Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
The surest sign that there is other intelligent life out here is that fact that it hasn't stopped to see what we're up to... - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning ET is ET until they actually come down here and say Hi. when or if they do i will put some thought to it, but only then. - Original Message - From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning Allen, I never felt Kirk's reply nit-picking, I was just a bit confused. Anyway ET rarely enters my though process, unless someone brings it up. I would be surprised if ET does exist, nor will I be disappointed if I go to my grave not knowing the answer. I have no speculation if ET is peaceful or not. -- Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA E. C. wrote: Doug; your meaning was crystal clear to me, i am an English major (more precisely, was, since i never followed the career path i trained for in college). In point of fact, your response said what i tried to, but more succinctly to the point. Kudos. :-)~ Kirk; I looked back in my archived file to see if your nit-pick was justified, didn't find it so, IMHO -- but hey, to err is human, i've been called on gaffes i've made before. Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple i know has acquainted me with the fact that there's a fair number of folks who fervently believe that, indeed, the human species IS descended from cross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitors from space (there being no clearly-defined missing link in the fossil record). True or not, we humans are a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution -- and may not have a very long chapter in that history if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive, egocentric management style. Regards, ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/360 - Release Date: 6/9/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/360 - Release Date: 6/9/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Hi Jason i just read the book, and i think its all crap. sorry if i offend any believers, but i truly believe it to be slop not fit for compost. Oh I don't know, it's just paper and soy-based inks, manure worms would probably turn it into something more useful. :-) Anyway, what I said was keep the intelligent design BS off the list. Of course we can discuss anything, but we also won't welcome someone who tries to tell us global warming is just a con, or (these days) that it's good for you anyway, more carbon makes plants grow so it will help feed the hungry, or something like that. Nor someone who says GM crops have great potential to help mankind and contribute to sustainable living (ie higher yields means less land required to support a given population)... as to fears about the GM DNA in food, everything you eat has DNA in it. Nor someone who says there's no need to wash your biodiesel, just put it in and go. Nor any other benighted stuff that we've settled time and again long ago. Jay Mathews of the Washington Post wrote: The [Intelligent Design] researchers seemed to be grasping at gaps in the fossil record, rather than seeing the irresistible Darwinist logic of what scientists have discovered. But comparing their arguments to Darwin's was, I thought, a wonderful way to teach Darwin. I could not understand why important educators and scientists were spending money on lawyers to keep ID out of the classroom. In my op-ed I said we ought to let ID be explained to students so that they could understand how it defied the scientific method, just as the flaws of perpetual motion theory, I said, should be a part of a physics course and the fallacies of the Steady-State theory should be part of an astronomy course. http://tinyurl.com/6s2nk http://snipurl.com/rmjf COMMENTARY LA Times, March 30, 2005 Not Intelligent, and Surely Not Science By Michael Shermer Michael Shermer is founding publisher of Skeptic magazine and the author of Science Friction: Where the Known Meets the Unknown (Times Books, 2005). http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/view/2624/1/147/ Political Affairs Magazine - War Against Reason: The Intelligent Design Scam As always, purveyors of right-wing pseudoscience rely on ignorance and lack of education as necessary preconditions for successfully peddling their poisonous product. http://www.skepdic.com/intelligentdesign.html Intelligent Design - The Skeptic's Dictionary ID is essentially a hoax, however, since evolution is consistent with a belief in an intelligent designer of the universe. The two are not contradictory and they are not necessarily competitors. ID is proposed mainly by Christian apologists at the Discovery Institute and their allies, who feel science threatens their Biblical-based view of reality. Only in America. It's hard not to agree with Mark Malloch Brown, unless you happen to see the world through stars-and-stripes-tinted specs. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0609-08.htm Published on Friday, June 9, 2006 by OneWorld.net Bolton's Threats Raise Fears of UN Shut-Down Best Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning Kirk wrote: You might like http://www.raelianews.org/news.php?extend.128 Please keep this intelligent design BS off the list. It has been thoroughly debunked and can contribute nothing but confusion. If we now have to debunk it all over again I won't be amused. Thankyou. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner E. C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug; your meaning was crystal clear to me, i am an English major (more precisely, was, since i never followed the career path i trained for in college). In point of fact, your response said what i tried to, but more succinctly to the point. Kudos. :-)~ Kirk; I looked back in my archived file to see if your nit-pick was justified, didn't find it so, IMHO -- but hey, to err is human, i've been called on gaffes i've made before. Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple i know has acquainted me with the fact that there's a fair number of folks who fervently believe that, indeed, the human species IS descended from cross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitors from space (there being no clearly-defined missing link in the fossil record). True or not, we humans are a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution -- and may not have a very long chapter in that history if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive, egocentric management style. Regards, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- Doug Younker wrote: Kirk, The reason I bothered to post was to detail why I believe seasonal burning, while it may have apparent benefits, is not natural, as practiced by man. I would
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Doug; your meaning was crystal clear to me, i am an English major (more precisely, was, since i never followed the career path i trained for in college). In point of fact, your response said what i tried to, but more succinctly to the point. Kudos. :-)~ Kirk; I looked back in my archived file to see if your nit-pick was justified, didn't find it so, IMHO -- but hey, to err is human, i've been called on gaffes i've made before. Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple i know has acquainted me with the fact that there's a fair number of folks who fervently believe that, indeed, the human species IS descended from cross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitors from space (there being no clearly-defined missing link in the fossil record). True or not, we humans are a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution -- and may not have a very long chapter in that history if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive, egocentric management style. Regards, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk, The reason I bothered to post was to detail why I believe seasonal burning, while it may have apparent benefits, is not natural, as practiced by man. I would think the last sentence of mine; Personally I think man has interfered enough, long enough, we can't fully understand the role of fire in Earth's evolution. would have indicated my opinion man can affect the environment, thus perhaps evolution? Oh well English composition has never been my strong suit Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA Kirk McLoren wrote: Interesting that you dont see man as part of earth's evolution. Are we ETs? Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
You might like http://www.raelianews.org/news.php?extend.128"E. C." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug;your meaning was crystal clear to me, i am anEnglish major (more precisely, was, since i neverfollowed the career path i trained for in college). In point of fact, your response said what i tried to,but more succinctly to the point. Kudos. :-)~Kirk;I looked back in my archived file to see if yournit-pick was justified, didn't find it so, IMHO --but hey, to err is human, i've been called on gaffesi've made before.Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple iknow has acquainted me with the fact that there's afair number of folks who fervently believe that,indeed, the human species IS descended fromcross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitorsfrom space (there being no clearly-defined "missinglink" in the fossil record). True or not, we humansare a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution-- and may not have a very long chapter in thathistory if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive,egocentric "management style".Regards,Allen (E. Allen C.)--- Doug Younker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Kirk, The reason I bothered to post was to detail why I believe seasonal burning, while it may have apparent benefits, is not "natural", as practiced by man. I would think the last sentence of mine; "Personally I think man has interfered enough, long enough, we can't fully understand the role of fire in Earth's evolution." would have indicated my opinion man can affect the environment, thus perhaps evolution? Oh well English composition has never been my strong suit Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA Kirk McLoren wrote: Interesting that you dont see man as part of earth's evolution. Are we ETs?Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Allen, I never felt Kirk's reply nit-picking, I was just a bit confused. Anyway ET rarely enters my though process, unless someone brings it up. I would be surprised if ET does exist, nor will I be disappointed if I go to my grave not knowing the answer. I have no speculation if ET is peaceful or not. -- Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA E. C. wrote: Doug; your meaning was crystal clear to me, i am an English major (more precisely, was, since i never followed the career path i trained for in college). In point of fact, your response said what i tried to, but more succinctly to the point. Kudos. :-)~ Kirk; I looked back in my archived file to see if your nit-pick was justified, didn't find it so, IMHO -- but hey, to err is human, i've been called on gaffes i've made before. Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple i know has acquainted me with the fact that there's a fair number of folks who fervently believe that, indeed, the human species IS descended from cross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitors from space (there being no clearly-defined missing link in the fossil record). True or not, we humans are a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution -- and may not have a very long chapter in that history if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive, egocentric management style. Regards, ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Kirk wrote: You might like http://www.raelianews.org/news.php?extend.128 Please keep this intelligent design BS off the list. It has been thoroughly debunked and can contribute nothing but confusion. If we now have to debunk it all over again I won't be amused. Thankyou. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner E. C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug; your meaning was crystal clear to me, i am an English major (more precisely, was, since i never followed the career path i trained for in college). In point of fact, your response said what i tried to, but more succinctly to the point. Kudos. :-)~ Kirk; I looked back in my archived file to see if your nit-pick was justified, didn't find it so, IMHO -- but hey, to err is human, i've been called on gaffes i've made before. Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple i know has acquainted me with the fact that there's a fair number of folks who fervently believe that, indeed, the human species IS descended from cross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitors from space (there being no clearly-defined missing link in the fossil record). True or not, we humans are a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution -- and may not have a very long chapter in that history if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive, egocentric management style. Regards, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- Doug Younker wrote: Kirk, The reason I bothered to post was to detail why I believe seasonal burning, while it may have apparent benefits, is not natural, as practiced by man. I would think the last sentence of mine; Personally I think man has interfered enough, long enough, we can't fully understand the role of fire in Earth's evolution. would have indicated my opinion man can affect the environment, thus perhaps evolution? Oh well English composition has never been my strong suit Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA Kirk McLoren wrote: Interesting that you dont see man as part of earth's evolution. Are we ETs? Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Doug; your meaning was crystal clear to me, i am an English major (more precisely, was, since i never followed the career path i trained for in college). In point of fact, your response said what i tried to, but more succinctly to the point. Kudos. :-)~ Kirk; I looked back in my archived file to see if your nit-pick was justified, didn't find it so, IMHO -- but hey, to err is human, i've been called on gaffes i've made before. Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple i know has acquainted me with the fact that there's a fair number of folks who fervently believe that, indeed, the human species IS descended from cross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitors from space (there being no clearly-defined missing link in the fossil record). True or not, we humans are a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution -- and may not have a very long chapter in that history if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive, egocentric management style. If you think that, Allen, you should read this: http://snipurl.com/rm9m [Biofuel] A Framework for Understanding Global Conflict and Cooperation Best Keith Regards, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk, The reason I bothered to post was to detail why I believe seasonal burning, while it may have apparent benefits, is not natural, as practiced by man. I would think the last sentence of mine; Personally I think man has interfered enough, long enough, we can't fully understand the role of fire in Earth's evolution. would have indicated my opinion man can affect the environment, thus perhaps evolution? Oh well English composition has never been my strong suit Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA Kirk McLoren wrote: Interesting that you dont see man as part of earth's evolution. Are we ETs? Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
i just read the book, and i think its all crap. sorry if i offend any believers, but i truly believe it to be slop not fit for compost. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning Kirk wrote: You might like http://www.raelianews.org/news.php?extend.128 Please keep this intelligent design BS off the list. It has been thoroughly debunked and can contribute nothing but confusion. If we now have to debunk it all over again I won't be amused. Thankyou. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner E. C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug; your meaning was crystal clear to me, i am an English major (more precisely, was, since i never followed the career path i trained for in college). In point of fact, your response said what i tried to, but more succinctly to the point. Kudos. :-)~ Kirk; I looked back in my archived file to see if your nit-pick was justified, didn't find it so, IMHO -- but hey, to err is human, i've been called on gaffes i've made before. Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple i know has acquainted me with the fact that there's a fair number of folks who fervently believe that, indeed, the human species IS descended from cross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitors from space (there being no clearly-defined missing link in the fossil record). True or not, we humans are a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution -- and may not have a very long chapter in that history if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive, egocentric management style. Regards, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- Doug Younker wrote: Kirk, The reason I bothered to post was to detail why I believe seasonal burning, while it may have apparent benefits, is not natural, as practiced by man. I would think the last sentence of mine; Personally I think man has interfered enough, long enough, we can't fully understand the role of fire in Earth's evolution. would have indicated my opinion man can affect the environment, thus perhaps evolution? Oh well English composition has never been my strong suit Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA Kirk McLoren wrote: Interesting that you dont see man as part of earth's evolution. Are we ETs? Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/360 - Release Date: 6/9/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/360 - Release Date: 6/9/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
ET is ET until they actually come down here and say Hi. when or if they do i will put some thought to it, but only then. - Original Message - From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning Allen, I never felt Kirk's reply nit-picking, I was just a bit confused. Anyway ET rarely enters my though process, unless someone brings it up. I would be surprised if ET does exist, nor will I be disappointed if I go to my grave not knowing the answer. I have no speculation if ET is peaceful or not. -- Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA E. C. wrote: Doug; your meaning was crystal clear to me, i am an English major (more precisely, was, since i never followed the career path i trained for in college). In point of fact, your response said what i tried to, but more succinctly to the point. Kudos. :-)~ Kirk; I looked back in my archived file to see if your nit-pick was justified, didn't find it so, IMHO -- but hey, to err is human, i've been called on gaffes i've made before. Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple i know has acquainted me with the fact that there's a fair number of folks who fervently believe that, indeed, the human species IS descended from cross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitors from space (there being no clearly-defined missing link in the fossil record). True or not, we humans are a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution -- and may not have a very long chapter in that history if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive, egocentric management style. Regards, ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/360 - Release Date: 6/9/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/360 - Release Date: 6/9/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
thanks. unfortunately, here is the reply from the link: Forbidden You don't have permission to access /pubs/crossref/2000/1999JD901113.shtml on this server. Your browser currently has the FunWebProducts plugin, which is not allowed at this site. To remove this from your system, please visit: http://www.funwebproducts.com/uninstall.html LuganoSarath G [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:For those interested in some data on biomass (forest and savanna burning).. here is a paper..http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2000/1999JD901113.shtml I believe a lot more is available on the web..Sarath On 6/4/06, robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote:Evenalong the coast, however, airborne pollutants that travel over thePacific from Asia contribute to the problem. Air pollution has become a global issue.robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.newadventure.ca___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Interesting that you dont see man as part of earth's evolution. Are we ETs? KirkDoug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith Addison suggested that this discussion topic is an annual as the burning of topic, I just can't recall that, or if my following comments may have been said by others. Like Keith and others, I have observed that fire can be beneficial for the prairie, but those same observations also show that fires do not occur annually on a natural basis in all areas. I have also read that the indigenous Plains population started fires to aid in hunting Bison. I would think that that practice was in tune with the herds seasonal(annual) migration, could there be a chance that the fire use practice of the Plains people, was more about harvesting animals than is was about land stewardship?The reality is that where I live on the High Plains, that even during a drought naturally started fire is a rare event. Years perhaps decades pass before fire naturally starts the same area. I have to conclude the practice of seasonal burning both by the Indians and descendants of Europeans is more about getting things done on man's schedule not nature's. Personally I think man has interfered enough, long enough, we can't fully understand the role of fire in Earth's evolution.-- Doug, N0LKKKansas USA___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
For those interested in some data on biomass (forest and savanna burning).. here is a paper.. http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2000/1999JD901113.shtml I believe a lot more is available on the web.. Sarath On 6/4/06, robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote:Evenalong the coast, however, airborne pollutants that travel over thePacific from Asia contribute to the problem. Air pollution has become a global issue.robert luis rabelloThe Edge of JusticeAdventure for Your Mindhttp://www.newadventure.ca ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Kirk, The reason I bothered to post was to detail why I believe seasonal burning, while it may have apparent benefits, is not natural, as practiced by man. I would think the last sentence of mine; Personally I think man has interfered enough, long enough, we can't fully understand the role of fire in Earth's evolution. would have indicated my opinion man can affect the environment, thus perhaps evolution? Oh well English composition has never been my strong suit Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA Kirk McLoren wrote: Interesting that you dont see man as part of earth's evolution. Are we ETs? Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
We have a type of tree here in Canada called Jack pine. I don't know if it grows in other places. You can recognize it because the needles are about half the length of red pine and a little shorter than white pine but the really distinguishing characteristic is the cones which are smallish (3cm?) and are curved toward the tip. The cones are always tightly closed when you find them. Indeed they cannot open because it takes the heat of a forest fire to open the cones and release the seeds. Jack pine is one of the first large trees that grows on a firewaste. It shows that nature, as always, has a way of incorporating such devastation into the grand scheme of things. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Keith Addison suggested that this discussion topic is an annual as the burning of topic, I just can't recall that, or if my following comments may have been said by others. Like Keith and others, I have observed that fire can be beneficial for the prairie, but those same observations also show that fires do not occur annually on a natural basis in all areas. I have also read that the indigenous Plains population started fires to aid in hunting Bison. I would think that that practice was in tune with the herds seasonal(annual) migration, could there be a chance that the fire use practice of the Plains people, was more about harvesting animals than is was about land stewardship? The reality is that where I live on the High Plains, that even during a drought naturally started fire is a rare event. Years perhaps decades pass before fire naturally starts the same area. I have to conclude the practice of seasonal burning both by the Indians and descendants of Europeans is more about getting things done on man's schedule not nature's. Personally I think man has interfered enough, long enough, we can't fully understand the role of fire in Earth's evolution. -- Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
whooee Jason or Katie, et al; what a gigantic can-o'-worms y'all have opened there! -- none suitable for vermiculture, either. ;-) Controlled burning has been common since settlers invaded Native American's homelands (yes, they also used the practice, but on a miniscule scale). Until perhaps the last couple decades, it was considered sound science, especially by Big Lumber eager human habitat developers -- still is, in mostly-denialist quarters. Only recently has science caught up with what we all know, instinctively: Ma Nature knows best how to handle eco-systems and, in the short term (thinking in multiple millenia), can be pretty unforgiving of species (like humans) who refuse to recognise that maxim. Unfortunately, because we (humans) have become so ubiquitious, prolific, bellicose, we face the possibility of taking many, many species with us into oblivion (California Condors, Polar Bears, Amazon ( other)Frogs, Butterflies Penguins are just the tip of a melting iceberg). Earnest regards, Allen --- mark manchester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel this is wrong thinking also. The California Condor population deserves respect too. Jesse From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in fact the native Americans used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas with brush that used to have grass, The California Condor population was decimated by the brush. They could not take off near brush and hunting grounds disappeared. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Not so miniscule The native American name for where Los Angeles is now was "Valley of the smokes"Kirk"E. C." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: whooee Jason or Katie, et al;what a gigantic can-o'-worms y'all have opened there!-- none suitable for vermiculture, either. ;-)Controlled burning has been common since settlersinvaded Native American's homelands (yes, they alsoused the practice, but on a miniscule scale). Untilperhaps the last couple decades, it was considered"sound science", especially by Big Lumber eagerhuman habitat developers -- still is, inmostly-denialist quarters.Only recently has science caught up with what we allknow, instinctively: Ma Nature knows best how tohandle eco-systems and, in the short term (thinking inmultiple millenia), can be pretty unforgiving ofspecies (like humans) who refuse to recognise thatmaxim. Unfortunately, because we (humans) have becomeso ubiquitious, prolific, bellicose, we face thepossibility of taking many, many species with us intooblivion (California Condors, Polar Bears, Amazon (other)Frogs, Butterflies Penguins are just the tipof a melting iceberg). Earnest regards,Allen--- mark manchester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I feel this is wrong thinking also. The California Condor population deserves respect too. Jesse From: Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in fact the native Americans used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas with brush that used to have grass, The California Condor population was decimated by the brush. They could not take off near brush and hunting grounds disappeared.Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Kirk McLoren wrote: Not so miniscule The native American name for where Los Angeles is now was Valley of the smokes But that's not because they were engaged in wholesale burning, but because the subtropical inversion, off-gassing native plant life, petroleum offgassing, surrounding mountains and marine onflow mingled with smoke from their campfires to create naturally hazy conditions. Even if humans stopped all their industrial and automotive activities in the basin, there would be a handful of days during the year with poor air quality. While the topography, climate and chaparral flora all contribute to the issue, Los Angeles suffers from smog more often than not because WE pollute the air. Although it's better now than it was when I was a child, it's still disgusting, and the forests that used to cover the mountains around the city have been steadily dying off. (There are far fewer trees now than I remember when growing up in the area.) Even along the coast, however, airborne pollutants that travel over the Pacific from Asia contribute to the problem. Air pollution has become a global issue. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Interesting, Kirk Have you researched that name (i haven't), found that it applied because the Native Americans control-burned the forests that covered the mountain slopes? If so, to what purpose? I find that notion a bit of a stretch, in light of what i've read learned about Native Americans' deep respect -- yes, reverence, even -- for the Earth its natural inhabitants, plant and animal. Might it (the name) be more likely derived from observation of the natural phenomenon of the atmospheric inversion that made L.A. the smog capital of the world even before today's obscene paved parking lot? No disrespect for L.A., which millions regard as a vibrant, culturally-diverse progressive community of communities -- but in the context of millions of acres of managed forest lands, that valley IS pretty miniscule, even if ancient Native Americans did similarly manage timber there. Regards, Allen (E. Allen C) --- Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not so miniscule The native American name for where Los Angeles is now was Valley of the smokes Kirk E. C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: whooee Jason or Katie, et al; what a gigantic can-o'-worms y'all have opened there! -- none suitable for vermiculture, either. ;-) Controlled burning has been common since settlers invaded Native American's homelands (yes, they also used the practice, but on a miniscule scale). Until perhaps the last couple decades, it was considered sound science, especially by Big Lumber eager human habitat developers -- still is, in mostly-denialist quarters. Only recently has science caught up with what we all know, instinctively: Ma Nature knows best how to handle eco-systems and, in the short term (thinking in multiple millenia), can be pretty unforgiving of species (like humans) who refuse to recognise that maxim. Unfortunately, because we (humans) have become so ubiquitious, prolific, bellicose, we face the possibility of taking many, many species with us into oblivion (California Condors, Polar Bears, Amazon ( other)Frogs, Butterflies Penguins are just the tip of a melting iceberg). Earnest regards, Allen --- mark manchester wrote: I feel this is wrong thinking also. The California Condor population deserves respect too. Jesse From: Kirk McLoren Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in fact the native Americans used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas with brush that used to have grass, The California Condor population was decimated by the brush. They could not take off near brush and hunting grounds disappeared. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Thank you, Robert (or Benita) Your response came in (here) as I was writing mine. As usual, yours is more complete and authoritative than my poor efforts -- but we reached the same conclusions. Namaste, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: Not so miniscule The native American name for where Los Angeles is now was Valley of the smokes But that's not because they were engaged in wholesale burning, but because the subtropical inversion, off-gassing native plant life, petroleum offgassing, surrounding mountains and marine onflow mingled with smoke from their campfires to create naturally hazy conditions. Even if humans stopped all their industrial and automotive activities in the basin, there would be a handful of days during the year with poor air quality. While the topography, climate and chaparral flora all contribute to the issue, Los Angeles suffers from smog more often than not because WE pollute the air. Although it's better now than it was when I was a child, it's still disgusting, and the forests that used to cover the mountains around the city have been steadily dying off. (There are far fewer trees now than I remember when growing up in the area.) Even along the coast, however, airborne pollutants that travel over the Pacific from Asia contribute to the problem. Air pollution has become a global issue. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
E. C. wrote: Thank you, Robert (or Benita) It's robert! My sweetheart has little interest in the topics we discuss here, although she found Mike Weaver's appeal for help a few days ago VERY funny. Your response came in (here) as I was writing mine. As usual, yours is more complete and authoritative than my poor efforts -- but we reached the same conclusions. I wouldn't be so quick to judge your response. Some people have a gift in being able to express themselves concisely, with great precision, and perhaps you are able to get your point across in fewer words than I. Having written this, because I grew up in Los Angeles--a city inappropriately named--I am sensitive to air quality issues and studied the problem extensively. One advantage to this list centers upon the diversity of experience and education its members bring into the discussion. Often I feel ill-equipped to contribute to the content here, but sometimes it's nice to contribute something substantive. Namaste, Thank you, but please don't bow to me! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Hello Allen whooee Jason or Katie, et al; what a gigantic can-o'-worms y'all have opened there! -- none suitable for vermiculture, either. ;-) :-) It's been opened here before a few times, always a can of worms, but some good stuff has come out of it, good information on sustainable forestry, eg. Anyway, it's odd that you end up pointing the finger at we humans for all this generalised mayhem though you started off by ascribing the damage in this specific case to Big Lumber and developers, in other words to the corporate sector. In previous bouts it's included the government sector too. As well as the Wise Use guys blaming environmentalists - which risks a whole other can of worms, but why not. The corporate sector and we humans are not the same thing. One's sustainable, having proved it - all the traditional societies that have survived this far have proved that, and could still prove it - but the corporate sector in its current shape is not sustainable. We should be clear about the difference, it's very important, IMHO. All best Keith Controlled burning has been common since settlers invaded Native American's homelands (yes, they also used the practice, but on a miniscule scale). Until perhaps the last couple decades, it was considered sound science, especially by Big Lumber eager human habitat developers -- still is, in mostly-denialist quarters. Only recently has science caught up with what we all know, instinctively: Ma Nature knows best how to handle eco-systems and, in the short term (thinking in multiple millenia), can be pretty unforgiving of species (like humans) who refuse to recognise that maxim. Unfortunately, because we (humans) have become so ubiquitious, prolific, bellicose, we face the possibility of taking many, many species with us into oblivion (California Condors, Polar Bears, Amazon ( other)Frogs, Butterflies Penguins are just the tip of a melting iceberg). Earnest regards, Allen --- mark manchester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel this is wrong thinking also. The California Condor population deserves respect too. Jesse From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in fact the native Americans used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas with brush that used to have grass, The California Condor population was decimated by the brush. They could not take off near brush and hunting grounds disappeared. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Burning was common among many tribes. When in Billings Montana I had to laugh because in an interview with a Crow chief in the Billings Gazette, front page no less, the comment was made "Not only is it beautiful - it cleanses." A comment like that could arouse the attention of a fireman as it might be coming from a pyromaniac. Actually annual burning stops invasive brush species from taking over grasslands. It also stimulates the grasslands as I witnessed firsthand as I had burned thevegetation on the sides of my driveway to ameliorate the snowdrifts that would otherwise occur with the windbreak. Next spring the burned area grew faster and taller than the rest of the field. Also the brush that was invading the field was stopped at the fireline. Native Americans had firsthand traditional knowledge of natural stewardship. They neither tilled nor sowed those lands yet we read the 100plus year ago histories and see the devastating fires that ruined watersheds came with the wasetchu - otherwise known as "the locust people" as they ate everything including the rocks and trees. Whitepeoples have a poor record in recommending themselves as stewards. They also are very quick to tell Native Americans the time tested traditional methods are wrong as well.:)Kirk"E. C." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting, KirkHave you researched that name (i haven't), foundthat it applied because the Native Americanscontrol-burned the forests that covered the mountainslopes? If so, to what purpose? I find that notion abit of a stretch, in light of what i've read learnedabout Native Americans' deep respect -- yes,reverence, even -- for the Earth its naturalinhabitants, plant and animal.Might it (the name) be more likely derived fromobservation of the natural phenomenon of theatmospheric inversion that made L.A. "the smog capitalof the world" even before today's obscene pavedparking lot?No disrespect for L.A., which millions regard as avibrant, culturally-diverse progressive community ofcommunities -- but in the context of millions of acresof "managed" forest lands, that valley IS prettyminiscule, even if ancient Native Americans didsimilarly "manage" timber there. Regards,Allen (E. Allen C)--- Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Not so miniscule The native American name for where Los Angeles is now was "Valley of the smokes" Kirk "E. C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: whooee Jason or Katie, et al; what a gigantic can-o'-worms y'all have opened there! -- none suitable for vermiculture, either. ;-) Controlled burning has been common since settlers invaded Native American's homelands (yes, they also used the practice, but on a miniscule scale). Until perhaps the last couple decades, it was considered "sound science", especially by Big Lumber eager human habitat developers -- still is, in mostly-denialist quarters. Only recently has science caught up with what we all know, instinctively: Ma Nature knows best how to handle eco-systems and, in the short term (thinking in multiple millenia), can be pretty unforgiving of species (like humans) who refuse to recognise that maxim. Unfortunately, because we (humans) have become so ubiquitious, prolific, bellicose, we face the possibility of taking many, many species with us into oblivion (California Condors, Polar Bears, Amazon ( other)Frogs, Butterflies Penguins are just the tip of a melting iceberg). Earnest regards, Allen --- mark manchester wrote: I feel this is wrong thinking also. The California Condor population deserves respect too. JesseFrom: Kirk McLoren Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in fact the native Americans used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas with brush that used to have grass, The California Condor population was decimated by the brush. They could not take off near brush and hunting grounds disappeared.Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
there. Regards, Allen (E. Allen C) --- Kirk McLoren wrote: Not so miniscule The native American name for where Los Angeles is now was Valley of the smokes Kirk E. C. wrote: whooee Jason or Katie, et al; what a gigantic can-o'-worms y'all have opened there! -- none suitable for vermiculture, either. ;-) Controlled burning has been common since settlers invaded Native American's homelands (yes, they also used the practice, but on a miniscule scale). Until perhaps the last couple decades, it was considered sound science, especially by Big Lumber eager human habitat developers -- still is, in mostly-denialist quarters. Only recently has science caught up with what we all know, instinctively: Ma Nature knows best how to handle eco-systems and, in the short term (thinking in multiple millenia), can be pretty unforgiving of species (like humans) who refuse to recognise that maxim. Unfortunately, because we (humans) have become so ubiquitious, prolific, bellicose, we face the possibility of taking many, many species with us into oblivion (California Condors, Polar Bears, Amazon ( other)Frogs, Butterflies Penguins are just the tip of a melting iceberg). Earnest regards, Allen --- mark manchester wrote: I feel this is wrong thinking also. The California Condor population deserves respect too. Jesse From: Kirk McLoren Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in fact the native Americans used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas with brush that used to have grass, The California Condor population was decimated by the brush. They could not take off near brush and hunting grounds disappeared. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
I say let everything burn. Why should rescuers risk their lives for idiots who build their houses in wild fire areas, flood plains, 8 feet below sea level, near earthquake faults or on the coast in hurricane prone areas? Ken --- Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as i sit here watching a show on wildfires in california, i wonder- how many years did the natural fire cycle have to be stamped out to create these conditions? and why, if people are so worried about it, dont the fire departments institute controlled burns in less favorable conditions so they dont get out of hand? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Ken, That is unfair thinking. You got your crystal ball on you? People were born there, raised their families, got jobs, went to school, had grandchildren, made their lives make sense, without looking at the geography. Wow, what lack of foresight! Cast that first stone, big boy. Look around: where do YOU live? So many people on this list are self-sustaining, and it's not an easy life, actually not even an option for most people. Dammit, let there not BE this disrespect for people in their everyday lives. Jesse From: Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 13:29:40 -0700 (PDT) To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning I say let everything burn. Why should rescuers risk their lives for idiots who build their houses in wild fire areas, flood plains, 8 feet below sea level, near earthquake faults or on the coast in hurricane prone areas? Ken --- Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as i sit here watching a show on wildfires in california, i wonder- how many years did the natural fire cycle have to be stamped out to create these conditions? and why, if people are so worried about it, dont the fire departments institute controlled burns in less favorable conditions so they dont get out of hand? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
I say let everything burn. Why should rescuers risk their lives for idiots who build their houses in wild fire areas, flood plains, 8 feet below sea level, near earthquake faults or on the coast in hurricane prone areas? Or anywhere? After all Planet Earth has a broken climate, it's warming up and nowhere is safe, you must be nuts to build a house there. What if the houses are 100 years old? Best Keith Ken --- Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as i sit here watching a show on wildfires in california, i wonder- how many years did the natural fire cycle have to be stamped out to create these conditions? and why, if people are so worried about it, dont the fire departments institute controlled burns in less favorable conditions so they dont get out of hand? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in fact the native Americans used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas with brush that used to have grass, The California Condor population was decimated by the brush. They could not take off near brush and hunting grounds disappeared.KirkKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I say let everything burn. Why should rescuers risktheir lives for idiots who build their houses in wildfire areas, flood plains, 8 feet below sea level, nearearthquake faults or on the coast in hurricane proneareas?Or anywhere? After all Planet Earth has a broken climate, it's warming up and nowhere is safe, you must be nuts to build a house there.What if the houses are 100 years old?BestKeithKen--- Jason Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: as i sit here watching a show on wildfires in california, i wonder- how many years did the natural fire cycle have to be stamped out to create these conditions? and why, if people are so worried about it, dont the fire departments institute controlled burns in less favorable conditions so they dont get out of hand?___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Title: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning I feel this is wrong thinking also. The California Condor population deserves respect too. Jesse From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in fact the native Americans used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas with brush that used to have grass, The California Condor population was decimated by the brush. They could not take off near brush and hunting grounds disappeared. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] seasonal burning
as i sit here watching a show on wildfires in california, i wonder- how many years did the natural fire cycle have to be stamped out to create these conditions? and why, if people are so worried about it, dont the fire departments institute controlled burns in less favorable conditions so they dont get out of hand? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
