Re: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
P.S. -- Sorry folks, I didn't see what auto correct was doing. That's supposed to be *shingles*, not singles. . . . -- ¡Ay, Pachamamita! ¡Eres la cosa más bonita! ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
Yes, I realize solar singles have been around for a while. Almost a decade now. But until only pretty recently, they were quite expensive in comparison to conventional PV panels. Using coal as a cost benchmark is capricious and arbitrary. When paying our coal-generated electricity bill, is the cost of our roof included in there somewhere? The only real questions to be answered are: --What is the current efficiency of these alternative material singles? --How much less expensive (if at all) than normal PV singles are they at this time? -- ¡Ay, Pachamamita! ¡Eres la cosa más bonita! ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
The whole cost effective test is quite odd. Why is that always the measure of whether solar is worth doing? No one ever asks this about other things. Is having a child cost effective? How about going to a concert? Even for other buying decisions it is rarely asked. Is a dishwasher cost effective? How about going out for a nice dinner out instead of buying some gmo prepackaged microwave dinner? Quality of life is what many decisions are based on and solar should be the same. Is it worth having a livable planet. On Sunday, February 15, 2015, Chris Burck chris.bu...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, I realize solar singles have been around for a while. Almost a decade now. But until only pretty recently, they were quite expensive in comparison to conventional PV panels. Using coal as a cost benchmark is capricious and arbitrary. When paying our coal-generated electricity bill, is the cost of our roof included in there somewhere? The only real questions to be answered are: --What is the current efficiency of these alternative material singles? --How much less expensive (if at all) than normal PV singles are they at this time? -- ¡Ay, Pachamamita! ¡Eres la cosa más bonita! ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org javascript:; http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
Interesting weave developing to the term being competitive w.
coal.
First: a ridiculous benchmark ... causing artificial inertia.
Then: using coal as a benchmark being arbitrary and capricious
Then: the notion that cost effectiveness is only applied to solar.
1. If the inertia initially referred to is to be strapped to
consumers, I don't think it is artificial. It is a simple question
of affordability. News of a potential cost decrease is welcome.
If the inertia refers to hesitance on the part of developers, my
point was that the desire to achieve affordability was the driving
force behind recent developments in the technology.
2. Arbitrary and capricious: simply put, the absence of a rational
connection between the facts found and the choice made.
Comparing the cost of a new roof having a 20+ year lifespan that
provides one's electricity during that time to the cost of a similar
roof w.
the expected cost of electricity supplied by coal for the next 20
years
doesn't seem to be arbitrary and capricious.
How do we know if we can afford something over the long term w/o a
basis
for comparison?
3. Cost effectiveness only being applied to solar: There was
discussion this past summer (see Regina Restaurateur (sp) energized
by old veggie oil
Biofuel archives June 24- 25, 2014) between Darryl and myself re: the
consideration of payback period.
{excerpt} I have a problem with the term payback period.
We don't ask about payback period when we go on
vacation, or buy a car with all the options. Does
the gardener really calculate the payback period
for
the time and cost of planting and tending the
garden?
Why would anyone plant flower beds?
My experience is that payback period is often
used an
excuse for inaction. Blessings to those who read,
listen and learn, calculate feasibility and then act
with
the understanding that sustainability is the goal
and joy
is part of the payoff.
On purely practical matters most of us do basic calculations re:
cost
effectiveness/payback periods, etc. What will it cost compared to what
we currently pay.
Ex:
Many of us, while managing $100/mo electric bills; even going
$110/mo
in order to have electricity from renewable sources, may not be able
to
fork over $25,000 for a solar setup. (This, with tax incentives
included).
Anything that reduces cost compared to what we currently pay tips the
scale.
Alternative I'm considering:
20 year lease; free installation and maintenance; monthly cost
the
same or less than my current monthly electric bill.
Back to my original interest and comments:
Given a new roof (this past fall) and possibility of 20 year lease
on a pv solar setup, the availability of solar roof shingles made from
common,
available elements at lower cost 20 years down the road is
provocative;
could be my next roofing material just in time for lease expiration
and for new
shingles.
Best to You,
Tom
On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 09:03:20 -0700
Zeke Yewdall zyewd...@gmail.com wrote:
The whole cost effective test is quite odd. Why is that always the
measure of whether solar is worth doing? No one ever asks this
about
other things. Is having a child cost effective? How about going
to a
concert? Even for other buying decisions it is rarely asked. Is a
dishwasher cost effective? How about going out for a nice dinner
out
instead of buying some gmo prepackaged microwave dinner? Quality of
life
is what many decisions are based on and solar should be the same. Is
it
worth having a livable planet.
On Sunday, February 15, 2015, Chris Burck chris.bu...@gmail.com
wrote:
Yes, I realize solar singles have been around for a while. Almost a
decade
now. But until only pretty recently, they were quite expensive in
comparison to conventional PV panels.
Using coal as a cost benchmark is capricious and arbitrary. When
paying
our coal-generated electricity bill, is the cost of our roof included
in
there somewhere? The only real questions to be answered are:
--What is the current efficiency of these alternative material
singles?
--How much less expensive (if at all) than normal PV singles are
they at
this time?
--
¡Ay, Pachamamita! ¡Eres la cosa más bonita!
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Re: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
Nice. Cost competitive with coal-fired power plants within 2 decades.. Just had my roof done, but will be ready to re-shingle by then. See Darryl, I'm not so impatient. With the new roof, I'm interested in pv panels. What is the functional life span? I assume it will get me to my next roof made of solar shingles; 20-25 years. Tom -Original Message- From: Darryl McMahon dar...@econogics.com Sent: 2/13/2015 7:52 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option http://e360.yale.edu/digest/solar_shingles_made_from__common_metals_offer_cheaper_energy_option/3600/ e360 digest 22 Aug 2012: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option U.S. scientists say that emerging photovoltaic technologies will enable the production of solar shingles made from abundantly available elements rather than rare-earth metals, an innovation that would make solar energy cheaper and more sustainable. Speaking at the annual meeting of the American Chemical Society, a team of researchers described advances in solar cells made with abundant metals, such as copper and zinc. While the market already offers solar shingles that convert the sun’s energy into electricity, producers typically must use elements that are scarce and expensive, such as indium and gallium. According to Harry A. Atwater, a physicist at the California Institute of Technology, recent tests suggest that materials like zinc phosphide and copper oxide could be capable of producing electricity at prices competitive with coal-fired power plants within two decades. With China accounting for more than 90 percent of the world’s rare-earth supplies — and prices rising sharply — companies and nations are racing to find new sources of rare earth minerals, which are used in everything from solar panels to smart phones. ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
Tom, in this age, I think impatience is a virtue. I think it is what drives the improvements we need. I have been waiting for BIPV (building integrated photovoltaics - like solar shingles) to go mainstream for at least a decade. In the meantime, conventional PV panels have accumulated, electric vehicles have taken up residence in the driveway, yard and lake, solar heating for the house and domestic hot water, super insulation in the attic and one exterior wall ... That has all been driven by seeing a better future and impatience to get there. New shingles here 4 years ago, so if they are available in 20, I will also be looking at them. Darryl On 14/02/2015 10:17 AM, Tom wrote: Nice. Cost competitive with coal-fired power plants within 2 decades.. Just had my roof done, but will be ready to re-shingle by then. See Darryl, I'm not so impatient. With the new roof, I'm interested in pv panels. What is the functional life span? I assume it will get me to my next roof made of solar shingles; 20-25 years. Tom -Original Message- From: Darryl McMahon dar...@econogics.com Sent: 2/13/2015 7:52 PM To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option http://e360.yale.edu/digest/solar_shingles_made_from__common_metals_offer_cheaper_energy_option/3600/ e360 digest 22 Aug 2012: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option U.S. scientists say that emerging photovoltaic technologies will enable the production of solar shingles made from abundantly available elements rather than rare-earth metals, an innovation that would make solar energy cheaper and more sustainable. Speaking at the annual meeting of the American Chemical Society, a team of researchers described advances in solar cells made with abundant metals, such as copper and zinc. While the market already offers solar shingles that convert the sun’s energy into electricity, producers typically must use elements that are scarce and expensive, such as indium and gallium. According to Harry A. Atwater, a physicist at the California Institute of Technology, recent tests suggest that materials like zinc phosphide and copper oxide could be capable of producing electricity at prices competitive with coal-fired power plants within two decades. With China accounting for more than 90 percent of the world’s rare-earth supplies — and prices rising sharply — companies and nations are racing to find new sources of rare earth minerals, which are used in everything from solar panels to smart phones. ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel -- Darryl McMahon Project Manager, Common Assessment and Referral for Enhanced Support Services (CARESS) ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
All well and good. Of course, we need them now, and would have them by now if this ridiculous benchmark of being competitive with coal weren't causing artificial inertia. -- ¡Ay, Pachamamita! ¡Eres la cosa más bonita! ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
Solar shingles have been available for years; Dow's Powerhouse line since about 2005. see Article in Scientific America 2013: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/im-getting-my-roof-redone-and-heard-about-solar-shingles/ The first solar shingles were often more difficult to install than pv panels = high cost of installation. The benchmark of being competitive w. coal may well be the driving force behind improvements that have lead to significant reduction in price vs anchor holding it back. - thin film pv allowed for fast, easy installation (lower cost) - shingles made of elements more common than the indium and gallium used in the current copper, indium, gallium, selenide pv film would further lower cost Combine lowered cost w. tax incentives to install = a good thing for us common folk Tesla announced that it will make its batteries available for home energy use. Someone (Darryl?) will this also be good for residential pv installation? Tom On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 11:23:55 -0600 Chris Burck chris.bu...@gmail.com wrote: All well and good. Of course, we need them now, and would have them by now if this ridiculous benchmark of being competitive with coal weren't causing artificial inertia. -- ¡Ay, Pachamamita! ¡Eres la cosa más bonita! ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
The devil is in the details, but I expect the Tesla house-battery will be excellent for PV storage and micro-cogeneration. Most off-grid houses (in my limited experience) seem to have about 10 to 20 kWh of storage. The smallest Tesla car pack so far is 65 kWh. Assuming the house-batteries are based on returned car packs which no longer make the grade for vehicle use (below 85% of original capacity), that's still 55 kWh - a big step up in capacity. That gives the house-owner the option of aiming for 60-70% of full as a target, and room to store more when generation is bountiful, and still have more capacity for non-generation reserve than before. I remember the ad for Dow's Powerhouse shingles in HomePower magazine way back, but could not find a Canadian distributor - that was probably around 2006 or 2007. Grid connection was difficult to impossible at that time anyway. Put that money into solar heating and insulation instead. Darryl On 14/02/2015 4:33 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Solar shingles have been available for years; Dow's Powerhouse line since about 2005. see Article in Scientific America 2013: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/im-getting-my-roof-redone-and-heard-about-solar-shingles/ The first solar shingles were often more difficult to install than pv panels = high cost of installation. The benchmark of being competitive w. coal may well be the driving force behind improvements that have lead to significant reduction in price vs anchor holding it back. - thin film pv allowed for fast, easy installation (lower cost) - shingles made of elements more common than the indium and gallium used in the current copper, indium, gallium, selenide pv film would further lower cost Combine lowered cost w. tax incentives to install = a good thing for us common folk Tesla announced that it will make its batteries available for home energy use. Someone (Darryl?) will this also be good for residential pv installation? Tom On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 11:23:55 -0600 Chris Burck chris.bu...@gmail.com wrote: All well and good. Of course, we need them now, and would have them by now if this ridiculous benchmark of being competitive with coal weren't causing artificial inertia. -- ¡Ay, Pachamamita! ¡Eres la cosa más bonita! ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel -- Darryl McMahon Project Manager, Common Assessment and Referral for Enhanced Support Services (CARESS) ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
The dow shingles have fairly limited distribution from what can tell. They are only selling them to roofers here in Colorado, not to solar installers -- so despite having all of the various solar certifications, I cannot sell them. Definitely not selling them retail to DIY folks. Needless to say, I'm not a big fan of them. I wonder how the roofers are fairing with dealing with all of the various electrical design issues that are still 75% of the install. I haven't seen them going in, even on new developments that have PV on all of the houses, so I suspect there's still some disconnect there. On the battery size issue... you are correct that most off grid houses are a bit smaller battery bank than Tesla is working with, however, most grid tied houses use an enormous amount of power compared to off grid houses. Around 65kWh is probably more what you'd need to take an average house off grid. The average useage of a grid connected house here in Colorado is 750kWh per month, so 65kWh is under 2 days of storage. Z On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Darryl McMahon dar...@econogics.com wrote: The devil is in the details, but I expect the Tesla house-battery will be excellent for PV storage and micro-cogeneration. Most off-grid houses (in my limited experience) seem to have about 10 to 20 kWh of storage. The smallest Tesla car pack so far is 65 kWh. Assuming the house-batteries are based on returned car packs which no longer make the grade for vehicle use (below 85% of original capacity), that's still 55 kWh - a big step up in capacity. That gives the house-owner the option of aiming for 60-70% of full as a target, and room to store more when generation is bountiful, and still have more capacity for non-generation reserve than before. I remember the ad for Dow's Powerhouse shingles in HomePower magazine way back, but could not find a Canadian distributor - that was probably around 2006 or 2007. Grid connection was difficult to impossible at that time anyway. Put that money into solar heating and insulation instead. Darryl On 14/02/2015 4:33 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Solar shingles have been available for years; Dow's Powerhouse line since about 2005. see Article in Scientific America 2013: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/im-getting-my- roof-redone-and-heard-about-solar-shingles/ The first solar shingles were often more difficult to install than pv panels = high cost of installation. The benchmark of being competitive w. coal may well be the driving force behind improvements that have lead to significant reduction in price vs anchor holding it back. - thin film pv allowed for fast, easy installation (lower cost) - shingles made of elements more common than the indium and gallium used in the current copper, indium, gallium, selenide pv film would further lower cost Combine lowered cost w. tax incentives to install = a good thing for us common folk Tesla announced that it will make its batteries available for home energy use. Someone (Darryl?) will this also be good for residential pv installation? Tom On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 11:23:55 -0600 Chris Burck chris.bu...@gmail.com wrote: All well and good. Of course, we need them now, and would have them by now if this ridiculous benchmark of being competitive with coal weren't causing artificial inertia. -- ¡Ay, Pachamamita! ¡Eres la cosa más bonita! ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ sustainablelorgbiofuel -- Darryl McMahon Project Manager, Common Assessment and Referral for Enhanced Support Services (CARESS) ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
[Biofuel] Yale Environment 360: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option
http://e360.yale.edu/digest/solar_shingles_made_from__common_metals_offer_cheaper_energy_option/3600/ e360 digest 22 Aug 2012: Solar Shingles Made from Common Metals Offer Cheaper Energy Option U.S. scientists say that emerging photovoltaic technologies will enable the production of solar shingles made from abundantly available elements rather than rare-earth metals, an innovation that would make solar energy cheaper and more sustainable. Speaking at the annual meeting of the American Chemical Society, a team of researchers described advances in solar cells made with abundant metals, such as copper and zinc. While the market already offers solar shingles that convert the sun’s energy into electricity, producers typically must use elements that are scarce and expensive, such as indium and gallium. According to Harry A. Atwater, a physicist at the California Institute of Technology, recent tests suggest that materials like zinc phosphide and copper oxide could be capable of producing electricity at prices competitive with coal-fired power plants within two decades. With China accounting for more than 90 percent of the world’s rare-earth supplies — and prices rising sharply — companies and nations are racing to find new sources of rare earth minerals, which are used in everything from solar panels to smart phones. ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
