Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
My apologies to all, especially to John Jaser. While mulling over a post on Methane As A Renewable, I mistakenly posted my thoughts on methane being a no-brainer on the wrong thread. Irony, no? Me scatter-braining while being critical of no-braining. As to methanol as a motor fuel: Relatively safe? Yes, relative to other motor fuels Easily transported? Yes, in the tanks of vehicles. There's a good deal of debate here in NY about transport of crude oil in barges on the Hudson River, by rail, and in tanker trucks. Methanol, while toxic to humans, does not pose the same environmental threat that crude oil does. Always a concern w. transport. Homebrewing: ??? Problem: material compatibility Methanol, like other renewables, is probably best produced locally. The methanol I purchase to make biodiesel costs $160-$200 (US) per 55 gal. drum. Much of the cost reflects costs associated with transport. The barrel that cost me $200 sold for $110 in Buffalo, NY where it arrived by rail. I was told that it sold for $80-90 on the Gulf coast where it arrived by tanker. Not only is there a financial cost associated w. transport, but a great amount of fuel wasted delivering fuel. Sorry, just a commercial for local, small-scale energy production. Preaching to the choir. Tom On Wed, 26 Nov 2014 17:33:57 -0500 Tom ontheh...@fairpoint.net wrote: Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 2:50 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Hi Tom: Sorry should have added the context. Intriguing as perhaps a better common denominator than hydrogen itself. e.g. can be easily transported; can be made from biogas; can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:49 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you? Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic Acid. Ethane: C2H6, Ethanol: C2H5OH each have 6 H's per molecule. Is there something about the number 4 itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom? Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size of the carbon chain. Just wondering, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 12:58 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
That interview with Dr. Olah was a good read. Thanks Darryl. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2014 1:24 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Has anyone read Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy? http://www.technologyreview.com/news/405436/the-methanol-economy/ http://www.amazon.ca/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527324224 If so, any thoughts about the book or subject matter? Darryl On 27/11/2014 12:55 PM, John Jaser wrote: Tom: Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post. I am most certainly not a chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very interesting candidate for energy storage. Since it can be made from a variety of renewable and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an easier economic target to produce than pure hydrogen. Transprots and pumps well, compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas. What to do with it once you make it? The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed further looks promising. Thanks again for the conversation! From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:33 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Have you looked on drag racing forums about methanol for race fuel? And they discuss the effects on the motor and modifications required. Michele On Nov 27, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Darryl McMahon dar...@econogics.com wrote: Has anyone read Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy? http://www.technologyreview.com/news/405436/the-methanol-economy/ http://www.amazon.ca/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527324224 If so, any thoughts about the book or subject matter? Darryl On 27/11/2014 12:55 PM, John Jaser wrote: Tom: Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post. I am most certainly not a chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very interesting candidate for energy storage. Since it can be made from a variety of renewable and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an easier economic target to produce than pure hydrogen. Transprots and pumps well, compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas. What to do with it once you make it? The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed further looks promising. Thanks again for the conversation! From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:33 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
I have not yet started in on racing forums, as I understand they use 100% methanol as fuel, and my interest is using a mix of methanol (up to 50% possibly) in order to avoid making engine modifications while not sacrificing engine life. The idea of the methanol energy economy is way beyond my current practical interest, but definitely of academic interest. Darryl On 28/11/2014 1:08 PM, Michele Stephenson wrote: Have you looked on drag racing forums about methanol for race fuel? And they discuss the effects on the motor and modifications required. Michele On Nov 27, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Darryl McMahon dar...@econogics.com wrote: Has anyone read Beyond Oil and Gas: The Methanol Economy? http://www.technologyreview.com/news/405436/the-methanol-economy/ http://www.amazon.ca/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527324224 If so, any thoughts about the book or subject matter? Darryl On 27/11/2014 12:55 PM, John Jaser wrote: Tom: Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post. I am most certainly not a chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very interesting candidate for energy storage. Since it can be made from a variety of renewable and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an easier economic target to produce than pure hydrogen. Transprots and pumps well, compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas. What to do with it once you make it? The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed further looks promising. Thanks again for the conversation! From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:33 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Tom: Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post. I am most certainly not a chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very interesting candidate for energy storage. Since it can be made from a variety of renewable and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an easier economic target to produce than pure hydrogen. Transprots and pumps well, compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas. What to do with it once you make it? The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed further looks promising. Thanks again for the conversation! From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:33 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 2:50 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Hi Tom: Sorry should have added the context. Intriguing as perhaps a better common denominator than hydrogen itself. e.g. can be easily transported; can be made from biogas; can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:49 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you? Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic Acid. Ethane: C2H6, Ethanol: C2H5OH each have 6 H's per molecule. Is there something about the number 4 itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom? Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size of the carbon chain. Just wondering, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 12:58 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Methanol is super intriguing… the amount of hydrogen per molecule. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:06 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol
[Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect the latter to be manageable. Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information? ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel. However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully adapted to the methanol fuel. That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is currently classfied due to pending patent. I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity. Best Jan Warnqvisr -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect the latter to be manageable. Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information? ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel 2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance? Engine will not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline blend. I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far regarding methanol blend). I am assuming the fuel computer is working on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol and methanol. 3) what does the home-brew operation entail? (if it is not based on a sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it) Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point. I'll keep researching as time permits. Darryl On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel. However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully adapted to the methanol fuel. That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is currently classfied due to pending patent. I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity. Best Jan Warnqvisr -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect the latter to be manageable. Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information? ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel -- Darryl McMahon Project Manager, Common Assessment and Referral for Enhanced Support Services (CARESS) ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Methanol is super intriguing… the amount of hydrogen per molecule. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:06 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel 2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance? Engine will not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline blend. I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far regarding methanol blend). I am assuming the fuel computer is working on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol and methanol. 3) what does the home-brew operation entail? (if it is not based on a sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it) Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point. I'll keep researching as time permits. Darryl On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel. However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully adapted to the methanol fuel. That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is currently classfied due to pending patent. I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity. Best Jan Warnqvisr -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect the latter to be manageable. Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information? ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel -- Darryl McMahon Project Manager, Common Assessment and Referral for Enhanced Support Services (CARESS
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Years ago I read that vehicles owned by New York State (U.S.) and operated on the New York State Thruway used either ethanol or methanol depending on availability. However, the manual for my flex fuel Ford Ranger warns against the use of methanol. A few years ago I asked the list if I could use homebrewed ethanol that was denatured with methanol (98:2 ratio) and was advised against it. How did Jan put it? Methanol is like ethanol only more so. Synthetic rubber seals and fuel lines hold up to ethanol, maybe not so well to methanol. Tom -Original Message- From: Darryl McMahon dar...@econogics.com Sent: 11/26/2014 10:03 AM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect the latter to be manageable. Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information? ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you? Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic Acid. Ethane: C2H6, Ethanol: C2H5OH each have 6 H's per molecule. Is there something about the number 4 itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom? Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size of the carbon chain. Just wondering, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 12:58 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Methanol is super intriguing… the amount of hydrogen per molecule. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:06 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel 2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance? Engine will not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline blend. I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far regarding methanol blend). I am assuming the fuel computer is working on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol and methanol. 3) what does the home-brew operation entail? (if it is not based on a sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it) Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point. I'll keep researching as time permits. Darryl On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel. However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully adapted to the methanol fuel. That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is currently classfied due to pending patent. I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity. Best Jan Warnqvisr -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of gasoline at a maximum, probably less. I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is more expensive than gasoline. However, could be an option for experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production. I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but expect
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Hi Tom: Sorry should have added the context. Intriguing as perhaps a better common denominator than hydrogen itself. e.g. can be easily transported; can be made from biogas; can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:49 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you? Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic Acid. Ethane: C2H6, Ethanol: C2H5OH each have 6 H's per molecule. Is there something about the number 4 itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom? Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size of the carbon chain. Just wondering, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 12:58 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Methanol is super intriguing… the amount of hydrogen per molecule. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:06 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel 2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance? Engine will not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline blend. I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far regarding methanol blend). I am assuming the fuel computer is working on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol and methanol. 3) what does the home-brew operation entail? (if it is not based on a sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it) Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point. I'll keep researching as time permits. Darryl On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel. However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully adapted to the methanol fuel. That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is currently classfied due to pending patent. I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity. Best Jan Warnqvisr -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer. I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it. Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort? My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which is supported by this document. https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof racks come easily to mind). I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working space is at a premium. Also, the processes I see seem to be based on having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis). However, I don't think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and I figure
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
Aaah, methane is intriguing. Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others that many would assign them to their own kingdom. As to methane being easily transported consider where propane and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane resists liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the fly in the ointment. Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. Methane has value as a renewable fuel. It is captured and used at waste treatment plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm machinery however. Relatively safe.Hmmm Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. Ocean burps from vast storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the waste became valuable. Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel a renewable fuel. Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane. Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to generate electricity seems appropriate. Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing. Best, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 2:50 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Hi Tom: Sorry should have added the context. Intriguing as perhaps a better common denominator than hydrogen itself. e.g. can be easily transported; can be made from biogas; can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe From: Tom Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:49 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you? Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic Acid. Ethane: C2H6, Ethanol: C2H5OH each have 6 H's per molecule. Is there something about the number 4 itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom? Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size of the carbon chain. Just wondering, Tom -Original Message- From: John Jaser j...@jaser.net Sent: 11/26/2014 12:58 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel Methanol is super intriguing… the amount of hydrogen per molecule. From: Darryl McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:06 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Jan, thanks for the quick response. Not scaring me off. I have read something which suggests adding methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. Lower energy content was known and accepted. I generally use synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic lubrication oils. So, still curious. Not a front-burner issue for me. So 3 lines of research at this point. 1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel 2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance? Engine will not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline blend. I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far regarding methanol blend). I am assuming the fuel computer is working on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol and methanol. 3) what does the home-brew operation entail? (if it is not based on a sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it) Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point. I'll keep researching
