbuerator type) car. So far so good, is all I can say right now. One thing that I noticed (that is different from the conventional unleaded fuel) is that E10 starts my car instantly. Even if it's a cold start, it starts my engine instantly, unlike my other car which uses the traditional unleaded fuel. My question guys is, will E10 mess up a fuel injected car and that has a catalytic converter? My new car is very efficient in burning fuel. It can go 12-14kms in heavy traffic, if I put E10 will it mess up my fuel economy or will I achieve better fuel economy? Thanks, Patrick-- This is my email for mailing list purposes only. If you want to send a personal message to me please send it to anton.opaco AT gmail.coma href="" http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliatesamp;id=20532amp;t=1Get Firefox!/a ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Patrick Anthony Opaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Finally, I've already tried using E10. I'm a little bit hesitant using it on my 5 month old car so I tried it first in my old 1990 Nissan California (carbuerator type) car. So far so good, is all I can say right now. One thing that I noticed (that is different from the conventional unleaded fuel) is that E10 starts my car instantly. Even if it's a cold start, it starts my engine instantly, unlike my other car which uses the traditional unleaded fuel. My question guys is, will E10 mess up a fuel injected car and that has a catalytic converter? My new car is very efficient in burning fuel. It can go 12-14kms in heavy traffic, if I put E10 will it mess up my fuel economy or will I achieve better fuel economy? I have used E10 for several years in a number of vehicles in Canada. I don't know if anything is different for vehicles or fuel in Manila, but I suspect not. I have used it in vehicles with carburetors and fuel injectors. So, this is based on my experience, but I cannot guarantee yours will be the same. No detrimental effects on the catalytic converters. We have used E10 with several vehicles with catalytic converters. The ethanol works as both a fuel system cleaner and a gas-line antifreeze. I suspect frozen gas lines are not a problem in Manila, but they are here. With E10 I have never clogged a fuel filter, though I have heard apocryphal tales of this happening in older cars that switched from regular unleaded to E10. Didn't happen on my Dodge van with at least 10 years on regular before E10, or a Chrysler New Yorker with five years on regular before E10. The E10 should keep your injectors cleaner. The ethanol has fractionally less energy in it per unit volume than regular gasoline, but typically a higher octane rating. Nominally, your mileage should fall marginally when you switch to E10. However, given your fuel is only 10% ethanol, and the energy per litre drop is small, you are unlikely to notice the difference. I have done before and after fuel economy records on two vehicles we switched from regular to E10 and found no difference in overall fuel economy between the two. Finally, check your owner's manual. Most now state that ethanol blends up to E10 are perfectly acceptable in place of regular unleaded for virtually every car and light truck built (at least in North America) for the past five to ten years. If it is not in the manual, check with the manufacturer (website). Of course, YMMV (your mileage may vary). (Sorry, couldn't resist.) -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Here in Colorado, at least half the gas stations carry only E10 instead of regular gas in the wintertime. Because of the high altitude, and our smog problems, they put it in to try to oxygenate the gas and encourage cleaner combustion. I know people who avoid the stations with E10 and only buy 100% gasoline, but I haven't noticed any difference in my car (1989 fuel injected) On 9/21/05, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Patrick Anthony Opaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Finally, I've already tried using E10. I'm a little bit hesitant using it on my 5 month old car so I tried it first in my old 1990 Nissan California (carbuerator type) car. So far so good, is all I can say right now. One thing that I noticed (that is different from the conventional unleaded fuel) is that E10 starts my car instantly. Even if it's a cold start, it starts my engine instantly, unlike my other car which uses the traditional unleaded fuel. My question guys is, will E10 mess up a fuel injected car and that has a catalytic converter? My new car is very efficient in burning fuel. It can go 12-14kms in heavy traffic, if I put E10 will it mess up my fuel economy or will I achieve better fuel economy? I have used E10 for several years in a number of vehicles in Canada. I don't know if anything is different for vehicles or fuel in Manila, but I suspect not. I have used it in vehicles with carburetors and fuel injectors. So, this is based on my experience, but I cannot guarantee yours will be the same. No detrimental effects on the catalytic converters. We have used E10 with several vehicles with catalytic converters. The ethanol works as both a fuel system cleaner and a gas-line antifreeze. I suspect frozen gas lines are not a problem in Manila, but they are here. With E10 I have never clogged a fuel filter, though I have heard apocryphal tales of this happening in older cars that switched from regular unleaded to E10. Didn't happen on my Dodge van with at least 10 years on regular before E10, or a Chrysler New Yorker with five years on regular before E10. The E10 should keep your injectors cleaner. The ethanol has fractionally less energy in it per unit volume than regular gasoline, but typically a higher octane rating. Nominally, your mileage should fall marginally when you switch to E10. However, given your fuel is only 10% ethanol, and the energy per litre drop is small, you are unlikely to notice the difference. I have done before and after fuel economy records on two vehicles we switched from regular to E10 and found no difference in overall fuel economy between the two. Finally, check your owner's manual. Most now state that ethanol blends up to E10 are perfectly acceptable in place of regular unleaded for virtually every car and light truck built (at least in North America) for the past five to ten years. If it is not in the manual, check with the manufacturer (website). Of course, YMMV (your mileage may vary). (Sorry, couldn't resist.) -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] E10 experience here in Manila
Hello Patrick, Pardon my ignorance - what is E10? Is this a 10% Ethanol blend? also is such a blend commercially available in Manila? or are you mixing your own? Regards, Mon On 9/21/05, Patrick Anthony Opaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Finally, I've already tried using E10. I'm a little bit hesitant using iton my5 month old carso I tried it first in my old 1990 Nissan California (carbuerator type) car. So far so good, is all I can say right now. One thing that I noticed (that is different from the conventional unleaded fuel) is that E10 starts my car instantly. Even if it's a cold start, it starts my engine instantly, unlike my other car which uses the traditional unleaded fuel. My question guys is, will E10 mess up a fuel injected car and that has a catalytic converter? My new car is very efficient in burning fuel. It can go 12-14kms in heavy traffic, if I put E10 will it mess up my fuel economy or will I achieve better fuel economy? Thanks, Patrick-- This is my email for mailing list purposes only. If you want to send a personal message to me please send it to anton.opaco AT gmail.coma href="" http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliatesamp;id=20532amp;t=1 Get Firefox!/a ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
