Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Hallo D., Historians, like intel analysts, should observe and report without viewing the events through the lens of their own preconceived notions, cherished beliefs, political and religious bias and be absolutely impartial but that isn't what happens which is why we have historical revisionists not to mention a political office in the pentagon which sifts through the intel and takes whatever supports their position regardless of whether the intel is good or flawed. I believe this happens because we are not taught how to properly think and reason impartially. This happens with even the most well educated of us. Folks learn/believe something and it becomes almost holy to them. My side is the good and yours is the evil. type of thing. A couple of examples spring immediately to mind but the one which I will use comes from this forum and that would be the thread about science versus traditional/alternative medicine. On the one hand we have the folks holding that only that which has been investigated and proven by scientific principles is worthy of use and on the other we have the traditionalists who hold that their methods work and go on to use a different vocabulary to explain why if they even know why. It is interesting that those on the scientific side do not seem to understand that the more we learn the more we ought to realize how very little we really know and on the traditional side how quick we are to dismiss things because they come from modern science. Where is the middle path? Tuesday, 28 November, 2006, 02:05:49, you wrote: DM Hi Leo, DMRight on! History as written in books is largely either incomplete or DM wrong, sometimes DM intentionally so. I wonder how two historians, one leaning to the right and DM the other leaning to the DM left, will record the history of the Bush/Cheney administration. DM Peace, D. Mindock DM - Original Message - DM From: leo bunyan DM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org DM Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:45 PM DM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax DM I'm still here D DM Funny how history repeats itself or stays the same DM Really it's a bit pointless teaching history in schools DM as nobody seems to learn from it DM Leo DM D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DM Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I put that hoax article out there to see what the DM reponse would be. DM I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't want him to suffer from DM spinmeisterism. DM Peace, D. Mindock DM - Original Message - DM From: Bob Molloy DM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org DM Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22 PM DM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax DM Hi All, DMHoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is DM pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to DM make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the DM Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to DM a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. DM We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the DM obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working DM in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that DM political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. DM Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor DM housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be DM sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien DM conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon DM adapted. DM However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let DM us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the DM first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in DM modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American DM article. DM On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this DM fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US DM military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every DM hour since Christ was born. DM Bob. DM From: DM http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A DM 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 DM http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm DM[Printer-friendly version] DM The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology DM Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a DM prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. DM By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffrey D. Sachs DM One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine DM society's desires for economic prosperity
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Well, we know at least, that the conservative point of view will be well represented. As you probably already know George W. has already begun soliciting for his memorial library. I Understand that the goal is $500 million plus. He is soliciting these funds from companies that he still will have a direct say about their future for the next two years (can anyone say conflict of interest)? For that kind of money, a sort of Bush world can be created in which George and his supporters can continue their fantasies and talk about the good old days. I suspect a special route will have to be created, so George will not have to see the reality of the world he created. Just leave the ranch, go to the museum and then back to the ranch, having spent time with the real people of uhhmerika (another crowd of hand-picked, Texas redneck, neocon supporters) to cheer their undying love for their ex-president! Al from Florida [Original Message] From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: 11/28/2006 2:07:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Hi Leo, Right on! History as written in books is largely either incomplete or wrong, sometimes intentionally so. I wonder how two historians, one leaning to the right and the other leaning to the left, will record the history of the Bush/Cheney administration. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: leo bunyan To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax I'm still here D Funny how history repeats itself or stays the same Really it's a bit pointless teaching history in schools as nobody seems to learn from it Leo D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I put that hoax article out there to see what the reponse would be. I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't want him to suffer from spinmeisterism. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Hi All, Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon adapted. However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American article. On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every hour since Christ was born. Bob. From: http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm [Printer-friendly version] The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffrey D. Sachs One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich August von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a road to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself. Most of the debate in the U.S
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
maybe I am wrong but don't they also export good things as well as bad? Humanitarians like Audrey Hepburn et all going to third world countries to try to do some good? but as someone else on here so eloquently put it: "No good deed goes unprofited". I am trying, really trying, to see some good in everyone. I know that there are some good Americans, the folks on this list are I am sure (I assume) and my Grandma was American, so I know you can't be all bad! PS I apologise most profusely for earlier posting full of typos! From: "Jason Katie" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving HoaxDate: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 22:07:25 -0600 yeah, a wealth of fullmetal jacket .223's. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Hi Fred, Did I read you right? That Americans share their wealth? Examples please, Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: Fred Oliff To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax maybe we ought to re-define what is meant by rich? what is wealth after all if you do not share it? And the Americans do! what is wealth if you do not have your health, but a huge burden? From:"JAMES PHELPS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving HoaxDate:Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:09:10 -0700snicker snicker snicker, OK specificaly the USA ( richest country in theworld is a quote from a Canadian I met) From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:33:13 -0500 What?Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare?JAMES PHELPS wrote:I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom?And why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with universal health care. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006 4:00 AM No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006 4:00 AM ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Hi D It will be recorded in the same method as always. The lie will satisfy those that don't want to or are incapable of thinking about it And those of us that the lie dosen't sit comfortable with will have to scratch thru for the truth, but of course by then it will to late to do anything about it. You probably don't believe me , but I am an optomist Leo D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Leo, Right on! History as written in books is largely either incomplete or wrong, sometimes intentionally so. I wonder how two historians, one leaning to the right and the other leaning to the left, will record the history of the Bush/Cheney administration. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: leo bunyan To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax I'm still here D Funny how history repeats itself or stays the same Really it's a bit pointless teaching history in schools as nobody seems to learn from it Leo D. Mindock wrote: Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I put that hoax article out there to see what the reponse would be. I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't want him to suffer from spinmeisterism. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Hi All, Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon adapted. However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American article. On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every hour since Christ was born. Bob. From: 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 [Printer-friendly version] The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. By Jeffrey D. Sachs One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market economist Friedrich August von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a road to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself. Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical record to judge these issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states that have high rates of taxation and social outlays. Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with 19th-century Britain and its theories of economic laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states are the Nordic social democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or all of the post-World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
universal health care, unlike in the USA where it's every man/women for his/her self. JAMES PHELPS wrote: Wow that’s almost 4 to one worse. Also how do Canada, Sweden and Iceland do so well coming from the free world? - Original Message - *From:* bob allen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden 3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date: 11/25/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom? And why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with universal health care. On another beat, what was that saying on the statue of liberty? I wonder if that will have to be revisited concerning our new fence in the south.? Jim From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 07:23:50 -0600 universal health care, unlike in the USA where it's every man/women for his/her self. JAMES PHELPS wrote: Wow thats almost 4 to one worse. Also how do Canada, Sweden and Iceland do so well coming from the free world? - Original Message - *From:* bob allen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden 3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
What? Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare? JAMES PHELPS wrote: I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom? And why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with universal health care. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
snicker snicker snicker, OK specificaly the USA ( richest country in the world is a quote from a Canadian I met) From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:33:13 -0500 What? Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare? JAMES PHELPS wrote: I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom? And why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with universal health care. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Hi Bob, Why not compare apples with apples? If we really want to inform ourselves shouldn't we be comparing what it is in various western democracies that produces such important health statistics? Patting ourselves on the back for having better infant mortality rates than third world countries is of little help. Better to look to the front runners such as Sweden and Norway (second and seventh respectively in the world ranking for infant mortality rates while the US is 36th). All three are democracies, the difference is that the first two are socialist in the sense that their governments own and run all the big ticket items such as water, power, education and health, with education and health provided free. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
You must not have read his reply to me, he did just that, and he was not compairing any thing as far as I could tell just pointing out a mis information in another post. Jim From: Bob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:27:11 +1300 Hi Bob, Why not compare apples with apples? If we really want to inform ourselves shouldn't we be comparing what it is in various western democracies that produces such important health statistics? Patting ourselves on the back for having better infant mortality rates than third world countries is of little help. Better to look to the front runners such as Sweden and Norway (second and seventh respectively in the world ranking for infant mortality rates while the US is 36th). All three are democracies, the difference is that the first two are socialist in the sense that their governments own and run all the big ticket items such as water, power, education and health, with education and health provided free. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Howdy Bob, I certainly didn't mean to imply that our health care system is better than others. I offered up the statistics only to correct a statement made by another. Personally I am embarrassed by the poor overall state of health care in the USA and as I mentioned in another post, it is due principally to the lack of universal health care. Another factor is our downright foolish reluctance to teach about sex in public schools and on and on. Clinton had an initiative to move towards universal health care at the beginning of his first term, but the proposal went no where. Costs continue to rise while more and more are left without insurance. Maybe with our ever so slight lurch to the left, we may see some movement towards providing health care for all. http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2006/11/27/news/latest_news/b1e8f84368598b8886257233007700f6.txt Bob Molloy wrote: Hi Bob, Why not compare apples with apples? If we really want to inform ourselves shouldn't we be comparing what it is in various western democracies that produces such important health statistics? Patting ourselves on the back for having better infant mortality rates than third world countries is of little help. Better to look to the front runners such as Sweden and Norway (second and seventh respectively in the world ranking for infant mortality rates while the US is 36th). All three are democracies, the difference is that the first two are socialist in the sense that their governments own and run all the big ticket items such as water, power, education and health, with education and health provided free. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
maybe we ought to re-define what is meant by rich? what is wealth after all if you do not share it? And the Americans do! what is wealth if you do not have your health, but a huge burden? From:"JAMES PHELPS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving HoaxDate:Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:09:10 -0700snicker snicker snicker, OK specificaly the USA ( richest country in theworld is a quote from a Canadian I met) From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:33:13 -0500 What?Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare?JAMES PHELPS wrote:I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom?And why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with universal health care. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
bob allen wrote: Clinton had an initiative to move towards universal health care at the beginning of his first term, but the proposal went no where. Costs continue to rise while more and more are left without insurance. Maybe with our ever so slight lurch to the left, we may see some movement towards providing health care for all. I liken the social safety net to a measure that prevents people from falling into a well. Having lived under American style health care and socialized health care in Canada, I like to say that in the US, the social safety net only exists after you hit the bottom . . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
I'm still here D Funny how history repeats itself or stays the same Really it's a bit pointless teaching history in schools as nobody seems to learn from it Leo D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I put that hoax article out there to see what the reponse would be. I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't want him to suffer from spinmeisterism. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From:Bob Molloy To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The GreatThanksgiving Hoax Hi All, Hoaxindeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is pureunadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history tomake it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current schemeis to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants inline. We don't need to know any facts at all aboutthe first colonists except the obvious that starving people aredesperate. They will even stoop to working in the fields if necessary just tostay alive, which would suggest that political orientation is muchlower on the individual's hierachy of needs. Yes, some diddie in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poorhousing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be sure of is that crop failure would be a likelyoutcome under alien conditions. We also know that theFounding Fathers learned quickly and soon adapted. However, if an assessment of socialism as aworking concept is needed let us - instead of making assumptions about theoutcome of socialism in the first colony - take a look at how it actuallyworks out in practice in modern states. See below for a re-run of therecent Scientific American article. On the question of efficient production and useof resources, how about this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, JohnPilger's latest book: The US military budget for one year is theequivalent of $30,000 an hour for every hour since Christ wasborn. Bob. From: http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm [Printer-friendly version] The Social Welfare State, BeyondIdeology Are higher taxes and strong social safetynets antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence isnow in. By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8JeffreyD. Sachs One of the great challenges of sustainabledevelopment is to combine society's desires for economic prosperityand social security. For decades economists and politicians havedebated how to reconcile the undoubted power of markets with thereassuring protections of social insurance. America's supply-sidersclaim that the best way to achieve well-being for America's poor isby spurring rapid economic growth and that the higher taxes neededto fund high levels of social insurance would cripple prosperity.Austrian-born free-market economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrichAugust von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would bea road to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself. Most of the debate in the U.S. is cloudedby vested interests and by ideology. Yet there is by now a richempirical record to judge these issues scientifically. The evidencemay be found by comparing a group of relatively free-marketeconomies that have low to moderate rates of taxation and socialoutlays with a group of social-welfare states that have high ratesof taxation and social outlays. Not coincidentally, the low-tax,high-income countries are mostly English-speaking ones that share adirect historical lineage with 19th-century Britain and itstheories of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomic laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordicsocial democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden,which have been governed by left-of-center social democraticparties for much or all of the post-World War II era. They combinea healthy respect for market forces with a strong commitment toantipoverty programs. Budgetary outlays for social purposes averagearound 27 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in the Nordiccountries and just 17 percent of GDP in the English-speakingcountries
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Hi Fred, Did I read you right? That Americans share their wealth? Examples please, Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: Fred Oliff To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax maybe we ought to re-define what is meant by rich? what is wealth after all if you do not share it? And the Americans do! what is wealth if you do not have your health, but a huge burden? From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:09:10 -0700 snicker snicker snicker, OK specificaly the USA ( richest country in the world is a quote from a Canadian I met) From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:33:13 -0500 What? Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare? JAMES PHELPS wrote: I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom? And why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with universal health care. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
yeah, a wealth of full metal jacket .223's. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Hi Fred, Did I read you right? That Americans share their wealth? Examples please, Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: Fred Oliff To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax maybe we ought to re-define what is meant by rich? what is wealth after all if you do not share it? And the Americans do! what is wealth if you do not have your health, but a huge burden? -- From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:09:10 -0700 snicker snicker snicker, OK specificaly the USA ( richest country in the world is a quote from a Canadian I met) From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:33:13 -0500 What? Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare? JAMES PHELPS wrote: I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom? And why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with universal health care. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006 4:00 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006 4:00 AM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Hi Leo, Right on! History as written in books is largely either incomplete or wrong, sometimes intentionally so. I wonder how two historians, one leaning to the right and the other leaning to the left, will record the history of the Bush/Cheney administration. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: leo bunyan To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax I'm still here D Funny how history repeats itself or stays the same Really it's a bit pointless teaching history in schools as nobody seems to learn from it Leo D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I put that hoax article out there to see what the reponse would be. I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't want him to suffer from spinmeisterism. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Hi All, Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon adapted. However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American article. On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every hour since Christ was born. Bob. From: http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm [Printer-friendly version] The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffrey D. Sachs One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich August von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a road to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself. Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical record to judge these issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states that have high rates of taxation and social outlays. Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with 19th-century Britain and its theories of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomic laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordic social democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or all of the post-World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs. Budgetary outlays for social purposes average around 27 percent
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
On 11/24/06, D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* *by Richard J. Marbury* snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. Kirk Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/24/06, D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 The Great Thanksgiving Hoax by Richard J. Marbury snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Hi All, Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon adapted. However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American article. On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every hour since Christ was born. Bob. From: http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm [Printer-friendly version] The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffrey D. Sachs One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich August von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a road to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself. Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical record to judge these issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states that have high rates of taxation and social outlays. Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with 19th-century Britain and its theories of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomic laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordic social democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or all of the post-World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs. Budgetary outlays for social purposes average around 27 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in the Nordic countries and just 17 percent of GDP in the English-speaking countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich Von Hayek was wrong On average, the Nordic countries outperform the Anglo-Saxon ones on most measures of economic performance. Poverty rates are much lower there, and national income per working-age population is on average higher. Unemployment rates are roughly the same in both groups, just slightly higher in the Nordic countries. The budget situation is stronger in the Nordic group, with larger surpluses as a share of GDP. The Nordic countries maintain their dynamism despite high taxation in several ways. Most important, they spend lavishly on research and development and higher education. All of them, but especially Sweden and Finland, have taken to the sweeping revolution in information and communications technology and leveraged it to gain global competitiveness. Sweden
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Gee and all this time I thought Thanksgiving was about the retail merchants giving thanks for the starting gun of the X-mas season going off. Jim ;^) - Original Message - From: Bob Molloymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Hi All, Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon adapted. However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American article. On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every hour since Christ was born. Bob. From: http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-Ahttp://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htmhttp://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm [Printer-friendly version] The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffreyhttp://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffrey D. Sachs One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrichhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich August von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a road to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself. Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical record to judge these issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states that have high rates of taxation and social outlays. Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with 19th-century Britain and its theories of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomichttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomic laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordichttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordic social democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or all of the post-World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs. Budgetary outlays for social purposes average around 27 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in the Nordic countries and just 17 percent of GDP in the English-speaking countries. http
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date: 11/25/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Wow that's almost 4 to one worse. Also how do Canada, Sweden and Iceland do so well coming from the free world? - Original Message - From: bob allenmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htmhttp://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.htmlhttp://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source of abundance is God? Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide, slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbetahttp://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42297/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date: 11/25/2006 -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bobhttp://ozarker.org/bob
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I put that hoax article out there to see what the reponse would be. I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't want him to suffer from spinmeisterism. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Hi All, Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line. We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon adapted. However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American article. On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every hour since Christ was born. Bob. From: http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A 9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm [Printer-friendly version] The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in. By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8Jeffrey D. Sachs One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich August von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a road to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself. Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical record to judge these issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states that have high rates of taxation and social outlays. Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with 19th-century Britain and its theories of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomic laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordic social democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or all of the post-World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs. Budgetary outlays for social purposes average around 27 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in the Nordic countries and just 17 percent of GDP in the English-speaking countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrich Von Hayek was wrong On average, the Nordic countries outperform the Anglo-Saxon ones on most measures of economic performance. Poverty rates are much lower there, and national income per working-age population is on average higher. Unemployment rates are roughly the same in both groups, just slightly higher in the Nordic
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Very interesting Thanks D D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 The Great Thanksgiving Hoax by Richard J. Marbury Each year at this time school children all over America are taught the official Thanksgiving story, and newspapers, radio, TV, and magazines devote vast amounts of time and space to it. It is all very colorful and fascinating. It is also very deceiving. This official story is nothing like what really happened. It is a fairy tale, a whitewashed and sanitized collection of half-truths which divert attention away from Thanksgiving's real meaning. The official story has the pilgrims boarding the Mayflower, coming to America and establishing the Plymouth colony in the winter of 1620-21. This first winter is hard, and half the colonists die. But the survivors are hard- working and tenacious, and they learn new farming techniques from the Indians. The harvest of 1621 is bountiful. The Pilgrims hold a celebration, and give thanks to God. They are grateful for the wonderful new abundant land He has given them. The official story then has the Pilgrims living more or less happily ever after, each year repeating the first Thanksgiving. Other early colonies also have hard times at first, but they soon prosper and adopt the annual tradition of giving thanks for this prosperous new land called America. The problem with this official story is that the harvest of 1621 was not bountiful, nor were the colonists hard-working or tenacious. 1621 was a famine year and many of the colonists were lazy thieves. In his History of Plymouth Plantation, the governor of the colony, William Bradford, reported that the colonists went hungry for years, because they refused to work in the fields. They preferred instead to steal food. He says the colony was riddled with corruption, and with confusion and discontent. The crops were small because much was stolen both by night and day, before it became scarce eatable. In the harvest feasts of 1621 and 1622, all had their hungry bellies filled, but only briefly. The prevailing condition during those years was not the abundance the official story claims; it was famine and death. The first Thanksgiving was not so much a celebration as it was the last meal of condemned men. But in subsequent years something changes. The harvest of 1623 was different. Suddenly, instead of famine now God gave them plenty, Bradford wrote, and the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the hearts of many, for which they blessed God. Thereafter, he wrote, any general want or famine hath not been amongst them since to this day. In fact, in 1624, so much food was produced that the colonists were able to begin exporting corn. What happened? After the poor harvest of 1622, writes Bradford, they began to think how they might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better crop. They began to question their form of economic organization. This had required that all profits benefits that are got by trade, working, fishing, or any other means were to be placed in the common stock of the colony, and that, all such persons as are of this colony, are to have their meat, drink, apparel, and all provisions out of the common stock. A person was to put into the common stock all he could, and take out only what he needed. This from each according to his ability, to each according to his need was an early form of socialism, and it is why the Pilgrims were starving. Bradford writes that young men that are most able and fit for labor and service complained about being forced to spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children. Also, the strong, or man of parts, had no more in division of victuals and clothes, than he that was weak. So the young and strong refused to work, and the total amount of food produced was never adequate. To rectify this situation, in 1623 Bradford abolished socialism. He gave each household a parcel of land and told them they could keep what they produced, or trade it away as they saw fit. In other words, he replaced socialism with a free market, and that was the end of famines. Many early groups of colonists set up socialist states, all with the same terrible results. At Jamestown, established in 1607, out of every shipload of settlers that arrived, less than half would survive their first twelve months in America. Most of the work was being done by only one-fifth of the men, the other four-fifths choosing to be parasites. In the winter of 1609-10, called The Starving Time, the population fell from five-hundred to sixty. Then the Jamestown colony was converted to a
