Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
Hi Keith, I believe that the lady with the hot coffee injury had her settlement shrunk down. She never tried to get millions from McDonald's, that was pure media hype. I think she settled for a lot less, but no one knows for sure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's_coffee_case The Orion, Illinois incident is a case where emotions can get heated quickly. Since the establishment is using immunity as their defense, it sure does make them look guilty to me. Yeah, this could be a case where someone in the chain of communication dropped the ball, it probably is. But not fessing up to it and claiming immunity from prosecution leaves a lot of people worried and upset. Somehow it adds more uncertainty and distrust to their lives. WRT all lawsuits, there is a movement here to put caps on the amount of all cases where the establishment is shown to be at fault. And in some cases where the accused is the police or government, there is a cap of zero dollars, thanks to the immunity clause. So, people see this and are not happy. The establishment blames the high number of frivolous lawsuits where people try to claim injuries from those with deep pockets, by implying that all lawsuits are intiated by people trying to rip off big companies. I believe this has been shown to be false but the idea is out there, and sounds reasonable. But like the infamous death tax where ordinary folks voted to have it abolished and then find later that the tax was only applied to those estates with assets of more than 3,000,000 dollars, people are easily led to voting for legislation that hurts them and benefits the establishment. So, ideas that sound reasonable are not always so and can later bite you on the bum. It is all in how you package your desired outcome. Make it look as good as possible. Politicians and lawyers are using PR ideas more and more, to our detriment. The plain and simple truth is so old-fashioned. Not many people want to be blinded by the light anymore. They'd rather wear their blinders. Big Biz is loathe to pay out in lawsuits and have teams of lawyers who will use every trick in the book to avoid paying even one cent. They will drag out cases for years and years hoping that the plaintiff either gives up due to lack of funds or patience, or dies. My mom was a plaintiff in a car accident case that dragged on for years. She eventually started losing her health and just gave up. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless D,. Sorry for the top-post, but I am not sure how to interleave this effectively. About six hours before your post Keith also responded: Do you think people just aren't seeing it straight, that it's the same kind of problem as the famous hot coffee case that cost McDonald's millions? Best Keith I have spent a full day's amount of time considering and reconsidering my reaction to this occurrence. I do not see it as a McSue at all. It is not frivolous. The situation, without first-hand knowledge, boils down to two reasonable scenarios: 1. The passerby saw the car in the ditch, did not consider that it was a recent accident, did not get out and investigate on foot, but reported what was seen at a distance to the local authorities. 2. The passerby knew that there was an injured person in the wreck, called it in accurately, and left. Number 2 requires both the passerby and the authorities to be selfishly callous. I, personally, do not believe that everyday people in this chain have this in their hearts. Number 1 fits the story and its conclusion. The passerby did not communicate any urgency to the authorities, just that there was a car in the ditch. I was mainly upset that folks can assume that their personal responsibilities can be transferred to a third party. More so upset that if the third party does not meet their expectations that the liability falls there, not with the originator. I truly believe that nobody involved in leaving Doris Hayes's body in the ditch for three days did so with complete knowledge of the circumstances. If they had known they would have acted more reasonably. All of our government employees are just the same people as we all are. They have no agenda to be willfully incompetent for the sole purpose of oppressing us. Us is them, too. Michael -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Mindock Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 4:03 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless Michael, What if the person making the call was an elderly, frail person who faints at the sight of blood? Maybe the caller was on an emergency trip and had no time to stop. I think you're a bit too quick to defend
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
Hi D. Thanks for the ref. I know. I saw it coming. You missed my reply. http://snipurl.com/pkm6 [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless The missing bit is how much McDonald's saves by serving coffee that keeps burning people. It'll be there somewhere - at the time McDonald's made $1.35 million in coffee sales daily, which makes any aspect of unit costs non-trivial. During trial, McDonald's admitted that it had known about the risk of serious burns from its coffee for more than 10 years. From 1982 to 1992, McDonald's received at least 700 reports of burns from scalding coffee; some of the injured were children and infants. Many customers received severe burns to the genital area, perineum, inner thighs and buttocks. In addition, many of these claims were settled for up to $500,000. Witnesses for McDonald's testified that consumers were not aware of the extent of danger from coffee spills served at the company's required temperature. McDonald's admitted it did not warn customers and could offer no explanation as to why it did not. -- Public Citizen Testimony by witnesses for revealed that McDonald's did not intend to reduce the heat of its coffee. - Wikipedia Let's put it another way: Documents obtained by Mother Jones revealed that Ford executives knew very well they could save the lives of the 28 people who ultimately burned to death in Ford Pintos-if they just spent about $10 per vehicle to protect the poorly designed fuel tank, so vulnerable that it was easily punctured in rear-end collisions of just 30 miles per hour. The most shocking evidence was a Ford internal document with a cost/benefit analysis in which the company weighed the cost of a human life (appraised at a tidy $200,000) against the cost of repairing the Pinto fuel tanks-and concluded that the cheaper option was to let Ford customers die. http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1977/09/dowie.html Pinto Madness $10. That was in 1977. It goes on: In June of 1980, Ford again came under fire from Mother Jones in an article detailing a transmission defect which caused idling Ford vehicles suddenly to slip from park into reverse. Ford had known about the defect for at least 10 years, had lost numerous injury lawsuits where juries found the transmission defective, and had even estimated it would cost just three cents per car to fix-yet the company never bothered to make the fix, for fear that acknowledging the flaw would invite more lawsuits. According to NHTSA's own investigation, at the time of the article the defect had caused some 3,700 accidents, injuring 1,100 people and killing 70-more than twice the number killed by fire in the Pinto. Three cents. For what sum did Carbide find it worth risking the life of a whole Indian city? Union Carbide stored liquid MIC in Bhopal in huge tanks, far in excess of what ever would have been permitted in the US. MIC is a dangerously volatile chemical and these tanks were supposed to be kept cooled to 0 deg C. It is known that for some months prior to the huge and fatal gas leak of December 1984, the refrigeration system had been switched off to save the cost of freon gas. For the last 18 years, survivors have wondered just how much the company must have been saving, to make it worth risking the lives of an entire Indian city. Now we know. The figure was $37.68 per day. http://snipurl.com/oxks [Biofuel] More about Bhopal $37.68 per day. Let's have a closer look - what's the difference between Bhopal, India, and West Virginia, USA? The senior officials of the corporation [Union Carbide], privy to a business confidential safety audit in May 1982, were well aware of 61 hazards, 30 of them major and 11 in the dangerous phosgene/MIC units. Remedial measures were then taken at Union Carbide's identical MIC plant in West Virginia but not in Bhopal. In Bhopal, prior to the disaster, environmental safety concerns by private citizens were responded to by legal threats from the company and repressive managerial measures were employed against workers who raised occupational health concerns. Or this: American child brain-damaged by Dow-Carbide pesticide (Dursban): $10,000,000 Indian child brain-damaged by Dow-Carbide pesticide: $500 Compensation for Bhopal victims: 7c a day. These cases are not exceptions, they're symptomatic, that's what corporations do if you let them, and there's abundant evidence for it. Close your eyes and chuck a dart: A study produced for [Philip Morris] by Arthur D. Little, one of the foremost management consulting firms, found the early deaths of smokers have positive effects for society that more than counteract the medical costs of treating smoking induced cancer, etc... It found that in 1999, despite health care costs for dying smokers, the [Czech] government still had a net gain of $147.1 million from smoking. From these figures, the American Legacy Foundation calculated the Czech government saved $1,227 per dead smoker
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
Hello Michael Once again I repeat myself, this time with the transcript attached to keep anyone who cares on track. Did the person who called in the accident rightly feel that rendering aid only consists of placing a phone call (perhaps one not totally clear as to the actual circumstances) and then driving off as a morally correct action? What in the phrase rendering aid was not understood? If you were in a wreck and someone with a cell phone in hand asked if they could help and you said sure. Then they said I'll call 911, but see-ya, good luck, would you feel good? Would you do this to someone in need and still feel good about yourself. Sure, the local community has a deeper pocket than the AH who drove off, so there is where to try and sue. Any successful lawyer will advise you of that. But blame the marginally paid 911 operators with (possibly) poor information? Get real on who is negligent. Do you think people just aren't seeing it straight, that it's the same kind of problem as the famous hot coffee case that cost McDonald's millions? Best Keith Michael ... and this really pisses me off. Hate the establishment, yet blame them when we (a supposed community) personally fail. Time to grow-up folks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Katie Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:14 PM To:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless File: death10a.gif File: haysd.jpggraphic=1 File: ATT00216.txt sorry, i never considered that someone would lock archives... kind of defeats the purpose. April 20, 2006; 12:15 p.m. High court rules against Hays family Comment on this article By Stephanie Sievers, Springfield bureau Photo: Terry Herbig This stretch of road along U.S. 150 is the area where the body of Doris Hayes, Orion, was discovered. She was found outside her car, which had run off the road and into a deep ravine on the east side of U.S. 150, about a mile and a half south of Coal Valley. More photos from this shoot Graphic: Submitted Doris Hays SPRINGFIELD - The Illinois Supreme Court has sided with local law enforcement, ruling today they were immune from liability even though they failed to come to the aid of Doris Hays, an Orion woman who died after a car accident. The 68-year-old woman died in 2002 after she wrecked her car on U.S. 150 near the Henry/Rock Island county line. A passerby called for help and the message was relayed to multiple law enforcement agencies, but no help ever arrived. Hays' body wasn't found until three days later. Her sister, Mary DeSmet, filed a wrongful-death lawsuit against a number of defendants, including Rock Island County and Sheriff Michael Grchan, Henry County and Sheriff Gilbert Cady, Orion, Moline and East Moline. The state's highest court agreed with lower courts that the lawsuit should be dismissed. The court found that although people have a right to expect police to respond to such a situation, authorities weren't liable under the Tort Immunity Act, which protects governmental entities and employees from lawsuits. There is an exception for willful and wanton behavior, but since law enforcement never responded or tried to enforce the law, that exception didn't apply in this case, wrote Justice Lloyd Karmeier, who penned the majority opinion. Ms. Hays' family appealed to the state's highest court after lower-level courts threw out the case on the grounds that governmental entities and employees were protected against the lawsuit by the Tort Immunity Act. Michael Rathsack, the appellate attorney for the family, said that, while lawmakers wanted to protect such groups from legal liability, the Hays case probably isn't what they had in mind. 'I don't think the legislature ever thought that somebody would call and they would say, 'We'll come,' and they don't come. That's the problem. We're trying to look at a statute that was never designed to address the situation,' he said. Law enforcement is granted fairly broad lawsuit protection even when it fails to provide adequate service. Mr. Rathsack was asking the Illinois Supreme Court to decide if that immunity should cover providing no service at all. Robert Noe, a Moline attorney representing Rock Island County, Sheriff Grchan and emergency services dispatcher Myrtle DeWitte, argued that no police response is the same as an inadequate response, which is protected. He also said that, by the time the call was relayed to Rock Island County, dispatchers were only told that a car was in a ditch. Posted online: April 20, 2006 9:30 PM Print publication date: April 21, 2006
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
Michael, What if the person making the call was an elderly, frail person who faints at the sight of blood? Maybe the caller was on an emergency trip and had no time to stop. I think you're a bit too quick to defend the establishment without knowing all the facts. The fact that immunity alone was used as a defense says a lot about the case. If there was a legitimate excuse, don't you think the establishment would have used it? They knew that the defense of immunity would raise the hackles of the community. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless Once again I repeat myself, this time with the transcript attached to keep anyone who cares on track. Did the person who called in the accident rightly feel that rendering aid only consists of placing a phone call (perhaps one not totally clear as to the actual circumstances) and then driving off as a morally correct action? What in the phrase rendering aid was not understood? If you were in a wreck and someone with a cell phone in hand asked if they could help and you said sure. Then they said I'll call 911, but see-ya, good luck, would you feel good? Would you do this to someone in need and still feel good about yourself. Sure, the local community has a deeper pocket than the AH who drove off, so there is where to try and sue. Any successful lawyer will advise you of that. But blame the marginally paid 911 operators with (possibly) poor information? Get real on who is negligent. Michael ... and this really pisses me off. Hate the establishment, yet blame them when we (a supposed community) personally fail. Time to grow-up folks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Katie Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:14 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless File: death10a.gif File: haysd.jpggraphic=1 File: ATT00216.txt sorry, i never considered that someone would lock archives... kind of defeats the purpose. April 20, 2006; 12:15 p.m. High court rules against Hays family Comment on this article By Stephanie Sievers, Springfield bureau Photo: Terry Herbig This stretch of road along U.S. 150 is the area where the body of Doris Hayes, Orion, was discovered. She was found outside her car, which had run off the road and into a deep ravine on the east side of U.S. 150, about a mile and a half south of Coal Valley. More photos from this shoot Graphic: Submitted Doris Hays SPRINGFIELD - The Illinois Supreme Court has sided with local law enforcement, ruling today they were immune from liability even though they failed to come to the aid of Doris Hays, an Orion woman who died after a car accident. The 68-year-old woman died in 2002 after she wrecked her car on U.S. 150 near the Henry/Rock Island county line. A passerby called for help and the message was relayed to multiple law enforcement agencies, but no help ever arrived. Hays' body wasn't found until three days later. Her sister, Mary DeSmet, filed a wrongful-death lawsuit against a number of defendants, including Rock Island County and Sheriff Michael Grchan, Henry County and Sheriff Gilbert Cady, Orion, Moline and East Moline. The state's highest court agreed with lower courts that the lawsuit should be dismissed. The court found that although people have a right to expect police to respond to such a situation, authorities weren't liable under the Tort Immunity Act, which protects governmental entities and employees from lawsuits. There is an exception for willful and wanton behavior, but since law enforcement never responded or tried to enforce the law, that exception didn't apply in this case, wrote Justice Lloyd Karmeier, who penned the majority opinion. Ms. Hays' family appealed to the state's highest court after lower-level courts threw out the case on the grounds that governmental entities and employees were protected against the lawsuit by the Tort Immunity Act. Michael Rathsack, the appellate attorney for the family, said that, while lawmakers wanted to protect such groups from legal liability, the Hays case probably isn't what they had in mind. 'I don't think the legislature ever thought that somebody would call and they would say, 'We'll come,' and they don't come. That's the problem. We're trying to look at a statute that was never designed to address the situation,' he said. Law enforcement is granted fairly broad lawsuit protection even when it fails
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
D,. Sorry for the top-post, but I am not sure how to interleave this effectively. About six hours before your post Keith also responded: Do you think people just aren't seeing it straight, that it's the same kind of problem as the famous hot coffee case that cost McDonald's millions? Best Keith I have spent a full day's amount of time considering and reconsidering my reaction to this occurrence. I do not see it as a McSue at all. It is not frivolous. The situation, without first-hand knowledge, boils down to two reasonable scenarios: 1. The passerby saw the car in the ditch, did not consider that it was a recent accident, did not get out and investigate on foot, but reported what was seen at a distance to the local authorities. 2. The passerby knew that there was an injured person in the wreck, called it in accurately, and left. Number 2 requires both the passerby and the authorities to be selfishly callous. I, personally, do not believe that everyday people in this chain have this in their hearts. Number 1 fits the story and its conclusion. The passerby did not communicate any urgency to the authorities, just that there was a car in the ditch. I was mainly upset that folks can assume that their personal responsibilities can be transferred to a third party. More so upset that if the third party does not meet their expectations that the liability falls there, not with the originator. I truly believe that nobody involved in leaving Doris Hayes's body in the ditch for three days did so with complete knowledge of the circumstances. If they had known they would have acted more reasonably. All of our government employees are just the same people as we all are. They have no agenda to be willfully incompetent for the sole purpose of oppressing us. Us is them, too. Michael -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Mindock Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 4:03 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject:Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless Michael, What if the person making the call was an elderly, frail person who faints at the sight of blood? Maybe the caller was on an emergency trip and had no time to stop. I think you're a bit too quick to defend the establishment without knowing all the facts. The fact that immunity alone was used as a defense says a lot about the case. If there was a legitimate excuse, don't you think the establishment would have used it? They knew that the defense of immunity would raise the hackles of the community. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless Once again I repeat myself, this time with the transcript attached to keep anyone who cares on track. Did the person who called in the accident rightly feel that rendering aid only consists of placing a phone call (perhaps one not totally clear as to the actual circumstances) and then driving off as a morally correct action? What in the phrase rendering aid was not understood? If you were in a wreck and someone with a cell phone in hand asked if they could help and you said sure. Then they said I'll call 911, but see-ya, good luck, would you feel good? Would you do this to someone in need and still feel good about yourself. Sure, the local community has a deeper pocket than the AH who drove off, so there is where to try and sue. Any successful lawyer will advise you of that. But blame the marginally paid 911 operators with (possibly) poor information? Get real on who is negligent. Michael ... and this really pisses me off. Hate the establishment, yet blame them when we (a supposed community) personally fail. Time to grow-up folks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Katie Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:14 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless File: death10a.gif File: haysd.jpggraphic=1 File: ATT00216.txt sorry, i never considered that someone would lock archives... kind of defeats the purpose. April 20, 2006; 12:15 p.m. High court rules against Hays family Comment on this article By Stephanie Sievers, Springfield bureau Photo: Terry Herbig This stretch of road along U.S. 150 is the area where the body of Doris Hayes, Orion, was discovered. She was found outside her car, which had run off the road and into a deep ravine on the east side of U.S. 150, about a mile and a half south of Coal Valley. More photos from this shoot Graphic: Submitted Doris Hays SPRINGFIELD - The Illinois Supreme Court has sided with local law enforcement
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
Hello Michael That may have been a bit mean, but I won't apologise. I set you up, and you sure fell for it. You spent a whole day considering all this, you're totally sure about this aspect of it, yet you're totally wrong. I do not see it as a McSue at all. It is not frivolous. So they even call it McSue these days. That's pretty sad. This isn't difficult to find: Legal Myths: The McDonald's Hot Coffee Case. That's right, just a myth, a manufactured one, with evil intent. In fact it's easily found right here, in the list archives, which you're supposed to check: http://snipurl.com/pk9j Re: [Biofuel] $millions for hot coffee Please read the whole thing, but this is the gist of it: ... both the media and those who want to take away consumers' legal rights conveniently overlooked the facts of the case, creating a legal myth or a poster-case for corporate entities with a vested interest in limiting the legal rights of consumers... Based on the facts, Corporate America's and much of the media's trivial portrayal of the case is deceptive and disgraceful. They have painted a misleading picture of a legal horror story when in fact, the case demonstrates a legal system that punishes corporations for misconduct and protects consumers who may be victims of their wrongdoing. Ooops. It's not much different from the Ford Pinto case, same sort of outlook on life. Tell me Michael, this is an American issue and you're an American. I'm not American, I've only spent a couple of days there. But I know about this, how come you don't? What else do you know that's wrong? This, for instance: All of our government employees are just the same people as we all are. They have no agenda to be willfully incompetent for the sole purpose of oppressing us. Us is them, too. A government or a corporation is not simply the sum of its all-too-human parts. They are not human at all, and their behaviour cannot be attributed to or explained in terms of the humans who work for them. Us it NOT them. Please read this: http://snipurl.com/pka2 Re: [Biofuel] New EPA Rules For starters. There's much more, eg.: http://snipurl.com/pka5 [biofuel] Mammoth corporations Who exactly are you defending, Michael? Or perhaps, what are you defending? Best wishes Keith D,. Sorry for the top-post, but I am not sure how to interleave this effectively. About six hours before your post Keith also responded: Do you think people just aren't seeing it straight, that it's the same kind of problem as the famous hot coffee case that cost McDonald's millions? Best Keith I have spent a full day's amount of time considering and reconsidering my reaction to this occurrence. I do not see it as a McSue at all. It is not frivolous. The situation, without first-hand knowledge, boils down to two reasonable scenarios: 1. The passerby saw the car in the ditch, did not consider that it was a recent accident, did not get out and investigate on foot, but reported what was seen at a distance to the local authorities. 2. The passerby knew that there was an injured person in the wreck, called it in accurately, and left. Number 2 requires both the passerby and the authorities to be selfishly callous. I, personally, do not believe that everyday people in this chain have this in their hearts. Number 1 fits the story and its conclusion. The passerby did not communicate any urgency to the authorities, just that there was a car in the ditch. I was mainly upset that folks can assume that their personal responsibilities can be transferred to a third party. More so upset that if the third party does not meet their expectations that the liability falls there, not with the originator. I truly believe that nobody involved in leaving Doris Hayes's body in the ditch for three days did so with complete knowledge of the circumstances. If they had known they would have acted more reasonably. All of our government employees are just the same people as we all are. They have no agenda to be willfully incompetent for the sole purpose of oppressing us. Us is them, too. Michael -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Mindock Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 4:03 PM To:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless Michael, What if the person making the call was an elderly, frail person who faints at the sight of blood? Maybe the caller was on an emergency trip and had no time to stop. I think you're a bit too quick to defend the establishment without knowing all the facts. The fact that immunity alone was used as a defense says a lot about the case. If there was a legitimate excuse, don't you think the establishment would have used it? They knew that the defense of immunity would raise the hackles of the community. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Katie Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:29 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject:[Biofuel] I always new they were worthless http://qconline.com/archives/qco/sections.cgi?prcss=displayid=284986 check this, if it doesnt give you the impression that the forces of law are bad i dont know what will. Shame on the passerby whose idea of rendering aid is to make one phone call and then leave the scene. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
Could you cut and paste the article? I do not like signing up on more websites than is necessary. Thanks! Randall Charlotte, NC ___ Heisenberg may have slept here If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my xe. --Abraham Lincoln ___ - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 12:29 AM Subject: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless http://qconline.com/archives/qco/sections.cgi?prcss=displayid=284986 check this, if it doesnt give you the impression that the forces of law are bad i dont know what will. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
of ending this way, but said the court's decision still was disappointing. It makes me a little perturbed that (law enforcement) can't be brought to some kind of justice for not doing their jobs, she said. But Mrs. DeSmet doesn't regret that for Hays' sake, she took the case as far as she could. Officials say Doris Hays survived the initial crash when her car went into a deep ditch on U.S. 150 on April 5, 2002, though it is unclear how long she lived. A call reporting the accident went unheeded. Her body was found April 8, lying next to her Chevrolet Cavalier in the ditch just north of the Rock Island/Henry County line. A pathologist report said that the time of death could not be determined, but Ms. Hays died of blunt-force injury to her head, chest and abdomen. Ms. Hays showed no sign of a stroke or heart attack, the report states. John Fleming, an attorney representing Orion village clerk Lori Sampson, said he wasn't surprised the court ruled in his clients' favor given the way it has ruled on tort immunity cases in the past. The chain of events following Doris Hays' accident was unusual because the passerby called the Orion village clerk and not 911, which would have required an emergency response, Mr. Fleming said. And by the time the message was relayed through multiple agencies, authorities at the end were only told that a vehicle was in a ditch, said Robert Noe, a Moline attorney representing Rock Island County, Sheriff Grchan and dispatcher Myrtle DeWitte. I don't think we were as culpable as the general public thinks, Mr. Noe said. But Ryan Yagoda, a Chicago attorney who represented Mrs. DeSmet at the trial level, said the ruling sets a dangerous precedent that could allow people to be hurt because help never arrives. Doing nothing even if it's completely outrageous, you're absolved of any liability, Mr. Yagoda said. - Original Message - From: Randall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless Could you cut and paste the article? I do not like signing up on more websites than is necessary. Thanks! Randall Charlotte, NC ___ Heisenberg may have slept here If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my xe. --Abraham Lincoln ___ - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 12:29 AM Subject: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless http://qconline.com/archives/qco/sections.cgi?prcss=displayid=284986 check this, if it doesnt give you the impression that the forces of law are bad i dont know what will. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.4/320 - Release Date: 4/20/2006 death10a.gif Description: GIF image haysd.jpggraphic=1 Description: Binary data ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
Once again I repeat myself, this time with the transcript attached to keep anyone who cares on track. Did the person who called in the accident rightly feel that rendering aid only consists of placing a phone call (perhaps one not totally clear as to the actual circumstances) and then driving off as a morally correct action? What in the phrase rendering aid was not understood? If you were in a wreck and someone with a cell phone in hand asked if they could help and you said sure. Then they said I'll call 911, but see-ya, good luck, would you feel good? Would you do this to someone in need and still feel good about yourself. Sure, the local community has a deeper pocket than the AH who drove off, so there is where to try and sue. Any successful lawyer will advise you of that. But blame the marginally paid 911 operators with (possibly) poor information? Get real on who is negligent. Michael ... and this really pisses me off. Hate the establishment, yet blame them when we (a supposed community) personally fail. Time to grow-up folks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Katie Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:14 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject:Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless File: death10a.gif File: haysd.jpggraphic=1 File: ATT00216.txt sorry, i never considered that someone would lock archives... kind of defeats the purpose. April 20, 2006; 12:15 p.m. High court rules against Hays family Comment on this article By Stephanie Sievers, Springfield bureau Photo: Terry Herbig This stretch of road along U.S. 150 is the area where the body of Doris Hayes, Orion, was discovered. She was found outside her car, which had run off the road and into a deep ravine on the east side of U.S. 150, about a mile and a half south of Coal Valley. More photos from this shoot Graphic: Submitted Doris Hays SPRINGFIELD - The Illinois Supreme Court has sided with local law enforcement, ruling today they were immune from liability even though they failed to come to the aid of Doris Hays, an Orion woman who died after a car accident. The 68-year-old woman died in 2002 after she wrecked her car on U.S. 150 near the Henry/Rock Island county line. A passerby called for help and the message was relayed to multiple law enforcement agencies, but no help ever arrived. Hays' body wasn't found until three days later. Her sister, Mary DeSmet, filed a wrongful-death lawsuit against a number of defendants, including Rock Island County and Sheriff Michael Grchan, Henry County and Sheriff Gilbert Cady, Orion, Moline and East Moline. The state's highest court agreed with lower courts that the lawsuit should be dismissed. The court found that although people have a right to expect police to respond to such a situation, authorities weren't liable under the Tort Immunity Act, which protects governmental entities and employees from lawsuits. There is an exception for willful and wanton behavior, but since law enforcement never responded or tried to enforce the law, that exception didn't apply in this case, wrote Justice Lloyd Karmeier, who penned the majority opinion. Ms. Hays' family appealed to the state's highest court after lower-level courts threw out the case on the grounds that governmental entities and employees were protected against the lawsuit by the Tort Immunity Act. Michael Rathsack, the appellate attorney for the family, said that, while lawmakers wanted to protect such groups from legal liability, the Hays case probably isn't what they had in mind. 'I don't think the legislature ever thought that somebody would call and they would say, 'We'll come,' and they don't come. That's the problem. We're trying to look at a statute that was never designed to address the situation,' he said. Law enforcement is granted fairly broad lawsuit protection even when it fails to provide adequate service. Mr. Rathsack was asking the Illinois Supreme Court to decide if that immunity should cover providing no service at all. Robert Noe, a Moline attorney representing Rock Island County, Sheriff Grchan and emergency services dispatcher Myrtle DeWitte, argued that no police response is the same as an inadequate response, which is protected. He also said that, by the time the call was relayed to Rock Island County, dispatchers were only told that a car was in a ditch. Posted online: April 20, 2006 9:30 PM Print publication date: April 21, 2006 Illinois Supreme Courts rules in favor of law enforecement in Hays' suit By Stephanie Sievers, [EMAIL PROTECTED] SPRINGFIELD -- The Illinois Supreme Court has
Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
ok i understand your point about the jackhole who drove off, but even so, the authorities were called, and didn't even deign to answer. it is still their sworn duty to serve and protect, and unless there was something inherently evil about coming to this person's aid, i say they shirked their protection directive by a fairly wide margin. and i know a couple rock island dispatch operators personally, and it is standard to page EVERYBODY in an uncertain situation, no exceptions. - Original Message - From: Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless Once again I repeat myself, this time with the transcript attached to keep anyone who cares on track. Did the person who called in the accident rightly feel that rendering aid only consists of placing a phone call (perhaps one not totally clear as to the actual circumstances) and then driving off as a morally correct action? What in the phrase rendering aid was not understood? If you were in a wreck and someone with a cell phone in hand asked if they could help and you said sure. Then they said I'll call 911, but see-ya, good luck, would you feel good? Would you do this to someone in need and still feel good about yourself. Sure, the local community has a deeper pocket than the AH who drove off, so there is where to try and sue. Any successful lawyer will advise you of that. But blame the marginally paid 911 operators with (possibly) poor information? Get real on who is negligent. Michael ... and this really pisses me off. Hate the establishment, yet blame them when we (a supposed community) personally fail. Time to grow-up folks! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Katie Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:14 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthless File: death10a.gif File: haysd.jpggraphic=1 File: ATT00216.txt sorry, i never considered that someone would lock archives... kind of defeats the purpose. April 20, 2006; 12:15 p.m. High court rules against Hays family Comment on this article By Stephanie Sievers, Springfield bureau Photo: Terry Herbig This stretch of road along U.S. 150 is the area where the body of Doris Hayes, Orion, was discovered. She was found outside her car, which had run off the road and into a deep ravine on the east side of U.S. 150, about a mile and a half south of Coal Valley. More photos from this shoot Graphic: Submitted Doris Hays SPRINGFIELD - The Illinois Supreme Court has sided with local law enforcement, ruling today they were immune from liability even though they failed to come to the aid of Doris Hays, an Orion woman who died after a car accident. The 68-year-old woman died in 2002 after she wrecked her car on U.S. 150 near the Henry/Rock Island county line. A passerby called for help and the message was relayed to multiple law enforcement agencies, but no help ever arrived. Hays' body wasn't found until three days later. Her sister, Mary DeSmet, filed a wrongful-death lawsuit against a number of defendants, including Rock Island County and Sheriff Michael Grchan, Henry County and Sheriff Gilbert Cady, Orion, Moline and East Moline. The state's highest court agreed with lower courts that the lawsuit should be dismissed. The court found that although people have a right to expect police to respond to such a situation, authorities weren't liable under the Tort Immunity Act, which protects governmental entities and employees from lawsuits. There is an exception for willful and wanton behavior, but since law enforcement never responded or tried to enforce the law, that exception didn't apply in this case, wrote Justice Lloyd Karmeier, who penned the majority opinion. Ms. Hays' family appealed to the state's highest court after lower-level courts threw out the case on the grounds that governmental entities and employees were protected against the lawsuit by the Tort Immunity Act. Michael Rathsack, the appellate attorney for the family, said that, while lawmakers wanted to protect such groups from legal liability, the Hays case probably isn't what they had in mind. 'I don't think the legislature ever thought that somebody would call and they would say, 'We'll come,' and they don't come. That's the problem. We're trying to look at a statute that was never designed to address the situation,' he said. Law enforcement is granted fairly broad lawsuit protection even when it fails to provide adequate service. Mr. Rathsack was asking
[Biofuel] I always new they were worthless
http://qconline.com/archives/qco/sections.cgi?prcss=displayid=284986 check this, if it doesnt give you the impression that the forces of law are bad i dont know what will. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
