[biofuel] Re: Fwd: Weekend fire destroys backyard biodiesel operation
Please forward this message widely, the list below of hazards in the other message is very good. It all points to closed, and I mean really, really closed, systems- preferably ones capable of containing some pressure. Working outdoors reduces some of these risks but there's really no excuse not to use a closed fumeless processor. . Here's one other dangerous variable that most people are unaware of: water in oil when making biodiesel What's that , you say? water as a fire hazard? Here's how it happens: If you pump-mix methoxide with wet oil, there is a slight danger of localised boiling of methanol (!) IF the ratios of methoxide to wet oil is high. This inproper ratio only happens if your methoxide inlet to the pump is large compared to the oil inlet, or if any valves in the two lines (oil and methoxide) are open to the wrong ratio (ie oil mostly closed down and methoxide wide open). For example, a 3/4 piece of tubing for methoxide delivery going into a pump along with a 3/4 inch oil inlet tube is what I consider a high ratio. (I now use 3/8 inch methoxide tubing and 3/4 oil, with a valve on the methoxide tube, which is only opened slightly) What happens is this: the lye in the methoxide can produce heat when it hits water (from the oil). Normally if your ratios are correct, we're not using enough lye (and there should'nt be enough water) to cause this to raise the temperature in a whole tank of (even very wet) oil. But in a pump-mix situation with incorrect tubing ratios, there is momentarily a situation in the pump plumbing where the oil/water quantity is low and the methanol/lye quantity is high- which could get hot enough to surpass the boiling point of methanol (148F/60C). If your tank isn't a closed system (and plastic conical tanks and their 'manhole' covers are not a closed system!) then the methanol vapors will boil out of your tank, and the tank will pressurise (yet another reason for avoiding plastic as a mixing tank) which means that any normally invisible leaks will spray methanol-containing hot oil/biodiesel out of the tank. You may also notice a bunch of soap being made- there'll be odd gelling if the oil/ biodiesel/methanol makes it's way out of the tank! I don't think people are very aware of this problem. Pump mixing is absolutely, hands-down superior to stirred tank mixing- and it's far easier to build a sealed system with a pump rather than a stirred tank- but you have to have the methoxide delivery be slow, both for the safety reasons above and to keep the production of soap down. I think peopel sometimes rush to mix in their methoxide (because after that step there's no more operator involvement needed) but there are a few good reasons to slow down methoxide delivery- 1. preventing the overpressure situaiton above 2. not making a bunch of soap (which happens in the above situaion because there's too much lye for the amount of oil in the pipe) and 3. making sure you get a very, very good initial mix of reactants, which is easier to control in the pump ratios rather than hoping that it'll all mix through circulation later on. not using wet oil is of course also important. I think Tom offered some strong clues as to the how of the fire. My bet is that the boiling methanol caused frothing of the oil and boiling over the edge of an open or perhaps even vented reactor. Anyway, here are some of the things that have been pointed out as potential fire problems in the past. Doesn't hurt to place them back in the public view once again in a composite manner. --- Open reactor and poor ventilation in the presence of an ignition source. Ignition sources can be: a) Using combustible fuels as a direct heat source (ie propane, natural gas, wvo, wood, etc.), rather than a heat exchange system where the flame is far removed from the processing area. b) Open electric motor housings, rather than TEFC motors (at minimum). c) Disconnecting an electrical appliance by pulling out the wall plug, rather than using enclosed switches. d) A match or lighter (open flame, Part Dieu). Other fire sources can be over taxed pumps and motors in close proximity to combustible materials (garage walls, plastic barrels, almost anything), oversized breakers and/or fuses, undersized wiring (such as 14/2 Romex) for higher amperage draws. And there always is the danger of spontaneous combustion in the presence of oily rags, most predominant when working with drying oils such as hemp and linseed. This threat decreases as the saturation of the oil/fat increases. There are probably a dozen other hazards that don't come readily to mind at the moment. But these are the basics. mark adds: It's easy enough for me to suggest working outdoors since I live in California and it's fairly warm all the time. If you are indoors and are using a ventilation system, please do some research about ventilation of
[biofuel] Re: Fwd: Weekend fire destroys backyard biodiesel operation
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot to be said for having a closed system. Would have saved the building. Sometimes stuff happens. Most of the time it don't. But now wouldn't be the time to pick snits. Sorry he suffered the loss and glad the burns are only superficial. Todd Swearingen People should always understand that your working with explosive gasses and combustable fuels and that stray sparks and leaking gasses will find each other at most unfortunate times!: BENSON, Minn. - An explosion and fire rocked a plant where corn is turned into ethanol Wednesday, killing one worker and injuring another man, officials said. Robert Olson, 20, was working near a storage tank filled with 40,000 gallons of corn mash when it exploded at Chippewa Valley Ethanol Co., authorities said. The tank was thrown about 75 feet and landed on a tanker truck filled with ethanol, causing the fire. Firefighters from 11 surrounding towns fought the blaze and pumped water on rail cars to keep them cool, Sheriff Kenneth Hanson said. Troy Leonard was taken to a hospital with acid burns, according to a hospital spokesman. He was reported in fair condition. Authorities did not know what caused the storage tank to explode. The blast occurred in the part of the plant where corn is turned into mash, which is later processed into ethanol. About 40 people work at the plant, which also produces alcohol used for vodka and products such as hair spray and mouthwash. Olson was a contractor with Lundin Construction of Hanley Falls. Gary Klemm, who works at a nearby plant, said he saw the explosion demolish the storage tank. I was coming down the road and I saw the top blow right off, Klemm said. Benson is about 120 miles northwest of Minneapolis. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news? tmpl=storyu=/ap/20031024/ap_on_re_us/ethanol_plant_fire_2 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fwd: Weekend fire destroys backyard biodiesel operation
k5farms wrote: --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot to be said for having a closed system. Would have saved the building. Sometimes stuff happens. Most of the time it don't. But now wouldn't be the time to pick snits. Good time for damage control though, before it gets all twisted and out of hand. Sorry he suffered the loss and glad the burns are only superficial. Very, on both counts. Todd Swearingen People should always understand that your working with explosive gasses and combustable fuels and that stray sparks and leaking gasses will find each other at most unfortunate times!: Sure, but still, it shouldn't have happened. If you're working with an open-tank processor (don't!) and you haven't made absolutely sure that there's no opportunity for sparks, stray or otherwise, then you're asking for trouble. Anyway, this wasn't a case of leaking gases, it was a runaway disaster - the oil should not have been allowed to get so hot. Don't exaggerate it, these fuels aren't very combustible - throw a lighted match into either biodiesel or WVO and it sputters and goes out. I'd add that biofuellers have an obligation to be safe, not just for their own sakes - the homebrew scene is vulnerable to attack by industry and by regulators, an accident opens the door for them, and judging by past experience they might not be too scrupulous about it. Everyone posts plenty of safety warnings, and this is small-scale stuff, easy to control, not to be compared with the kind of industrial operation that uses 40,000-gallon tanks. If making your own biodiesel is now to be branded dangerous on this account, then we'll have to stop housewives making french-fries too - everyone knows if you let the oil get too hot it'll catch fire and could burn your house down and kill your family. It doesn't stop anyone doing it, there's no onerous regulation to wade through, yet vanishingly few people burn their houses down and kill their families this way - how many french fries per accident? It's a valid comparison, even without the methanol - it's not the methanol that caused this accident, it's that the oil was allowed to get too hot. Best Keith BENSON, Minn. - An explosion and fire rocked a plant where corn is turned into ethanol Wednesday, killing one worker and injuring another man, officials said. Robert Olson, 20, was working near a storage tank filled with 40,000 gallons of corn mash when it exploded at Chippewa Valley Ethanol Co., snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fwd: Weekend fire destroys backyard biodiesel operation
Hi Todd Keith, I think Tom offered some strong clues as to the how of the fire. My bet is that the boiling methanol caused frothing of the oil and boiling over the edge of an open or perhaps even vented reactor. Don't know what Tom used as a process heat source. But it had to be something of reasonably high output to heat the oil past the boiling temp of MeOH. He was making Babington burners, I'm don't know if he used them for biodiesel process heat. If it were strictly alcohol fumes from the boil that reached an ignition source there would have been an explosion first and then fire. A fireball of any proportion is not a pretty site, even if just in one's imagination. No it's not! Anyway, here are some of the things that have been pointed out as potential fire problems in the past. Doesn't hurt to place them back in the public view once again in a composite manner. --- Open reactor and poor ventilation in the presence of an ignition source. Ignition sources can be: a) Using combustible fuels as a direct heat source (ie propane, natural gas, wvo, wood, etc.), rather than a heat exchange system where the flame is far removed from the processing area. b) Open electric motor housings, rather than TEFC motors (at minimum). c) Disconnecting an electrical appliance by pulling out the wall plug, rather than using enclosed switches. d) A match or lighter (open flame, Part Dieu). Other fire sources can be over taxed pumps and motors in close proximity to combustible materials (garage walls, plastic barrels, almost anything), oversized breakers and/or fuses, undersized wiring (such as 14/2 Romex) for higher amperage draws. And there always is the danger of spontaneous combustion in the presence of oily rags, most predominant when working with drying oils such as hemp and linseed. This threat decreases as the saturation of the oil/fat increases. There are probably a dozen other hazards that don't come readily to mind at the moment. But these are the basics. Thanks very much, good compilation, and indeed it doesn't hurt. regards Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 8:58 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Fwd: Weekend fire destroys backyard biodiesel operation k5farms wrote: --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot to be said for having a closed system. Would have saved the building. Sometimes stuff happens. Most of the time it don't. But now wouldn't be the time to pick snits. Good time for damage control though, before it gets all twisted and out of hand. Sorry he suffered the loss and glad the burns are only superficial. Very, on both counts. Todd Swearingen People should always understand that your working with explosive gasses and combustable fuels and that stray sparks and leaking gasses will find each other at most unfortunate times!: Sure, but still, it shouldn't have happened. If you're working with an open-tank processor (don't!) and you haven't made absolutely sure that there's no opportunity for sparks, stray or otherwise, then you're asking for trouble. Anyway, this wasn't a case of leaking gases, it was a runaway disaster - the oil should not have been allowed to get so hot. Don't exaggerate it, these fuels aren't very combustible - throw a lighted match into either biodiesel or WVO and it sputters and goes out. I'd add that biofuellers have an obligation to be safe, not just for their own sakes - the homebrew scene is vulnerable to attack by industry and by regulators, an accident opens the door for them, and judging by past experience they might not be too scrupulous about it. Everyone posts plenty of safety warnings, and this is small-scale stuff, easy to control, not to be compared with the kind of industrial operation that uses 40,000-gallon tanks. If making your own biodiesel is now to be branded dangerous on this account, then we'll have to stop housewives making french-fries too - everyone knows if you let the oil get too hot it'll catch fire and could burn your house down and kill your family. It doesn't stop anyone doing it, there's no onerous regulation to wade through, yet vanishingly few people burn their houses down and kill their families this way - how many french fries per accident? It's a valid comparison, even without the methanol - it's not the methanol that caused this accident, it's that the oil was allowed to get too hot. Best Keith BENSON, Minn. - An explosion and fire rocked a plant where corn is turned into ethanol Wednesday, killing one worker and injuring another man, officials said. Robert Olson, 20, was working near a storage tank filled with 40,000 gallons of corn mash when it exploded at Chippewa Valley Ethanol Co., snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
