Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
jesus didnot exist at all period; look what happened anyway -Original Message- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Aug 2, 2005 12:45 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. OMG that's what happened to my life! God did it. Why is GOD such a devil?? lol ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
Good stewardship, responsibility, and justifications of why we can't be stewards, and be responsible seem to go together. Nobody wants to be responsible, and we hide so well behind our justifications. After all..it's a woman's body, it's my car that needs fuel, it's my building that needs the forest, it's my job that takes the clean air, we are all king babies, it's me, my needs, my wants, me, me, me. Lets take the good old drunk, who chooses to drink and ends up in a head on collision killing. He is ultimately responsible for his actions, drunk or sober. Just as we all are responsible for our actions. The alcoholic wants instant gratification and finds alcohol his tool. His choice is not one of drinking or not drinking, because that choice has been removed from his book. He has crossed the line and once crossed, the choice is removed. The alcoholic's choice is whether or not to stay sober. For a man and woman to consent in having a relationship, even the quickie instant gratification relationship. It takes two for consensual sex, the line has been crossed. That couple has consented to give their bodies. In that action, whether it be one for instant gratification or a lifetime of marriage, They are responsibility of their actions. If that act, produces a child, the consenting couple is 100% responsible to that life. Like the alcoholic who has consented to the drink, their are consequences to their action, and their choice has been limited because they made a decision for consensual sex. They chose to give their bodies. If a child results from their act; any reasoning or justification killing that life, any life, is not their choice. That choice, like the alcoholic deciding to drink, has been removed from the list of what we can do. Now, there is responsibility to the life that was created. The ultimate responsibility is to life. And Yes, they can choose to justify their need for instant gratification behind many different doors, one of which is abortion. And then their is the victims of a rape( I say victims, because if a child results, it too is a victim.) But two wrongs don't ever make a right. Instant gratification, around the world has gotten our entire community into as my mother use to say one mell of a hess. Stewardship!! yes, we need stewardship from teaching our children that abstinence of sex, abstinence of any abuse of our bodies and environment is what is called for. God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. Respect for what God has given, beginning with our bodies is the first start. The mentality of right to life begins with Stewardship. We have to instruct our children to be first stewards over their body, to honor and respect it, and teaching them then to be stewards over their environment will be much easier. In your own words: Oh wait. It's human selfishness, superiority and indifference to the rest of the world's creations that has brought us to today's fossil fuel dilemma. Today's dilemma began with generations being taught that their needs come first, I want what I want when I want it, and it's okay to justify behavior by avoiding responsibility, from the simple act of sex, to the worlds problems. We all want to sit in the victim's chair and point our fingers. Well, when you point your finger at someone or something, there are always 3 pointing back to you. So where do we start to clean it up? Do we begin behaving responsible and begin teaching tools which will help the next generation? Or do we just attach the problem with a protest for saving a snail's life, or fossil fuel issues, to avoid the bigger picture? Nobody wants to tackle the bigger picture, that begins at conception. It's so much easier to justify our behavior, to pass the buck, to blame, and point fingers. For me, the choice begins with respecting life, all life. For you see, I am no different than the murderer sitting on death row, or the drunk choosing to stay sober. From the choice Adam had, which he chose to point his finger and blame Eve, to the present discussion, Let's all grow up and begin teaching responsibility. But Baby, it don't begin when your driving a car. That is my point. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 11:13 PM Subject: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country You twist the argument Nancy, and intentionally barb it with a misconstruction of what others actually believe. I wonder what a reader is expected to construe from such an act? In the first place, there are enormous herds of people who believe in the right to life for all life. (In case you missed it, that is ALL life and all species, not just decision by short straw.) What it sounds like to me is that you are somehow willing to relegate all of your
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
Nancy, Much of what you are saying have a majority following by the world population, but you are simplifying the issues. This in the name of a God that only have a relatively small following. Fortunately, the majority of the Gods or teachings without a God, do adhere to and preach your principles. Jesus had in reality very little impact on the world. The problem is that we as humans have developed and taken over many of the Gods traditional powers. When the beliefs in Gods developed, the human race were subject to natural selection in a far larger scale and it was absolutely necessary to promote child labor. This especially if the religious leaders wanted to grew their following. If you look at deliberate safe abortion, it is a phenomena that is very very small even today. If you look at natural unsafe abortion due to malnutrition or other environmental factors and infant death due to the same factors, the numbers are several magnitudes larger. If you want children that grow up as healthy members in the world community, getting rid of legal abortion it is very inefficient and you will save many more children by a very small donation to any food aid organization. I was amazed when I read the UN statistics and found that two thirds of the children in the world have irreparable brain damages 9 month after their birth, due to malnutrition. Only one third of those are results from starvation or lack of proper food for the mother, the other two thirds are results of voluntary malnutrition of the mother, due to cultural or religious beliefs and habits. So God is not that benevolent, whoever he/she is? So I am not sure that the minority of the world that can have the luxury of seeking possessions, get the child issues so wrong. In fact the statistics tell us the opposite. Children is a possession that they can afford and nourish in a proper way. You forgot my children. The problem is often that it is often difficult to agree with the possession view of it, does not have the right moral sound, but I have to realize that it works quite good. Hakan At 10:26 AM 8/2/2005, you wrote: Good stewardship, responsibility, and justifications of why we can't be stewards, and be responsible seem to go together. Nobody wants to be responsible, and we hide so well behind our justifications. After all..it's a woman's body, it's my car that needs fuel, it's my building that needs the forest, it's my job that takes the clean air, we are all king babies, it's me, my needs, my wants, me, me, me. Lets take the good old drunk, who chooses to drink and ends up in a head on collision killing. He is ultimately responsible for his actions, drunk or sober. Just as we all are responsible for our actions. The alcoholic wants instant gratification and finds alcohol his tool. His choice is not one of drinking or not drinking, because that choice has been removed from his book. He has crossed the line and once crossed, the choice is removed. The alcoholic's choice is whether or not to stay sober. For a man and woman to consent in having a relationship, even the quickie instant gratification relationship. It takes two for consensual sex, the line has been crossed. That couple has consented to give their bodies. In that action, whether it be one for instant gratification or a lifetime of marriage, They are responsibility of their actions. If that act, produces a child, the consenting couple is 100% responsible to that life. Like the alcoholic who has consented to the drink, their are consequences to their action, and their choice has been limited because they made a decision for consensual sex. They chose to give their bodies. If a child results from their act; any reasoning or justification killing that life, any life, is not their choice. That choice, like the alcoholic deciding to drink, has been removed from the list of what we can do. Now, there is responsibility to the life that was created. The ultimate responsibility is to life. And Yes, they can choose to justify their need for instant gratification behind many different doors, one of which is abortion. And then their is the victims of a rape( I say victims, because if a child results, it too is a victim.) But two wrongs don't ever make a right. Instant gratification, around the world has gotten our entire community into as my mother use to say one mell of a hess. Stewardship!! yes, we need stewardship from teaching our children that abstinence of sex, abstinence of any abuse of our bodies and environment is what is called for. God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. Respect for what God has given, beginning with our bodies is the first start. The mentality of right to life begins with Stewardship. We have to instruct our children to be first stewards over their body, to honor and respect it, and teaching them then to be stewards over their environment
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
Greetings All, I would like things to be as black and white as you have written. Unfortunately I see many areas that are gray. At what point in time is a childs responsible for their actions. Many laws say 18 years old. What do ou do in the case of children having children? What is your solution for victims of rape? What are your solutions for people who get Aids from tainted blood. What about children of mothers infected with Aids? I believe adults should be responsible for their actions but we traditionally apply a different set of expectations to children and victims of crime. What about the woman who become pregnant from sperm donated at a sperm back? There have been some courts that have ruled that the donor has to pay child support? Is this right? Good stewardship and responsibility are good civilized values but we live with barbarians and barbaric institutions. How do you live right and deal with the mad dogs of our world? Just some ramblings, Tom Irwin From: Nancy Canning [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:26:12 -0300Subject: Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/CountryGood stewardship, responsibility, and justifications of why we can't be stewards, and be responsible seem to go together. Nobody wants to be responsible, and we hide so well behind our justifications. After all..it's a woman's body, it's my car that needs fuel, it's my building that needs the forest, it's my job that takes the clean air, we are all king babies, it's me, my needs, my wants, me, me, me.Lets take the good old drunk, who chooses to drink and ends up in a head on collision killing. He is ultimately responsible for his actions, drunk or sober. Just as we all are responsible for our actions. The alcoholic wants instant gratification and finds alcohol his tool. His choice is not one of drinking or not drinking, because that choice has been removed from his book. He has crossed the line and once crossed, the choice is removed. The alcoholic's choice is whether or not to stay sober.For a man and woman to consent in having a relationship, even the quickie instant gratification relationship. It takes two for consensual sex, the line has been crossed. That couple has consented to give their bodies. In that action, whether it be one for instant gratification or a lifetime of marriage, They are responsibility of their actions. If that act, produces a child, the consenting couple is 100% responsible to that life. Like the alcoholic who has consented to the drink, their are consequences to their action, and their choice has been limited because they made a decision for consensual sex. They chose to give their bodies. If a child results from their act; any reasoning or justification killing that life, any life, is not their choice. That choice, like the alcoholic deciding to drink, has been removed from the list of what we can do. Now, there is responsibility to the life that was created. The ultimate responsibility is to life. And Yes, they can choose to justify their need for instant gratification behind many different doors, one of which is abortion. And then their is the victims of a rape( I say victims, because if a child results, it too is a victim.) But two wrongs don't ever make a right.Instant gratification, around the world has gotten our entire community into as my mother use to say one mell of a hess. Stewardship!! yes, we need stewardship from teaching our children that abstinence of sex, abstinence of any abuse of our bodies and environment is what is called for.God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. Respect for what God has given, beginning with our bodies is the first start. The mentality of "right to life" begins with Stewardship. We have to instruct our children to be first stewards over their body, to honor and respect it, and teaching them then to be stewards over their environment will be much easier. In your own words: "Oh wait. It's human selfishness, "superiority" and indifference to the rest of the world's creations that has brought us to today's fossil fuel dilemma." Today's dilemma began with generations being taught that their needs come first, I want what I want when I want it, and it's okay to justify behavior by avoiding responsibility, from the simple act of sex, to the worlds problems. We all want to sit in the victim's chair and point our fingers. Well, when you point your finger at someone or something, there are always 3 pointing back to you.So where do we start to clean it up? Do we begin behaving responsible and begin teaching tools which will help the next generation? Or do we just attach the problem with a protest for saving a snail's life, or fossil fuel issues, to avoid the bigger picture? Nobody wants to tackle the bigger picture, that begins at conception. It's so much easier to justify our behavior, to pass the buck, to blame, and point fingers.
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
With love and compassion. Anything less will fail. -KTom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings All, I would like things to be as black and white as you have written. Unfortunately I see many areas that are gray. At what point in time is a childs responsible for their actions. Many laws say 18 years old. What do ou do in the case of children having children? What is your solution for victims of rape? What are your solutions for people who get Aids from tainted blood. What about children of mothers infected with Aids? I believe adults should be responsible for their actions but we traditionally apply a different set of expectations to children and victims of crime. What about the woman who become pregnant from sperm donated at a sperm back? There have been some courts that have ruled that the donor has to pay child support? Is this right? Good stewardship and responsibility are good civilized values but we live with barbarians and barbaric institutions. How do you live right and deal with the mad dogs of our world? Just some ramblings, Tom Irwin From: Nancy Canning [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:26:12 -0300Subject: Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/CountryGood stewardship, responsibility, and justifications of why we can't be stewards, and be responsible seem to go together. Nobody wants to be responsible, and we hide so well behind our justifications. After all..it's a woman's body, it's my car that needs fuel, it's my building that needs the forest, it's my job that takes the clean air, we are all king babies, it's me, my needs, my wants, me, me, me.Lets take the good old drunk, who chooses to drink and ends up in a head on collision killing. He is ultimately responsible for his actions, drunk or sober. Just as we all are responsible for our actions. The alcoholic wants instant gratification and finds alcohol his tool. His choice is not one of drinking or not drinking, because that choice has been removed from his book. He has crossed the line and once crossed, the choice is removed. The alcoholic's choice is whether or not to stay sober.For a man and woman to consent in having a relationship, even the quickie instant gratification relationship. It takes two for consensual sex, the line has been crossed. That couple has consented to give their bodies. In that action, whether it be one for instant gratification or a lifetime of marriage, They are responsibility of their actions. If that act, produces a child, the consenting couple is 100% responsible to that life. Like the alcoholic who has consented to the drink, their are consequences to their action, and their choice has been limited because they made a decision for consensual sex. They chose to give their bodies. If a child results from their act; any reasoning or justification killing that life, any life, is not their choice. That choice, like the alcoholic deciding to drink, has been removed from the list of what we can do. Now, there is responsibility to the life that was created. The ultimate responsibility is to life. And Yes, they can choose to justify their need for instant gratification behind many different doors, one of which is abortion. And then their is the victims of a rape( I say victims, because if a child results, it too is a victim.) But two wrongs don't ever make a right.Instant gratification, around the world has gotten our entire community into as my mother use to say one mell of a hess. Stewardship!! yes, we need stewardship from teaching our children that abstinence of sex, abstinence of any abuse of our bodies and environment is what is called for.God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. Respect for what God has given, beginning with our bodies is the first start. The mentality of "right to life" begins with Stewardship. We have to instruct our children to be first stewards over their body, to honor and respect it, and teaching them then to be stewards over their environment will be much easier. In your own words: "Oh wait. It's human selfishness, "superiority" and indifference to the rest of the world's creations that has brought us to today's fossil fuel dilemma." Today's dilemma began with generations being taught that their needs come first, I want what I want when I want it, and it's okay to justify behavior by avoiding responsibility, from the simple act of sex, to the worlds problems. We all want to sit in the victim's chair and point our fingers. Well, when you point your finger at someone or something, there are always 3 pointing back to you.So where do we start to clean it up? Do we begin behaving responsible and begin teaching tools which will help the next generation? Or do we just attach the problem with a protest for saving a snail's life, or fossil fuel issues, to avoid the bigger picture? Nobody wants to tackle the bigger picture, that begins at conception.
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
Tom, In my opinion, this speaks to a bigger issue. We already know that, by conventional thinking, "civilized" societies are supposed to be bound to the laws of the land - laws created by democratically elected governments. The idea is to protect the common good, promote harmony and prevent anarchy. In reality, governments are gigantic, lumbering bureaucracies that lag behind (and sometimes attack)progressive thinking. You would like to see things in black and white and governments try to write lawsto that effect, trusting judges to provide interpretations of those laws when it runs into the real world, which consists of infinite shades of gray.It doesn't always work. To help express my lack of confidence in our government, I remind myself and others that we are the only democracy in the world that still executes minors (one of many flaws). If any of the issues you mention make it to the courts,the damage done may continue to get worse. In my opinion the phrase "It takes a village" never had more importance in the work to directly address the problems you mention. The number of times these issues appear in our society is proportional to the level of participationof our society. In the US, I would expect these issues to appear often, since we are a country where fifty percent of eligible voters are not interested enough to show upand cast their ballot for one of the most powerful political positions in the world. Mike Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings All, I would like things to be as black and white as you have written. Unfortunately I see many areas that are gray. At what point in time is a childs responsible for their actions. Many laws say 18 years old. What do ou do in the case of children having children? What is your solution for victims of rape? What are your solutions for people who get Aids from tainted blood. What about children of mothers infected with Aids? I believe adults should be responsible for their actions but we traditionally apply a different set of expectations to children and victims of crime. What about the woman who become pregnant from sperm donated at a sperm back? There have been some courts that have ruled that the donor has to pay child support? Is this right? Good stewardship and responsibility are good civilized values but we live with barbarians and barbaric institutions. How do you live right and deal with the mad dogs of our world? Just some ramblings, Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
Hello Nancy I'm amused that you put sex in the same category as alcoholism. Good stewardship, responsibility, and justifications of why we can't be stewards, and be responsible seem to go together. Nobody wants to be responsible, and we hide so well behind our justifications. Nothing new in that. What is new is that in the last 30 years or so, and especially in the industrialised countries, there's been a steady increase in the sheer pressure of persuasion *not* to take responsibility but to cede it to our betters, in exchange for all the wonders of a consumer society, which comes with a ready-made set of justifications, and it's so effective its victims don't even notice it's there. In the US this has been accompanied by a similar crescendo of religious spin (quotes by necessity). This isn't the way people normally are, it's not even the way most people are now. After all..it's a woman's body, it's my car that needs fuel, it's my building that needs the forest, it's my job that takes the clean air, we are all king babies, it's me, my needs, my wants, me, me, me. Lets take the good old drunk, who chooses to drink and ends up in a head on collision killing. He is ultimately responsible for his actions, drunk or sober. Just as we all are responsible for our actions. The alcoholic wants instant gratification and finds alcohol his tool. His choice is not one of drinking or not drinking, because that choice has been removed from his book. He has crossed the line and once crossed, the choice is removed. The alcoholic's choice is whether or not to stay sober. For a man and woman to consent in having a relationship, even the quickie instant gratification relationship. It takes two for consensual sex, the line has been crossed. That couple has consented to give their bodies. In that action, whether it be one for instant gratification or a lifetime of marriage, They are responsibility of their actions. If that act, produces a child, the consenting couple is 100% responsible to that life. Like the alcoholic who has consented to the drink, their are consequences to their action, and their choice has been limited because they made a decision for consensual sex. They chose to give their bodies. If a child results from their act; any reasoning or justification killing that life, any life, is not their choice. That choice, like the alcoholic deciding to drink, has been removed from the list of what we can do. Now, there is responsibility to the life that was created. The ultimate responsibility is to life. And Yes, they can choose to justify their need for instant gratification behind many different doors, one of which is abortion. And then their is the victims of a rape( I say victims, because if a child results, it too is a victim.) But two wrongs don't ever make a right. Instant gratification, around the world Why do you think that? You can't extrapolate from your view of the US to the rest of the world, it just doesn't work, most people aren't like that at all. has gotten our entire community YOUR entire community maybe. into as my mother use to say one mell of a hess. Stewardship!! yes, we need stewardship from teaching our children that abstinence of sex, abstinence of any abuse of our bodies and environment is what is called for. Abstinence is not-doing, what about doing? Doctors used to think that health is the absence of disease, some of them still think that, but there's much more to health than just the absence of disease, and if you focus on eradicating disease you'll never discover what health is. You have to focus on health itself to discover that. I think you're making a similar mistake. God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. Respect for what God has given, beginning with our bodies is the first start. The mentality of right to life begins with Stewardship. We have to instruct our children to be first stewards over their body, to honor and respect it, and teaching them then to be stewards over their environment will be much easier. In your own words: Oh wait. It's human selfishness, superiority and indifference to the rest of the world's creations that has brought us to today's fossil fuel dilemma. Today's dilemma began with generations being taught that their needs come first, I want what I want when I want it, and it's okay to justify behavior by avoiding responsibility, from the simple act of sex, to the worlds problems. We all want to sit in the victim's chair and point our fingers. Well, when you point your finger at someone or something, there are always 3 pointing back to you. So where do we start to clean it up? Do we begin behaving responsible and begin teaching tools which will help the next generation? Or do we just attach the problem with a protest for saving a snail's life, or fossil fuel issues, to avoid the bigger picture? Nobody wants to tackle
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
In a message dated 8/2/05 2:27:19 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lets take the good old drunk. . .He is ultimately responsible for his actions. . .The alcoholic wants instant gratification and finds alcohol his tool. this perspective is meaningless and stupid. there are 'drunks', as you like to call them, and there are alcoholics. two very different things. for the alcoholic, 'wanting' the pleasure of alcohol has little if any bearing. rather, it's a powerful, fundamental drive that goes beyond addiction or dependence or any other type of moralistic language you might wish to apply to it. His choice is not one of drinking or not drinking, because that choice has been removed from his book. He has crossed the line and once crossed, the choice is removed. The alcoholic's choice is whether or not to stay sober. err, yes it is. it is by not drinking that one remains sober. . . . For a man and woman to consent in having a relationship, even the quickie instant gratification relationship. It takes two for consensual sex, the line has been crossed. That couple has consented to give their bodies. hmm, the 'gratification' theme again. sounds to me as though for you the issue is really about how they [gave] their bodies. less about whether 'life' resulted. yes, i put 'life' in quotes, becuase there are widely varying viewpoints on what can be defined as 'life', and what it means to respect and uphold it. Yes, they can choose to justify their need for instant gratification. . . . yet more of this 'instant gratification' stuff. why don't you drop the code and just say it straight out: you don't consider yourself part of the problem; you consider yourself morally superior. in spite of all your talk of 'we' and 'our', you're clearly drawing a line between yourself and most or all of the rest of this forum. . . .behind many different doors, one of which is abortion. when have you EVER heard ANYone use abortion to *justify* ANYthing? most certainly not here in this forum, and i for one have never, categorically never, heard anyone use abortion as a justification for any 'need'. certainly, noone has ever used abortion as justification for throwing bombs at fertility clinics, or at right to 'life' gatherings. Instant gratification, around the world has gotten. . . . oh brother, not again. just what the devil are you talking about? what 'instant gratification'? like a cool drink of water when i'm thirsty, or something? God has a good solution for sex. . . . ROFLMAO now i understand. but then, i don't. most anyone will tell you that sexual gratification is hardly 'instant'. semi-seriously, though, this isn't about god. it's about you. *you* have a 'solution for sex'. or at least you think you do (as though sex were a problem that needed solving). you'd best get over it, because you are in a very small minority. very small. in fact, even smaller than that, because rest assured there are those within your minority that secretly believe very much otherwise. as regards stewardship and responsibility, let's confine our discusion to subjects which are *demonstrably* connected to environmental degradation, based on scientific, peer-reviewed data. shall we? not ad hominem, ideological-theological tautology and sophistry. -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
Ms. Canning, I'm not going to discredit the better part of the spirit in which your words are written. Responsibility, in all its forms, is something that has never been taught fully to each generation. On the other hand, responsibility cannot be fully taught. It must be learned. And that learning comes with a combination of experience and the capacity for empathy, a wonderful gift which affords opportunity to forego physical experience and yet still obtain adequate understanding. What is unfortunate Nancy, is that you sidestep and omit much of the process that includes empathy by using your black and white declarations of absolutism. While I, for one, am not so staunch a believer that there are as many gray areas as many others would care to posit, they none the less exist. And certainly nothing is as indelibly black and white as you would purport. Were a suggestion sought on your part, one would be made that you sit in consultation with your god and let his or her spirit do its job, rather than relying upon the admonitiions and declarations of televangelists and staunch doctrinalists, especially when those doctrines circumvent the full breadth and depth of your god's spirit. That was, after all, what the Reformation and Luther was all about - re-establishing the relationship between human and spirit and dispensing with all the middle men or women. Then again, you are a creature endowed with the freedom of choice. Funny that, eh? And you will no doubt make one in your pursuit of this subject. The interesting part will be whether you choose to stone the woman at the well or adopt a more peaceful approach. Todd Swearingen .. WWJB Who Would Jesus Bomb? . Nancy Canning wrote: Good stewardship, responsibility, and justifications of why we can't be stewards, and be responsible seem to go together. Nobody wants to be responsible, and we hide so well behind our justifications. After all..it's a woman's body, it's my car that needs fuel, it's my building that needs the forest, it's my job that takes the clean air, we are all king babies, it's me, my needs, my wants, me, me, me. Lets take the good old drunk, who chooses to drink and ends up in a head on collision killing. He is ultimately responsible for his actions, drunk or sober. Just as we all are responsible for our actions. The alcoholic wants instant gratification and finds alcohol his tool. His choice is not one of drinking or not drinking, because that choice has been removed from his book. He has crossed the line and once crossed, the choice is removed. The alcoholic's choice is whether or not to stay sober. For a man and woman to consent in having a relationship, even the quickie instant gratification relationship. It takes two for consensual sex, the line has been crossed. That couple has consented to give their bodies. In that action, whether it be one for instant gratification or a lifetime of marriage, They are responsibility of their actions. If that act, produces a child, the consenting couple is 100% responsible to that life. Like the alcoholic who has consented to the drink, their are consequences to their action, and their choice has been limited because they made a decision for consensual sex. They chose to give their bodies. If a child results from their act; any reasoning or justification killing that life, any life, is not their choice. That choice, like the alcoholic deciding to drink, has been removed from the list of what we can do. Now, there is responsibility to the life that was created. The ultimate responsibility is to life. And Yes, they can choose to justify their need for instant gratification behind many different doors, one of which is abortion. And then their is the victims of a rape( I say victims, because if a child results, it too is a victim.) But two wrongs don't ever make a right. Instant gratification, around the world has gotten our entire community into as my mother use to say one mell of a hess. Stewardship!! yes, we need stewardship from teaching our children that abstinence of sex, abstinence of any abuse of our bodies and environment is what is called for. God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. Respect for what God has given, beginning with our bodies is the first start. The mentality of right to life begins with Stewardship. We have to instruct our children to be first stewards over their body, to honor and respect it, and teaching them then to be stewards over their environment will be much easier. In your own words: Oh wait. It's human selfishness, superiority and indifference to the rest of the world's creations that has brought us to today's fossil fuel dilemma. Today's dilemma began with generations being taught that their needs come first, I want what I want when I want it, and it's okay to justify behavior by
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. OMG that's what happened to my life! God did it. Why is GOD such a devil?? lol ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
So much for Go forth and multiply. --KirkJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. OMG that's what happened to my life! God did it.Why is GOD such a devil??lol___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country
God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. It looks like I got it backwards, I got married then there was no sex. I guess I am going to Hell? fred On 8/2/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. OMG that's what happened to my life! God did it. Why is GOD such a devil?? lol ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
You twist the argument Nancy, and intentionally barb it with a misconstruction of what others actually believe. I wonder what a reader is expected to construe from such an act? In the first place, there are enormous herds of people who believe in the right to life for all life. (In case you missed it, that is ALL life and all species, not just decision by short straw.) What it sounds like to me is that you are somehow willing to relegate all of your god's creations to a consecutive order of importance, or unimportance, depending upon which end of the ladder you're starting from. I wonder what he or she would think about the indifferent anhilation/extinction of one, multiple and eventually thousands of species by another, much less the eventual extermination of one specie's own self as a result of the choice to exhibit no forethought for others or anything beyond itself? Hm. What rubric might you be praying under were your Jesus to have conducted his affairs in the same manner? The First Southern Baptist Church of Me? (Perhaps the Jesus part is a bit presumptive. But then again, that camp often leaves a large, debris strewn swath in its wake, much as did you.) (If Jesus only had an Evinrude and a few sticks of dynamite.., maybe he would have had no need for miracles?) But as to a creator, or god, or whatever your preference might be, might his or her thoughts be that everything has its place and humans think wrongly that it's their right to pick and choose which species to relegate into oblivion? Or is it more probable that his or her creations weren't quite so perfect as originally thought and the intervention of humans is entirely necessary in order to straighten out all those initial mistakes? The latter is all rather doubtful. More like humans have a god complex and tend to try and reinforce their superiority (dominion) at every opportune and inopportune moment possible, in every venue, whether requisite or not. Funny that dominion thing. All rather like kicking a dead horse to prove one is still in control, when all it proves is just how little in control one really is. The horse may not kick back, but neither will it pull the wagon any further.. A lot to be said for good stewardship Secondly? I don't think there is or needs to be a secondly. Everyone would really like to live in a world where every child is wanted. Where the social and economic pressures don't exist that give women, men and even children cause to terminate pregnancies early. Everyone would like to have a peaceful existence where there are no demands placed upon them other than to enjoy the sheer beauty of being alive - no kissing up or being subservient to warlords, multi-nationals, politicians of particular design or the obnoxious manager at the local five and dime, Mal-Wart or Bob Evans. In case you missed that chapter in your biblical studies, there was a time when that was the norm. They called it Eden (at least by one biblical account) And then humans fouled the water, shat in their own bed and bespoiled all the good that they had, thinking that there was something more out there that they needed to know or somehow they could improve on what was already as good as it could ever be. That should sound familiar, as we continue to do the same thing to this very day. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, with expectation of achieving a different result. That doesn't speak well of us as a superior species. Frankly Nancy? One would tend to believe that you need to find your answers in broader places rather than being content in painting other humans with the singularly narrow brush from your black and white bucket, especially those whom you not only don't know, but who's circumstances you are apparently oblivious to in some part. Maybe when you can empathize with tens of millions of men, women and children who have precious little control over their own fate and are issued death sentences by presidential proxy - whether that be withholding family planning funds that provide condoms or initiating international and national policies of embargos, wars, protectionism, corporatism, cronyism and elitism that strip away lives at every stage of what should be a wonderful living process - maybe then you'll not be so quick to assign attributes that don't exist to others and start seeing right to life as more than just a singular issue. . And now back to our regularly scheduled biofuels programming. Oh wait. It's human selfishness, superiority and indifference to the rest of the world's creations that has brought us to today's fossil fuel dilemma. So I guess there's no need to change the channel at all Todd Swearingen . Against abortion? Get a vasectomy. ... Nancy Canning wrote: I agree with
